I have a friend with a freshman kid that is just now getting his heart set on getting an Engineering degree from Cal. They need advice. A 4.+ gpa may not be possible.

He's the QB on the frosh team and a leader, but we doubt that football will pay off.

Any advice from those that have gone the JC route into Engineering at Cal would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Santa Cruz has a three year program from which the student can transfer as a junior to Cal. Check it out.

93gobears;842272863 said:

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Any advice from those that have gone the JC route into Engineering at Cal would be appreciated.

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As you surmised, Engineering directly is tough.
Alternately, enter in L&S proposing an unpopular field of study (12th Cent. Eng Lit suggests) and then transfer to Engineering; failing that, transfer to Math or Computer Science, and do an Engineering MS in grad school.
Don't know about JC to Engineering, but JC to L&S is a lock for a smart high school slacker who's seen the academic light and knuckled down.

CaliforniaGoldenBear;842272874 said:

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As you surmised, Engineering directly is tough.
Alternately, enter in L&S proposing an unpopular field of study (12th Cent. Eng Lit suggests) and then transfer to Engineering; failing that, transfer to Math or Computer Science, and do an Engineering MS in grad school.
Don't know about JC to Engineering, but JC to L&S is a lock for a smart high school slacker who's seen the academic light and knuckled down.

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I agree that he should consider getting into Cal under L&S and then try to get into engineering. It's tough but I would think less tough than coming from a JC. Plus he would be able to take the undergrad engineering courses required. If he went the JC route, some of his classes may not qualify as units to be counted and he may have to retake some courses.

Plus, he'll have a chance to explore some other classes at Cal and may decide to end up not doing engineering.

Where do they live? Most local JC's have good a program that transfers over. I loved my frosh and soph JC Experience. Small classes, good learning, etc. I went to DVC first, then Cal.

I'm assuming high school freshman. Take SAT classes as early as possible. Freshman year is too early to think about alternatives. What kind of engineering is he interested in? Makes a big difference in to how to approach it.

Btw I did EECS out of hs, didn't have stellar grades but good SAT's and extracurriculars and a strong interest in computer science and a developer internship.

Good point. Probably DVC or Alameda CC.

tommie317;842272880 said:

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I'm assuming high school freshman. Take SAT classes as early as possible. Freshman year is too early to think about alternatives. What kind of engineering is he interested in? Makes a big difference in to how to approach it.

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This is not my strength. His father is a construction contractor without a lot of college experience but wants the best for his kids. Apparently the kid has already gone to some sort of Cal Engineering Camp and got hooked despite being the only white guy there.

What kind of Engineering degrees are available at Cal? And what are the best ways to pursue them outside of initial acceptance?

I previously heard going to L&S then taking mostly courses in engineering. How successful is that?

I'm speaking as a CCC transfer who graduated from Cal as a political science major. My final GPA at Cal was 3.8 (counting only Cal coursework), and I graduated with high honors in my major. Not showing off or anything, just trying to show that I did well at Cal, even as a transfer.

I'm a big proponent of CCCs, in general. I was pleased with my experience at CCCs, even though Cal was absolutely more challenging and higher quality. If his only goal is to get into Cal and to graduate, a CCC is probably the easiest and least expensive route. You can actually have a fairly low CCC GPA and still get admitted into Cal. Off the top of my head, I'd expect him to be admitted with a 3.5 CCC GPA as an engineering major.

That said, I remember doing some comparisons of GPA-at-graudation of students who entered Cal as freshmen and students who entered as transfers. The social science and liberal arts majors had a small difference between the two groupsFreshman admits did slightly better (something like a .05 difference). However, the hard science and engineering divisions showed a much larger difference (something like a .3 difference).

I suspect that CCC science and engineering instruction isn't as advanced as what Cal offers, meaning that transfer admits tend to have lower GPAs-at-graduation than do freshman admits. This may suggest that those majors struggle more with their upper division coursework than do those of us in less-challenging majors.

With that in mind, I'd suggest checking into the UCSC program someone mentioned, and seeing if it is actually guaranteed admission into Cal. If it is, I'd go that route. UCSC would probably offer a higher level of instruction than a CCC would, and make him better-prepared for Cal.

93gobears;842272883 said:

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I previously heard going to L&S then taking mostly courses in engineering. How successful is that?

