KA and ZM are gone, and so is Tedford. Get over it.

Also all this brothers did this and did that, just stop it. If there was actually a better QB on the team than ZM, there would be something to talk about, a conspiracy to drag through the muck and wear tin foil hats. However that wasn't the case. Everyone saw how Bridgford played when put in. ZM started because he was better.

Slamming ex-players serves no one. It's like slamming ex-GFs. Mostly you look silly and bitter..and out of touch.

beelzebear;842118713 said:

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Everyone saw how Bridgford played when put in. ZM started because he was better.

QUOTE]

i agree with how people should get over it, but this part i dont agree with the statement that ZM was better. Its not a known fact. we only got to see him in comparison with Bridgeford and i admit ZM was better than Bridgeford. But we never got to see him in comparison with hinder. Hinder has shown in spring practice that he is far ahead of where ZM was last year. I think it is likely that Hinder was better but never got the chance due to JT's seniority based system.

beelzebear;842118713 said:

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KA and ZM are gone, and so is Tedford. Get over it.

Also all this brothers did this and did that, just stop it. If there was actually a better QB on the team than ZM, there would be something to talk about, a conspiracy to drag through the muck and wear tin foil hats. However that wasn't the case. Everyone saw how Bridgford played when put in. ZM started because he was better.

Slamming ex-players serves no one. It's like slamming ex-GFs. Mostly you look silly and bitter..and out of touch.

---

This is an active thread not started by me. Somebody directed a question to OskiMD, but I decided to answer it as it also applied to me. This will stop when folks also stop dragging some posters through the muck, your mischaracterization being a great example.

The issue of KA came up because it was a legitimate news story relating to the draft. I'm sure it would have been posted eventually no matter what.

If Desean, KA or anybody else for that matter, had been seriously hurt or damaged by one of these posts enough to negatively effect their earning potential and careers, then they are welcome to file a defamation of character loss suit with any and all of the media outlets ultimately responsible for generating these stories.

We are all getting these things second hand. Nobody is bending over backwards to bash KA. If you actually read my posts you will see that I have repeatedly affirmed that KA will do well in the NFL on and off the field.

Rather I am defending the right of posters, who feel strongly about the character of players, to voice their opinions, especially after they are gone. It is much worse to do it while they are still here, no?

heartofthebear;842118355 said:

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For the record I heard a draft day interview with a top trainer who works with draft eligible athletes, particularly WRs. Allen was working with him. He said the issue was the injury and the reinjury in January. He was about 3 weeks behind where he needed to be to get back. He said the rest of the stuff didn't help but that he knew that Allen was going to be an impact player and ready for training camp.

---

A guaranteed "impact player." Every time he had the ball in his hands, at Cal, it was ALWAYS exciting to see what he did "with it"...

Wish he would have stayed for his Senior year. Oh, well.

:gobears:

gobears725;842118716 said:

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i agree with how people should get over it, but this part i dont agree with the statement that ZM was better. Its not a known fact. we only got to see him in comparison with Bridgeford and i admit ZM was better than Bridgeford. But we never got to see him in comparison with hinder. Hinder has shown in spring practice that he is far ahead of where ZM was last year. I think it is likely that Hinder was better but never got the chance due to JT's seniority based system.

---

Hinder...with a poor OL and his lack of size/bulk, he might have gotten slaughtered out there. ZM could at least move and he still got munched. Any way the train has left the station. We're just never going to know.

yea we wont know but id argue even further ZM checked in at 168lbs remember. i think austin is faster too than ZM and im pretty sure hes bigger than that. anyways it is going to be good to move onto a new system and qb.

heartofthebear;842118708 said:

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It is interesting that some people on this board have trouble understanding why some people don't like KA very much and feel they have to defend KA.

So here is one person's explaination. I don't how much it is shared. But it is and was my experience and I feel pretty strongly about it. No amount of posts after the fact can change 2 years worth of experience that I had observing Cal football first hand. [U]The following statement is not to be blown out of proportion as these things happened the minority of the time but still effected my experience and feelings towards KA, Maynard, JT and Cal football over the last couple of years.[/U]

KA acted somewhat immaturely on the field at times, thowing small tantrums here and there, as did his brother. He and his brother monopolized the offense so that 3rd downs became someewhat predictable and ineffective. Too much of the time ZM would target KA when he was fully covered because he did not look for the open receiver. Again this was not all the time, but enough of the time to irritate me and generate negative feelings. Our offense and team would have been much more effective if we had used KA less and been a team more, IMHO. So his record breaking statistics, while impressive, may partly be a reflection of an ineffective offense, especially in 2012. But even when we had MJ at WR in 2011, the majority of passes went to KA, even when he was double teamed and MJ was open. Allen is not so much better than Jones to warrant that kind of preference and it spoke to bloodlines more than strategy. In fact KA nor any other receiver is so good as to be a better target when covered than an adequate reciever, when open.

