I believe we ran it twice against Nevada.. one for sure when we were deep in our territory. At first I thought it was gutless. And then I remembered that I've seen the Patriots do this with Danny Woodhead (a small, shifty back like Isi):



Yes, we aren't the Patriots but given that one expects a defense to drop back in order to cover the passing game, is the draw play really all that bad? Isi is pretty hard to tackle because of his size but I'd say his record is mixed running on the inside and avoiding tackles.

Individual calls shouldn't be blamed for a loss. A pattern of head scratchers could be interpreted as deceptive or dumb. Winning somewhat masks problems.

:tedford

freshfunk;841940756 said:

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I believe we ran it twice against Nevada.. one for sure when we were deep in our territory. At first I thought it was gutless. And then I remembered that I've seen the Patriots do this with Danny Woodhead (a small, shifty back like Isi):



Yes, we aren't the Patriots but given that one expects a defense to drop back in order to cover the passing game, is the draw play really all that bad? Isi is pretty hard to tackle because of his size but I'd say his record is mixed running on the inside and avoiding tackles.

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Not gutless. It did 2 things: 1. Recognized that ZM could not get us the 1st down through the air (unlikely by any QB and high risk outcome); 2. Put it on the D to stop them and give us another chance for a winning drive.

I don't know what defense Nevada put up? Does anyone know?

Against the right defense that could be an explosive play... I doubt that they were coming hard at us though (protecting a lead) so reduced likelihood of an explosion play. That being said, conversion rates for 3rd and longs are exceedingly low (excluding Nevada and any Cal opponent I watch) and giving your punter more room and lengthening the field the opponent has to drive seems appropriate.

Anytime the play is greater than 3 and 8, you can count on a Tedford draw. Since I call them out from my seat every time, I'm pretty sure other teams know it is coming too.

It's a good call depending on context-a blitz, etc. But Nevada wasn't blitzing; in fact Maynard had all day to pass on most plays. In this context it was a -let's not fumble here and lose the game play; instead we'll give them the ball back

freshfunk;841940756 said:

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I believe we ran it twice against Nevada.. one for sure when we were deep in our territory. At first I thought it was gutless. And then I remembered that I've seen the Patriots do this with Danny Woodhead (a small, shifty back like Isi):



Yes, we aren't the Patriots but given that one expects a defense to drop back in order to cover the passing game, is the draw play really all that bad? Isi is pretty hard to tackle because of his size but I'd say his record is mixed running on the inside and avoiding tackles.

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This is what the other teams will be saying to Cal


Drago: " You will lose "!!!

The draw on 3rd and long from Cal's own 11 at the end of the game was either gutless or stupid (maybe both). It showed no confidence in the QB and as result, a misplaced reliance in the defense's ability to stop Nevada on a short field. The defense had shown almost zero ability to stop Nevada, and I think throwing the ball would have given Cal a much better shot at a first down (and keeping Nevada's offense off the field). It was a frustrating play call that lead to a predictable result.

Agree with much of what you say, but the comment about QB ratings is off. College ratings are based on a different algorithm than the pros, hence the difference.

Cal tried catching Nevada off-guard on a passing down by running the ball. If it worked, it's Genius. Since it failed, it's Gutless.

I think the sack on the preceding play to set up that 3rd-and-forever was the nail in the coffin for that drive.

Hindsight is 20/20, but might as well have ZM roll out (the prior sack proved pressure can seep through the OL) and heave it downfield, hoping for the best.

A trick play would have been fun, too, but that's just me.

Tedford has been calling that play in that situation for as long as I can remember.
And yes. It's gutless.

freshfunk;841940756 said:

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I believe we ran it twice against Nevada.. one for sure when we were deep in our territory. At first I thought it was gutless. And then I remembered that I've seen the Patriots do this with Danny Woodhead (a small, shifty back like Isi):



Yes, we aren't the Patriots but given that one expects a defense to drop back in order to cover the passing game, is the draw play really all that bad? Isi is pretty hard to tackle because of his size but I'd say his record is mixed running on the inside and avoiding tackles.

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Notice how many of those Woodhead runs are on 2nd and less than 10, rather than 3rd and a mile.

TarzanaBear;841940975 said:

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Tedford almost never runs it on 2nd and long. I've never understood this. Is as though he doesn't realize he has 4 downs. If the first down play doesn't work we are screwed.