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Granted it was more than a decade ago, but my recollection was that it was VERY difficult to transfer from L&S into engineering. You have to take all the prereqs and do well (better than B+ average) in order to win. And if you take all the classes and don't get in, you are in pretty bad shape for L&S degree and will have wasted a ton of units. I transferred from one impacted engineering major to a more impacted engineering major after my freshman year, and that was difficult enough.

If this kid is a freshman in high school, he should focus on doing as well as he can in classes and SATs. Seems way too early to start planning for not getting in directly.

Unit2Sucks;842272897 said:

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Granted it was more than a decade ago, but my recollection was that it was VERY difficult to transfer from L&S into engineering. You have to take all the prereqs and do well (better than B+ average) in order to win. And if you take all the classes and don't get in, you are in pretty bad shape for L&S degree and will have wasted a ton of units. I transferred from one impacted engineering major to a more impacted engineering major after my freshman year, and that was difficult enough.

If this kid is a freshman in high school, he should focus on doing as well as he can in classes and SATs. Seems way too early to start planning for not getting in directly.

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From what you describe $$ isn't going to be a critical factor. So why not start thinking about Harvey Mudd? It is a great Engineering school and, if he REALLY wants a cal degree I think he has a better chance of getting good grades (and building transcript benies like working with faculty) at a small school like that.

Here is the doom and gloom about trying to switch from L&S.

http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/change-of-college

This is the sheet on Junior JC Transfer
http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/prospective-students/prospective-transfer-students.html

Now it DOWNPLAYS opportunities to make the switch from a Non-JC. But I have to believe that if your friends kid gets into Harvey Mudd (a very selective engineering program), does well, and wants to come to Cal that they are turning up their nose. They might. But in contrast to the JC appicant, your friends son should have 2 years under belt of developing faculty contacts that are going to result in a STELLAR set of letters that will go a long way toward sealing the deal.

SCT Junior has shown a strong interest in engineering and computer science. Nothing I would like more to see him at Cal. But we are developing other options as well.

93gobears;842272881 said:

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Good point. Probably DVC or Alameda CC.

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DVC, if the drive is OK.

I would recommend to anyone interested in structural engineering to consider Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo. It has a first rate architecture-architectural engineering (for double license as an architect and/or struct engineer). This from a licensed architect with an MArch from Cal.

Good luck to him!

socaltownie;842272910 said:

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From what you describe $$ isn't going to be a critical factor. So why not start thinking about Harvey Mudd? It is a great Engineering school and, if he REALLY wants a cal degree I think he has a better chance of getting good grades (and building transcript benies like working with faculty) at a small school like that.

Here is the doom and gloom about trying to switch from L&S.

http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/change-of-college

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Isn't Harvey Mudd much more difficult to get into than Cal Engineering? Duh, I should know, my older brother went there.

This kid is not Harvey Mudd material. And neither was I.

And money of that sorts certainly is an issue.

The JC route is a GREAT way to get into Cal. In fact, Cal used to guarantee high school seniors that went to JC and got B average, that they could get into Cal.

I think the JC will have all the first two years of classes that Cal requires. The JC costs a lot less than Cal. And the student still ends up with a Cal degree.

93gobears;842272883 said:

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This is not my strength. His father is a construction contractor without a lot of college experience but wants the best for his kids. Apparently the kid has already gone to some sort of Cal Engineering Camp and got hooked despite being the only white guy there.

What kind of Engineering degrees are available at Cal? And what are the best ways to pursue them outside of initial acceptance?

I previously heard going to L&S then taking mostly courses in engineering. How successful is that?

---

If he REALLY wants to do Engineering, then the JC route is the way to go. Going from L&S into Engineering is nearly unheard of. On the other hand, about 30%-35% of the upper division Engineering students come from JC's. Lots and lots of folks leave Engineering disciplines as lower division students at Cal - opening up a lot of slots for JC transfers as Juniors.

You need to get good grades at a JC - probably 3.5 or better as noted earlier. But, the best bet is to check and see what type of grades it takes to get into Cal Engineerg from a JC these days.

If he is primarily interested in Civil Engineering, then maybe even a 3.2 or 3.4 from the JC would get him there.

