I'm watching it now on HBOE. But it'll be on again at 10pm on HBOW.

So far UNC and Oklahoma being covered.

A former Memphis football is profiled - he graduated with a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies. He graduated despite receiving 13 F's and 7 D's during his time at Memphis. He has cognitive skill tests at the level of a middle schooler and now works menial labor.

When you wonder why Cal struggles so much with APR, it is because it is not a level playing field.

grandmastapoop;842296714 said:

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I'm watching it now on HBOE. But it'll be on again at 10pm on HBOW.

So far UNC and Oklahoma being covered.

A former Memphis football is profiled - he graduated with a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies. He graduated despite receiving 13 F's and 7 D's during his time at Memphis. He has cognitive skill tests at the level of a middle schooler and now works menial labor.

When you wonder why Cal struggles so much with APR, it is because it is not a level playing field.

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i disagree. its not up to Cal to compare itself to a school like memphis. our guys need to be able to do their schoolwork at Cal and we need to recruit players interested in getting a degree at Cal or at the very least learning here. the standard is and should be much higher in that regard and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard

gobears725;842296718 said:

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i disagree. its not up to Cal to compare itself to a school like memphis. our guys need to be able to do their schoolwork at Cal and we need to recruit players interested in getting a degree at Cal or at the very least learning here. the standard is and should be much higher in that regard and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard

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I agree. We should. But I hope that in our rush to "fix" the APR, we do not simply turn into a diploma mill for our athletes.

gobears725;842296718 said:

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i disagree. its not up to Cal to compare itself to a school like memphis. our guys need to be able to do their schoolwork at Cal and we need to recruit players interested in getting a degree at Cal or at the very least learning here. the standard is and should be much higher in that regard and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard

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Yes, but the point is that at the much lower Memphis standard, the guy got f's and D's and they graduated him anyway.

Bottom line is that APR is a sham. I don't believe these athletes are doing ANY better then they did before the requirement. The NCAA can pat itself on the back if they want, but all they have done is gotten football schools to paper over their academic failings and hand a meaningless degree to these guys on the way out. We (thankfully) can't do that to the same extent most schools can.

Cal needs to set its own standard in line with the academic reputation of the school and meet that. Something I don't believe we have ever done or are close to doing.

grandmastapoop;842296719 said:

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I agree. We should. But I hope that in our rush to "fix" the APR, we do not simply turn into a diploma mill for our athletes.

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I also hope we don't have years like last year on the football field. The bottomline is that we will just have to find enough kids who are good students and good football players and then offer them money. :-)

The schools are recruiting kids who should not be in college. A C+ average at almost any high school is a trivial achievement, and should not be rewarded with a four year scholarship anywhere. Let the JC's do one of the jobs they were designed for, a second chance for less motivated kids.

Bobodeluxe;842296809 said:

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The schools are recruiting kids who should not be in college. A C+ average at almost any high school is a trivial achievement, and should not be rewarded with a four year scholarship anywhere. Let the JC's do one of the jobs they were designed for, a second chance for less motivated kids.

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I agree with your main thesis; but let's not get lost in the argument and dump on JC's. There are many "qualified" students in JC's who are there because they must live at home for financial reasons and cannot afford to go to a college away from home for 4 years. Cal admits many of these JC students who had stellar HS grades but no money.

FYI: No I did not attend a JC; but I have talked to many of the JC transfer students who decided to come to Cal only after receiving a scholarship of some sort to defray the costs.

grandmastapoop;842296714 said:

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A former Memphis football is profiled - he graduated with a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies. He graduated despite receiving 13 F's and 7 D's during his time at Memphis. He has cognitive skill tests at the level of a middle schooler and now works menial labor.

When you wonder why Cal struggles so much with APR, it is because it is not a level playing field.

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Then, on top of this you realize that over 40% of FBS football players fail to graduate. When a guy who with 13 F's and 7 D's got through, imagine how badly off the guys who couldn't make it through are.

The college football system is a sham. Everyone knows it.

