gobears725;842288724 said:

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unfortunately we are very much in this together with the western european countries. i believe their strength is very dependent on having our backing.

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Just like in South Korea - our teenage sons and brothers are putting their lives at risk for bunch of ungrateful "allies." The Europeans have plenty of resources to defend their own backyard - especially for a non-NATO nation. We should have minded our own business from the get go.

To make things worse, the U.S./Ukraine soccer match may be cancelled. This is all an elaborate plan by Putin to ruin our chances with young phenom Julian Green.

MiZery;842288579 said:

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Russia just gave Ukraine an ultimatum to evacuate all their forces from the Crimean peninsula, after sending their troops in last week.

I wonder if Putin is serious about the military action, and if so, how the world will react.

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Going to war on a made up reason is just wrong! Wait a minute I see what Putin is doing. Does this look anything like going into Iraq looking for weapons of mass destruction? Still waiting to find those damn things.

Come on Europe enough is enough, 1st Georgia and now the Ukraine, sh*t or get off the pot! We can't bail everybody out!

wifeisafurd;842288649 said:

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Edit: it won't be much of a war. Russians wipe Ukrain's butts and keep going.

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Russia would whip Ukraine's butt,
or Russia might use Ukraine to wipe their own butt,
but I doubt Russia would wipe Ukraine's butt.

Not a very masculine picture, Putin at the changing table with baby wipes, talc and diapers.

Yes - Belarus was taken over by an old Communist apparatchik (sp) when the Soviet Union split up. He has had an iron hand since then. No need for Putin to act there. It is an economic basket case and no one wants it.
I was hurried in getting the post done and didn't include some relevant info of pre WW II importance. The western part of present day Ukraine was in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and fought the Russians in WW I (esp in the Carpathian region). Western Ukraine contains a lot of Catholics and people with ties to old Europe.
After WW II, a lot of Ukrainians made great efforts to move out of the Soviet Empire - they trekked westward and became displaced persons who settled in western Canada etc. Many fought with the Germans in WW II and hated the Russians.
The present dispute is one with a long gestation period.

6bear6;842288767 said:

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Good post. Lots of insight.
Just discussing this issue with a fellow in my office. He claims the possibility of taking over Belarus is unlikely. The leaders of Belarus, to put in the language of my friend, are Putin's bitches. They do anything and everything Moscow desires. Is that also your understanding?

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One of the most corrupt countries in Europe.

KoreAmBear;842288582 said:

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Sounds scary. I think this is a job for General Clancy Pendergast.

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Clancy Pendergast was a socialist. His entire military strategy was based on the socialist paradigm and duty to the state. At no time did he fraternize or reassure the men and in the end that lead to his demise.

CAL6371;842288754 said:

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6Bear6 - Nice post. I have read a lot about Russia and visited the Soviet Union in May of 1979 for the Grand Tour (Intourist agency). A few additional facts - Ukranians have their on language, although the great majority are bilingual. Only in two places we stopped did the locals say they were not Russians - the Ukraine (Kiev) and Georgia (Tblisi). Most of the shops also had their signs in two languages.
In World War II the Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt (traditional greeting) in the hope that Hitler was better than Lenin and Stalin (who starved millions of Ukranians in the great famine). He was the same (see Alexander Dallin's classic German Rule in Russia and Mark Mazower recent Hitler's Empire) and they then turned on him. Many Ukrainians fought in the Soviet Army during WW II and there was even a Ukrainian Front at the Battle of Berlin. However, many of the Ukranians did not want the Russians back. They formed the Ukranian Insurectionary Army (UPA) and fought the Soviets using guerilla warfare for years (see John Armstrong Ukrainian Nationalism) after WW II. The Soviet state crushed them and on March 5, 1950 killed the leader of the UPA Shukhevych in Lvov (now Lviv).
Khrushchev, who was Ukrainian, put the Crimea into the Ukraine Republic in the 1950s. A big mistake - he also gave it Rostov on the Don and Kharkov (which were always part of Russia. The Eastern Ukraine and Crimea (remember the Crimean War? If not, see Orlando Figes excellent recent work The Crimean War) are full of Russians. Not a docile and complacent minority to have.
My prediction - Putin takes the eastern part of the Ukraine and Crimea and incorporates them into Russia.

