Recruiting: We NEED One More Quality: S, DB, RB

14,124 Views | 116 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by HaasBear04
Tedford
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slider643;842072382 said:

There's a reason why top teams attract top recruits, they want to win. Kids aren't lining up to go to Alabama for their stellar academic ratings. The fact that Dykes doesn't have anything to do with the record doesn't make the record or recent history irrelevant. Helfrich is going to do fine recruiting for UO based only on history since he's a new HC. Winning and history matter a lot.


Most kids go to schools first and foremost because of coaches. That is why winning isn't necessary when a brand new coach is taking over a losing team. Dykes had nothing to do with Cal's abysmal year last year, that is very relevant.

If Cal somehow landed Nick Saban you think no 4 and 5 stars would come to Cal because Cal hasn't won?

Of course not, we'd be flooded with them. Dykes isn't getting three and two stars because Cal won 3 games last year.
slider643
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Tedford;842072407 said:

Most kids go to schools first and foremost because of coaches. That is why winning isn't necessary when a brand new coach is taking over a losing team. Dykes had nothing to do with Cal's abysmal year last year, that is very relevant.

If Cal somehow landed Nick Saban you think no 4 and 5 stars would come to Cal because Cal hasn't won?

Of course not, we'd be flooded with them. Dykes isn't getting three and two stars because Cal won 3 games last year.


Our record and recent history is a one of, if not the biggest factor in many recruits lack of interest in Cal. Many recruits will not even consider Cal if they have an offer(s) from other winning programs. I've laid out my reasoning before and you are welcome to accept it or not.
calumnus
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Tedford;842072407 said:

Most kids go to schools first and foremost because of coaches. That is why winning isn't necessary when a brand new coach is taking over a losing team. Dykes had nothing to do with Cal's abysmal year last year, that is very relevant.

If Cal somehow landed Nick Saban you think no 4 and 5 stars would come to Cal because Cal hasn't won?

Of course not, we'd be flooded with them. Dykes isn't getting three and two stars because Cal won 3 games last year.


So the gist of your upset is you think we should have hired Nick Saban? Can we deal with reality?

This staff has had less than a month to recruit for Cal.

The first order of business was retaining the kids that the last staff offered and had committed (less guys that were viewed as too much of an academic risk--because we are on the verge of NCAA sanctions). This staff has done that. However, it is the last staff that made the offers. Cannot blame this staff for the number of stars those guys have.

The second order of business was filling the gaping holes at OL and DL left by the last staff. 4 and 5 star OL and DL are guys that have been recruited since at least their junior year. 90% are already committed. A bigger name coach might have gotten in on some, maybe flipped one or two, but not a "flood." Not with one month till signing day. Besides, stars for OL are not as meaningful as they are for other positions. Most of the top uncommitted OL and DL are being pursued by the SEC heavyweights.

Thirdly, a lot of the guys this staff went after are guys that were eligible for early entry so they can count against last year's class and participate in Spring. Not going to be a lot of 4 or 5 star guys in that category.

If you think kids "first and foremost commit to schools because of coaches," do you consider Mike Leach or Rich Rodriguez to be big names? They did not bring in classes in the top 50 in their first years.

I do believe that we could have had a 2013 class with more more stars if we hired a bigger name (say Hue Jackson), or if we ignored the fact we are on the verge of sanctions for our APR, or instead of focusing on rebuilding the OL and DL just brought in the highest rated recruits at any position we could get (as we appeared to do in past years), but that would have been very short-sighted. This was not a one-year hire and Dykes is making the right moves for long-term success at Cal.
BearlyCareAnymore
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calumnus;842072435 said:



I do believe that we could have had a 2013 class with more more stars if we hired a bigger name (say Hue Jackson), or if we ignored the fact we are on the verge of sanctions for our APR, or instead of focusing on rebuilding the OL and DL just brought in the highest rated recruits at any position we could get (as we appeared to do in past years), but that would have been very short-sighted. This was not a one-year hire and Dykes is making the right moves for long-term success at Cal.


I'm sorry, but this has got to stop. Our APR last year was unacceptable. However, we are not on the verge of sanctions that are crippling our recruiting. Look at the data. Read the rules. We are not close to being sanctioned. Furthermore, LaTech's APR was 10 points higher than Cal's last year, and ranked 74th. If it was such a critical issue, is that the profile of the coach we would have hired?