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Are you kidding? While I agree we are not playing four downs. He runs on second and long often (usually setting up 3rd and longs). This game, he ran on 2nd and long a lot less than usual, but still quite a bit. Here are all the 1st and 2nd down plays I have summarized and bolded 2nd and long runs:

Quote:

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C 1-10 C33 16-Bridgford, Alla left side pass incomplete to 21-Allen, Keenan.
C 2-10 C33 9-Anderson, C.J. rush for 6 yards to the CAL39 (92-HANSON, Jordan), PENALTY CAL personal foul (73-Rigsbee, Jordan) 15 yards to the CAL24.

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1st down pass incomplete, 2nd and long, run.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C33 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush up middle for 3 yards to the CAL36 (98-REYNOSO, Jack;94-JONES, Lenny).
C 2-7 C36 [Shotgun], 16-Bridgford, Alla middle pass incomplete to 1A-Rodgers, Richard (42-BOUGHTON, D.).

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1st down rush up the middle for 3, 2nd and 7 incomplete pass.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C44 16-Bridgford, Alla left flat pass complete to 21-Allen, Keenan for loss of 2 yards to the CAL42.
C 2-12 C42 [Shotgun], 16-Bridgford, Alla left flat pass incomplete to 84-Wark,
Jacob.

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1st down, pass for loss of two, 2nd and 12 pass.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C36 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over right end for 1 yard to the CAL37
(5-WILLIAMS, Duke), PENALTY NEV holding 10 yards to the CAL47, 1ST
DOWN CAL.
C 1-10 C47 [Shotgun], 16-Bridgford, Alla deep pass incomplete to 21-Allen, Keenan (24-GARRETT, C.).
C 2-10 C47 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over right end for 4 yards to the NEV49, out-of-bounds (24-GARRETT, C.).

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1st down rush CJ wide for 1 (penalty Nevada). 1st down incomplete. 2nd and long, run CJ wide.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C20 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass complete to 84-Wark, Jacob for 20 yards to the CAL40, 1ST DOWN CAL (28-LANE JR., Bryan).
C 1-10 C40 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush left for 3 yards to the CAL43
(92-HANSON, Jordan).
C 2-7 C43 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass incomplete to 84-Wark, Jacob.

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1st down pass. 1st down run CJ wide. 2nd down pass incomplete.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C22 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach rush over left end for 1 yard to the CAL23 (2-WOOTEN, Khalid).
C 2-9 C23 20-Sofele, Isi rush over right tackle for 4 yards to the CAL27
(98-REYNOSO, Jack).

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1st down QB keeper for 1, 2nd and 9 run Isi up the middle.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N43 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass complete to 0F-Harper, Chris for loss of 5 yards to the NEV48 (92-HANSON, Jordan).
C 2-15 N48 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush up middle for 1 yard to the NEV47, fumble by 9-Anderson, C.J. recovered by CAL 57-Schwenke, Brian at NEV47.

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1st down pass for loss of 5. 2nd and 15, CJ up the middle for 1.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C23 9-Anderson, C.J. rush for 3 yards to the CAL26 (51-ROSETTE, Albert).
C 2-7 C26 5-Bigelow, Brenda rush for 3 yards to the CAL29 (5-WILLIAMS, Duke).

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1st down run. 2nd and 7, run.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C43 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over left end for 3 yards to the CAL46 (2-WOOTEN, Khalid;42-BOUGHTON, D.).
C 2-7 C46 15-Maynard, Zach SR pass complete to 20-Sofele, Isi for 17 yards to the NEV37, 1ST DOWN CAL.

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1st down run CJ wide, 2-7 pass.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N37 15-Maynard, Zach deep pass complete to 0A-Treggs, Bryce for 37 yards to the NEV0, 1ST DOWN CAL, TOUCHDOWN, clock 04:38, 1C-D'Amato, Vince kick attempt good.

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1st down pass, TD

Quote:

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C 1-10 N46 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass incomplete to 0A-Treggs, Bryce, dropped pass.
C 2-10 N46 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach middle pass complete to 0F-Harper, Chris for 21 yards to the NEV25, 1ST DOWN CAL (5-WILLIAMS, Duke).

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1st down pass, 2nd and 10 pass.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N25 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over right end for 7 yards to the NEV18 (26-BELL, Dray;53-HEKKING, Brock).
C 2-3 N18 15-Maynard, Zach SR pass complete to 20-Sofele, Isi for 8 yards to the NEV10, 1ST DOWN CAL, out-of-bounds (51-ROSETTE, Albert).