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:acclaim: good for you

Russia has already lost more money in the decline of the ruble and losses on the stock markets (which will p|ss the oligarchs off) than they spent on their Sochi extravaganza.

I'm just wondering when the international bankers will start sending back to Ukraine some of the $70 Billion that Yucko and his cohorts stole. The pictures of Yucko's "dacha", which he gave to himself, are sufficient to educate even the most doubting as to why Ukrainian people said 'enough'.
Or, maybe not. Most posting on this topic get F's for history and political science. Yucko was a Putin Puppet. He'll be lucky to get a bullet in the head and a hidden Siberia grave rather than disappearing into the Moscow KGB prison (Putin knows where that is).

Ukraine cannot be divided as their is no homogeneous "eastern part" although a couple of oblasts could be partitioned but not their entirety.

Putin wants Ukrainian territory to make up for the hockey gold medal he was denied. It's all the fault of the Americans and Finns who kicked Russian butt on the ice. :p

MiZery;842288579 said:

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Russia just gave Ukraine an ultimatum to evacuate all their forces from the Crimean peninsula, after sending their troops in last week.

I wonder if Putin is serious about the military action, and if so, how the world will react.

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Anyone recall Obama mocking Romney for saying Russia was our number one geopolitical foe in one of the debates - something like "the 80's wants its policy back?"

dajo9;842288665 said:

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So, why affiliate Obama with Carter who is widely regarded as a weak foreign policy president if not trying to take shots at Obama for being weak? The Ukraine crisis doesn't show Obama is weak. It shows that our hand in this particular matter is weak. So why the cheap shot on the President other than domestic politics?

Nice try.

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It was a shot at Obama's (and the UN's) chest pounding despite being ineffective when it comes to stopping aggression, which was very Carter like. I thought you meant I was taking a shot at Obama because of his domestic policies, which is not the case. I know the rule from the Lyndon Johnson years was you could only attack the President on domestic issues (or so says Doris Kearns-Goodwin), but I didn't know that rule applied to Bear Insider.

The Cold War is not over yet

MolecularBear007;842288796 said:

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Just like in South Korea - our teenage sons and brothers are putting their lives at risk for bunch of ungrateful "allies." The Europeans have plenty of resources to defend their own backyard - especially for a non-NATO nation. We should have minded our own business from the get go.

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our wonderful State Department phone call that the Russians posted on twitter. We were going to send Kerry in to make peace in order to "f@ck the EU" which is incapable of agreeing on anything (all EU members must agree to actions against another country). Not my wording - the head of our European Section. So even our own top diplomats don't think the EU is capable of doing anything.

Some damn fine historians on this board. I'm impressed. I know bits an pieces of history (a historical knowledge 1%er maybe) but you guys are really a wealth of information. Go Bears!

wifeisafurd;842288845 said:

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It was a shot at Obama's (and the UN's) chest pounding despite being ineffective when it comes to stopping aggression, which was very Carter like. I thought you meant I was taking a shot at Obama because of his domestic policies, which is not the case. I know the rule from the Lyndon Johnson years was you could only attack the President on domestic issues (or so says Doris Kearns-Goodwin), but I didn't know that rule applied to Bear Insider.

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I still think you misunderstand my comments. That's ok, I think most others get it.

so ... Putin finally spoke
"When asked about the armed men who have taken over Crimean government buildings wearing military uniforms without insignia, he said they were not Russian, defying the observations of numerous journalists. Military experts said they were too well-trained to be anything but an elite force.

"Look at former Soviet republics," he said. "You can go to a store and buy a uniform. Were these Russian soldiers? No, they're very well-trained self-defense forces."

