Twinkies, Ho Hos and Ding Dongs

6,943 Views | 71 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by CAL6371
beelzebear
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The union didn't help itself but lets get real, Twinkies are utter crap, even for junk food, and if you want to blame anyone blame management -- they're responsible for the product, marketing, stock value and long term vision. Labor makes the product but that's it.

BTW, seems like management gave themselves a big raise last year...despite the company being in very poor economic health. Seems like a Bain Capital type move -- loot the company before plundering it.
BGolden
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Hostess Shrugged
beelzebear
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SkyBear;842008241 said:

No reason why we can't blame both management and the unions.


You can blame both but if you're intellectually honest and know anything about business - management takes the rap, they're in charge. They also get the kudos (and compensation) when things go right.

I know, I know, you live in a world where management only gets the good credit.
sycasey
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So at this point, I wonder what happens to the products? Surely some other company will want to buy up the "Twinkie" brand and start producing them in Hostess' place?
Zerk
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I bet it gets bought out by Bimbo!
Mr. Triangle
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I worked for this company for several years and I can tell you, without reservation, that this is the most poorly run company that I have ever seen. They honestly didn't care. It was frightening how bad they were. This is on management.

Hostess wanted another wage and benefit cuts which amount to 27- 32% overall, they were working off a contract that in expired 2005 (no increase 2005-2012). The Hostess CEO was awarded a 300% raise, and at least 25 other top executives were to receive raises between 35% and 80%.Hostess is in bankruptcy for the second time in eight years. Since the first bankruptcy in 2004,union members have taken dramatic wage and benefit concessions(5Kyear) and watched as 21 Hostess plants were shut down and thousands of jobs lost not because of a strike but because of Poor management .At some point you need to stand up and say no more. And yes It will cost jobs but it was going away soon with them anyway.

I am here to say that in the case of Hostess it is not the union. This is on management all the way. I know it is easy to blame the unions and make them the scapegoat, but how about blaming management? Companies go under every day from poor management. My 14 year old daughter could have done a better job at ceo than those clowns. No joke.

In the end, I have no sympathy. There was only one way this company was going.......down.
NYCGOBEARS
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SkyBear;842008241 said:

No reason why we can't blame both management and the unions.

+1
glb78
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Mr. Triangle;842008277 said:

I worked for this company for several years and I can tell you, without reservation, that this is the most poorly run company that I have ever seen. They honestly didn't care. It was frightening how bad they were. This is on management.

Hostess wanted another wage and benefit cuts which amount to 27- 32% overall, they were working off a contract that in expired 2005 (no increase 2005-2012). The Hostess CEO was awarded a 300% raise, and at least 25 other top executives were to receive raises between 35% and 80%.Hostess is in bankruptcy for the second time in eight years. Since the first bankruptcy in 2004,union members have taken dramatic wage and benefit concessions(5Kyear) and watched as 21 Hostess plants were shut down and thousands of jobs lost not because of a strike but because of Poor management .At some point you need to stand up and say no more. And yes It will cost jobs but it was going away soon with them anyway.

I am here to say that in the case of Hostess it is not the union. This is on management all the way. I know it is easy to blame the unions and make them the scapegoat, but how about blaming management? Companies go under every day from poor management. My 14 year old daughter could have done a better job at ceo than those clowns. No joke.

In the end, I have no sympathy. There was only one way this company was going.......down.


These days, very few people blame management. They need to stick to their bumper sticker slogans and blame the illegals and unions for all that is wrong in the world (BI posters are the exception, because most of have critical thinking skills). Now that illegals are off the table as the right capitulates towards immigration reform (they want to stay relevant) - the focus will be on unions. I'm not a fan of public employee unions, but unions who work in the private sector have my support. Labor does need to smell the coffee and wake up and realize what shape their employer is in, but to put all the blame on them is short-sighted at best. I didn't mean to go political but I thought it needed to be said. Just my opinion - end of rant.
NYCGOBEARS
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glb78;842008283 said:

These days, very few people blame management. They need to stick to their bumper sticker slogans and blame the illegals and unions for all that is wrong in the world (BI posters are the exception, because most of have critical thinking skills). Now that illegals are off the table as the right capitulates towards immigration reform (they want to stay relevant) - the focus will be on unions. I'm not a fan of public employee unions, but unions who work in the private sector have my support. Labor does need to smell the coffee and wake up and realize what shape their employer is in, but to put all the blame on them is short-sighted at best. I didn't mean to go political but I thought it needed to be said. Just my opinion - end of rant.

I like the way you think.
BGolden
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10 days after marijuana is legalized, Hostess goes out of business.

