NewYorkCityBear;842257681 said:

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I was simply pointing out that using as his defense that he kept Green proves nothing - he kept Green because Green was winning - if he hadn't kept green he would have been run out of Minny on a rail. Saying that the fact that he didn't fire Green until Green had a losing season as a defense that he's NOT a racist is the "lazy unintellectual reasoning" here. McCombs statement that Strong "would make a great position coach, maybe a coordinator" sounds like what a lot of Black coaches have heard over the years, just not ones that had alreay won a BCS Bowl Game. That's not "pulling the race card" - that's pointing out that it exists.

And your ridiculous statement that "He still gave Green a chance to win some games for 3 years...stop with the racial angles unless they are true." points out the problem. He didn't give Dennis Green ANYTHING. Dennis Green was winning games for the Vikes for 6 YEARS BEFORE McCombs bought the team, including 2 division titles., and continued to right up to his last season when things went south (and by the way, Green had a winning season in every one of his years but one, an 8-8 season, before his first losing one, including 4 division titles including 2 of the 3 years before he was fired). Those facts makes your silly paternalistic statement that "He gave Green a chance" make you sound like part of the problem, not the solution, and disembowels any credence your criticism of the "race card" might have held.

Ignoring all those FACTS in your defense of McCombs is what is lazy, not me pointing out the underlying tones in McCombs statement about Strong being "position coach" material.

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I never said he wasn't a racist now did I? Show me where I said that and show me where I said keeping Green proves it. What I wrote is that he showed a behavior keeping a black coach and then made a statement dissing a black coach., so your reading comprehension is a bit off. Also, I never defended McCombs now did I? Again, point to where I defended his statement. You can't because I didn't, and in fact said it was stupid and ignorant. I was merely pointing out that you can't take isolated behaviors and infer things necessarily. Again, your are reading into what I wrote to sooth your feelings but I never defended him nor said he wasn't a racist. I just hate knee jerk race baiters....do you like them?

I wrote he gave Green a chance to win games...you said he gave Green nothing. Well, as an owner he gave him a contract so you are wrong...also, you listed his wins AFTER McCombs bought the teams....therefore, unless McCombs has a crystal ball or is a fortune teller, listing wins AFTER giving him a contract is not why he kept him, because he didn't know he'd win for sure...

Put it this way, I hate race baiters AS MUCH as I hate racists. Because I'm a Behaviorists, I focus on behavior, patterns of such, other criteria if offered to correlate with that and then am real careful about inferring what people are thinking are feeling. You talk about "tones" because of the position coach thing. That is fair except maybe he really doesn't know who the hell Charlie Strong is, and in fact is just pissed at not being consulted and race has nothing to do with it. I don't feel like going round and round about this but you are making inferences about me which aren't backed up with what I wrote...pure and simple.

Cal_Fan2;842257698 said:

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What I wrote is that he showed a behavior keeping a black coach.

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The behavior he showed was that he liked winning, nothing more. Green was still under contract the first two year McCombs owned the team. He renewed Green's contract, because Green was very popular and winning and Green won the division again that year. The very next year, the first losing season Green had, he was gone, one year after winning the division. Know your facts. Like I said, he gave Green nothing. When you base your argument on incorrect information, you open yourself up to such inferences.

And McCombs CLEARLY knows who Charlie Strong is.

I don't like "knee-jerk" race baiters. I also don't like people who whine about the "race card" when there is a legitimate discussion to be had about it as well.

If you like the facts so much, stick to them. McCombs' dealings with Dennis Green in no way indicate anything relevant to what he said about Charlie Strong. If anything, the way he dealt with Dennis Green reinforces what his statement about Strong seems to infer.

NewYorkCityBear;842257702 said:

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The behavior he showed was that he liked winning, nothing more. The first losing season Green had, he was gone, one year after winning the division.

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"Liking winning" is NOT a behavior, it is an attitude. He demonstrated hundreds of behaviors while being an owner....you are confusing behavior with how one things and feels...they are NOT the same..The behavior is how you celebrate and what you say when you win. Again, I try really hard to not infer things from behavior unless those behavior are repeated and form patterns and those acts demonstrate something. Green being fired for losing is a behavior, but inferring it was race would be impossible without more info....Hundreds of coaches are fired for losing and many are fired for no good reason other than the owner wants someone else without regard to race or anything else. I don't know why you keep saying he gave Green nothing. He is the owner, he gave him 3 additional years to coach.

I know my facts....I read up on Green's tenure. You still haven't shown me where I said he wasn't a racist or defended his statements....I'm waiting since those are FACTS YOU GOT WRONG...again, I hate race baiters as much as racists and you don't even know he difference between a behavior and an attitude. Here is my inference, you are bitter and see racism everywhere. I don't know that for a fact, but I'm just guessing.....