I agree with you overall. Given the circumstances, Dykes has done a good job recruiting. He's done better than Tedford did his first year, and if he matches Tedford's early results on the field and in recruiting, I'll be very happy.

But lets not get into this Holmoe mindset that the coach is so hamstrung (or equally disturbing, the commenting on grades when a recruit is either dropped or chooses to go elsewhere). If Tedford did anything, he demonstrated that is not the case. Cal is not the best place to recruit to, but it is a good one and a good coach can take advantage of it. I have no reason to believe Dykes won't be able to.
calumnus
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OaktownBear;842072483 said:

I'm sorry, but this has got to stop. Our APR last year was unacceptable. However, we are not on the verge of sanctions that are crippling our recruiting. Look at the data. Read the rules. We are not close to being sanctioned. Furthermore, LaTech's APR was 10 points higher than Cal's last year, and ranked 74th. If it was such a critical issue, is that the profile of the coach we would have hired?

I agree with you overall. Given the circumstances, Dykes has done a good job recruiting. He's done better than Tedford did his first year, and if he matches Tedford's early results on the field and in recruiting, I'll be very happy.

But lets not get into this Holmoe mindset that the coach is so hamstrung (or equally disturbing, the commenting on grades when a recruit is either dropped or chooses to go elsewhere). If Tedford did anything, he demonstrated that is not the case. Cal is not the best place to recruit to, but it is a good one and a good coach can take advantage of it. I have no reason to believe Dykes won't be able to.


I may have overstated the sanctions issue, but you misread me overall. I think Cal is a great place to recruit to--when you have a entire recruiting cycle.

All I am saying is that THIS class is not the class to judge this staff's recruiting abilities, at least not based on comparative star rankings.

As far as academics (and have no doubt, the emphasis on correcting the academics situation did not originate with Dykes--he has just embraced the challenge, so comparing the situation Dykes had at other places is not instructive), Dykes can expand his recruiting and take more risks once he is confident the academic house is in order (including the possibility of kids leaving during the transition who are NOT in good academic standing and will further negatively effect or APR), but don't you think he needs a year for that? To get a feel for the scholastic aptitude of the kids we have?

Given the situation he came into, all things considered, Dykes is doing a solid job. The situation will hopefully be VERY different a year from now (including exciting, winning football). I don't believe academics will be as big an issue going forward as it is this year.
moonpod
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I would temper it and say Dykes et al has done an ok job. Great would imply there's very little more you could ask for. I would beg to differ and say pulling a high profile WR, RB and some safeties AND holding onto Hunt and Ragin would be a "great" job. What the staff has done to date is an "ok" job. They certainly have a better perception of making sure the foundation of the team (OL/DL depth) is solid. Things could definitely have turned out worse, but there's definitely room under the ceiling. That being said, it was a tough situation to walk into. Next year will be a better indicator. Frankly if we don't see a 7-8 win season (8 including a bowl win is IMO very realistic--this is not a 3-9 roster talent wise) and a stronger overall performance in the recruiting cycle I will be worried.
BearlyCareAnymore
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calumnus;842072517 said:

I may have overstated the sanctions issue, but you misread me overall. I think Cal is a great place to recruit to--when you have a entire recruiting cycle.

All I am saying is that THIS class is not the class to judge this staff's recruiting abilities, at least not based on comparative star rankings.

As far as academics (and have no doubt, the emphasis on correcting the academics situation did not originate with Dykes--he has just embraced the challenge, so comparing the situation Dykes had at other places is not instructive), Dykes can expand his recruiting and take more risks once he is confident the academic house is in order (including the possibility of kids leaving during the transition who are NOT in good academic standing and will further negatively effect or APR), but don't you think he needs a year for that? To get a feel for the scholastic aptitude of the kids we have?

Given the situation he came into, all things considered, Dykes is doing a solid job. The situation will hopefully be VERY different a year from now (including exciting, winning football). I don't believe academics will be as big an issue going forward as it is this year.


Calumnus quite honestly this is not just a response to you, but to many on the academic issue. I've seen many references to us being on the precipice of sanctions, which is not borne out by the facts. I've seen statements that Tedford was fired for academic failings, not football ones, which is ridiculous. I've seen a lot of sanctimony about who can be recruited, and about STUDENT athletes. I've seen a lot of statements that Dykes can't take everybody he wants or that we are limited on 4 and 5 stars by their academic performance. I just can't believe anymore that people can be constantly snowed by the Cal administration on this point.