Now, that's not easy at any JC. You are still talking about plenty of Calculus, Linear Algebra, Diff EQ, three semesters of Physics, Statics, etc. etc. Getting a 3.5 in those classes at a JC won't be easy either. But, it's a far better option than getting into Cal in L&S and trying to back-door into the engineering school.

Plus - just personal experience - my education at DVC in chemistry and physics classes with only 30 students was rather excellent. Perhaps likely, even better than I would have had at Cal with 800-1000 students and counting on a TA...

As it turned out ... the best academic students at Juniors and Seniors at Cal came from JC's. I don't know why that is, but folks definitely came in very prepared. Plus the upper division Engineering classes are almost identical to the JC experience in size, etc. You get to learn from the Proj with only 20-30students in the class...

I spent 10 years recruiting engineers on campus at Cal twice a year while I was with Exxon (and, as a side note, it's the only thing I really miss about not working at Exxon after all these years - that decade on campus with the Profs was a lot of fun, actually). But, during those ten years I found that most of the very top GPA students all came from JC's. I never experienced the lower division "weed out" at Cal, but from what I heard it can be very overwhelming.

I encourage anyone to do the JC option almost from the get-go anyway...

93gobears;842272863 said:

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I have a friend with a freshman kid that is just now getting his heart set on getting an Engineering degree from Cal. They need advice. A 4.+ gpa may not be possible.

He's the QB on the frosh team and a leader, but we doubt that football will pay off.

Any advice from those that have gone the JC route into Engineering at Cal would be appreciated.

Thanks.

---

Cal MechE grad here... I don't recall many JC guys in my classes (compared to the humanities). As I think about it I'm sure there were a couple - and in general I think the JC route is pretty much perfect, as it both saves case and for most parts of Berkeley probably gives you a better chance of getting in - but doesn't sound like its nearly as easy to get into engineering that way.

Cal Poly SLO is a good backup option if Cal doesn't work out. I've worked with some excellent engineers from there. While not ranked as high UCLA has tended to place engineers reasonably well too (worked with a bunch while at Pratt & Whitney on shuttle a few years ago; of the California schools the majority were Cal, UCLA or Cal Poly SLO... nowhere near as many from SC or other UCs). Relatively small sample size but this company recruited very heavily from a select group of well-regarded engineering schools (Michigan, Purdue, etc)... none of the Cal Poly Pomona or CS Fullerton I see at my current job.

*grumble*

Cal Geek;842272924 said:

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The JC route is a GREAT way to get into Cal. In fact, Cal used to guarantee high school seniors that went to JC and got B average, that they could get into Cal.

I think the JC will have all the first two years of classes that Cal requires. The JC costs a lot less than Cal. And the student still ends up with a Cal degree.

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And, I would argue - depending on where you go - that the quality of actual learning could be superior those first two years at a JC...

txwharfrat;842272927 said:

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If he REALLY wants to do Engineering, then the JC route is the way to go. Going from L&S into Engineering is nearly unheard of. On the other hand, about 30%-35% of the upper division Engineering students come from JC's. Lots and lots of folks leave Engineering disciplines as lower division students at Cal - opening up a lot of slots for JC transfers as Juniors.

You need to get good grades at a JC - probably 3.5 or better as noted earlier. But, the best bet is to check and see what type of grades it takes to get into Cal Engineerg from a JC these days.

If he is primarily interested in Civil Engineering, then maybe even a 3.2 or 3.4 from the JC would get him there.

Now, that's not easy at any JC. You are still talking about plenty of Calculus, Linear Algebra, Diff EQ, three semesters of Physics, Statics, etc. etc. Getting a 3.5 in those classes at a JC won't be easy either. But, it's a far better option than getting into Cal in L&S and trying to back-door into the engineering school.

Plus - just personal experience - my education at DVC in chemistry and physics classes with only 30 students was rather excellent. Perhaps likely, even better than I would have had at Cal with 800-1000 students and counting on a TA...

As it turned out ... the best academic students at Juniors and Seniors at Cal came from JC's. I don't know why that is, but folks definitely came in very prepared. Plus the upper division Engineering classes are almost identical to the JC experience in size, etc. You get to learn from the Proj with only 20-30students in the class...

