OT: Rainy Day Dead Time Debate : Music

7,681 Views | 42 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by calumnus
TandemBear
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stivo;842279956 said:

It's a bullshit argument.

1) The greatest music has always been made by musicians who weren't doing it for the money -- think Jazz, Bluegrass, The Blues, Punk Rock, etc. Once money has entered the creative process, the soul of any music has disappeared.

2) Throughout history, musicians have almost never been rewarded financially, except for a very small time in recent history. The idea that there was or should be money in music is a modern invention. This has never stopped great musicians from making great music.

3) Record companies have a long history of being predatory and exploitative of musicians. They have corrupted and destroyed every great musical movement that musicians have ever produced.

4) Who can't afford to make music? Dirt poor blues musicians made music, homeless punk rockers made music, teenagers make music on their allowance, buskers on the corner make music.

5) If he's listening to music that sounds like it was crafted from a soulless recipe, he's clueless about what's out there. Musicians are making live, passionate, amazing music at cafes, bars, and venues all over the Bay Area and around the country. Where the heck is this dude going that he can't find them? And I'm talking real musicians who are making music out of love for making music, who are playing together, who are creative, who are using real instruments, etc.

6) All Joe Walsh has to do is turn on Kalx (Cal's radio station) and he will find an eternity of music that meets none of his stereotypes. Go Bears!


So are you arguing against Intellectual Property rights altogether, or just as they pertain to music? Should authors not expect remuneration for their written works? Just because book publishers may take advantage of writers is no justification for writers' works to be ripped off and downloaded for free.

I'm pretty surprised many on this board agree with your sentiments, given the often right-leaning political viewpoint found here. I agree that free markets should reward high achievers. I want my pilot and surgeon to be well educated and experienced. I wouldn't expect him or her to devote the time and energy needed to excel in their profession if there were no future reward. In other words, you get what you pay for.

If you do not reward accordingly, you get less people with talent willing to work for pennies. Otherwise, you're just discouraging talent from reaching its full potential. How many Mozarts never composed due to poverty or a lack of ability to be paid for their genius? We'll obviously never know. But I'm pretty sure if you reward creative genius, you'll get more of it.

After watching "Downloaded," I realize how much of a world-changer Apple was with Itunes. Sure, free music is great. But if it all becomes free, we aren't encouraging those with talent to pursue their passion. They become accountants instead to pay the mortgage and bills.
Cal88
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Your model/framework for music production of "you get what you pay for" is flawed. Most great music isn't written for financial gain, nor is its quality proportional to its production budget (in fact the correlation might be negative).
TandemBear
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Cal88;842281803 said:

Your model/framework for music production of "you get what you pay for" is flawed. Most great music isn't written for financial gain, nor is its quality proportional to its production budget (in fact the correlation might be negative).


And just because you may get more crappy music doesn't mean you won't also get more genius. Why would market forces for most other professions be stood on their head when it comes to music? We hear time and again that UC can't get the top talent if they don't pay for it. Yet this logic is immediately dismissed as flawed when applied to music?

But hey, I'm not in the music industry. So if you can back up your assertion that conventional logic is flawed with some sources, please do so.

You think a young talent who does well in school AND music is going to pursue a career as a musician when his/her parents are more prudently pushing him/her toward a career as a surgeon, lawyer, engineer, software designer because there's a better financial future in those professions? Now if talented pianists, trombonists, composers, violinists pulled down strong paychecks, we'll probably get more talented pianists, trombonists, composers and violinists.
GoBears58
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62bear;842279891 said:

I had to google both Joe Walsh and Daryl's house. This sounds like another in a litany of "back in my time... everything was better" [because we're the ones who were doing it] rants by members of an older generation.

disagree on this one..


There's great new music coming out all the time.



you are probably right but imho, it does not seem as easy as it was for Gen X'ers. Hell, all you had to do was flip on KROQ, watch Top of the Pops (UK), or even MTV to have access to new and exciting bands.. Bands that actually played instruments. The local record stores in LA and the OC were the in places for kids to go after school and look for new music or meet rock bands in person.

My teenage son and his friends go to Gilman to hear live bands because the stuff that the majority of kids listen to at school is (c)rap and hip hop. If you are not into that or the manufactured Karaoke artists then it seems a lot tougher (at least for under 21 kids that can't go to clubs) to find innovative stuff.
Cal88
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TandemBear;842281825 said:

And just because you may get more crappy music doesn't mean you won't also get more genius. Why would market forces for most other professions be stood on their head when it comes to music? We hear time and again that UC can't get the top talent if they don't pay for it. Yet this logic is immediately dismissed as flawed when applied to music?

