OT: Colorado shooting

23,883 Views | 141 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by NVGolfingBear
dimitrig
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GB54;841912966 said:

You don't have to trust anyone. Your choices are to flee, hide, offer resistance or die. I suspect your questions wouldn't be relevant unless you were armed. That might change your calculus. Otherwise your choices are flee, hide or die but your odds might have gotten better through no action of your own.



Since you think it would help, let's say I am armed. Let's say 20% of the audience is. You think that would be good as everyone starts shooting everyone else?


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people on these boards actually went to Cal. Think through all of the scenarios. There's only *one* outcome that is better and *many* that are worse.
StillNoStanfurdium
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dimitrig;841913031 said:

Since you think it would help, let's say I am armed. Let's say 20% of the audience is. You think that would be good as everyone starts shooting everyone else?


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people on these boards actually went to Cal. Think through all of the scenarios. There's only *one* outcome that is better and *many* that are worse.

I don't see why you consider it likely that when one armed gunman starts shooting up a crowd that 20 people pop up and randomly fire amongst themselves.
GB54
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dimitrig;841913031 said:

Since you think it would help, let's say I am armed. Let's say 20% of the audience is. You think that would be good as everyone starts shooting everyone else?


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people on these boards actually went to Cal. Think through all of the scenarios. There's only *one* outcome that is better and *many* that are worse.


I suppose if you keep inventing scenarios one will favor you but so far I'm not impressed . From your responses I would agree that you having a gun would not have made a substantive difference.
freshfunk
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pingpong2;841912875 said:

Here's an interesting comparison. In Switzerland, military service is compulsory. After you're done, though, you are required to keep your military issued SIG 550 (a REAL assault rifle, mind you). With all these military assault rifles floating around in Switzerland, you'd expect gun violence to be sky high. However, they had a grand total of 24 gun murders...in one year...in the entire country. By comparison, when Chicago had a gun ban in effect, they routinely accumulated north of 300 shooting deaths per year. Last year, 2217 people (or a little over 6 per day) were shot in Chicago.

Above all else, culture is absolutely a much larger reason for why there is more gun violence here than in other countries. Take away the guns, like Britain has, and people will find other ways to kill people. And if you think guns are the easiest way to rack up a high body count, I'd argue that bombs are MUCH more effective if that's your goal.


My conclusion is that cultures like Switzerland are able to allow their citizens to bear arms while America's cannot. I'm not saying we're necessarily different or that it should be banned forever. It's almost like when someone misbehaves with something... You take that thing away.

While people will find other ways, I would argue that those other ways are either lower volume / more difficult (eg knives) or more complicated / may result in their own death (eg bomb construction).
StillNoStanfurdium
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freshfunk;841913108 said:

My conclusion is that cultures like Switzerland are able to allow their citizens to bear arms while America's cannot. I'm not saying we're necessarily different or that it should be banned forever. It's almost like when someone misbehaves with something... You take that thing away.

While people will find other ways, I would argue that those other ways are either lower volume / more difficult (eg knives) or more complicated / may result in their own death (eg bomb construction).

Because it's so difficult to illegally procure firearms now.
calumnus
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dimitrig;841913031 said:

Since you think it would help, let's say I am armed. Let's say 20% of the audience is. You think that would be good as everyone starts shooting everyone else?


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people on these boards actually went to Cal. Think through all of the scenarios. There's only *one* outcome that is better and *many* that are worse.


Archie Bunker on gun control: LINK
high calibear
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dimitrig;841912889 said:

Somehow I think the idea of another idiot shooting in the chaos sounds like a bad idea. You'd probably kill someone on accident before being killed by the police. The problem with being a vigilante is how does anyone know who to trust? If you're not wearing a uniform and you are shooting then why shouldn't someone else in the audience shoot you?


not to nit-pick, but use of the word "vigilante" in the scenario being discussed is ridiculous. you think that defending oneself or others during a murderous attack is vigilantism?
dimitrig
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BearLineman;841913034 said:

Funny how I dont want any of you to be armed in this instance but I would love to have a weapon to engage the suspect. Truth is...I wouldnt trust any of you with a firearm trying to save me. I have a small circle of people I do trust but only because I know their capability and decision making ability. This isnt a slam on anyone because you wouldnt trust me either. People have trouble putting their lives in some elses hands. Id like a well trained combat veteran who has killed in the past and doesnt mind taking lives to pull out a pistol and go to work on the guy but its not realistic.




