brj1;842090074 said:

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Nothing worse than grabbing a great, expensive meal and coming out to find a $ 100.00 plus parking ticket on your windshield. That system kills repeat business. People with disposable income want to drive a car to shop or dine, and they will pay for parking. They don't want to pay outrageous parking fines or worry about homeless people breaking into their cars.

---

This all goes back to my old conspiracy theory that a lot of the longtime old-school Berkeley residents are actually happy that parking tickets and homeless people scare away would-be Berkeley visitors, because they don't want outsiders noticing what a primo location Berkeley has, moving there, bringing in condos and businesses, and changing a place they wish could be frozen in time as some kind of 1960s time capsule.

510Bear;842090104 said:

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This all goes back to my old conspiracy theory that a lot of the longtime old-school Berkeley residents are actually happy that parking tickets and homeless people scare away would-be Berkeley visitors, because they don't want outsiders noticing what a primo location Berkeley has, moving there, bringing in condos and businesses, and changing a place they wish could be frozen in time as some kind of 1960s time capsule.

---

That's not a conspiracy theory. You hit the nail on the head. I remember the volleyball court riots in the early 90s when the UC tried to put something there other than dead grass and smoked grass. It wasn't just the little gangbangers looking for an excuse to cause damage, the young and old hippies were involved too. The university didn't have the city's support and they didn't discourage their little anarchist friends from rioting.

Maybe Tom's hippie wife, Loni Hancock, can convince her anarchists that renovating Telegraph is a GOOD thing. Take back the city from the homeless and the useless "activists". They contribute nothing but filth and crime.

GoCalBears;842089870 said:

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To improve the economic vitality of Telegraph, Bates needs to do the following:

- Remove the homeless & panhandlers
- Rehab People's Park...its overrun by the homeless...no students or residents frequent this 'park'...unless they're there to get high or deal drugs
- Build on that vacant corner property at Haste & Telegraph. Its been empty for 10+ years.
- Convert Telegraph from Haste to Bancroft into a transit & pedestrian zone only
- Fix the homeless problem in Berkeley overall...

Elmwood/Rockridge, 4th Street Mall, Solano Ave, and the Gourmet Ghetto are thriving with business & ppl b/c --> it doesn't have the dirty and unsafe feeling.

---

This. As unsympathetic as it sounds, getting rid of the homeless / street people, turning People's Park into a real park and not a campground for the homeless, cleaning the streets and making it safe would make a huge difference.

brj1;842090074 said:

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People's Park. It starts and ends right there. That parcel could be utilized as a commercial/retail with, most importantly, lots of parking. Nothing worse than grabbing a great, expensive meal and coming out to find a $ 100.00 plus parking ticket on your windshield. That system kills repeat business. People with disposable income want to drive a car to shop or dine, and they will pay for parking. They don't want to pay outrageous parking fines or worry about homeless people breaking into their cars. It needs to be similar to the Bay Street mall in Emeryville, where a lot of Oakland and Berkeley residents spend their time and money right now.

---

People's Park is a crime magnet. I have seen some violent stuff. The worst was a tourist $!@# beat by 3 guys and robbed when he returned to his car parked on Dwight. So I guess there is something worse than a ticket if you park close to the park.

grandmastapoop;842089803 said:

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Stay in L.A. Two way streets, esp on Telepgraph, is a terrible idea.

---

I hate to break it to you, poop, but Telegraph WAS two ways, not in your life time, but two ways non-the-less. If I recall correctly, early to mid 70's. Two lanes were removed and the sidewalks were widened. The campus neighborhood flourished with nice stores like George Good, The Shoe Tree, The Black Sheep Restaurant, Bluebeards, Tower Records, Leopold's, Discount Records, Foley's Drugs, Comeback Inn, Fraser's, Tele/Channing Automotive (not real name), Eclair Bakery, UC Book, Cody's, etc. It was a shopping destination...

.......as was Shattuck, with Hinks (the best department store in norcal), Harbert's Sporting Goods, Husteads Shoes, Tupper and Reed, Blue n Gold Market, Birdie's Toys, Berkeley Cycle and Toy, Palmer's Camera, The Whole Earth Access Co., etc.

Then, they f#cked it all up.