And all the troops and materiel flowing into Ukraine on planes and ferries across the 2.7 mile wide Kerch strait from Russia are ... what? Pro-Soviet Ukrainians who got lost on their way to Crimea?
Uh, sure, Czar Vlad ... just a well-trained self-defense forces who bought their uniforms and weapons and a few warships at the local surplus store.
:woohoo

It would be great if someone gives McCain directions to the village that's missing an idiot. Or maybe he can buy a fighter plane at his local Navy surplus store and fly away to do ... whatever moves him. Loony Lindsey can be his co-pilot.

So what is the USA doing? This from the BBC.

Quote:

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America is concentrating on meeting Ukraine's four most pressing needs, a US treasury statement says. These are:
Implementing critical economic reforms and cushioning their impact on vulnerable Ukrainians
Conducting free, fair and inclusive elections, with robust involvement by a strong and independent civil society and media
Combating corruption and recovering stolen assets
Withstanding "politically motivated trade actions" by Russia.
12:47: The US is sending technical advisers to help the authorities in Ukraine manage immediate pressures in financial markets and locate stolen assets, a White House official tells Reuters.

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Supporting the Ukraine economy in the short-term is far cheaper than spending trillions on wars of choice (and buying and filling thousands of body bags), enriching Karzai and his family in the process.

running bear;842288624 said:

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Sadly, I don't think there is much the US or NATO can do. There is a large distance between the Crimea and the bulk of their forces. Bombers? Bombing or any bullets headed at Russians troops could escalate into using nukes (maybe). They have a ship load of nukes aimed at us and that makes them different from Libya, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. And the Russian have a history of being sensitive about their best warm water port.

Sad to say, but the easy option could be the best. Let them invade and get tied up in a prolonged occupation. It could sap their strength in the same way Iraq and Afghanistan have sapped the US's. The Ukraine is a lot of territory to have to occupy.

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We should deport all of the Russian Mafia that are in the USA and stop the influx of Russian women looking for American husbands. That would teach them to mess with us.

Interesting poll results, probably applicable to most topics.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/

Articulate discussion of the issue:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/

Bobodeluxe;842288882 said:

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Interesting poll results, probably applicable to most topics.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/

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Indeed.

On a more positive note, here are some things America is doing to help Ukraine.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/04/fact-sheet-international-support-ukraine

Quote:

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"The United States is deploying an interagency team of experts to Kyiv this week to begin to work with their Ukrainian counterparts to identify assets that may have been stolen, identify their current location, and assist in returning those assets to Ukraine."

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bearister;842288928 said:

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Articulate discussion of the issue:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/

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The former ambassador, at furd, should talk to that Russian expert at furd, Kindasleazy Rice. Maybe she could tell him all she knows about WMDs and mushroom clouds as smoking guns ... oh, wait ... she f'd that up royally.

Not to worry. The President has once again drawn a hard and fast line in the sand: until Putin relents, no Russian Vodka will be served at White House parties.

Deutsch;842288933 said:

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Not to worry. The President has once again drawn a hard and fast line in the sand: until Putin relents, no Russian Vodka will be served at White House parties.

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Easy to tell on which side of the Onion poll that you are, although you may be a recessive gene hybrid of the two sides.

Where can we enlist for The Battle of Stalingrad Redux in defense of our country?

anyone know the deal with russia saying that if we impose sanctions, that they could cripple our economy?

gobears725;842288966 said:

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anyone know the deal with russia saying that if we impose sanctions, that they could cripple our economy?

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Russian hookers know all our secrets.

gobears725;842288966 said:

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anyone know the deal with russia saying that if we impose sanctions, that they could cripple our economy?

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The EU trade with Russia is about 20 x ours. We do import petroleum products but I suspect we could make that up. Some of the Europeans on the other hand get up to 30% of their energy from Russia.