82gradDLSdad;842296798 said:

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I also hope we don't have years like last year on the football field. The bottomline is that we will just have to find enough kids who are good students and good football players [SIZE="4"]and then offer them money. :-)[/SIZE]

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A nice segue to the Unionization thread.

KevBear;842297293 said:

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Then, on top of this you realize that over 40% of FBS football players fail to graduate. When a guy who with 13 F's and 7 D's got through, imagine how badly off the guys who couldn't make it through are.

The college football system is a sham. Everyone knows it.

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Indeed, it is. And the costs are horrendous.
College football has become too big to NOT fail.

It could happen that the current for-profit football at the college level will collapse, resulting in either an Ivy-type model or the long-needed semi-pro/farm team model. Many schools would just drop out and rent their stadiums to whomever for whatever.

Especially at public schools, tax-payer funded, the public will demand a change since education is the core, not football. How ridiculous is it that the highest paid public employee in most states, by a vast amount, is a college coach, usually football.
California has two systems of higher education: Universities of California and the State Universities, all of which have football teams ... Humboldt State to UC-San Diego. The total net costs for funding football, if they were known, is staggering.

Football is a unique American sport. Rugby and soccer are international sports, and far less costly in terms of expense and injuries and seem now that they would be much better choices for public universities.
Could Cal Rugby fill CMS? The team's record speaks for itself - and it's more fun to watch as the action never stops.

SonOfCalVa;842297312 said:

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Indeed, it is. And the costs are horrendous.
College football has become too big to NOT fail.

It could happen that the current for-profit football at the college level will collapse, resulting in either an Ivy-type model or the long-needed semi-pro/farm team model. Many schools would just drop out and rent their stadiums to whomever for whatever.

Especially at public schools, tax-payer funded, the public will demand a change since education is the core, not football. How ridiculous is it that the highest paid public employee in most states, by a vast amount, is a college coach, usually football.
California has two systems of higher education: Universities of California and the State Universities, all of which have football teams ... Humboldt State to UC-San Diego. The total net costs for funding football, if they were known, is staggering.

Football is a unique American sport. Rugby and soccer are international sports, and far less costly in terms of expense and injuries and seem now that they would be much better choices for public universities.
Could Cal Rugby fill CMS? The team's record speaks for itself - and it's more fun to watch as the action never stops.

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It is unfair to consider the "cost" of football except in terms of the net cost. For example, at Cal, football makes millions of dollars net profit that helps pay for other sports. Now, this is not going to be true at some of the schools you mentioned, but I can't stand the discussion of the "costs" of football, when we are talking about Cal, and the fact that Cal football makes a profit is ignored.

68great;842296850 said:

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I agree with your main thesis; but let's not get lost in the argument and dump on JC's. There are many "qualified" students in JC's who are there because they must live at home for financial reasons and cannot afford to go to a college away from home for 4 years. Cal admits many of these JC students who had stellar HS grades but no money.

FYI: No I did not attend a JC; but I have talked to many of the JC transfer students who decided to come to Cal only after receiving a scholarship of some sort to defray the costs.

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There is no dump intended. ONE of the reasons for the existence of the JC system is to get lower performers up to speed. English R1A is English R1A. It should have never been taught at a UC. I am a very poor writer, with sixth grade spelling abilities, and I didn't have to take Subject A, as did 70% of my entering freshman class. That is just crazy!

:rant

grandmastapoop;842297352 said:

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It is unfair to consider the "cost" of football except in terms of the net cost. For example, at Cal, football makes millions of dollars net profit that helps pay for other sports. Now, this is not going to be true at some of the schools you mentioned, but I can't stand the discussion of the "costs" of football, when we are talking about Cal, and the fact that Cal football makes a profit is ignored.

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The Unionization suit could affect all schools that have football teams and perhaps extend to other sports. Cal is just one of many hundreds. Whatever the outcome of that suit, the discussion will continue. That suit is just the first shot across the bow and may hit.