What Dykes did at LaTech is not instructive as to how well he can do on academics at Cal once he is challenged to do well I agree with you entirely on that point. However, it absolutely IS instructive regarding Cal's motivations and priorities. If this was a high priority, they would have selected a coach that has a track record of teams with academic excellence. Preferably a track record of excelling on the football field and in the classroom. What they did was pick a coach that they liked from a purely football perspective, and then said academics was important.

I'm sorry, it's been too many years of lip service on this issue while we fail over and over. I call bullshyte on the administration. Maybe I'm scarred by admittedly a prior administration telling us over and over how wonderful Holmoe was doing on academics when they had the data and knew they were lying. But I look at Dykes prior track record and if the academics was the driving point that hire doesn't make sense.

My strong preference would be that we win with academic excellence. Frankly, though, I could accept the practicality of saying football (and basketball) are just different. There are a different set of rules. But pick one and be honest. I'm tired of trotting out the academic card when it suits a purpose and constant lack of follow through.

The bottom line is, the Cal athletic department is not the same as the university. The academic record in revenue sports is not good, and I don't see any ACTIONS by the administration other than telling coaches they should succeed in the classroom and then throwing up their hands when they don't. We have to stop acting like the fact that the general student population excels academically gives our athletic department claim to academic superiority.

We may very well excel academically, but if we do, it will be because Dykes does it, not because the athletic department has fundamentally changed anything. Had they done that, the substantial gains that Tedford made in the classroom wouldn't have been so easily given back once we started struggling on the field.
heartofthebear
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OaktownBear;842072554 said:

Calumnus quite honestly this is not just a response to you, but to many on the academic issue. I've seen many references to us being on the precipice of sanctions, which is not borne out by the facts. I've seen statements that Tedford was fired for academic failings, not football ones, which is ridiculous. I've seen a lot of sanctimony about who can be recruited, and about STUDENT athletes. I've seen a lot of statements that Dykes can't take everybody he wants or that we are limited on 4 and 5 stars by their academic performance. I just can't believe anymore that people can be constantly snowed by the Cal administration on this point.

What Dykes did at LaTech is not instructive as to how well he can do on academics at Cal once he is challenged to do well I agree with you entirely on that point. However, it absolutely IS instructive regarding Cal's motivations and priorities. If this was a high priority, they would have selected a coach that has a track record of teams with academic excellence. Preferably a track record of excelling on the football field and in the classroom. What they did was pick a coach that they liked from a purely football perspective, and then said academics was important.

I'm sorry, it's been too many years of lip service on this issue while we fail over and over. I call bullshyte on the administration. Maybe I'm scarred by admittedly a prior administration telling us over and over how wonderful Holmoe was doing on academics when they had the data and knew they were lying. But I look at Dykes prior track record and if the academics was the driving point that hire doesn't make sense.

My strong preference would be that we win with academic excellence. Frankly, though, I could accept the practicality of saying football (and basketball) are just different. There are a different set of rules. But pick one and be honest. I'm tired of trotting out the academic card when it suits a purpose and constant lack of follow through.

The bottom line is, the Cal athletic department is not the same as the university. The academic record in revenue sports is not good, and I don't see any ACTIONS by the administration other than telling coaches they should succeed in the classroom and then throwing up their hands when they don't. We have to stop acting like the fact that the general student population excels academically gives our athletic department claim to academic superiority.

We may very well excel academically, but if we do, it will be because Dykes does it, not because the athletic department has fundamentally changed anything. Had they done that, the substantial gains that Tedford made in the classroom wouldn't have been so easily given back once we started struggling on the field.


Oaktown... I admit to participating in some of what you now post as if it was misinformation. I am vulnerable to criticism because I too often rely on other posts as sources of info. Suffice it to say, this is the first I have heard of this. If you had spoken up earlier, I would have changes some of what I wrote. But I have a question...

Are you saying that Dykes approach to recruiting this year is the way he is going to approach recruiting every year and therefore we are to expect mediocre classes in the future?

Those of us that are defending Dykes are mainly concerned with the implication that things won't get better. It seems reasonable to give him at least a year of grace. And, while your point are well taken, they are not compelling enough to convince me that this year's recruiting hasn't been significantly impacted by academic pressures. Whether or not our APR suggests that we are on the brink of sanctions, Dykes himself has stated that he believes there is a relationship between academic success and athletic success. I don't remember him stating that he believes there is a relationship between star ratings and success. I suspect that he has the confidence to develop what ever players he has into successful players regardless of star rating and so he feels comfortable focusing primarily on academic performance when recruiting. At least for now, I am willing to trust that he is going to make Cal football successful. Until I see otherwise, I don't see the point in putting a microscope on the star ratings as a tool of analysing Dykes' abilities.

