Best value in draft

4,198 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by StillNoStanfurdium
wifeisafurd
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KA in the 3rd
S. Taylor in the 5th. If Monte Ball is low 2, how is Taylor a 5?
I'm also thinking Schwenke is the 4th will turn out be a bargain, but maybe i have been wearing my Pac 12 glasses on too long.

Not sure what to make of Barkley in the fourth, other than with an innovative coach like Kelly, he may end up a great fit.
Cal Panda Bear
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I think Lattimore in the Fourth is huge for the Niners. They dont need an immediate RB, giving Lattimore time to fully recover.

If he hadnt been injured he wouldve been a top 5-10 pick.
hanky1
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Lots of good skill players who are getting picked in the mid rounds because of all the lineman taken in the first. Strange draft
ayetee11
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Cal Panda Bear;842118013 said:

I think Lattimore in the Fourth is huge for the Niners. They dont need an immediate RB, giving Lattimore time to fully recover.

If he hadnt been injured he wouldve been a top 5-10 pick.


I had a feeling the Niners would take him. They will give him all the time he needs to recover
Cal Panda Bear
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hanky1;842118014 said:

Lots of good skill players who are getting picked in the mid rounds because of all the lineman taken in the first. Strange draft


Indeed.
Cal Panda Bear
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ayetee11;842118016 said:

I had a feeling the Niners would take him. They will give him all the time he needs to recover


On paper it doesnt make sense because of our RB depth, but at this point of the draft, Niners already addressed all of their needs
82gradDLSdad
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wifeisafurd;842118011 said:

KA in the 3rd
S. Taylor in the 5th. If Monte Ball is low 2, how is Taylor a 5?
I'm also thinking Schwenke is the 4th will turn out be a bargain, but maybe i have been wearing my Pac 12 glasses on too long.

Not sure what to make of Barkley in the fourth, other than with an innovative coach like Kelly, he may end up a great fit.


In the entire draft all the 'best value' guys came from California colleges. Amazing, what are the odds?

Just having fun with you, WIAF.
Holmoephobic
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wifeisafurd;842118011 said:

KA in the 3rd
S. Taylor in the 5th. If Monte Ball is low 2, how is Taylor a 5?
I'm also thinking Schwenke is the 4th will turn out be a bargain, but maybe i have been wearing my Pac 12 glasses on too long.

Not sure what to make of Barkley in the fourth, other than with an innovative coach like Kelly, he may end up a great fit.


Completely agree with Keenan in the 3rd and Taylor in the 5th as great value picks. Is Niles Davis (3rd round, Arkansas) that much better than Taylor? Not IMO. I think the best value pick in the entire draft was the Steelers drafting Jarvis Jones at 15th overall.
GB54
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Barkley is good value. He'll stick in the league.
moonpod
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The Clemson RB still hasn't been drafted and looked pretty serviceable to me
ayetee11
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Cal Panda Bear;842118021 said:

On paper it doesnt make sense because of our RB depth, but at this point of the draft, Niners already addressed all of their needs


It makes perfect sense. Half the guys they draft won't even make the roster. These later rounds are practice squad players or trades for next years draft
wifeisafurd
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82gradDLSdad;842118023 said:

In the entire draft all the 'best value' guys came from California colleges. Amazing, what are the odds?

Just having fun with you, WIAF.


No argument from me. i do know more about the guys I have seen.

Jamie Collins from So. Miss. The Patriots traded to get this guy as their first guy picked (number 52 - second round). Ultimate hybrid LB for a team that shows a lot 3-4.

The other is Tank Carradine who if healthy would have been at least a mid-round first round pick. 49ers will give him a chance to rehab and he will turn into the best player on their depleted d-line. Has a linebacker 40 time and is very strong. 49ers are having a great draft.
RealDrew2
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More interesting part of Barkley is that Kelly does not appear to be focusing on running qb as at Oregon. Feeling his Philly offense will be up tempo passing spread, not all the spread option stuff.
beelzebear
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hanky1;842118014 said:

Lots of good skill players who are getting picked in the mid rounds because of all the lineman taken in the first. Strange draft


If I were into conspiracies, I swear the NFL is colluding to push down skilled player salaries vis-a-vis taking linemen first.

Of course I can't prove anything but I'd argue linemen salaries stay relatively flat over a career while skilled positions have a dramatic spike a few years down the road...like A Rodg's.

The non-conspiracy theory is it's a transition period in the NFL, switching away from the pro-set to zone-read/speed space. The zone read era says if you can't find the dynamic game breaker, get the building blocks, linemen and TEs.
tommie317
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beelzebear;842118055 said:

If I were into conspiracies, I swear the NFL is colluding to push down skilled player salaries vis-a-vis taking linemen first.