For me, KAs long relationship with his half brother quarterback Maynard influenced the way the game was played at Cal and made it less fun to watch because of that.

This is not to say that KA is not a great player and deserves to be in the NFL. It is not to say that Maynard did not do the best he could. It is not to say that either one is a bad person. But rather, it is to say that it doesn't surprise me when I hear something in the news that is consistent with my experience that he is a bit narcissistic. To defend him by saying most athletes are the same way is both disengenuous and hurtful to the many athletes who are not self-centered.

The comparisons to DJ are appropriate. While both were great players, they cared more about elevating themselves personally than about elevating the team as a whole, IMHO.

The NFL has become much more concerned about character in recent years and every draft has players with plenty of talent who drop several rounds becasuse of character issues. One of those character issues is self-centeredness because it impacts the team concept. Teams like the 49ers are drafting guys like Eric Reid and Marcus Lattimore, who have been raised with good values and are humble. There is a reason why that happens in concert with success on the field. The reason is that the players are always thinking about what is best for the team.

Every fan is different. But the diversity in fans is what makes us interesting. There is no standard for being a fan. But this fan prefers to watch a team play a team sport. I like the Giants better now that they win with the whole roster rather than just Barry Bonds. There are plenty of other fans out there who are drawn by the superstar like KA. I am not one of them. That does not make me better or worse than anybody else.

It is quite natural for brothers as close as KA and ZM to influence things, especially when one (QB) is throwing to another (WR). And maybe JT decides to do things differently and recruit neither had he known. At the same time one would hope that KA and ZM would grow beyond their own interests and focus more on the team. To some extent they did that. But it seemed to me that it was not quite enough. So, while it may seem hateful to say negative things about them, I think it is a very natural fan response and should be taken as feedback rather than an attack.

It is very natural for fans to be unhappy with players and is something that is not unique to this board. And I take exception to the fact that some people try to characterize folks that use this board to express these very natural opinions and feelings as somehow abhorent in their on-line behavior. Especially since the reason is because their bias is just as bad only opposite.

Again, I don't expect that everyone shares this point of view. But I'm pretty sure at least some do. And it wouldn't surprise me if about half do, as I anticipate that the board is probably pretty evenly split on this. It also wouldn't surprise me if the players themselves were similarly split. Regardless, these are just my feelings as it was asked why someone would post negative things about a player.

---

Marvin Jones was one of my favorite Bears too. But it is interesting that you cite Jones in your argument against Allen (and linking Allen to Maynard). Jones and Allen worked out with Maynard in the off-season. They were reportedly all friends. Jones seemed pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of Maynard as his QB.

Marvin Jones' receptions by year:
2008 1 (yes, one)
2009 43
2010 50
2011 62

So Jones' best year by far was the year he had Zach Maynard as his QB, catching 24% more passes than the previous year.

KA is a lot better than jones. its not even close.

calumnus;842118750 said:

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Marvin Jones was one of my favorite Bears too. But it is interesting that you cite Jones in your argument against Allen (and linking Allen to Maynard). Jones and Allen worked out with Maynard in the off-season. They were reportedly all friends. Jones seemed pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of Maynard as his QB.

Marvin Jones' receptions by year:
2008 1 (yes, one)
2009 43
2010 50
2011 62

So Jones' best year by far was the year he had Zach Maynard as his QB, catching 24% more passes than the previous year.

---

I believe that I admitted to you months ago that you were right about Maynard being the best QB. At that time I explained why I had been a little biased towards Bridgford. Since then I have never argued for Bridgford at QB, except that I thought Maynard could have been benched after the 2011 UCLA game.

This debate, for me anyway, is no longer about who the best QB was. It is about the character of KA and the right of posters to post their negative impressions about that.

Nobody is slamming a player by doing so. It is an opinion, not an agenda.

heartofthebear;842118708 said:

---

It is interesting that some people on this board have trouble understanding why some people don't like KA very much and feel they have to defend KA.

So here is one person's explaination. I don't know much it is shared. But it is and was my experience and I feel pretty strongly about it. No amount of posts after the fact can change 2 years worth of experience that I had observing Cal football first hand. [U]The following statement is not to be blown out of proportion as these things happened the minority of the time but still effected my experience and feelings towards KA, Maynard, JT and Cal football over the last couple of years.[/U]

KA acted somewhat immaturely on the field at times, thowing small tantrums here and there, as did his brother. He and his brother monopolized the offense so that 3rd downs became someewhat predictable and ineffective. Too much of the time ZM would target KA when he was fully covered because he did not look for the open receiver. Again this was not all the time, but enough of the time to irritate me and generate negative feelings. Our offense and team would have been much more effective if we had used KA less and been a team more, IMHO. So his record breaking statistics, while impressive, may partly be a reflection of an ineffective offense, especially in 2012. But even when we had MJ at WR in 2011, the majority of passes went to KA, even when he was double teamed and MJ was open. Allen is not so much better than Jones to warrant that kind of preference and it spoke to bloodlines more than strategy. In fact KA nor any other receiver is so good as to be a better target when covered than an adequate reciever, when open.