GranadaHillsBear;842090124 said:

---

That's not a conspiracy theory. You hit the nail on the head. I remember the volleyball court riots in the early 90s when the UC tried to put something there other than dead grass and smoked grass. It wasn't just the little gangbangers looking for an excuse to cause damage, the young and old hippies were involved too. The university didn't have the city's support and they didn't discourage their little anarchist friends from rioting.

---

That's really no different from what the city has continued to do up until today. They may pretend to do these little things here and there to "control" the homeless problem, but they don't want it to go away. The many different varieties of "sketchy Berkeley street people" are the city's foot soldiers in a war to maintain the status quo.

If they really cleaned up Berkeley, outsiders would flock there and (gasp) possibly vote these crazies out of office!

That's why, despite all of you making the same logical suggestions over and over - get rid of People's Park (which has absolutely no reason for existing at this point), get rid of the homeless, clean things up - it ain't happening. At least not for awhile.

It's about time Bates takes the initiative to clean up the sewer that is Telegraph Avenue. He can start by removing all the homeless people and giving the sidewalks a good steam cleaning. Next is closing down Peoples Park and supporting more student housing and parking in that block. Then he should try to attract more pub-style bars and decent restaurants. Forget about converting the one-way streets to two-way streets. Although it doesn't pertain to Telegraph, Bates should then remove many of the barricades on the residential streets that inhibit the flow of traffic in the area surrounding the university.

This ideal is flawed in so many ways, many of which have been illustrated by the great minds of BI.

1. Bates and the COB have no stomach for being heavy-handed with activists/homelessness and their ilk. This element will riot like Tree-sitters X 15 over anything People's Park related, so this is a non-starter (unless he is willing to call in the National Guard and get ugly).

2. Violent protests might even be a danger to students, etc., and they usually release activitists within a week, regardless of the egregious nature of their offenses. So there is no deterrant in place for anarchists behavior.

3. A two-way street on Telegraph will only snarl traffic worse (as noted).

4. Bates & Co. want to ensure the homeless and sketchbags remain empowered so they continue to get voted into office (as noted).

5. Not mentioned is those outrageous parking ticket revenues pay their fee-driven salaries. (So maybe No. 3 is a precursor to generating more revenue...for them). If there is no viable accounting for traffic patterns, etc., this 'plan' lacks a modicum of foresight.

6. Slumlord Ken Sarachan has a monopoly on South Side businesses. He needs to be brought to heel in order for anything to work on Telegraph.

7. Bates needs to cut down all the trees in People's Park before announcing they will pave the eyesore and transform it into something beneficial for the community.

8. I just don't trust Tom Bates, he's a bad egg. Something n the milk ain't clean on this one.

I hate chains.

Cal88;842089839 said:

---

Couldn't disagree more, the bricks-and-mortar browsing experience for bookstores and record stores (especially used books and independent stores) is not something that can be completely (or even mostly) replaced online. As well, there is a huge problem with letting a handful of players like Amazon completely monopolize the distribution of media.

---

That's a fine sentiment... browsing for books is a different experience than buying them online for sure. But brick and mortar bookstores have been closing right and left because it's not sustainable and it has not/ will not be good for telegraph ave to be hitched to those kidn of sales. I do think that the decline of book/record sales in person contributes a lot to the decay of telegraph. Not it's just not a big draw, especially music which can be sampled so easily online. I don't miss buying records in stores at all. I still buy a CD's and subscribe to Rhapsody, which makes finding new and interesting music super easy.

It's pretty sad to see the remnants of a war between the owner of Ameoba and Rasputins hold Telegraph hostage (empty corner across from Ralieghs was bought by rasputin's owner to keep amoeba from expanding), especially when that whole kind of store is a dying industry. 10-20 years ago I can see how coming to Berkeley and shopping for music/books was the cool thing to do for people all over the bay area... not so much now and the out of town traffic on telegraph has to suffer. I'd think that if Amoeba and Rasputins didn't own their buildings, purchased at lower prices years ago, they'd not be able to pay the market rate for rent.

I would say close telegraph to traffic, bulid some big parking garages on the south side of Dwight to make it easy to shop the area, and build a kind of walking mall would like Pearl St in Boulder, but that's just more room for people to sit/lie, so unless the COB can grow the stones deal with that, it will just be a nasty smelly urine drenched walking mall where the people are wearing the dog collars and dogs run free and crap on everything.