Of course I can't prove anything but I'd argue linemen salaries stay relatively flat over a career while skilled positions have a dramatic spike a few years down the road...like A Rodg's.

The non-conspiracy theory is it's a transition period in the NFL, switching away from the pro-set to zone-read/speed space. The zone read era says if you can't find the dynamic game breaker, get the building blocks, linemen and TEs.

How about this was a crappy draft for skilled players?
beelzebear
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tommie317;842118072 said:

How about this was a crappy draft for skilled players?


But, but...no one gets to wear tin foil hats!
wifeisafurd
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RealDrew2;842118052 said:

More interesting part of Barkley is that Kelly does not appear to be focusing on running qb as at Oregon. Feeling his Philly offense will be up tempo passing spread, not all the spread option stuff.


Bear Raid offense?
soefeil
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Cal Panda Bear;842118021 said:

On paper it doesnt make sense because of our RB depth, but at this point of the draft, Niners already addressed all of their needs


It makes sense because Gore is getting old and Lattimore will probably sit out most of this season.
Cal Panda Bear
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soefeil;842118114 said:

It makes sense because Gore is getting old and Lattimore will probably sit out most of this season.


No I agree hence why I said Lattimore is the best value in draft. I can see Gore retiring once the Niners win a SB this year. Having Lattimore fully recovered + Kendall and LaMichael - we'll be ok
heartofthebear
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Cal Panda Bear;842118021 said:

On paper it doesnt make sense because of our RB depth, but at this point of the draft, Niners already addressed all of their needs


Well at that point they could still have picked a DT, but I like the pick anyway.

Regarding the focus on OLs, it is strange in light of what talking heads are saying about next year's draft being a very good one for OLs.

Lots of great value picked today. Look at the following teams..
Cincinnati
Minnesota
Philadelphia
New England
SF
Baltimore
Detroit-Not Kidding

Most of the picks for the above teams had great value.
Most of the QBs and RBs picked from RD#3 on were good value.
Best value has not been drafted-Chase Thomas OLB (Stanford). Whoever signs him to a free agent contract got a deal.edit: Also, and maybe even more so...Matt Scott QB UA

Here is the list from NFL.com
top-undrafted-rookies-following-2013-nfl-draft
slotright20
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Aside from Lattimore, I really liked the 49ers taking BJ Daniels in the 7th round - out of South Florida. When he was a freshman I thought he had uncommon talent as a dual threat qb but with coaching changes, injuries, things never panned out. He is short for qb, but when healthy he is a tremendous athlete who could play a lot of positions. Smart pick.

Also Okafor from Texas went in like 4th or 5th round to Arizona I think. He is short for a DE and maddening because he seems to only show up when he is in the mood but he tends to go nuts in big games. In 2011, A&M simply could not block him - Matthews was abused to the point where they literally had to keep TE in to double team him. He single handedly took over the bowl game against Orego State this year. If someone could ever reach him and get him to play every down, he could have a solid NFL career.
heartofthebear
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slotright20;842118178 said:

Aside from Lattimore, I really liked the 49ers taking BJ Daniels in the 7th round - out of South Florida. When he was a freshman I thought he had uncommon talent as a dual threat qb but with coaching changes, injuries, things never panned out. He is short for qb, but when healthy he is a tremendous athlete who could play a lot of positions. Smart pick.


If you want dual threat, wouldn't Matt Scott (Arizona) have been smarter? Just wondering.
slotright20
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heartofthebear;842118179 said:

If you want dual threat, wouldn't Matt Scott (Arizona) have been smarter? Just wondering.


Good question.

The thing about Scott is you really have only one full season to look at and it was a largely impressive season. The thing that concerns you the most ( somewhat high # of interceptions) would presumably go down with more experience.

Daniels has the same issue with interceptions and he never seemed to sort it out over four seasons. The reason I would go with Daniels is I cannot get out of my mind how gifted he looked in 2009 as a young player. It is embarrassing to admit, but at that time, I really thought he had All American possibilities as an upperclassman. After that season, it seemed like they really tried to make him a pocket passer and I thought it was like taking a racehorse and hitching him to a plow.
jamonit
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Quinton Patton no doubt about it for me. Everyone had him as a second rounder and with good reason. I was shocked as he kept falling... great pick by the 49ers. Also Barrett Jones is way under rated. Poyer in the 6th nice. Da'Rick Rogers Rookie FA for the Bills and OT Chris Faulk rookie FA for the Saints.
wifeisafurd
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heartofthebear;842118155 said:

Well at that point they could still have picked a DT, but I like the pick anyway.