For me, KAs long relationship with his half brother quarterback Maynard influenced the way the game was played at Cal and made it less fun to watch because of that.

This is not to say that KA is not a great player and deserves to be in the NFL. It is not to say that Maynard did not do the best he could. It is not to say that either one is a bad person. But rather, it is to say that it doesn't surprise me when I hear something in the news that is consistent with my experience that he is a bit narcissistic. To defend him by saying most athletes are the same way is both disengenuous and hurtful to the many athletes who are not self-centered.

The comparisons to DJ are appropriate. While both were great players, they cared more about elevating themselves personally than about elevating the team as a whole, IMHO.

The NFL has become much more concerned about character in recent years and every draft has players with plenty of talent who drop several rounds becasuse of character issues. One of those character issues is self-centeredness because it impacts the team concept. Teams like the 49ers are drafting guys like Eric Reid and Marcus Lattimore, who have been raised with good values and are humble. There is a reason why that happens in concert with success on the field. The reason is that the players are always thinking about what is best for the team.

Every fan is different. But the diversity in fans is what makes us interesting. There is no standard for being a fan. But this fan prefers to watch a team play a team sport. I like the Giants better now that they win with the whole roster rather than just Barry Bonds. There are plenty of other fans out there who are drawn by the superstar like KA. I am not one of them. That does not make me better or worse than anybody else.

It is quite natural for brothers as close as KA and ZM to influence things, especially when one (QB) is throwing to another (WR). And maybe JT decides to do things differently and recruit neither had he known. At the same time one would hope that KA and ZM would grow beyond their own interests and focus more on the team. To some extent they did that. But it seemed to me that it was not quite enough. So, while it may seem hateful to say negative things about them, I think it is a very natural fan response and should be taken as feedback rather than an attack.

It is very natural for fans to be unhappy with players and is something that is not unique to this board. And I take exception to the fact that some people try to characterize folks that use this board to express these very natural opinions and feelings as somehow abhorent in their on-line behavior. Especially since the reason is because their bias is just as bad only opposite.

Again, I don't expect that everyone shares this point of view. But I'm pretty sure at least some do. And it wouldn't surprise me if about half do, as I anticipate that the board is probably pretty evenly split on this. It also wouldn't surprise me if the players themselves were similarly split. Regardless, these are just my feelings as it was asked why someone would post negative things about a player.

---

I have no idea what calumnus posted in the past, but can you explain what out of this post caused this righteous indignation:

Quote:

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It was his ankle, according to ESPN and provided this letter: LINK

Kid played with a broken wrist in 2011, a torn PCL in 2012, then went our with an ankle injury and STILL was Cal's all time record holder in receptions after only three years. Oh, and the QBs that threw to him were Riley, Sweeney, Mansion, Maynard and Bridgford.

All the rumor mongering and questioning of his character was apparently based on a FAULTY assumption. Reminds me a lot of the rumors that cost Desean $millions before he was drafted.

---

Sorry, but half the people went off on that thread saying he got caught using marijuana no matter how many times the "overdiluted" thing was pointed out. Then people just said what a loser he was. Calumnus is right about what happened - there was a false report and then people used that as a springboard to speculate on other baseless rumors. Frankly, I'd say it a lot stronger than he did. People went Lord of the Flies on the guy, as they are prone to do. I'm sorry, if you want to make character judgments about people based on "available information" instead of all the information, you deserve to be called on it when it turns out the information is wrong.

I have no idea if Allen deserves defending generally - he could be a class A jackass as far as I know. That is the point - I don't know. But I do know he deserves to be defended from comments based on a faulty report of a "red flagged" drug test. There was a time when if you made accusations about somebody based on wrong information you apologized instead of saying "well based on reports at the time, my conclusion was reasonable."

OaktownBear;842118767 said:

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I have no idea what calumnus posted in the past, but can you explain what out of this post caused this righteous indignation:



Sorry, but half the people went off on that thread saying he got caught using marijuana no matter how many times the "overdiluted" thing was pointed out. Then people just said what a loser he was. Calumnus is right about what happened - there was a false report and then people used that as a springboard to speculate on other baseless rumors. Frankly, I'd say it a lot stronger than he did. People went Lord of the Flies on the guy, as they are prone to do. I'm sorry, if you want to make character judgments about people based on "available information" instead of all the information, you deserve to be called on it when it turns out the information is wrong.