The other thing that I think might be in play is that all these other shopping districts in Berkeley and Oakland actually like Telegraph/People's Park being dirty. It's a good place to push all the riff raff to and keep their districts relatively nice.

Darby;842090165 said:

---

People's Park is a crime magnet. I have seen some violent stuff. The worst was a tourist $!@# beat by 3 guys and robbed when he returned to his car parked on Dwight. So I guess there is something worse than a ticket if you park close to the park.

---

I said it before.....
The business owners and residents/students living around People's Park should sue UC and COB in small claims for public nuisance. No lawyers allowed.

As per Nolo Press:

In legal theory, what's called a private nuisance occurs whenever someone prevents or disturbs your use or enjoyment of your property. For example, if your neighbor lets his dog bark all night, preventing you from sleeping, that's a private nuisance. If the barking persists and causes you real discomfort after you ask that the dog be kept quiet, you can sue.

To successfully sue someone for causing a private nuisance, you must prove that:

you own, rent, or lease property
the defendant created or maintained a condition that was
harmful to your health
indecent or offensive, or
obstructed your free use of your property
you did not consent to the person's conduct
the person's conduct interfered with your use or enjoyment of your property
the conduct would be reasonably annoying or disturbing to an ordinary person
you were, in fact, harmed (for example, your sleep was disturbed) by the person's conduct, and
the seriousness of the harm outweighs the public benefit of the conduct.

[COLOR="Blue"]A public nuisance, by contrast, means that someone is acting in a way that causes a group of people to suffer a health or safety hazard or lose the peaceful enjoyment of their property. For example, lots of noisy airplanes suddenly begin flying low over a residential area, or a chemical plant lets toxic fumes drift over a neighboring property. Public nuisance suits are often initiated by groups of individuals who all file small claims suits at more or less the same time.[/COLOR]To successfully sue a person or group of people for creating a public nuisance, you must prove all the facts listed above relating to private nuisance and also that:

the condition affected a substantial number of people at the same time
any social usefulness of the offending conduct is outweighed by the seriousness of the harm, and
the harm you suffered was different from the harm suffered by the general public (for example, if a chemical plant's fumes are noticeable from the nearby freeway but ashes from the plant's smokestack fall into your swimming pool).

[COLOR="blue"]One fairly common example of this phenomenon involves the filing of multiple small claims lawsuits against drug-selling neighbors or their landlords.[/COLOR]

Once students realizes they can sue for $7K each, it might get interesting.
The Telegraph Ave Merchants Assoc might even be convinced to cover the filing costs for those students that can't come up with the filing fee.

Having been born in Berkeley almost 71 years ago, having gone to this great University for 6+ years, and having lived in Berkeley for most of my adult life, I can tell you I have no nostalgia for the old Berkeley - the dilapidated housing, the lousy parking, the smells of overrunning sewers, and other annoyances of the time. Most now is better, but Telegraph from Dwight Way to Bancroft Way is much worse and a blight on the community. Most of the pedestrian "traffic" is made up of homeless, derelicts, gangbangers from Oakland and those looking for a quick fix. The decline in Telegraph is directly related to "People's Park" and is traceable to that time. Any solution to the problem of Telegraph Avenue has to start with eliminating People's Park. What is done with this space is less important than converting it from a massive drug-dealing area. Once done, the population of homeless, derelicts, gangbangers and druggies will in a short time be ameliorated. People's Park is the attraction for them. If it is to be done, I am sure there will be a hue and cry from aging activist crowd, but there numbers now are few and getting fewer with each passing year. Younger leftists are not amused or inspired by the sewer that People's Park has become.
Oh, and I can assure you that City government is now very concerned about the tax base and raising enough revenue to pay the monumental unfunded liabilities for public employees' pensions and health benefits - benefits that they themselves hope one day to enjoy!

BobbyGBear;842090366 said:

---

I hate chains.

---

Oh yeah....
Jim Davis Sports, Repertory Cinema, CalBook, and Calmo, among others.

Bears2thDoc;842090415 said:

---

Oh yeah....
Jim Davis Sports, Repertory Cinema, CalBook, and Calmo, among others.