Regarding the focus on OLs, it is strange in light of what talking heads are saying about next year's draft being a very good one for OLs.

Lots of great value picked today. Look at the following teams..
Cincinnati
Minnesota
Philadelphia
New England
SF
Baltimore
Detroit-Not Kidding

Most of the picks for the above teams had great value.
Most of the QBs and RBs picked from RD#3 on were good value.
Best value has not been drafted-Chase Thomas OLB (Stanford). Whoever signs him to a free agent contract got a deal.edit: Also, and maybe even more so...Matt Scott QB UA

Here is the list from NFL.com
top-undrafted-rookies-following-2013-nfl-draft


I like Scott also, but I get the issues on size and ability to throw long. He is very accurate. those guys tend to do well (e.g., Joe Montana anyone?).

Good post Heart.
heartofthebear
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On Scott: I get the issues on Scott, but he is the perfect back-up to Kaepernick. They run the same offense. Scott was injured most of his playing years at UA. So, yeah, only one year, but he was highly touted out of high school, much more than Foles. Now he's healthy and living up to expectations. More than a few NFL scouts had Scott as their highest rated QB.

The knock on Chase was his speed. It seems that executives were somewhat speed obsessed during this draft.
82gradDLSdad
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heartofthebear;842118238 said:

On Scott: I get the issues on Scott, but he is the perfect back-up to Kaepernick. They run the same offense. Scott was injured most of his playing years at UA. So, yeah, only one year, but he was highly touted out of high school, much more than Foles. Now he's healthy and living up to expectations. More than a few NFL scouts had Scott as their highest rated QB.

The knock on Chase was his speed. It seems that executives were somewhat speed obsessed during this draft.


Didn't he have concussion issues this year? If I'm remembering correctly (and not suffering concussion issues myself) that must be one of the main reasons he didn't get drafted. Is he on the slight-of-build side? He seems really good to me.
Chase Thomas will make a good pro. He should have been drafted.
calumnus
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beelzebear;842118055 said:

If I were into conspiracies, I swear the NFL is colluding to push down skilled player salaries vis-a-vis taking linemen first.

Of course I can't prove anything but I'd argue linemen salaries stay relatively flat over a career while skilled positions have a dramatic spike a few years down the road...like A Rodg's.

The non-conspiracy theory is it's a transition period in the NFL, switching away from the pro-set to zone-read/speed space. The zone read era says if you can't find the dynamic game breaker, get the building blocks, linemen and TEs.


I think it is more "Moneyball" rationality finally making to most of the NFL--the Patriots were ahead of the curve on this--linemen are the nucleus of your team and far less of a gamble. There are lots of good skill position players out there but somewhat paradoxically you are far more likely to have an expensive bust at a skill position. Better to pick solid linemen with your top picks and then get skill position players in later rounds and as free agents and then let them fight it out.

It is also a herd mentality thing in any draft (including fantasy drafts), if there is a run on a position early, everyone else who needs that position picks one to avoid getting shut out rather than pick another position where there are still a lot of guys they like.
heartofthebear
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calumnus;842118242 said:

I think it is more "Moneyball" rationality finally making to most of the NFL--the Patriots were ahead of the curve on this--linemen are the nucleus of your team and far less of a gamble. There are lots of good skill position players out there but somewhat paradoxically you are far more likely to have an expensive bust at a skill position. Better to pick solid linemen with your top picks and then get skill position players in later rounds and as free agents and then let them fight it out.

It is also a herd mentality thing in any draft (including fantasy drafts), if there is a run on a position early, everyone else who needs that position picks one to avoid getting shut out rather than pick another position where there are still a lot of guys they like.


+1
Most mock drafts expected a run on DLs, but the run was on OLs, once 3 OTs went off the board in the first 4 picks, the run was on. Pugh, who went to the Giants at #19 was not expected to go until round #3. He was the 3rd OG taken in the 1st round and there were 8 OLs overall in rd. #1.

The NFL combine has become more of a factor as it is seen by NFL teams as a way to avoid drafting busts and many "skilled" players proved to be somewhat less than spectacular in the combine.

The problems with relying on the college career is that it is not objective. There are differences in quality of opposition, quality of teammates and quality of media exposure. The combine is supposed to be the great equalizer.

But smart executives do not over-emphasize the combine either. They balance all the factors because some players are just better on the football field on game day than they are in shorts in front of guys with clipboards.
beelzebear
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calumnus;842118242 said:

I think it is more "Moneyball" rationality finally making to most of the NFL--the Patriots were ahead of the curve on this--linemen are the nucleus of your team and far less of a gamble. There are lots of good skill position players out there but somewhat paradoxically you are far more likely to have an expensive bust at a skill position. Better to pick solid linemen with your top picks and then get skill position players in later rounds and as free agents and then let them fight it out.