Everyone wants their own weapon, but doesn't trust everyone else with one. Therefore, the best scenario is to have a trained professional - let's call him a policeman - deal with it and leave your guns at home.
dimitrig
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StillNoStanfurdium;841913080 said:

I don't see why you consider it likely that when one armed gunman starts shooting up a crowd that 20 people pop up and randomly fire amongst themselves.



What scenario do you envision? That all 20 people are going to correctly identify the gunman as alone and hostile and the other 19 people pulling out firearms as friendly? How likely is that?


How intelligent is the average person? Do you really want a crowd of people with average intelligence armed in such a situation? I don't.
GivemTheAxe
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Tree Cutter;841912090 said:

Good thing Cinemark Theater had it's 'No Guns' signs posted in the front, unfortunately they weren't posted on the Emergency Exit door that Holmes used to enter the theater.

Very :sarc:


In the end, Holmes will likely to be found mentally deficient to stand trail, and will be another tale of a mentally unstable individual that slipped through the cracks of metal health experts, school councilors and was deemed merely strange by his peers.

I would like to see the media black him out. Cover what happened. But no stories about him, his back ground, his motives or thoughts. Cover the victims who are more worthy of coverage. This would deny him what he wants attention.
BearyWhite
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calumnus;841913164 said:

Archie Bunker on gun control: LINK

I also remember him having an exchange like this:

Gloria: Daddy, did you know that there were [x] people killed by guns in the city this year alone?

Archie: Would it make you feel better little girl if they was pushed outta windas?
dimitrig
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BearLineman;841913637 said:

Exactly, I am a police officer and I carry my firearm off duty. Trust me, the average police officer is not a professional with a firearm by any means. Let me put it so you understand... - they are, let's call them not proficient - deal with it and my guns in my pockets.



Having a badge and a uniform and the authority that comes with it is important - not how well they can handle a firearm.

Likewise, some yahoo with a gun in the audience might be an expert marksman, but he needs to leave his gun at home, because no one can recognize him for what he is or what he stands for.

Trust me, I have a problem respecting authority and yet I don't want to see citizens taking the law into their own hands in an instance like this one (in public). Someone breaking into your house? Go for it.

I will work hard to make sure I relieve you of your guns if you insist on carrying them out to public events. I am sure you will work equally hard to keep that right, although I am not sure I understand *why* when we pay professionals to fill that role.

Are you honestly saying that your peers are incompetent in an emergency? Convince me why I would want to fund their/your huge pensions then?!
BearyWhite
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BearLineman;841913763 said:

Really? Do you think if a police officer walked into that theater during the shooting the suspect would immediately comply because of the badge and uniform? Ok..LOL.
.. or that the same person pulling their firearm would cause a problem in that theater because no one 'recognized' them being a cop, as dimitrig seems concerned about? I think it would be immediately apparent who the good guy was. (and I'm not even in favor of the 'if only the audience had been packing' argument)
pingpong2
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BearyWhite;841913768 said:

.. or that the same person pulling their firearm would cause a problem in that theater because no one 'recognized' them being a cop, as dimitrig seems concerned about? I think it would be immediately apparent who the good guy was. (and I'm not even in favor of the 'if only the audience had been packing' argument)


If you're basing it off of the uniform and badge, does that mean off-duty and plainclothes officers should not be carrying at all times? Because how would people recognize who they are?
StillNoStanfurdium
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dimitrig;841913355 said:

What scenario do you envision? That all 20 people are going to correctly identify the gunman as alone and hostile and the other 19 people pulling out firearms as friendly? How likely is that?


How intelligent is the average person? Do you really want a crowd of people with average intelligence armed in such a situation? I don't.

If someone opens fire on a group of people in a movie theater indiscriminately, and another person draws a weapon and returns fire only at the person initially shooting, I fail to see where the confusion would arise. And even if there was the slightest bit of hesitation, the presence of return fire would certainly give a gunman pause or an obstacle in his goal of shooting at group of people unchecked.

Even if we assume that in a crowd of 50 that the person returning fire inadvertently shoots another innocent, I'd still argue that if the gunman ceases his assault or is disabled that it's preferable to the additional lives lost if the gunman fires unchecked.
StillNoStanfurdium
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dimitrig;841913709 said:

Having a badge and a uniform and the authority that comes with it is important - not how well they can handle a firearm.