God has a cruel sense of humor.
Sebastabear
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All I know is I visited three different stores and couldn't find a Twinkie anywhere. I did however get two loaves of wonder bread, 4 packs of zingers and half a dozen Suzie Q's. I intend to spend the weekend on a trans fat fueled, nostalgic laced sugar high and then have my stomach pumped on Monday.
sycasey
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BGolden;842008290 said:

10 days after marijuana is legalized, Hostess goes out of business.

God has a cruel sense of humor.


Well, at least Frito-Lay is still in business.
Rushinbear
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gb54;842008104 said:

i put one away in 1956. It's still good.


roflmao
Deutsch
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Great discussion. This being an area of expertise for me I can say both lines of thought expressed in this thread have merit. There are no winners when companies in threatened or dying industries (whatever the brand strength is or was) are in their death throes. Often in my experience, management has been poor over a long period of time leading up to the headline stuff. And this means management at all levels -- not just the so called 'fat cats'. It's a threadbare progressive tactic to take aim at 'executives' without the intellectual honesty to examine the whole organization and its history. Poor strategic decisions having nothing to do with greed (sorry libs, it's true) can lead down the path to bankruptcy (such as poorly considered and over generous pension contribution commitments). And then, as noted in some of the better posts above, the obvious way to generate cash is cutting wages and benefits, which in many cases did in fact grow beyond what could be afforded in a dying industry. The ugly human side of this is that people, union and non-union, have built lives on a standard of living which they believed would never decline. It's very hard to accept that what one is so good at doing is now worth 'less'. Even harder if I am a union leader to go tell my constituency that their good efforts are now worth less than they used to be -- when the reasons have to do with poor decision making by management, industry conditions and our (union) disproportionate strength and success in past negotiations now coming back to haunt us as unsustainable. Fault lies everywhere and often little can be done to fix it. I would like to think that there are wise enough turn around specialists out there to come in with deft strategies to effect 'happy ever after' solutions. Sometimes though, (Eastern Air Lines, Pan Am) the business case is too far gone and there is really nothing left but bones to be picked over. Yes, the recriminations will flow forth, as they have in the posts above, and these are very real tragedies each time they happen -- but the solution is not guaranteed wages or making political hay by excoriating 'fat cats'. The solutions rather are better managers being produced at Haas and other schools who will have the wisdom, fortitude and business sense, in combination with empathy for employees at all levels, to forge business plans which are sustainable and durable in the face of political and economic climate change. Haas folks, are you up to it?
GB54
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Sebastabear;842008384 said:

All I know is I visited three different stores and couldn't find a Twinkie anywhere. I did however get two loaves of wonder bread, 4 packs of zingers and half a dozen Suzie Q's. I intend to spend the weekend on a trans fat fueled, nostalgic laced sugar high and then have my stomach pumped on Monday.


Save some for the fallout shelter. This will be the only stuff we can eat after the nuclear holocaust.
Deutsch
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CBZ02 your personal judgments about product appeal may (or may not) be spot on. What matters is the cold reality of sales figures (see others have continued to buy Wonder Bread and the 11 other brands of bread made by the company, and the higher profile sweet stuff). A quick google check shows a three year sales decline of 4.3% which tapered off to a 2% decline in the last fiscal year. This might have been encouraging enough for financial backers to bring the brands out of bankruptcy yet again, but with 372 different union agreements, and at least as many of the dramas described in my post above, there is also logic for potential financial backers to give up and put their money somewhere else. Ugly relations between unions and management may be fodder for pundits and political junkies but they aren't attractive to capital. Also, hard financial reality is very hard for union leaders to preach after decades of rallying the troops to support their demands for more and more to justify their existence and support their re-election. They may have been right all along that management could be better and that management mistakes should not be resolved on the backs of the union workers...and that there is 'worth' in their members' labor which must be honored...but when there is no one left to invest in a business which has both sales and labor/management relations problems, being 'right' doesn't even get you a better place in the unemployment line.
manus
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In the end, both sides became..."Twinkies, Ho Hos, and Ding Dongs."
mvargus
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Deutsch;842008422 said:

Great discussion. This being an area of expertise for me I can say both lines of thought expressed in this thread have merit. There are no winners when companies in threatened or dying industries (whatever the brand strength is or was) are in their death throes. Often in my experience, management has been poor over a long period of time leading up to the headline stuff. And this means management at all levels -- not just the so called 'fat cats'. It's a threadbare progressive tactic to take aim at 'executives' without the intellectual honesty to examine the whole organization and its history. Poor strategic decisions having nothing to do with greed (sorry libs, it's true) can lead down the path to bankruptcy (such as poorly considered and over generous pension contribution commitments). And then, as noted in some of the better posts above, the obvious way to generate cash is cutting wages and benefits, which in many cases did in fact grow beyond what could be afforded in a dying industry. The ugly human side of this is that people, union and non-union, have built lives on a standard of living which they believed would never decline. It's very hard to accept that what one is so good at doing is now worth 'less'. Even harder if I am a union leader to go tell my constituency that their good efforts are now worth less than they used to be -- when the reasons have to do with poor decision making by management, industry conditions and our (union) disproportionate strength and success in past negotiations now coming back to haunt us as unsustainable. Fault lies everywhere and often little can be done to fix it. I would like to think that there are wise enough turn around specialists out there to come in with deft strategies to effect 'happy ever after' solutions. Sometimes though, (Eastern Air Lines, Pan Am) the business case is too far gone and there is really nothing left but bones to be picked over. Yes, the recriminations will flow forth, as they have in the posts above, and these are very real tragedies each time they happen -- but the solution is not guaranteed wages or making political hay by excoriating 'fat cats'. The solutions rather are better managers being produced at Haas and other schools who will have the wisdom, fortitude and business sense, in combination with empathy for employees at all levels, to forge business plans which are sustainable and durable in the face of political and economic climate change. Haas folks, are you up to it?


+1

I noted that one of the articles I read when learning about the liquidation of Hostess noted that one of the largest liabilities was pensions for former employees.

They also noted old work-rules which added inefficiencies to the system. They had been agreed on by management at one time, but now contributed to he decline.

All of this isn't a huge surprise. Wha most people don't ealize is that too many management decisions now are based on short-term thinking that's imposed on companies by a combination of government regulation, arcane tax laws originally set up to punish "the rich" and old business practices from 50+ years ago that made sense back then, but now punish companies.

It's easy to blame "unions" or "executives", but the truth is that its a mix of issues. Back after WW2, many companies found that labor represented 20% or less of the cost of making their products, and with no international competition they could afford to be extremely generous to the unions. The pension deals also originate during this time. But companies figured that this was only a minor cost since the pensions were supposedly only for the last 3-5 years of a person's life.

Of course, time passed, people now can live 20+ years after retiring, and with international competition and lowered raw material costs, labor now often represents 50% or more of the cost of making a product. Worse, few companies now have pricing power where they can set a price and not see people jump to lower priced alternatives.

Management hasn't quite figured out how to handle the change, and makes bad decisions.

Unions appear to refuse to accept that there have been changes, which only hurts the companies more.

There is no simple answer, both sides are at fault, and the solution will take all sides working together.
oskihasahearton
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An American icon...part of the post-WWII American cultural landscape. Boomers carried cupcakes and twinkies to school in their lunch pails.
oskidunker
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The manager said he had three shelves of Twinkies and someone bought them all last night. Check ebay.

I have to admit, I haven't eaten this stuff in Years. the fruit pies Used to have real fruit in them and I loved them as a kid. I tried one a year ago and it was terrible.Nothing like The Upper Crust.
beelzebear
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Someone just gave me a Twinkies...WTF, that stuff is utter crap. Blech!
mvargus
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beelzebear;842008721 said:

Someone just gave me a Twinkies...WTF, that stuff is utter crap. Blech!


I haven't eaten and enjoyed a twinkie since high school. I did occasionally eat the cupcakes and other chocolate confections they came up with. They weren't great, but they tasted better than the new Little Debbie products.

But obviously some people liked their products. (there is no accounting for taste)

Interestingly, the website Zero Hedge had an interesting article on the bankruptcy that talks about what led to the latest drama. Reading it the roots of this liquidation go back how Hostess emerged from its last bankruptcy back in 2009, and the various private equity firms and hedge funds that were involved. It sounds like the main private equity firm (interestingly enough run by a Democrat) wanted to keep Hostess open. However, there were 2 hedge funds that had purchased Hostess secured senior debt for pennies on the dollar before/during the first bankruptcy and they refused to provide any room or restructing of their debt this time around. That is what eventually forced the liquidation. Hostess didn't have any margin for error due to the huge debt load.
manus
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zerkmxl;842008261 said:

I bet it gets bought out by Bimbo!


Grupo Bimbo is interested:

http://nbclatino.com/2012/11/17/will-twinkies-be-reborn-through-new-mexican-ownership/
oskidunker
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I will probably regret it
CalBear68
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manus;842008909 said:

Grupo Bimbo is interested:

http://nbclatino.com/2012/11/17/will-twinkies-be-reborn-through-new-mexican-ownership/


Now it will be "jo jo jo".
Scottski51
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Just a little more info on the situation from a striking union member:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-20/business/chi-idled-schiller-park-hostess-workers-stand-firm-in-demands-20121120_1_grain-millers-international-union-schiller-park-union-workers

Otherwise....everyone enjoy the Holiday and some Safe Shopping if you are so inclined.
CAL6371
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Absolutely also a snoball man myself.Since I live in SoCal, it is the only snowball easily accessible to me. My favorite for many years. This is a catastrophe.
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