sycasey said:

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chazzed said:

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I don't like all the HRs this year but this game is too entertaining.

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It's like that old arcade game with the robot baseball players.

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It's like college baseball before they reined in the bats

If this comes down to McCarthy and Giles there won't be an off day

TheSouseFamily said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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sycasey said:

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Playoff Kershaw has returned.

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Still 3-0 this post-season despite:

1). Joke baseball / inability to throw a slider
2) worst strike zone I've ever seen
3) all normal rules of baseball being thrown out the window.

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I'm not sure what #3 is referring to, but the plate umpire is positively Angel Hernandezian with the strikes he's calling.

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Do you know what I mean with #3 now?

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No

Verlander better throw a complete game or I'm not sure how the Astros can close a game in L.A.

BerlinerBaer said:

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Glad I started watching baseball again to catch this pretty amazing series. These games are wild.

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Incredible series so far. Tonight's game is an instant classic, though it means I have zero chance of getting laid tonight.

By the same token, Dave Roberts ain't pulling Rich Hill after 5.

Unfortunately for me Verlander > Hill. Still... gotta find a way to get it done.

Fantastic series so far. Tonight was so draining.

Walks are turning out to be the deciding factor.

This is what I love about YouTube TV. It automatically records the entirety of a game, no matter how long...

Clayton Kershaw, still setting records.

https://sports.yahoo.com/clayton-kershaw-sets-postseason-record-home-runs-allowed-024333216.html

It's not a Dodger postseason without that classic shot of Kershaw holding his head in the dugout, wondering just what went wrong.

I love to see the dodgers lose.

sonofabear51 said:

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I love to see the dodgers lose.

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Then you've had a rough year, haven't you? Hope last night's game gives you some much-needed comfort, solace and peace of mind.

And sure, get in your yuks about Kershaw (who remains undefeated this post-season). But there's obviously something up with the baseball which, as the data shows, is making it impossible to throw a decent slider. Both teams seem to be in violent agreement about that.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/29/world-series-baseballs-leather-justin-verlander-yu-darvish-ken-giles-kenley-jansen

TheSouseFamily said:

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And sure, get in your yuks about Kershaw (who remains undefeated this post-season).

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What's his postseason ERA these days?

It is nice for him that the Dodger offense bailed him out during his bad starts this year.

At least he should be available to pitch game 7 if needed!

Anyway, Kershaw ribbing aside, that is interesting about the ball being different and hearing from multiple pitchers about it. It would help explain the crazy home run derby games we've been seeing.

If this baseball decision is a conscious one by MLB and not just process/lot/QC variation, it puts baseball in WWF territory

sycasey said:

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Anyway, Kershaw ribbing aside, that is interesting about the ball being different and hearing from multiple pitchers about it. It would help explain the crazy home run derby games we've been seeing.

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It's also changing how guys pitch and even who pitches. If you basically remove the slider from the game, it changes everything. That's Kershaw's best pitch. Darvish too. The Stros won't even pitch Ken Giles now because he's a slider guy. Guys like Rich Hill and Alex Wood don't throw sliders and haven't suffered the same HR boon as everyone else. All of the damage off Verlander has been on sliders. Pitchers are just gonna have to stop using it, which means both teams are playing a totally different game. It's bizarre and unfortunate that the WS has to be played like this, no matter who wins. .

Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

Yogi Bear said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

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I'd say the "should have" for Game 5 is that the Dodger offense put up double-digit runs in a game with their ace on the mound, and he couldn't hold the lead, again turning it over to the bullpen far too early.

sycasey said:

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Anyway, Kershaw ribbing aside, that is interesting about the ball being different and hearing from multiple pitchers about it. It would help explain the crazy home run derby games we've been seeing.

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This is seems to go to the integrity of the game when you introduce different baseballs for the World Series, and especially if they are slicker. Have they always done this?

sycasey said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

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I'd say the "should have" for Game 5 is that the Dodger offense put up double-digit runs in a game with their ace on the mound, and he couldn't hold the lead, again turning it over to the bullpen far too early.

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The Astros deserve credit for making pitchers go deep into counts. Kershaw was over 90 pitches when he gave up the 3 run homer. I would contend though that even after giving up the home run, they should have left him in. At this point, there is nothing to save him for. The most he could possibly give is maybe an inning or two in Game 7 if they are out of pitchers. I would have left him in and let him go to 110-120 pitches, saved my pen some work, and lived with the consequences.

My opinion is that the Dodgers have been in a slippery slope with their pen starting in Game 2 when they pulled Hill too early in the game. The upside to that is that he should have plenty of energy for Game 6 if he is on his game. But home field advantage or not, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having to beat Verlander in a pitcher's park to extend the series. I think the Dodgers are going to have to hope to get to him early and for Hill to go at least 6 and preferably 7 to win the Series.

My feeling going into Game 5 is that the winner of that game would win the Series.

Yogi Bear said:

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My opinion is that the Dodgers have been in a slippery slope with their pen starting in Game 2 when they pulled Hill too early in the game.