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1st down run, [U]2nd and short[/U] pass.

Quote:

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C 1-G N10 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach end zone pass incomplete to 0A-Treggs, Bryce (9-SMITH, Markus).
C 2-G N10 [Shotgun], 20-Sofele, Isi rush up middle for 3 yards to the NEV7
(54-GREEN, Jeremiah;28-LANE JR., Bryan).

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1st down pass (incomplete) 2nd and goal from the 10, Isi up the middle.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N43 [Shotgun], TM-TEAM rush right for loss of 4 yards to the NEV47
(53-HEKKING, Brock;8-JOHNSON, Marlon).
C 2-14 N47 15-Maynard, Zach pass incomplete to 1A-Rodgers, Richar.

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1st down (botched play?) 2nd and long, pass (incomplete).

Quote:

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C 1-10 C49 15-Maynard, Zach SR pass complete to 0A-Treggs, Bryce for 12 yards to the NEV39, 1ST DOWN CAL, out-of-bounds (24-GARRETT, C.).
C 1-10 N39 [Shotgun], 21-Allen, Keenan rush reverse for 39 yards to the NEV0, 1ST DOWN CAL, TOUCHDOWN, clock 05:39, 1C-D'Amato, Vincen kick attempt good.

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1st down pass. 1st down pass (TD).

Quote:

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C 1-10 N27 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach end zone pass incomplete to 1A-Rodgers, Richar (24-GARRETT, C.).
C 2-10 N27 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush up middle for 4 yards to the NEV23 (42-BOUGHTON, D.;51-ROSETTE, Albert).

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1st down pass incomplete, 2nd and 10 CJ up the middle for 4.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N47 15-Maynard, Zach middle pass complete to 21-Allen, Keenan for 6 yards to the NEV41. Rodgers injured on play.
C 2-4 N41 15-Maynard, Zach SR pass complete to 21-Allen, Keenan for 5 yards to the NEV36, 1ST DOWN CAL, out-of-bounds (2-WOOTEN, Khalid).

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1st down pass, 2nd down pass (1st down).

Quote:

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C 1-10 N36 21-Allen, Keenan rush PL for loss of 4 yards to the NEV40 (2-WOOTEN, Khalid).
C 2-14 N40 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach pass incomplete to 0F-Harper, Chris (94-JONES, Lenny).
C 3-14 N40 [Shotgun], 20-Sofele, Isi rush up middle for 5 yards to the NEV35 (98-REYNOSO, Jack).C 4-9 N35 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach right side pass complete to 21-Allen, Keenan for 11 yards to the NEV24, 1ST DOWN CAL (2-WOOTEN, Khalid).

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1st down sack. 2nd and long pass, incomplete, 3rd and 15, Isi up the middle. 4th down pass (1st down). Passed on 2nd and long, ran Isi up the middle on 3rd and long but we were playing 4 downs for once.

Quote:

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C 1-10 N24 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach end zone pass incomplete to 1A-Rodgers, Richar.
C 2-10 N24 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach rush up middle for 2 yards to the NEV22 (94-JONES, Lenny).

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1st down pass incomplete, 2nd and 10 QB keeper up the middle for 2 I included this, but I don't think this really counts as "running on second down." For one, it was probably not planned.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C39 [Shotgun], PENALTY CAL false start (21-Allen, Keenan) 5 yards to the CAL34, NO PLAY.
C 1-15 C34 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach right side pass incomplete to 21-Allen, Keenan.
C 2-15 C34 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach crossing pass complete to 21-Allen, Keenan for 32 yards to the NEV34, 1ST DOWN CAL (54-GREEN, Jeremiah).

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1st down Penalty. 1st and 15 pass incomplete. 2nd and 15 pass (1st down).

Quote:

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C 1-10 N34 [Shotgun], 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over right guard for 13 yards to the NEV21, 1ST DOWN CAL (5-WILLIAMS, Duke).
C 1-10 N21 9-Anderson, C.J. rush up middle for 8 yards to the NEV13 (5-WILLIAMS, Duke;94-JONES, Lenny), [Shotgun].
C 2-2 N13 15-Maynard, Zach pass complete to 0F-Harper, Chris for 13 yards to the NEV0, 1ST DOWN CAL, TOUCHDOWN, clock 07:24, 1C-D'Amato, Vincen kick attempt good.