For Tedford fans, he was not that much more affective with 4 stars than with 3 stars. We did do better with 5 stars, all 2 of them DJ and ML. Guys like those 2 don't come to programs like Cal very often, regardless of the quality of facilities.
calumnus
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heartofthebear;842072659 said:

Oaktown... I admit to participating in some of what you now post as if it was misinformation. I am vulnerable to criticism because I too often rely on other posts as sources of info. Suffice it to say, this is the first I have heard of this. If you had spoken up earlier, I would have changes some of what I wrote. But I have a question...

Are you saying that Dykes approach to recruiting this year is the way he is going to approach recruiting every year and therefore we are to expect mediocre classes in the future?

Those of us that are defending Dykes are mainly concerned with the implication that things won't get better. It seems reasonable to give him at least a year of grace. And, while your point are well taken, they are not compelling enough to convince me that this year's recruiting hasn't been significantly impacted by academic pressures. Whether or not our APR suggests that we are on the brink of sanctions, Dykes himself has stated that he believes there is a relationship between academic success and athletic success. I don't remember him stating that he believes there is a relationship between star ratings and success. I suspect that he has the confidence to develop what ever players he has into successful players regardless of star rating and so he feels comfortable focusing primarily on academic performance when recruiting. At least for now, I am willing to trust that he is going to make Cal football successful. Until I see otherwise, I don't see the point in putting a microscope on the star ratings as a tool of analysing Dykes' abilities.

For Tedford fans, he was not that much more affective with 4 stars than with 3 stars. We did do better with 5 stars, all 2 of them DJ and ML. Guys like those 2 don't come to programs like Cal very often, regardless of the quality of facilities.


Agreed--except, going by Scout our five stars were:
Desean Jackson
Lavelle Hawkins
Joe Ayoob
Keenan Allen
Viliami Moala
Bryce Treggs

Marshawn Lynch was a 4 star on Scout (ridiculous). Justin Forsett had 2 stars in that same class (equally ridiculous).
Our Domicile
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OaktownBear;842072554 said:

Calumnus – quite honestly [COLOR="Blue"]this is not just a response to you, but to many on the academic issue[/COLOR]. I’ve seen many references to us being on the precipice of sanctions, which is not borne out by the facts. I’ve seen statements that Tedford was fired for academic failings, not football ones, which is ridiculous. [COLOR="blue"]I’ve seen a lot of sanctimony about who can be recruited, and about STUDENT athletes[/COLOR]. I’ve seen a lot of statements that Dykes can’t take everybody he wants or that we are limited on 4 and 5 stars by their academic performance. I just can’t believe anymore that people can be constantly snowed by the Cal administration on this point....




Hmm....it sounds like a response to SonofCalVa...lol.

I grabbed only a portion of your post above, but great stuff in entirety. Definitely food for thought.

Yes, at the moment, I think any and every failed recruiting attempt can be conveniently blamed on 'he wasn't an academic fit' by a rookie coaching staff and their true believers when the truth of the matter could simply be that they are rookie recruiters who failed to properly sell the Program.....because they are rookie coaches to the PAC-12 and West Coast proper and the recruits realize it. In other words, the current staff have yet to get their 'street cred' in our neck of the woods.

Although I think recruiting will be better next year (some 'street cred gained from on-the-field results, working with a full year and getting used to the West Coast), intentional and unintentional Spin Jobs by a rookie coaching staff and their Internet buddies trying to appease their seemingly all-Nerd, academics-only fanbase are to be fully expected this current recruiting cycle.

It's simply called Politics and the New Administration wants to get off to a great start and put out a great image ('we know what we're doing'), no matter what is really going on behind the scenes. But, once again, I think recruiting will be better in the future.
SonOfCalVa
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interesting thread with only one conclusion ... "whatever"

LOI day, open spring practice coming, maybe a few comments on summer, open fall practices then the first game.
HaasBear04
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Our Domicile;842072680 said:


But, once again, I think recruiting will be better in the future.


yeah no question, especially when the facilities are finished.
 
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