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Agree. This was the original mistake. They had literally planned to lift their starter after four innings, no matter what.

Some have argued that this was defensible, and that the Dodgers' failure to win that game was bad luck: they got to the 9th inning with a lead and Jansen on the mound, and he happened to give up a home run. Sure, that's defensible for that one game. The problem is that you don't know when you'll have another game where you need a long bullpen stint. One of your other starters could get blown up early (like Darvish did), or someone could get hurt. If that happens you are now in rough shape, because these relievers aren't used to going multiple innings many days in a row.

That's why you shouldn't create a high-stress situation for your bullpen unless it's do-or-die desperation time. Game 2 with a 1-0 lead in the series is not that.

sycasey said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Kershaw and the bullpen are killing us. We should have won games 2 and 5 and already have the championship.
Kershaw has always sucked in the playoffs so you almost expect that. It would be a miracle if the bullpen quit getting behind in the count then throwing pitches right down the middle of the plate. How flipping hard is it to work on the edges of the plate, get ahead in the count or maybe even pitch inside so the Astros hitters stop being so comfortable in the box.

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Are you somehow more entitled to not have your bullpen give up runs than the Astros are, who could make the same complaint about their pen? The Dodgers never led the game for more than a half inning once the game was tied at 4, so I'm not seeing where they "should have" won Game 5. They certainly had their chance once they came back in the ninth, but Jansen seems to be less effective once he gets into the second inning of an appearance.

You should really be directing your ire towards Roberts, who has used too many pitchers and too early.

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I'd say the "should have" for Game 5 is that the Dodger offense put up double-digit runs in a game with their ace on the mound, and he couldn't hold the lead, again turning it over to the bullpen far too early.

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I would agree with that EXCEPT that the ace the Dodgers had on the mound is a regular season ace, and a well established post-season choke artist. If the Astros had failed to come back on Kershaw, then they would be the ones saying they should have won, because they had the advantage of post-season Kershaw on the hill.

I learned my lesson 3 years ago, I stopped watching game 1 of the 2014 St.L-LA NLDS when the Dodgers were up 6-1 in LA after 5 innings with Kershaw on the hill. Yeah, the Dodgers should win that game, the Dodgers will win that game, what's the point of watching? Apparently, the point is to watch Kershaw try to pitch with both hands around his throat. Hard to do, and he doesn't do it successfully.

If you're going to say the Dodgers should have won, it is because Roberts should have been managing his pen better throughout the post-season so that they wouldn't be totally burned out from top to bottom right now. Then even with Choker Kershaw on the hill, the Dodgers would have won by virtue of having a decent bullpen when the Astros' pen is shot. But that ship sailed at least back in game 2, now we have both teams with no pen, hence a 13-12 game. At least it is interesting.

Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

sycasey said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

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Sometimes in people's glee to rip Kershaw, they forget all about Game 1 of the 2010 Series.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=301027126

Yogi Bear said:

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sycasey said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

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Sometimes in people's glee to rip Kershaw, they forget all about Game 1 of the 2010 Series.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=301027126

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I didn't forget it. I just look at the whole picture.

Postseason ERA:

Tim Lincecum - 2.40
Clayton Kershaw - 4.50

sycasey said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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sycasey said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

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Sometimes in people's glee to rip Kershaw, they forget all about Game 1 of the 2010 Series.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=301027126

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I didn't forget it. I just look at the whole picture.

Postseason ERA:

Tim Lincecum - 2.40
Clayton Kershaw - 4.50

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In the 2017 postseason:

10/6 vs ARI 6.1 IP 4 ER
10/14 vs CHI 5.0 IP 2 ER
10/19 vs CHI 6.0 IP 1 ER
10/24 vs HOU 7.0 IP 1 ER
10/29 vs HOU 4.2 IP 6 ER

First start wasn't great and last night wasn't either, but other 3 have been good. And I maintain that in a game where you have a 3 run lead, they were better off getting 1 1/3 more innings from Kershaw and trusting him to hold the lead than they were in trusting Maeda, who promptly gave up a 3 run HR. But managers seem to want to micromanage pitchers now.

sycasey said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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Giants think the ball is the same as it ever was.

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All I know is that when our ace pitchers got to the postseason (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner), they all did great. Not sure what is going on with this Kershaw fellow.

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All I know is what you said and Giants didn't hit for **** this year, including the back in Vogue cement mixer sliders.

I don't blame Roberts for burning the bullpen. I didn't think Rich Hill was pitching that well in game 2... the leadoff man was seemingly getting on every inning. I think in retrospect that performance looks better than it was, but IIRC those were all stress innings. Roberts managed it so Jansen was closing the game in the 9th facing the bottom of the order. Jansen has to close that game like he's supposed to, and everything is good.

What really burned the bullpen was Darvish going 1.1 innings. We burned the bullpen in that game and lost the game.