But hey, I'm not in the music industry. So if you can back up your assertion that conventional logic is flawed with some sources, please do so.

You think a young talent who does well in school AND music is going to pursue a career as a musician when his/her parents are more prudently pushing him/her toward a career as a surgeon, lawyer, engineer, software designer because there's a better financial future in those professions? Now if talented pianists, trombonists, composers, violinists pulled down strong paychecks, we'll probably get more talented pianists, trombonists, composers and violinists.



The cost of producing music is very low, lack of capital hasn't been keeping good musicians from making great music. Kids have been playing in their garages for decades, and studio, recording and distribution costs have kept coming down.

As well, the talent manifests itself early, so that by the time they are in their early 20s, musicians who are really talented are going to have the opportunity to express themselves, and if they have something going, they will be able to build on it, even if they have to take on another job to support that passion.

The type of person that will be drawn to a lucrative career in business, law or medicine is not likely to be someone who is a gifted musician or someone who has the kind of passion for music that would compel him to have a significant musical career.
bearister
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Cal88;842282240 said:

....... Kids have been playing in their garages for decades......


Another comment Joe Walsh made on Daryl's House ( and I'm not saying he is right or wrong) is that too many modern musicians have spent too much time playing in the garage being told they are great instead of putting in their 10,000 hours playing before audiences in clubs like in the "old days." Then he said "STAY OFF MY LAWN!"
bearister
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In the words of Joe Walsh, here is Stephen Stills testifying with his mojo working on Canadian TV in 1972 (with his then band, Manassas, featuring Chris Hillman of the Byrds and Flying Burrito Brothers--yes, granted, Stills' vocals got pitchy).

Rushinbear
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GB54;842280148 said:

Most musicians will struggle as always but the difference is that social media allows a lot of self marketing. A song twittered or with a Facebook following can get millions of followers quickly


And, all but 5 of them are looking to cop the sounds for free. The jury is still out on the effectiveness of social media in growing a paying audience.

Musicians face a trade-off in this environment: how much of your work to make public in order to sell without revealing so much that your market doesn't have to buy. And, that market encourages the latter with empty promises.

Without a music industry of some kind, many good bands will labor in small clubs for peanuts and never be heard of beyond their immediate population center. Someone has to come up with a way to get musicians paid on their way to tour status.
calumnus
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Cal88;842282240 said:

The cost of producing music is very low, lack of capital hasn't been keeping good musicians from making great music. Kids have been playing in their garages for decades, and studio, recording and distribution costs have kept coming down.

As well, the talent manifests itself early, so that by the time they are in their early 20s, musicians who are really talented are going to have the opportunity to express themselves, and if they have something going, they will be able to build on it, even if they have to take on another job to support that passion.

The type of person that will be drawn to a lucrative career in business, law or medicine is not likely to be someone who is a gifted musician or someone who has the kind of passion for music that would compel him to have a significant musical career.


Agree. The old system required huge amounts of capital and depended on record labels finding and promoting talent and then a few radio stations playing that music. A few musicians got rich and famous, while many others never got their "break" and played in small venues or eventually gave up. Most of the money was made by the record labels and station owners.

Technology has greatly reduced the cost of production and distribution and democratized the music industry. It is now much more of a free market instead of a Soviet style command and control economy. There is less dependence on talent scouts and more on the market. Artists still play at small venues, but their fans, including many who have never seen them live, can find and download recordings of them on the web. Instead of a few local radio stations, sites like Pandora open up an infinite number of possible "stations" with the software searching out and finding similar artists to your tastes. Artists from anywhere in the world. When even small bands tour, they will likely have a local audience in every city they visit all made possible by the Internet. Greater "success" is now based on Darwinian forces operating on the law of large numbers rather than a record exec reaching out and giving a band life like Michelangelo's God giving life to Adam on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

Now, many may not be happy with the artists that are most popular. Just like many are not happy that our free market system produces an awful lot of awful fast food joints, but there ARE great options available out there. Moreover, just like in the case of music, the Internet and websites like Yelp can help you find those great options that suit your tastes. We live in a great time.

However, as with any revolution, it is not very popular with those who got rich under the old system.
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