---

Sadly, the target market, the students, was surveyed and wanted to see Target

buster99;842090453 said:

---

Sadly, the target market, the students, was surveyed and wanted to see Target

---

This actually raises a good question: what do students do on Telegraph these days besides getting some non-dorm food?

Music can be obtained off the interwebz, so no real need for record stores. Books you get from the same place.

Is it left to head shops and hair cuts?

Bears2thDoc;842090169 said:

---

The campus neighborhood flourished with nice stores like George Good, The Shoe Tree, The Black Sheep Restaurant, Bluebeards, Tower Records, Leopold's, Discount Records, Foley's Drugs, Comeback Inn...

---

Comeback Inn - and before that Sunshines Inn. Best sandwich place ever.

Cal Junkie;842090344 said:

---

This ideal is flawed in so many ways, many of which have been illustrated by the great minds of BI.

1. Bates and the COB have no stomach for being heavy-handed with activists/homelessness and their ilk. This element will riot like Tree-sitters X 15 over anything People's Park related, so this is a non-starter (unless he is willing to call in the National Guard and get ugly).

2. Violent protests might even be a danger to students, etc., and they usually release activitists within a week, regardless of the egregious nature of their offenses. So there is no deterrant in place for anarchists behavior.

3. A two-way street on Telegraph will only snarl traffic worse (as noted).

4. Bates & Co. want to ensure the homeless and sketchbags remain empowered so they continue to get voted into office (as noted).

5. Not mentioned is those outrageous parking ticket revenues pay their fee-driven salaries. (So maybe No. 3 is a precursor to generating more revenue...for them). If there is no viable accounting for traffic patterns, etc., this 'plan' lacks a modicum of foresight.

6. Slumlord Ken Sarachan has a monopoly on South Side businesses. He needs to be brought to heel in order for anything to work on Telegraph.

7. Bates needs to cut down all the trees in People's Park before announcing they will pave the eyesore and transform it into something beneficial for the community.

8. I just don't trust Tom Bates, he's a bad egg. Something n the milk ain't clean on this one.

---

You think something ain't clean? Hard to believe. This guy has been a bad egg from day one. And to think he was once a member of the Cal football team.

Let's install coin-operated newspaper racks on Telegraph, so whoever is running for public office can't steal all the newspapers, if those newspapers have the temerity to run a critical review of his policies, or endorse his opponent.

:rant

buster99;842090453 said:

---

Sadly, the target market, the students, was surveyed and wanted to see Target

---

A MODEST PROPOSAL
We could have Target on Telegraph as long as we make a few changes to the southside:
1) Pave over every other street, so the street grid consists of much larger blocks.
2) Get rid of all the houses, replacing them with bigger ones on lots 5x as big as the old ones.
3) Add an extra lane to every street, plus one more to Telegraph (6 lanes). Plus a 45 mph speed limit. And no sidewalks.
4) Bulldoze everything on Telegraph. Replace all the old buildings with large chain businesses with huge parking lots, including Target.
5) Build a huge mall on the corner of Telegraph and Dwight.
6) Replace People's Park with a car dealership.

510Bear;842090506 said:

---

A MODEST PROPOSAL
We could have Target on Telegraph as long as we make a few changes to the southside:
1) Pave over every other street, so the street grid consists of much larger blocks.[COLOR="Blue"] Aren't all the streets already paved?[/COLOR]
2) Get rid of all the houses, replacing them with bigger ones on lots 5x as big as the old ones.[COLOR="blue"] Happening already, replacing houses for multiunits.[/COLOR]
3) Add an extra lane to every street, plus one more to Telegraph (6 lanes). Plus a 45 mph speed limit. And no sidewalks.[COLOR="blue"] Our own lifesize Frogger game...cool[/COLOR]
4) Bulldoze everything on Telegraph.[COLOR="blue"] Seems already beginning[/COLOR] Replace all the old buildings with large chain businesses with huge parking lots, including Target.
5) Build a huge mall on the corner of Telegraph and Dwight. [COLOR="blue"] To replace the already s#itty mall between Channing and Durant[/COLOR]
6) Replace People's Park with a car dealership.

---

[COLOR="blue"]Now that's your best idea yet....but it would have to be a Tesla dealership [/COLOR]

510Bear;842090506 said:

---

A MODEST PROPOSAL
We could have Target on Telegraph as long as we make a few changes to the southside:

---

Or you can just open up a City Target.