Please try reading again. Using his dealings with Dennis Green as a defense is a bankrupt argument. If you knew the facts why did you state that he "Gave green a chance" when in fact he was contractually obligated to keep the man on the first two years he owned the team (and Green won the division and went to the NFC Championship that first year, and made the playoffs the next)? He didn't give him 3 years. He renewed his contract in year 3, and Green won the division and returned to the NFC Champioship game. The next year he had a losing record abnd was gone. He gave him one. You keep saying you know the facts, but you clearly don't. That completely invalidates your argument. Seriously, go read wikepedia and then come back when your argument makes sense. Right now you sound like a complete idiot due to your lack of knowledge of the actual facts.

NewYorkCityBear;842257712 said:

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Please try reading again. Using his dealings with Dennis Green as a defense is a bankrupt argument. If you knew the facts why did you state that he "gave green a chance" when in fact he was contractually obligated to keep the man on? That completely invalidates your argument.

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Seriously, that is idiotic. New owners fire coaches all the time with or without a contract. Again, I'm not making a defense, where am I defending McCombs actions? You mean you haven't heard of coaches being fired on contract...gee, does Coach Tedford come to mind. Cali was contractually obligated to keep JT or buy him out....happens all the time. McCombs could have fired Green at any tiime even on contract.

I really don't give a crap. If you are bitter about it then tough $hit. I'm trying to explain to a guy who doesn't know anything about behavioral inferences or Psychology and don't have the time for a pro seminar

YOU TRY READING .....damn man, you keep saying I'm defending and you haven't shown where I wrote that. You don't even have your facts right about me....this isn't worth my time anymore. You have an agenda and I've been at this much longer than I wanted.

Cal_Fan2;842257716 said:

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Seriously, that is idiotic. New owners fire coaches all the time with or without a contract.

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Not winning coaches and certainly not coaches who have gone to the playoffs 5 of their 6 years. Seriously dude, get a grip. Your argument has enough holes to drive a truck through.

"McCombs could have fired Green at any tiime even on contract. " That would have been tough to explain to a fan base when Green was the 2nd winningest coach in their history behind the legendary Bud Grant.

"I'm trying to explain to a guy who doesn't know anything about behavioral inferences or Psychology and don't have the time for a pro seminar" - You can't "explain" something when you have your facts all screwed up.

"You have an agenda and I've been at this much longer than I wanted."

You sound like the bitter one because you just realized the argument you're trying to make has no basis in actual facts. And yes, you did spend way too much time making that baseless argument.

My "agenda" is pointing out the facts. Yours is apparently avoiding them to try and create some straw argument.

NewYorkCityBear;842257720 said:

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Not winning coaches and certainly not coaches who have gone to the playoffs 5 of their 6 years. Seriously dude, get a grip. Your argument has enough holes to drive truck through.

My "agenda" is pointing out the facts. yours apparently is avoiding them to try and create some straw argument.

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I rarely call names but you are nuts. You said they were contractually obligated to keep him. Owners fire coaches all the time under contract. That is a fact.. Now you are saying not winning coaches etc. He fired him after a losing season, just like Phil Fulmer at Tennesse after many years of winning.

FACT: Owners can fire coaches under contract. Happened to JT

FACT: You don't know the difference between a behavior and attitude (proven by what you wrote)

FACT: You still haven't pointed out where I defended McCombs firing Green. Please, before you write anything else, point out me defending it. I merely pointed out a behavior

FACT: I asked you where I defended his statement and you can't. I said it was stupid and ignorant.

You simply confuse facts with behavioral inferences. You obviously don't know the difference nor how to differentiate between them...Fine, many people can't and don't study it..I do.

Before you reply, please address my points above and copy and paste where I defended McCombs firing of Green and his statement about Charlie Strong. Don't confuse pointing out behaviors with defending something. Once you do that, I might address other points. I've actually shown you what I've said about his statement...."STUPID AND IGNORANT". Again, point out to me how that is a defense...otherwise, brush up on behavior analysis and I'll call it a day ....

Olee Berkeley-eye;842257550 said:

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I applaud ESPN commentators for bringing up the issue.

Racist motivations are the first thing that popped into my mind, like a lot of people. Old white Texas billionaires aren't exactly fonts of progressive thinking. Texas was a slave state and part of the Confederacy, so it's not outlandish to think that Charlie Strong's race would be a problem for some.