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1st down run. 1st down run. 2nd and short (first of the game) pass (TD). A bold call. I am sure Nevada was expecting Tedford to run there.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C02 9-Anderson, C.J. rush up middle for 1 yard to the CAL3 (94-JONES, Lenny;53-HEKKING, Brock).
C 2-9 C03 9-Anderson, C.J. rush over left end for 9 yards to the CAL12, 1ST DOWN CAL, out-of-bounds (8-JOHNSON, Marlon). Summers-Gavin injured on play.

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1st down CJ up the middle for 1. 2nd and 9, CJ wide for a 1st down! Really, first time something good came from running 2nd and long.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C12 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass incomplete to 9-Anderson, C.J., dropped pass.
C 2-10 C12 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach sacked for loss of 6 yards to the CAL6 (54-GREEN, Jeremiah).
C 3-16 C06 [Shotgun], 20-Sofele, Isi rush up middle for 5 yards to the CAL11 (94-JONES, Lenny).

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1st down pass incomplete. 2nd down sack. 3rd and 16, Isi up the middle to set up the punt.

Quote:

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C 1-10 C36 15-Maynard, Zach right side pass complete to 9-Anderson, C.J. for 12 yards to the CAL48, 1ST DOWN CAL.
C 1-10 C48 [Shotgun], 15-Maynard, Zach left side pass complete to 0F-Harper, Chris for 25 yards to the NEV27, fumble forced by 28-LANE JR., Bryan, fumble by 0F-Harper, Chris recovered by NEV 51-ROSETTE, Albert at NEV38, 51-ROSETTE, Albert for 5 yards to the NEV43, out-of-bounds (1A-Rodgers, Richar).

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1st down pass. 1st down pass (complete and fumbled).

Summary: I count 9 times we ran on second and long and roughly the same number of times we passed on 2nd and long. When we ran we usually set up what is often described as "a more manageable" 3rd and 5, which as you say would not not be bad if you were treating it like 4 downs, or our QB(s) regularly scrambled for yardage (I remember Leinert killing us on third downs with his feet) but otherwise is not really that much different than 3rd and long.

We did better when we passed on 2nd and long.

Yes, it was gutless. But worse, the final 3rd and long play just wasn't smart, in my opinion. There are basically 3 possible outcomes.

1. Get a first down.
2. Punt on 4th down.
3. Turnover.

3rd and long, deep in your own territory, with 4 minutes to play. Let's assume for this post that Tedford wasn't honestly calling the draw believe it was going to get a first down. He was punting because he was afraid of the turnover. A punt at that position gives the other team the ball at midfield with just enough time left to milk out the clock and score, making an answering score an impossibility. No coach plays for a turnover, but I'm not so sure that a turnover isn't actually the better outcome since it leaves you with plenty of time for an answer. While I'm not saying a turnover is good, I see no reason to fear the turnover so much over fearing punting in that situation.


Now, the game was already in grave danger at that point, regardless of that particular play call. And there are many coaches other than Tedford that would do the same. Of course many football coaches are conservative.

There is, however, a big up-swell in unconventional playstyle and aggressive coaching taking place all over college football and Tedford is clearly being left behind in this regard.

It certainly felt like a give-up play while I was watching it at the time, and I had no doubt that Nevada would milk the clock and score. I was certain that the game was lost as soon as I saw the draw.

If I am remembering correctly, the first 3rd and long draw was near midfield and it seemed to me at the time that Tedford thought it was 4 down territory. After showing the FG unit, Zach completed a midrange pass to the sidelines for a first down. I think in that situation, the 3rd down draw was a good idea to turn the 4th down play into a more manageable situation.

Unit2Sucks;841941098 said:

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If I am remembering correctly, the first 3rd and long draw was near midfield and it seemed to me at the time that Tedford thought it was 4 down territory. After showing the FG unit, Zach completed a midrange pass to the sidelines for a first down. I think in that situation, the 3rd down draw was a good idea to turn the 4th down play into a more manageable situation.

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Wait - Tedford went for it on 4th and 9? How dare a gutless coach go for it instead of punt!

Unit2Sucks;841941098 said:

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If I am remembering correctly, the first 3rd and long draw was near midfield and it seemed to me at the time that Tedford thought it was 4 down territory. After showing the FG unit, Zach completed a midrange pass to the sidelines for a first down. I think in that situation, the 3rd down draw was a good idea to turn the 4th down play into a more manageable situation.