Quote:

---

The first CityTarget opened in 2012. CityTarget is the name for a smaller-format, downtown Target store aimed at the urban market. The assortment will be edited towards urban living, but will carry many of the same products. The stores will still look and feel like Target but many will be multilevel stores in existing landmark buildings, not the usual strip mall or stand-alone locations. The first stores are set to open in Seattle, Chicago, Los Angeles, Portland, Oregon, and New York in mid-2012, with San Francisco to follow in October 2012, and Charlotte and Puerto Rico in 2013-2014. Reflecting CityTarget's urban concept, the Seattle store will be incorporated into the three-story base of an existing residential tower as part of a mixed-use development.

---

okaydo;842090530 said:

---

Or you can just open up a City Target.

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Wouldn't work on Telegraph, but maybe Peoples Park?

I'm surprised we haven't seen a Traders Joe on Telegraph. There is one in Boston in the basement of a building. Totally doable on Telegraph.

buster99;842090536 said:

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Wouldn't work on Telegraph, but maybe Peoples Park?

I'm surprised we haven't seen a Traders Joe on Telegraph. There is one in Boston in the basement of a building. Totally doable on Telegraph.

---

I'm surprised they didn't do anything special with that Adronico's site.

They could've had Trader Joe's or maybe (less likely) a mini-Target.

Instead, I think there's a Walgreens there.

Then again, NIMBY neighbors wouldn't allow it.

They've kept 7-11 from staying open 24 hours.

okaydo;842090537 said:

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I'm surprised they didn't do anything special with that Adronico's site.

They could've had Trader Joe's or maybe (less likely) a mini-Target.

Instead, I think there's a Walgreens there.

Then again, NIMBY neighbors wouldn't allow it.

They've kept 7-11 from staying open 24 hours.

---

Do you know something?
They have recently begun destruction/construction, as well as painted the outside, but what it will be hasn't yet been posted.....though I haven't really paid much attention.

I think having a Target would be a great idea. Best location is on the People's Park area.

beelzebear;842090465 said:

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This actually raises a good question: what do students do on Telegraph these days besides getting some non-dorm food?

Music can be obtained off the interwebz, so no real need for record stores. Books you get from the same place.

Is it left to head shops and hair cuts?

---

Something similar to the UCLA campus would be nice.

Shop, lots of ethic restaurants... not so much for the students unless you keep it affordable (but Durant Food Sq serve hat mkt), but the young alums with spending $$

When my friends and I have a reunion, we like to shop/eat in Berkeley...ideally Telegraph b/c of the nostalgia... but we often go to 4th St, Elmwood, or Gourmet Ghetto (Vine St.) b/c there are more parking and I won't get harassed by the street ppl. Plus those areas feel safer.

Cal Panda Bear;842090546 said:

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I think having a Target would be a great idea. Best location is on the People's Park area.

---

The uproar from zachary running wolf and his comrades would be priceless

climbingbear;842089778 said:

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Chron article on Tom Bates wanting to upgrade Telegraph.

Link to SF Gate article



I like the idea of improving Telegraph. It has become very run down.

---

It's been worse and it's been better. Everyone wants to say Telegraph is always at it's lowest point when many haven't been there in 5-10 years!
The Adidas Store just closed, but Bates needs to prove he's serious;he's had time to address this. Why does he wait until now?

GoCalBears;842090547 said:

---

Something similar to the UCLA campus would be nice.

---

I've always said I wished the Telegraph area could be more like Westwood.

It's not too shiny and new like L.A.'s other shopping areas (Grove, Americana, Century City, Santa Monica Place) but it's kind of halfway between that and a typical student area, the best of both worlds.

(Some people down there complain that it's too grungy and dilapidated, probably people who are used to those other areas I mention. By SF/Oak/Berk standards, Westwood is clean and nice.)

Westwood looked pretty dead the past couple of times I've been there. It's shiny and nice but there were no students. I think they're suffering from the same things - music you get from the interwebz, same with books. The only ethnic food I recall was Noodle World but I wasn't really looking.

Maybe someone in SoCal can say what's going on near UCLA.

510Bear;842090559 said:

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I've always said I wished the Telegraph area could be more like Westwood.

It's not too shiny and new like L.A.'s other shopping areas (Grove, Americana, Century City, Santa Monica Place) but it's kind of halfway between that and a typical student area, the best of both worlds.