I spent 10 years recruiting engineers on campus at Cal twice a year while I was with Exxon (and, as a side note, it's the only thing I really miss about not working at Exxon after all these years - that decade on campus with the Profs was a lot of fun, actually). But, during those ten years I found that most of the very top GPA students all came from JC's. I never experienced the lower division "weed out" at Cal, but from what I heard it can be very overwhelming.

I encourage anyone to do the JC option almost from the get-go anyway...

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Still got connections at Exxon?

Sounds like if the grades pan out JC may work out okay. Thats a great way to go if the above is true.

txwharfrat;842272927 said:

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If he REALLY wants to do Engineering, then the JC route is the way to go. Going from L&S into Engineering is nearly unheard of. On the other hand, about 30%-35% of the upper division Engineering students come from JC's. Lots and lots of folks leave Engineering disciplines as lower division students at Cal - opening up a lot of slots for JC transfers as Juniors.

...

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Thanks. My friend is getting this full thread print out, and I greatly appreciate the advice.

goldenblue_Cal;842272919 said:

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I would recommend to anyone interested in structural engineering to consider Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo. It has a first rate architecture-architectural engineering (for double license as an architect and/or struct engineer). This from a licensed architect with an MArch from Cal.

Good luck to him!

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HA! In no way could I support this. Sorry.

Cal has the #1 Structural Engineering/Structrual Analysis program in the world. Bar none.

I was once told by my frosh surveying teacher at DVC that I should go to Cal Poly SLO because they would teach me "how to be an engineer" better than Cal would.

I would say after all these years he was right.

Where SLO might have taught me "how to be an engineer" ... Cal taught me how to think. Which is exactly what a University should be teaching.

No sense going to a trade school. Go to Cal.

I'm a BSME graduate from a decade ago. I had gotten in directly from high school into the college of engineering as part of their undeclared major. I'm not sure if this option is still around, and if it increases your chances of getting into the desired discipline within the CofE, but I remember that we were required to maintain at least a 2.0 gpa and declare a major within the CofE before the start of junior year, including EECS and other selective majors. This option is way better than L&S-undeclared, which required at least 3.0/3.5 to get into the CofE. It may be worth looking into this option too. I would recommend the JC route, as I do think it is the most economical and probably least challenging, but he may miss out on dorm life and the "college experience." Good luck!

txwharfrat;842272935 said:

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HA! In no way could I support this. Sorry.

Cal has the #1 Structural Engineering/Structrual Analysis program in the world. Bar none.

I was once told by my frosh surveying teacher at DVC that I should go to Cal Poly SLO because they would teach me "how to be an engineer" better than Cal would.

I would say after all these years he was right.

Where SLO might have taught me "how to be an engineer" ... Cal taught me how to think. Which is exactly what a University should be teaching.

No sense going to a trade school. Go to Cal.

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Perhaps...but when you're #2 in your class at a well-regarded college preparatory high school, have excellent SAT scores, take 9 AP classes (and get a 5 on every AP exam)...and still DON'T get into Cal Engineering then it's great to have a terrific option like Cal Poly SLO! My son is a freshman at Cal Poly SLO and the kids there are certainly being challenged to think along with embracing Cal Poly's philosophy of 'Learn by Doing'.

One of my favorite (and true) stories is this:
Recently a member of the team from the Society of Women Engineers at Cal Poly SLO was talking with the President at SLO before heading off to a national collegiate engineering conference & competition. She was really looking forward to competing and the President wished her well.

A few weeks later the President is walking across campus at SLO and upon seeing the SWE student he stops to ask her about the competition. She tells him how much fun it was, how much she learned, and what an amazing experience she had.

The President then asks, "And how did you do?"

The student excitedly replies, "We tied for 1st Place!"

The President congratulates her and wonders which school they must have tied? Could it have been Berkeley, MIT, Michigan, Stanford...who was it?

The student says, "Oh, it was the other team from Cal Poly!"

goldenblue_Cal;842272919 said:

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I would recommend to anyone interested in structural engineering to consider Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo. It has a first rate architecture-architectural engineering (for double license as an architect and/or struct engineer). This from a licensed architect with an MArch from Cal.

Good luck to him!

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One of mine was accepted to Cal but chose Cal Poly. Very good school, mostly Cal grad profs. Lots of pickup trucks and cake face ladies, with little diversity. The town empties when classes are out. I think one of our kickers transferred from Cal Poly after starting there for two years, just to tie the thread in.

to UCSC as well as Cal and Cal Poly.