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"After showing the FG unit" is the key--it sure made it seem like Tedford hadn't been thinking he was in four down territory when he called the 3rd and long run. Fortunately the quarter ended and the staff had time to talk it over and probably realized we were out of FG position (Nevada 35?), plus a FG would put us 1 down and went for it even though it was 4th and 9. It was actually a gutsy call. Maynard throwing to Allen (again on the RIGHT side for those who continue to think Maynard can't throw to his right, were his brother usually is).

Of course we followed that up with yet another incomplete to Rodgers, and a Maynard scramble for 2, and then we had the 3rd and 8 play where Maynard got sacked and fumbled....

taxbear;841940890 said:

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The draw on 3rd and long from Cal's own 11 at the end of the game was either gutless or stupid (maybe both). It showed no confidence in the QB and as result, a misplaced reliance in the defense's ability to stop Nevada on a short field. The defense had shown almost zero ability to stop Nevada, and I think throwing the ball would have given Cal a much better shot at a first down (and keeping Nevada's offense off the field). It was a frustrating play call that lead to a predictable result.

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You're dreaming.

It lead to the predictable result which was what was desired - 8 more yards of room for the punter and a decent chance for the D to get us the ball back.

If there was any misreading of the situration by JT, it was that the D had not been stopping them very well for much of the game, although better in the second half. You could see it coming. Sadly.

TheSwede;841941085 said:

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Yes, it was gutless. But worse, the final 3rd and long play just wasn't smart, in my opinion. There are basically 3 possible outcomes.

1. Get a first down.
2. Punt on 4th down.
3. Turnover.

3rd and long, deep in your own territory, with 4 minutes to play. Let's assume for this post that Tedford wasn't honestly calling the draw believe it was going to get a first down. He was punting because he was afraid of the turnover. A punt at that position gives the other team the ball at midfield with just enough time left to milk out the clock and score, making an answering score an impossibility. No coach plays for a turnover, but I'm not so sure that a turnover isn't actually the better outcome since it leaves you with plenty of time for an answer. While I'm not saying a turnover is good, I see no reason to fear the turnover so much over fearing punting in that situation.


Now, the game was already in grave danger at that point, regardless of that particular play call. And there are many coaches other than Tedford that would do the same. Of course many football coaches are conservative.

There is, however, a big up-swell in unconventional playstyle and aggressive coaching taking place all over college football and Tedford is clearly being left behind in this regard.

It certainly felt like a give-up play while I was watching it at the time, and I had no doubt that Nevada would milk the clock and score. I was certain that the game was lost as soon as I saw the draw.

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Yes, you hit on a really key point. Calling Tedford "gutless" for some of these decisions implies he is going with the odds, playing it safe and we want him to defy the odds and play reckless. We want him to play smart.

The fact is, with the score tied and the ball deep in our territory with 5:44 to play, [U]the one thing we couldn't do[/U] is what we did--burn 2:20 off the clock to move the ball 9 yards to make room for the punting unit, giving the ball to Nevada on their own 39 with 3:24 left to play.

Taking risks to get first downs and big gains at the risk of turning the ball over quickly is not "gutsier" it is just smarter. At least if you give the ball up you do so quickly and if Nevada scores you get the ball right back with plenty of time on the clock. At best you drive down the field yourself or get a big play for a TD.

The play I hate is the automatic CJ up the middle into a wall of defenders for 1 on first down "to give us room." That is a wasted down and a lot of time off the clock for only a limited amount of additional "room." I cannot think of a better time to fake CJ up the middle, suck in the defense that is looking for a big stop and hit Treggs or Allen on a slant or a TE over the middle. Fortunately when we followed up the one yard run with yet another CJ run (were we trying to burn clock?) he bounced it outside for a first down. That was another opportunity to quickly line up and use a play fake to CJ to set up a pass. Instead we were clearly showing pass (tried to throw it to CJ who dropped it). Setting up the 2nd and long, the much discussed sack and then the third and long run up the middle (again, burning more time off the clock) for the punt.

The bottom line is that if you know your objective is to either get into your own territory quickly or give up the ball quickly you take more "risks." Going for a first down on third and long, going for it on fourth, even faking the punt, would all be calculated "risks" that actually would improve your odds of winning.