Likewise, some yahoo with a gun in the audience might be an expert marksman, but he needs to leave his gun at home, because no one can recognize him for what he is or what he stands for.

Trust me, I have a problem respecting authority and yet I don't want to see citizens taking the law into their own hands in an instance like this one (in public). Someone breaking into your house? Go for it.

I will work hard to make sure I relieve you of your guns if you insist on carrying them out to public events. I am sure you will work equally hard to keep that right, although I am not sure I understand *why* when we pay professionals to fill that role.

Are you honestly saying that your peers are incompetent in an emergency? Convince me why I would want to fund their/your huge pensions then?!

Also you seem to act like we have police officers everywhere or that response times are instantaneous. Concealed carry or personally carried firearms are a stopgap temporary solution where the police cannot respond in time. Don't construe the argument for concealed carry or more freedom in where you can carry with an argument to abolish the police force and rely entirely on people self-policing.

Are you seriously saying that if you were in the movie theater that you would prefer to be in the crowd where no one was armed and no one proactively responded to the shooter vs. a scenario where one other person might have a firearm and would shoot back at the gunman?

Concealed carry will not prevent these things from occurring. They miiiight reduce the chances of this happening, but crazy isn't stopped by things like this. What purpose it would serve is enabling a more instant response and hopefully reducing the impact of when these things do happen.
BearyWhite
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pingpong2;841913773 said:

If you're basing it off of the uniform and badge, does that mean off-duty and plainclothes officers should not be carrying at all times? Because how would people recognize who they are?
I was just responding to dimitrig's point but in a case like this I don't think it matters if anyone recognizes who they are -- if a guy in the middle of the theater pulls out a pistol I think it would be immediately clear whether he's trying to shoot the nutjob in full body armor or in cahoots with him. in other situations might be unclear, but not this one, no matter what he's wearing
JeffCalFan
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dimitrig;841912889 said:

Somehow I think the idea of another idiot shooting in the chaos sounds like a bad idea. You'd probably kill someone on accident before being killed by the police. The problem with being a vigilante is how does anyone know who to trust? If you're not wearing a uniform and you are shooting then why shouldn't someone else in the audience shoot you?


I am not going to take offense at you calling me an idiot and a vigilante (BTW, a vigilante is someone who takes the law into their own hands illegally, which is not what licensed CCW holder is doing when defending himself or others from deadly force) but I will point out some fallacies in your thinking. First, I described my take, and only my take, of the situation based on my experience, training and licensing. I will point out that, at least in Texas, the CCW permittees are well trained, background checked and, for the most part, extremely competent shooters/handlers of firearms. Also once your target is down, holster your firearm, secure the shooter's gun(s) and be prepared to comply completely with arriving law enforcement directives. People who have CCWs know there is a chance of being shot, either on purpose or accidentally, by someone else because they DON'T DRAW unless someone else is illegally shooting already. They are also prepared to be arrested at gunpoint by the police and may be charged with a crime if they do not follow the law completely, not to mention civil liability. All that plus the old adage of "Do something! Even if it turns out later to be wrong.", is how I see those situations.

What you have described are the gang bangers with their gats who couldn't clear a jam or get a proper sight picture if their lives depended on it.
pingpong2
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JeffCalFan;841914265 said:

They are also prepared to be arrested at gunpoint by the police and may be charged with a crime if they do not follow the law completely, not to mention civil liability. All that plus the old adage of "Do something! Even if it turns out later to be wrong.", is how I see those situations.


The old adage "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" comes to mind.
JeffCalFan
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So true. I have repeated that adage many times also.
NVGolfingBear
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dimitrig;841913709 said:

Having a badge and a uniform and the authority that comes with it is important - not how well they can handle a firearm.

Likewise, some yahoo with a gun in the audience might be an expert marksman, but he needs to leave his gun at home, because no one can recognize him for what he is or what he stands for.

Trust me, I have a problem respecting authority and yet I don't want to see citizens taking the law into their own hands in an instance like this one (in public). Someone breaking into your house? Go for it.

I will work hard to make sure I relieve you of your guns if you insist on carrying them out to public events. I am sure you will work equally hard to keep that right, although I am not sure I understand *why* when we pay professionals to fill that role.

Are you honestly saying that your peers are incompetent in an emergency? Convince me why I would want to fund their/your huge pensions then?!

D..

May I suggest you keep your butt out of Nevada because there are a lot of people walking around with handguns in holtrs on their hips.
 
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