The transfer to Cal option from UCSC if automatic, or nearly so, is a great option.

If there are summer Engineering classes at Cal, for HS students, etc. take them.

There is a Form called a Special Talent Form that any dept on campus/prof/ etc can complete for any outstanding student. From what I understand, there are some 50 spots available for applicants who have a Special Talent Form submitted. (They are due Jan 31 this year for example).

In the past, as I understood it, the Form was not even read, unless the applicant was about to be declined. And having the Form submitted still doesn't guarantee admittance by any means. The past few years, however, I understand that all the Special Talent Forms are read.

So getting acquainted with engineering faculty at Cal is a very good idea.
Thru special courses, summer school, etc etc.

Who uses this Form? I understand that the DIA uses it too, to get more applicants/athletes admitted than they already can tag. hmmm.
And any Cal prof, English, Science, etc etc. can fill one out.

The group I am a volunteer with, finds that we have recently seen about 1/3 of our applicants admitted, vs 15% or so usual instate...Calif frosh admit rate.

I don't think this Form will work for avg GPA, test scores, etc from HS.
At least I am aware of complaints from other groups who can't get who they want, admitted. Our group works with applicants with well over 4.0 gpa, excellent test scores, etc. I also have heard chatter that Cal Admissions starts their process by looking at the combined UC weighted gpa for 10th and 11th grade only....apparently not considering frosh grades. Obviously the combined gpa depends on how many AP classes the applicant has taken.....and some high schools don't offer many or any AP classes. Admissions is aware of the course offerings for HSs up and down the state. Some HSs just offer Honors courses.

Our group submits a form for every applicant talking about their skills, impact on campus, etc etc. There are some 4 questions to address dealing with specific skills, and overall personality, drive, goals etc. of the applicant.

There is also an online list of the top HSs in California and the nation as to reputation of their school.
The Top HS is Pacific Collegiate in Santa Cruz.
Most HSs only get 0-3 admits to Cal. There are some dozen or more who seem to get 8-12 admitted. And about 20 HS who have about 18-22 admitted. We pay special attention to possible applicants from this last group.

CaliforniaGoldenBear;842272874 said:

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As you surmised, Engineering directly is tough.
Alternately, enter in L&S proposing an unpopular field of study (12th Cent. Eng Lit suggests) and then transfer to Engineering; failing that, transfer to Math or Computer Science, and do an Engineering MS in grad school.
Don't know about JC to Engineering, but JC to L&S is a lock for a smart high school slacker who's seen the academic light and knuckled down.

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To get from L&S to COE, you need a REALLLLLY good L&S GPA and to take a bunch of the lower div classes that are standard for COE (Math 53/54, Physics 7A/7B, etc). If he can't swing a 4.0+ in HS, the odds are stacked against him of being able to get a good GPA in college. Not saying it's not possible, but this scenario doesn't seem all that likely. Heck without a 4.0+ in HS even getting into L&S at Cal isn't all that likely.

93gobears;842272863 said:

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I have a friend with a freshman kid that is just now getting his heart set on getting an Engineering degree from Cal. They need advice. A 4.+ gpa may not be possible.

He's the QB on the frosh team and a leader, but we doubt that football will pay off.

Any advice from those that have gone the JC route into Engineering at Cal would be appreciated.

Thanks.

---

I guess the first thing is to spell it correctly

oskigobears;842272958 said:

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to UCSC as well as Cal and Cal Poly.

The transfer to Cal option from UCSC if automatic, or nearly so, is a great option.

If there are summer Engineering classes at Cal, for HS students, etc. take them.

There is a Form called a Special Talent Form that any dept on campus/prof/ etc can complete for any outstanding student. From what I understand, there are some 50 spots available for applicants who have a Special Talent Form submitted. (They are due Jan 31 this year for example).

In the past, as I understood it, the Form was not even read, unless the applicant was about to be declined. And having the Form submitted still doesn't guarantee admittance by any means. The past few years, however, I understand that all the Special Talent Forms are read.

So getting acquainted with engineering faculty at Cal is a very good idea.
Thru special courses, summer school, etc etc.

Who uses this Form? I understand that the DIA uses it too, to get more applicants/athletes admitted than they already can tag. hmmm.
And any Cal prof, English, Science, etc etc. can fill one out.