And Kershaw needs just to be decent and not give up a 4 run lead and then not put two on w/ 2-out walks w/ a 3-run lead. That said, Kershaw looks diminished this whole year. His stuff just doesn't seem to be dominant like it used to be... maybe he's a better pitcher now and so he can pitch around that, but throw in an injury and his past performance in playoffs, and I was expecting a game sorta like this but hoping it wouldn't happen.

The whole World Series ball thing is very interesting. It's not like Kershaw and the Dodgers bullpen are the only ones getting touched up. Nobody can seem to get outs (but I fear Verlander will). Well, Alex Wood was really good in his start.

And what was up w/ the strike zone last night?

rathokan said:

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I don't blame Roberts for burning the bullpen. I didn't think Rich Hill was pitching that well in game 2... the leadoff man was seemingly getting on every inning. I think in retrospect that performance looks better than it was, but IIRC those were all stress innings.

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Yeah, but he was only at 60 pitches thrown with 1 run on the board. You don't think it's at least worth running him out there for the 5th to see what he can do?

rathokan said:

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I don't blame Roberts for burning the bullpen. I didn't think Rich Hill was pitching that well in game 2... the leadoff man was seemingly getting on every inning. I think in retrospect that performance looks better than it was, but IIRC those were all stress innings. Roberts managed it so Jansen was closing the game in the 9th facing the bottom of the order. Jansen has to close that game like he's supposed to, and everything is good.

What really burned the bullpen was Darvish going 1.1 innings. We burned the bullpen in that game and lost the game.

And Kershaw needs just to be decent and not give up a 4 run lead and then not put two on w/ 2-out walks w/ a 3-run lead. That said, Kershaw looks diminished this whole year. His stuff just doesn't seem to be dominant like it used to be... maybe he's a better pitcher now and so he can pitch around that, but throw in an injury and his past performance in playoffs, and I was expecting a game sorta like this but hoping it wouldn't happen.

The whole World Series ball thing is very interesting. It's not like Kershaw and the Dodgers bullpen are the only ones getting touched up. Nobody can seem to get outs (but I fear Verlander will). Well, Alex Wood was really good in his start.

And what was up w/ the strike zone last night?

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Fortunately. Rich Hill throws very few sliders (3%) and Alex Wood doesn't throw one at all (interesting that he's been one of the more effective pitchers). But guys like Darvish (25%) and Kershaw (30%) throw a ton of them. Almost makes me wonder if the Dodgers should roll out Wood instead of Darvish in a potential game 7 if the balls still prevent pitchers from throwing decent sliders.

Update on Slidergate with some results from last night's game's starters:

"Dallas Keuchel, Houston's starter on Sunday, typically has an excellent slider. During the regular season, he threw it 18% of the time. Some 61 percent of his regular season sliders ended up as strikes, and batters hit just .167 against it, with three home runs.

On Sunday, though, Keuchel could barely get it over the plate. The 2015 Cy Young winner threw just seven of his 17 sliders for strikes41%and they didn't behave nearly as they usually do. While this season, on average, he's thrown the pitch with an average of 6.39 inches of horizontal break and 1.19 of vertical break, on Sunday it was just 4.92 inches and 0.51 inches. The two-run single that Logan Forsythe lined to left in the top of the first came on an 81 MPH slider; Keuchel lasted just 3.2 innings, allowing four runs."

"Keuchel's counterpart, Clayton Kershaw, also throws a superb slider. During the regular season, he threw it even more than Keuchel (34% of the time) with even better command. It produced a strike 68.3% of the time. While Kershaw's sliders on Sunday broke more or less as they usually doperhaps his skill is just so greathe couldn't find the plate with them with anything near his usual consistency. Just 20 of his 39 attempts were strikes51%. You probably don't have to guess the nature of the pitch that Yuli Gurriel drove deep to left, in the bottom of the fourth, to ensure that a 4 run lead that not long before seemed insurmountable completely evaporated. It was a slider, a pitch with which he'd allowed just three homers all season long. And Kershaw's 94th and last pitch of the night, which he buried in the dirt to walk Alex Bregman with two outs in the fifth? A slider."

https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/30/houston-astros-los-angeles-dodgers-game-5-world-series-slick-baseball

sycasey said:

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rathokan said:

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I don't blame Roberts for burning the bullpen. I didn't think Rich Hill was pitching that well in game 2... the leadoff man was seemingly getting on every inning. I think in retrospect that performance looks better than it was, but IIRC those were all stress innings.

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Yeah, but he was only at 60 pitches thrown with 1 run on the board. You don't think it's at least worth running him out there for the 5th to see what he can do?

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Oh, I was surprised by the move, and I probably would've left Hill out there, but I also watching the game with a feeling of impending doom, so I could see why Roberts gave him the hook.

If Rich hill is going well tomorrow, I don't expect to see him leave the game unless there's a blister on his finger the size of his face.

My other point w/ taxing the bullpen is that Hill had gone four and there was an off day the next day. I think Maeda went 2+, so the rest of the bullpen really wasn't that taxed. I think what really wore out the bullpen was Darvish's disaster only going 1.1 and having to come back the next day. Kershaw had to go more than 4.2... get at least through 6.