I have no idea if Allen deserves defending generally - he could be a class A jackass as far as I know. That is the point - I don't know. But I do know he deserves to be defended from comments based on a faulty report of a "red flagged" drug test. There was a time when if you made accusations about somebody based on wrong information you apologized instead of saying "well based on reports at the time, my conclusion was reasonable."

---

You're right. Usually there is a presumption of innocence with Cal players on a Cal board. With Maynard and Allen there is always the presumption that they "don't belong."

You guys live in a universe that I don't understand. KA was here a full year before Maynard. But negative feelings towards him developed much later, after both had been here for a while. I wrote what my reasons were and they have nothing to do with what you suggest.

The reason for my reaction is that I am sick of the presumption, largely fueled by calumnus, that those who criticize players are unfairly slamming them and causing them harm as a result. Not only is it false and a mischaracterization, but it creates a false hierarchy amongst us fans, where the good fans defend players and the bad fans attack them.

As far as I'm concerned I am just as good a fan for being able to observe Cal players as humans rather than gods that are beyond reproach.

In any case, I am very passionate about this as I think it divides us unnecessarily.

The idea that I or anybody else should apologize for simply restating a report from the major media that turned out to be false is absurb. The appropriate thing to do is simply set the record straight, which is what I have done.

I only apologize when my actions cause harm. The cause of whatever harm occurred here goes to ESPN. And they should apologize.

The damage control on BI that goes on with regard to KA is above and beyond anything I have witnessed. It is a curiosity to me as to why folks are so particularly sensitive about what is said about him.

There have been bad things said about all kinds of players. One recent one was that center Brazinski doesn't really care about football. In fact the O-line has been criticised quite a lot. But you don't see people bending over backwards to defend them. I suppose it is more fair to slam guys that aren't superstars than it is to slam a record breaking NFL bound star. NOT
In each case, we don't really know these people enough to make definitive statements.

If anybody needs to "get over it" it is those that either implicitely or explicitely believe that fans on this board have a preconceived agenda to slam specific players. Great efforts have been made to address those beliefs yet they persist as if nothing had ever happened.

[SIZE="2"]THERE IS NO PRECONCEIVED AGENDA TO SLAM ANY PLAYER INCLUDING KA AND/OR ZM-GET OVER IT!

THERE IS SIMPLY A DIFFERENCE OF EXPERIENCE AND HENCE A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION. THAT IS IT!! IT IS NOT THE JOB OF ANY FAN ON OR OFF THIS BOARD TO STAND BY PLAYERS THEY DON'T LIKE. NOR IS IT UNFAIR TO EXPRESS REASONS FOR THAT DISLIKE IF THEY FEEL THERE IS A STRONG BASIS FOR THEM. BUT NOTHING THAT HAS BEEN SAID ON THIS BOARD HAS ANY MEASURE OF PREJUDICE IN IT. PREJUDICE IS AN OPINION THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF ONES DIRECT EXPERIENCE. THE FEELINGS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPRESSED ON THIS BOARD REFLECT HOW SOME FOLKS HAVE EXPERIENCED KA. YOU MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE WHICH IS ALSO VALID. BUT IT DOES NOT INVALIDATE ANYBODY ELSE'S OPINIONS. STOP MORALIZING ON THE WAY THAT PEOPLE COMMENT ON KA. IT IS NOT A MORAL ISSUE. IF KA, ZM OR DJAX WERE ACTUALLY HARMED BY FALSE STATEMENTS IN THE MEDIA, THEY SHOULD SUE FOR DAMAGES. OTHERWISE IT IS BETTER NOT TO READ THESE BOARDS IF YOU ARE A PLAYER. AND FRIENDS OF PLAYERS ARE NOT REAL FRIENDS IF THEY ARE SPREADING WHAT IS SAID HERE TO THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

THE ISSUE OF KA HAVING CHARACTER ISSUES IS NOT A SLAM BUT RATHER A LEGITIMATE AND DEBATEABLE ISSUE THAT WE CAN RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE ABOUT.[/SIZE]

heartofthebear;842118795 said:

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THE ISSUE OF KA HAVING CHARACTER ISSUES IS NOT A SLAM BUT RATHER A LEGITIMATE AND DEBATEABLE ISSUE THAT WE CAN RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE ABOUT.[/SIZE]

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Amen on the last sentence. I dont think anyone here disagrees that KA was a beast for us on the field. The guy is a special talent and I will pay my respects about his game. It's his off-the-field immaturity that bugs me.

But like I said - immaturity goes away with age. KA is only 20/21, the kid will grow up. I have full faith in KA dominating the NFL both on and off-the-field.

Anyways, we can at least all agree on this

ykes

...right?