The group I am a volunteer with, finds that we have recently seen about 1/3 of our applicants admitted, vs 15% or so usual instate...Calif frosh admit rate.

I don't think this Form will work for avg GPA, test scores, etc from HS.
At least I am aware of complaints from other groups who can't get who they want, admitted. Our group works with applicants with well over 4.0 gpa, excellent test scores, etc. I also have heard chatter that Cal Admissions starts their process by looking at the combined UC weighted gpa for 10th and 11th grade only....apparently not considering frosh grades. Obviously the combined gpa depends on how many AP classes the applicant has taken.....and some high schools don't offer many or any AP classes. Admissions is aware of the course offerings for HSs up and down the state. Some HSs just offer Honors courses.

Our group submits a form for every applicant talking about their skills, impact on campus, etc etc. There are some 4 questions to address dealing with specific skills, and overall personality, drive, goals etc. of the applicant.

There is also an online list of the top HSs in California and the nation as to reputation of their school.
The Top HS is Pacific Collegiate in Santa Cruz.
Most HSs only get 0-3 admits to Cal. There are some dozen or more who seem to get 8-12 admitted. And about 20 HS who have about 18-22 admitted. We pay special attention to possible applicants from this last group.

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Yep.

I would sy that you need to have PLENTY of back-up plans. When I applied to Cal as a sophomore at DVC I also applied to SLO - just in case. I would say he should keep his eye on the prize and do the JC route, and if he can't get into Cal CofE at that point, then Santa Cruz, SLO, SJS, Sac St, etc. all offer great options.

Someone interested in computer hardware might prefer to major in EECS in the College of Engineering; however, all others might benefit from the broader selection of electives allowed through the computer science major in the College Letters and Science.

http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/index.shtml

Cal students can petition to change colleges. The chances of having the petition granted into engineering ARE LESS THAN 1%. It just doesn't happen anymore.

Applying as a transfer from a California community college is NOT A LOCK. OUA admits roughly 20-25% of all transfer applicants each year. While priority is given to CCC applicants there are no guarantees. While these posters may have the best of intentions, go straight to the source, http://admissions.berkeley.edu/

BAMSPhD;842272980 said:

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Someone interested in computer hardware might prefer to major in EECS in the College of Engineering; however, all others might benefit from the broader selection of electives allowed through the computer science major in the College Letters and Science.

http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/index.shtml

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The only downside of doing L&S CS is that you don't get any of the COE advising resources during school, but then when you graduate COE starts hounding you with phone calls asking for donations. :headbang

93gobears;842272920 said:

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Isn't Harvey Mudd much more difficult to get into than Cal Engineering? Duh, I should know, my older brother went there.

This kid is not Harvey Mudd material. And neither was I.

And money of that sorts certainly is an issue.

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By "money" it sounds like they could well qualify for financial aid. Harvey Mudd IS very competitive but I think Cal is, in the end, a bit more.

93gobears;842272863 said:

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I have a friend with a freshman kid that is just now getting his heart set on getting an Engineering degree from Cal. They need advice. A 4.+ gpa may not be possible.

He's the QB on the frosh team and a leader, but we doubt that football will pay off.

Any advice from those that have gone the JC route into Engineering at Cal would be appreciated.

Thanks.

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I work with an engineer whose oldest son went to College of San Mateo for two years, was admitted to Cal as a Mechanical Engineering major with standing as a junior. IIRC, the son entered in 2008 and graduated in 2010.

It's probably not as daunting a route as trying to get into Cal Engineering as a freshman.

Further, my understanding is that engineering is so demanding that students are admitted into the major as freshman. It's necessitated by the depth and breadth of courses necessary to graduate with an Engineering degree.

I know of another kid who graduated from Berkeley High with a greater than 4.0 average, extracurriculars, etc. AND he also interned with the EECS faculty over the summer after his HS junior year. He applied to Cal and was rejected. Cal Poly SLO accepted him.

Admission to Cal Engineering is not easy either way. It may be less daunting going through the JC route.

MiZery;842272962 said:

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I guess the first thing is to spell it correctly

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WTF punk?

Oh, the title.... :facepalm

There's always CalTech, MIT, and Stanfurd if COE is too daunting. You have 4 bites at the apple; might get lucky and get into one of the 4.