I think there is a boomerang aspect to this question that Putin is ignoring. It's his economy that will go into the crapper-in fact his stock market already is plummeting. This is the downside of being a capitalist

In the end I think Angela Merkel and Putin will decide a lot of this (from an economic if not military standpoint)

Deutsch;842288933 said:

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Not to worry. The President has once again drawn a hard and fast line in the sand: until Putin relents, no Russian Vodka will be served at White House parties.

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That is much more than the opposition party is willing to commit to doing.
The party that calls you a wimp if you do nothing; but moves to impeach if you do something.

SonOfCalVa;842288930 said:

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The former ambassador, at furd, should talk to that Russian expert at furd, Kindasleazy Rice. Maybe she could tell him all she knows about WMDs and mushroom clouds as smoking guns ... oh, wait ... she f'd that up royally.

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I think she got exactly what she wanted.

Methinks Dick should get most of the credit here. He knew the truth. Period.

GB54;842288975 said:

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The EU trade with Russia is about 20 x ours. We do import petroleum products but I suspect we could make that up. Some of the Europeans on the other hand get up to 30% of their energy from Russia.

I think there is a boomerang aspect to this question that Putin is ignoring. It's his economy that will go into the crapper-in fact his stock market already is plummeting. This is the downside of being a capitalist

In the end I think Angela Merkel and Putin will decide a lot of this (from an economic if not military standpoint)

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sounds like Putin is playing a game of everyone loses, Russia loses, we lose a little, EU loses. does russia have more to gain by getting what they want in ukraine than what they lose by pissing everyone off? on the surface to me it doesnt look like it and is more about feeding the ego of what is looking like someone who is mad

gobears725;842288984 said:

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sounds like Putin is playing a game of everyone loses, Russia loses, we lose a little, EU loses. does russia have more to gain by getting what they want in ukraine than what they lose by pissing everyone off? on the surface to me it doesnt look like it and is more about feeding the ego of what is looking like someone who is mad

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Putin, ex-KGB, wants respect (and to be the newest Czar) but what has he done to earn respect.
Recent events in which Russia set itself up for jokes and disrespect
... the corruption and costs in building a Winter Olympics in a temperate zone, importing salt from Switzerland to try to maintain the snow, the yellow water, two toilets in a small stall, firehoses in showers, the bobsledder destroying a cheap bathroom door because he got locked in, all of which was tweeted and Facebooked and YouTubed, watched and laughed at by the world
... and not winning the men's hockey gold, in fact no medal thanks to USA and Finland (which Russia tried to get), a medal that was very important to Putin and Russia, their sport, or so they thought
... and the boycott of the Olympics by world leaders because of Ukraine and
the anti-gay/anti-human rights which was also tweeted, FB'd and YouTubed as the Cossacks used whips on Pussy Riot
... and now Putin finally talking, telling ridiculous lies about NO Russian troops in Crimea, just home-defenders with uniforms from surplus stores, all the while world journalist saw the tanks and trucks and warships, etc. as well as using people speaking Russian being HIS people that needed defending
... and defending Yucko as the true leader of Ukraine after everyone, especially people in Kiev, see his dacha in all its stolen glory, learning about the stolen $70billion, all the while people see how peaceful protesters in Russia are rounded up based on new "laws" passed to control protests.

Hope Merkle can talk sense to Putin as they communicate in German.
Germany is Russia's biggest trading partner.
But her recent comments suggest that she thinks he's crazy and has gone over the edge.

SonOfCalVa;842288989 said:

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....Hope Merkle can talk sense to Putin as they communicate in German.Germany is Russia's biggest trading partner.
But her recent comments suggest that she thinks he's crazy and has gone over the edge.

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I hope Angela dresses appropriately since Putin has been known to have a wandering eye when speaking with her.

Not my image, but nice and clean [source].

B.A. Bearacus;842289006 said:

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Not my image, but nice and clean [source].

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"A picture is worth .... " but, in this case, orders of magnitude more.
Great post.

Ukraine crisis lookalike sub-thread:

putin................................................................this dog