It is also a herd mentality thing in any draft (including fantasy drafts), if there is a run on a position early, everyone else who needs that position picks one to avoid getting shut out rather than pick another position where there are still a lot of guys they like.


This makes sense. The NFL is slow with trends but once one is rolling they all jump aboard. There's also a trend of new GMs who are into systematic approaches as opposed to throwing stars on rosters or Jerry Jones doing his Al Davis "ruler of the universe" impersonation.

It's quite amazing that Al Davis literally had no draft/scouting system in place before he passed away and was running the franchise like a mom and pop store. Now that franchises are valued at $2b and there's more corporate captains involved, the business part changed in accordance. Makes less sense to run things like a hobby or expensive toy, although some are still doing this.
heartofthebear
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beelzebear;842118279 said:

This makes sense. The NFL is slow with trends but once one is rolling they all jump aboard. There's also a trend of new GMs who are into systematic approaches as opposed to throwing stars on rosters or Jerry Jones doing his Al Davis "ruler of the universe" impersonation.

It's quite amazing that Al Davis literally had no draft/scouting system in place before he passed away and was running the franchise like a mom and pop store. Now that franchises are valued at $2b and there's more corporate captains involved, the business part changed in accordance. Makes less sense to run things like a hobby or expensive toy, although some are still doing this.


Interesting: There's so much evidence these days of how important good scouting is. The SF Giants know this and the rise of the Cincinnati Bengals has been attributed to scouting.

On a Cal note: I wonder (hope) if part of JTs problem was that he was also throwing too much at stars and not really scouting enough of the local diamonds-in-the-rough. I get the feeling that Dykes & Co. are better at using their own perameters to evaluate players and hence rely less on star-rating.

Understand that I'm not being an apologist for whatever shortcomings we have in recruiting 4 and 5 star guys. I'm just seeing how your point about about the importance of good scouting could apply to Cal as well.
DangerBear
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slotright20;842118178 said:

Aside from Lattimore, I really liked the 49ers taking BJ Daniels in the 7th round - out of South Florida. When he was a freshman I thought he had uncommon talent as a dual threat qb but with coaching changes, injuries, things never panned out. He is short for qb, but when healthy he is a tremendous athlete who could play a lot of positions. Smart pick.


Is he expected to make the team? I wonder if they plan on sticking him on the practice squad to impersonate Russell Wilson
slotright20
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DangerBear;842118303 said:

Is he expected to make the team? I wonder if they plan on sticking him on the practice squad to impersonate Russell Wilson


I have no idea. I heard someone say this week that only 9% of the seventh rounders make rosters so the odds are obviously against it. My thought is here is a really talented athlete whose true potential was never reached in college - he could be a back up qb, wide out, lots of things. Could also be lightning in a jar. Good place and guy to take a shot.
calumnus
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heartofthebear;842118295 said:

Interesting: There's so much evidence these days of how important good scouting is. The SF Giants know this and the rise of the Cincinnati Bengals has been attributed to scouting.

On a Cal note: I wonder (hope) if part of JTs problem was that he was also throwing too much at stars and not really scouting enough of the local diamonds-in-the-rough. I get the feeling that Dykes & Co. are better at using their own perameters to evaluate players and hence rely less on star-rating.

Understand that I'm not being an apologist for whatever shortcomings we have in recruiting 4 and 5 star guys. I'm just seeing how your point about about the importance of good scouting could apply to Cal as well.


I think the way it relates to JT was the neglect of recruiting enough bodies at the OL position. Year after year. We missed on top targets and then took no one. Especially for a conservative, run first coach like JT that was death. We had some very good OLs, but our line was weak due to the other guys we were forced to play. We took reaches at WR at RB, guys who are no longer on the team, instead of guys without a lot of stars but whom we thought we might develop at OL. It was the very first thing Dykes noticed about our roster. We had about half the number of OLs you should have--should be something like 20-25%--(5 of 24 starting positions, including kickers) of your roster.
StillNoStanfurdium
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heartofthebear;842118238 said:

On Scott: I get the issues on Scott, but he is the perfect back-up to Kaepernick. They run the same offense. Scott was injured most of his playing years at UA. So, yeah, only one year, but he was highly touted out of high school, much more than Foles. Now he's healthy and living up to expectations. More than a few NFL scouts had Scott as their highest rated QB.

The knock on Chase was his speed. It seems that executives were somewhat speed obsessed during this draft.

Source on scouts having Scott as their highest rated QB?
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