You protest a little too much. You sound like the Supreme Court ruling out parts of the Voting Rights Act by saying that racism is largely nonexistent in the United States. The issue of racism isn't going to go away by burying your head in the sand, or trying to shove other people's heads in the sand.

Deal with it.

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You race-bait a little too much. You need to recognize it's 2014 and not the 1860's. A lot has changed in the south in general and Texas in particular. You and those of your ilk just seem to want to raise the race card at every opportunity in your perpetual search for victims. Grow up and wake up.

Cal_Fan2;842257601 said:

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I think he just wanted Jon Gruden. If he is so racist, why did he keep Dennis Green as coach for the Minnesota Vikings for 3 years after he bought the team, and I think he had a black head coach when he owned the Denver Nuggets. He is probably just an rich old man who has tunnel vision on one guy. I usually look at patterns of behavior, not isolated incidence to determine these things..seems like many BI posters don't know how to do that ....

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Amen and thank you! There are no shortage of BI posters who jump to irrational and unwarranted conclusions, particularly when it comes to deep-seated stereotypes and prejudices. Seems like some think there is still an active slave market in the southern states.

Cal_Fan2;842257724 said:

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I rarely call names but you are nuts. You said they were contractually obligated to keep him. Owners fire coaches all the time under contract. That is a fact.. Now you are saying not winning coaches etc. He fired him after a losing season, just like Phil Fulmer at Tennesse after many years of winning.

FACT: Owners can fire coaches under contract. Happened to JT

FACT: You don't know the difference between a behavior and attitude (proven by what you wrote)

FACT: You still haven't pointed out where I defended McCombs firing Green. Please, before you write anything else, point out me defending it. I merely pointed out a behavior

FACT: I asked you where I defended his statement and you can't. I said it was stupid and ignorant.

You simply confuse facts with behavioral inferences. You obviously don't know the difference nor how to differentiate between them...Fine, many people can't and don't study it..I do.

Before you reply, please address my points above and copy and paste where I defended McCombs firing of Green and his statement about Charlie Strong. Don't confuse pointing out behaviors with defending something. Once you do that, I might address other points. I've actually shown you what I've said about his statement...."STUPID AND IGNORANT". Again, point out to me how that is a defense...otherwise, brush up on behavior analysis and I'll call it a day ....

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FACT: McCombs kept Green because he was winning. Anything you infer about his "behavior" other than that is simply conjecture on your part.

FACT: You claimed he "gave Green a chance to win games." That is implicitly defending McCombs behavior. He didn't "give Green a chance" - he kept on a valuable asset to the organization he had just purchased. Green won both before and after McCombs purchased the team. Saying that because he didn't fire Green while he was winning means he's NOT a racist is simply not a valid argument.

And comparing the Green situation to JT is just laughable. Green had been to the NFC title game just a year before his release. He wasn't even allowed to finish the season.

Golden One;842257728 said:

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You race-bait a little too much. You need to recognize it's 2014 and not the 1860's. A lot has changed in the south in general and Texas in particular. You and those of your ilk just seem to want to raise the race card at every opportunity in your perpetual search for victims. Grow up and wake up.

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You scream about "race-baiting" a little too much. You need to recognize that, while a lot HAS changed in Texas and other parts of the South. not EVERYTHING has changed. You and those of your ilk just seem to want to ignore actual racism at every opportunity in your perpetual search for blissful ignorance. Grow up and wake up.

NewYorkCityBear;842257738 said:

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FACT: McCombs kept Green because he was winning. Anything you infer about his "behavior" other than that is simply conjecture on your part.

FACT: You claimed he "gave Green a chance to win games." That is implicitly defending McCombs behavior. NO, defending it would be saying it was the right thing to do and he was right to do it. I said he gave him a contract. That is an observable behavior with no inferences He didn't "give Green a chance" - he kept on a valuable asset to the organization he had just purchased. Green won both before and after McCombs purchased the team. Saying that because he didn't fire Green while he was winning means he's NOT a racist is simply not a valid argument. Again, that is idiotic and YOU simply aren't getting it. I never said keeping him on proved he wasn't a racist did I? But YOU can't prove that because you can't show where I said that. I pointed out a behavior with a black coach both postive and negative.

And comparing the Green situation to JT is just laughable. Green had been to the NFC title game just a year before his release. He wasn't even allowed to finish the season. jeez, you are dense. I didn't compare the situations, I wrote that to prove you can fire a head coach under contract. Are you really that dense?

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You are beside yourself. You are ignorant of real facts and STILL haven't copy and pasted where I defended anything. You say I implicitely said something....LOL, implicit is NOT behavior and only YOU guess. If I said Hitler gassed millions of Jews, you'd say I was defending Hitler...jeez, you're probably a smart guy but you have no idea about what I'm talking about because you keep confusing behavior (which are actions) and attitude and feelings....