(Some people down there complain that it's too grungy and dilapidated, probably people who are used to those other areas I mention. By SF/Oak/Berk standards, Westwood is clean and nice.)

---

Westwood makes Telegraph look horrible. Most students now go to Claremont because theres better food and less homeless ppl.

I am ashamed.

As a Daily Cal reporter, I covered Telegraph Avenue and People's Park extensively.

I went on ride-alongs with the Berkeley PD as they patrolled the Telegraph area.

I got to know many of the merchants, including the owners of Cody's, Amoeba's and the infamous Ken Sarachan.

I spent a lot of time at the Telegraph Area Association.

I attended many Telegraph workshops.

I became an expert on the history of People's Park.

Yet I really don't have much to contribute to this thread.

All I'll say they should blow the place up. Do something radical.

Bears2thDoc;842090545 said:

---

Do you know something?
They have recently begun destruction/construction, as well as painted the outside, but what it will be hasn't yet been posted.....though I haven't really paid much attention.

---

Actually, it's a CVS. CVS, Walgreens. Same thing.
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2013/01/24/countdown-to-new-cvs-in-former-andronicos-on-telegraph/

okaydo;842090608 said:

---

Actually, it's a CVS. CVS, Walgreens. Same thing.
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2013/01/24/countdown-to-new-cvs-in-former-andronicos-on-telegraph/

---

Oh, great. Berkeley will now have a CVS on Shattuck/Vine, Shattuck/Bancroft, and Telegraph/Derby, and a Walgreens on Shattuck/Oregon, Shattuck/Addison, Shattuck/Cedar, and Bancroft/Telegraph.

Ridiculous glut of chain drugstores (7 of them in a 2 square-mile area), probably because they're the only thing that can get through the COB's F'd gauntlet for new businesses.

510Bear;842090652 said:

---

Oh, great. Berkeley will now have a CVS on Shattuck/Vine, Shattuck/Bancroft, and Telegraph/Derby, and a Walgreens on Shattuck/Oregon, Shattuck/Addison, Shattuck/Cedar, and Bancroft/Telegraph.

Ridiculous glut of chain drugstores (7 of them in a 2 square-mile area), probably because they're the only thing that can get through the COB's F'd gauntlet for new businesses.

---

As I recall, I think it was reported on Berkelyside that COB lobbied hard to get a non-drugstore to take the former Andronico's space on Telegraph. Unfortunately drugstores often fit neatly into the existing footprint and they have deep pockets. Would have been nice to see a Marketplace type venture in that space, with vendors for coffee, bakery, produce, butcher, etc.

edit: actually it was in a Daily Cal article from last year

Quote:

---

Over the past few months, the Conference Claimants Endowment Board, which owns the lot at 2655 Telegraph, has been in talks with a number of companies to fill in the vacancy, including British supermarket chain Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market, according to Frank Yoachum, a member of the board. Berkeley Mayor Tom Bates sent the owners a letter late last year expressing his desire to see a supermarket in the lot, reflecting the desire of many residents in the area.

In the end, however, the board chose to go with CVS Pharmacy. As of this month, CVS is currently in the early stages of applying for a permit, according to CVS spokesperson Michael DeAngelis.

---

http://www.dailycal.org/2012/03/26/cvs-to-move-into-andronicos-former-telegraph-location/

what the city of berkeley needs is a giant bulldozer to just flatten the entirety of telegraph and completely rebuild it. The place is nothing but a piece of garbage. It's 2013, time to clean up the place. I'd be pretty pleased to see People's Park and some of its neighboring buildings get bulldozed. Time to get away from the 60s and the drug culture.

My happiest day in Berkeley was the day I left that trash pile.

matrixwalker;842090782 said:

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what the city of berkeley needs is a giant bulldozer to just flatten the entirety of telegraph and completely rebuild it. The place is nothing but a piece of garbage. It's 2013, time to clean up the place. I'd be pretty pleased to see People's Park and some of its neighboring buildings get bulldozed. Time to get away from the 60s and the drug culture.

My happiest day in Berkeley was the day I left that trash pile.

---

:bravo Berkeley needs to eminent domain (yeah, I made it a verb) that slumlord's empty properties on Telegraph for the good of society.