That Cal makes a "net profit" is actually irrelevant, to me, although it's great that it does compared to the alternative. It's almost guaranteed that the price to fans to attend games will continue to increase, without even considering the "unionization" possibilities. But the discussion is now about much more than Income minus Expenses. Northwestern, an academic university, has now introduced the players into the equation.

College football has changed for the worse and the trend is down. Witness the huge decline in the Cal in-stadium "game day experience" to gain extra commercial income to sustain the "net profit" (not to mention paying for the CMS reconditioning). Cal has major benefactors but nothing on the order of Knight or Arillaga or Pickens; neither is there a huge football-factory fan base that lives for and contributes big bucks to football.

It's great that Cal recruiting now has academic preparation and capability prominent as a big qualifier for offers/scholarships. Many of these guys have dreams of the NFL; a few will make it. But preparation for a professional career in football (and other sports) should NOT be the point of college athletics, especially at Cal.

Hope we win more; guaranteed there will be losses. But even the goal of the Rose Bowl is diminished as that game isn't even close to what it once was: Big 10 vs Pac8 (and its former and current manifestations). The Rose Bowl is just another post-season game, a venue in which someone will make money.

Time will tell. The discussion will continue.
Maybe the AD should consider passing out a sheet on the rules of rugby and a video of Cal rugby highlights and maybe a short half-time demo. That might be more exciting than the football game being played.
Yeah, heresy :p

SonOfCalVa;842297374 said:

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The Unionization suit could affect all schools that have football teams and perhaps extend to other sports. Cal is just one of many hundreds. Whatever the outcome of that suit, the discussion will continue. That suit is just the first shot across the bow and may hit.

That Cal makes a "net profit" is actually irrelevant, to me, although it's great that it does compared to the alternative. It's almost guaranteed that the price to fans to attend games will continue to increase, without even considering the "unionization" possibilities. But the discussion is now about much more than Income minus Expenses. Northwestern, an academic university, has now introduced the players into the equation.

College football has changed for the worse and the trend is down. Witness the huge decline in the Cal in-stadium "game day experience" to gain extra commercial income to sustain the "net profit" (not to mention paying for the CMS reconditioning). Cal has major benefactors but nothing on the order of Knight or Arillaga or Pickens; neither is there a huge football-factory fan base that lives for and contributes big bucks to football.

It's great that Cal recruiting now has academic preparation and capability prominent as a big qualifier for offers/scholarships. Many of these guys have dreams of the NFL; a few will make it. But preparation for a professional career in football (and other sports) should NOT be the point of college athletics, especially at Cal.

Hope we win more; guaranteed there will be losses. But even the goal of the Rose Bowl is diminished as that game isn't even close to what it once was: Big 10 vs Pac8 (and its former and current manifestations). The Rose Bowl is just another post-season game, a venue in which someone will make money.

Time will tell. The discussion will continue.
Maybe the AD should consider passing out a sheet on the rules of rugby and a video of Cal rugby highlights and maybe a short half-time demo. That might be more exciting than the football game being played.
Yeah, heresy :p

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Well the Rose Bowl still implies that we win our conference outright which is in reality what we're all really hoping for. I don't think anybody would trade going to the Rose Bowl on other terms for the chance to just win the conference outright again.

StillNoStanfurdium;842297426 said:

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Well the Rose Bowl still implies that we win our conference outright which is in reality what we're all really hoping for. I don't think anybody would trade going to the Rose Bowl on other terms for the chance to just win the conference outright again.

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Very true.
There was 1975 and 2004 ... close but no cigar.
2007 ... almost #1 but then .......... and the parachute didn't open.

Just as a thought experiment, let's assume that the perfect solution to the problems with college football is to move towards the baseball model: a minor-league football system, for those athletes coming out of high school with no academic aspirations; and college football with rigorously enforced academic standards (whether or not this means no scholarships...don't know. doesn't matter).

What would the landscape look like? Would minor-league football be as popular as minor-league baseball (ie, not very)? Would 100,000 people come out to watch student-athletes play football? Or would college football become as popular as college baseball (ie, not very)? Would any universities shut down their football programs rather than switch to the Ivy model? Would the SEC ever be able to compete?