NewYorkCityBear;842257740 said:

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You scream about "race-baiting" a little too much. You need to recognize that, while a lot HAS changed in Texas and other parts of the South. not EVERYTHING has changed. You and those of your ilk just seem to want to ignore actual racism at every opportunity in your perpetual search for blissful ignorance. Grow up and wake up.

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Nice try, but no cigar. You just can't get out of our 60's radical rut.

Cal_Fan2;842257743 said:

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You are beside yourself. You are ignorant of real facts and STILL haven't copy and pasted where I defended anything. You say I implicitely said something....LOL, implicit is NOT behavior and only YOU guess. If I said Hitler gassed millions of Jews, you'd say I was defending Hitler...jeez, you're probably a smart guy but you have no idea about what I'm talking about because you keep confusing behavior (which are actions) and attitude and feelings....

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You guys are going cray. Can you agree to disagree and move on?

NYCGOBEARS;842257745 said:

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You guys are going cray. Can you agree to disagree and move on?

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I suppose so NYC...I guess I just hate race baiters or those who infer racism from isolated incidences. I know YOU don't do that unless it is flagrant and demonstrative. That is all I'm arguing. I'm sure he thinks I'm probably a racist not knowing my best friend of 20+ years is black which I've told you behind the scenes, 30% of my male friends are black and the 2 guys I chat with behind the scenes on BI, you and liver are mixed heritage but of course I'm racist....LOL. Ok, you talked me into it Antony, time to leave it alone....:beer:

For an argument that "isn't worth your time anymore" you sure seem to have found the time :rollinglaugh:

Continue on....

Golden One;842257744 said:

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Nice try, but no cigar. You just can't get out of our 60's radical rut.

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You just can't get past your oversimplified and unrealistic image of race relations in the present day.

NewYorkCityBear;842257753 said:

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For an argument that "isn't worth your time anymore" you sure seem to have found the time :rollinglaugh:

Continue on....

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Peace, bruh!!! I call a truce.

Cal_Fan2;842257750 said:

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I suppose so NYC...I guess I just hate race baiters or those who infer racism from isolated incidences. I know YOU don't do that unless it is flagrant and demonstrative. That is all I'm arguing. I'm sure he thinks I'm probably a racist not knowing my best friend of 20+ years is black which I've told you behind the scenes, 30% of my male friends are black and the 2 guys I chat with behind the scenes on BI, you and liver are mixed heritage but of course I'm racist....LOL. Ok, you talked me into it Antony, time to leave it alone....:beer:

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You ain't no racist. You are a sometimes cranky old white man. Lol. :beer:

NewYorkCityBear;842257754 said:

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You just can't get past your oversimplified and unrealistic image of race relations in the present day.

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Thanks. Coming from you, that's a compliment. I lived in Texas for 17 years; I suspect you've never spent a week in the state in your entire life.

Golden One;842257764 said:

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Thanks. Coming from you, that's a compliment. I lived in Texas for 17 years; I suspect you've never spent a week in the state.

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Though I live in NY, I've worked in Texas every year since 2006 and have spent on average a month there every year. As someone who passes for white, I have seen enough examples of overt and subtle racism there to know that your characterization of how things are is not an accurate one at all.

NYCGOBEARS;842257757 said:

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You ain't no racist. You are a sometimes cranky old white man. Lol. :beer:

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haha...sometimes, but I'm still in better shape then most of the young whipper snappers on BI I'll bet....:cool:

Cal_Fan2;842257769 said:

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but I'm still in better shape then most of the young whipper snappers on BI I'll bet....:cool:

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Of that, I have no doubt!

NewYorkCityBear;842257767 said:

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Though I live in NY, I've worked in Texas every year since 2006. As someone who passes for white, I have seen enough examples of overt and subtle racism there to know that your characterization of how things are is not an accurate one at all.

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I'm afraid you're the inaccurate one. Your many posts in this thread demonstrate your total irrationality as that of an egotistical and holier-than-thou New Yorker. I suppose you believe that the Cal administration is racist because they've never hired a black head coach, or even a black OC or DC. I feel sorry for you and the prejudiced world you live in.

Golden One;842257774 said:

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I'm afraid you're the inaccurate one. Your many posts in this thread demonstrate your total irrationality as that of an egotistical and holier-than-thou New Yorker. I suppose you believe that the Cal administration is racist because they've never hired a black head coach, or even a black OC or DC. I feel sorry for you and the prejudiced world you live in.

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Hey now!!! Calm down.

Golden One;842257774 said:

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I'm afraid you're the inaccurate one. Your many posts in this thread demonstrate your total irrationality as that of an egotistical and holier-than-thou New Yorker. I suppose you believe that the Cal administration is racist because they've never hired a black head coach, or even a black OC or DC. I feel sorry for you and the prejudiced world you live in.

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I don't feel anything of the sort, though I certainly wish they had found a better coach than Dykes, black white brown or plaid. And by the way, there's racism here in NY too.

But it's not like Texas, that's for sure. I find it funny that first you assume that I can't know about such things because I must have never been there, but then when I tell you that I have been there many times, I must be wrong because I'm from New York? Change lanes much?

I've met plenty of wonderful people in Texas, but I have seen with my own eyes some pretty overt racism there as well. If you think it's not there, you're just not looking. There are plenty of "Red McCombs" down there. I've met them. You wouldn't believe the things some of them have said to me about Mexicans, not realizing I am part Mexican. I've also heard the "N" word used down there more than I care to remember.

But please, don't feel sorry for me. Save your emotion for dealing with your obvious feelings of persecution. This Hispanitalo Jew does just fine sticking up for himself even in a world in which prejudice is (and will probably always be) a reality, whether you choose to accept that reality or not. Generally, the only people who cry about "race baiting" simply don't want to accept that there still is a fair amount of both overt and subtle racism alive and kicking. It may be 2014, but just because the clock moves forward doesn't mean everyone has moved forward along with it. And your state, my friend, has a long and storied history when it comes to that. Your characterization of it as some sort of racial wonderland is woefully inaccurate.

Very interesting read by an African American writer. It mentions Red McCombs comments.

The University Of Texas' First Black Football Coach Is Its Next Best Chance At Racial Reconciliation

First two paragraphs:

Quote:

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I grew up in Texas, but there was nary a trace of burnt orange to be found in my neighborhood. In a mostly black suburb outside of Houston, my childhood friends and I didn't root for the Longhorns.

We mostly favored the late '80s and early '90s teams from Miami, Florida State, and strangely enough arch-conservative, quasi-militaristic Texas A&M because of their swaggering greatness. They ran fast, hit hard, and weren't afraid to tell everyone about it. Most of our local sports stars found their fame elsewhere, most notably eventual NFL Hall of Fame running back Thurman Thomas. We couldn't imagine Deion Sanders, Michael Irvin, or anyone from The Wrecking Crew playing for the Horns. There didn't seem to be room for those kinds of brash personalities or that kind of ball up on the Forty Acres, as the UT campus is known colloquially.

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Cal_Fan2;842257605 said:

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What are you good at?...LOL..you must be thinking of Red Adair. Red McCombs started an automotive group, founded Clear Channel Communications and owned various sports teams. Don't think he has put out many fires, at least ones he hasn't started...

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Oops! Got my Red's mixed up. Figures, red is the color of that school across the Bay.

beelzebear;842258137 said:

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Very interesting read by an African American writer. It mentions Red McCombs comments.

The University Of Texas’ First Black Football Coach Is Its Next Best Chance At Racial Reconciliation

First two paragraphs:

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Here's another interesting article in Texas Monthly from a Latina writer about the history of the political and social segregation in the state Capital. Like the author, I have mixed feelings about Austin - on one hand it is a vibrant and friendly place and I have many friends there, but it does still have a significant "old south" way to it in certain respects.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/what-nobody-says-about-austin

Cal_Fan2;842257750 said:

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I suppose so NYC...I guess I just hate race baiters or those who infer racism from isolated incidences. I know YOU don't do that unless it is flagrant and demonstrative. That is all I'm arguing. I'm sure he thinks I'm probably a racist not knowing my best friend of 20+ years is black which I've told you behind the scenes, 30% of my male friends are black and the 2 guys I chat with behind the scenes on BI, you and liver are mixed heritage but of course I'm racist....LOL. Ok, you talked me into it Antony, time to leave it alone....:beer:

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I don't think you're a racist. But when you call someone a "race-baiter" for pointing out that a statement can be viewed a certain way (and lots of black coaches have heard some form of that "he's position, not head coach material" line, and I'm clearly not the only one to have that point of view) that's essentially saying I'm a racist and that's gonna get some push back. McCombs apologized yesterday for the statement, btw, and reached out to Strong to apologize personally, which was, I think, the right thing to do.

Here's an article by Cal's own Mike Silver on the obstacles many black coaches face (albeit in the NFL, not college) and it references struggling against those very attitudes expressed in McCombs statement.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--black-offensive-assistants-finding-roadblocks-to-becoming-nfl-head-coaches-054103279.html