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Northwestern University football players are employees of the school and are therefore entitled to a union election, Peter Sung Ohr, the regional director of the National Labor Relations Board, said in a ruling released Wednesday afternoon.

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,6454823.story

SoCalBear323;842296895 said:

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,6454823.story

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Great, so if they get injured again when we play them we'll have to deal with the union?

This is pretty interesting. I wonder if it will have an actual effect on the college football landscape long term.

StillNoStanfurdium;842296897 said:

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Great, so if they get injured again when we play them we'll have to deal with the union?

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No, but they are preparing to strike unless their demands are met. They are requesting a 3 minute rest period for every 8 offensive plays against an up tempo offense.

Solidarity against the Man!!!

CalBearRJ;842296899 said:

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This is pretty interesting. I wonder if it will have an actual effect on the college football landscape long term.

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several appeals still left. This issue will not be finished for some time, and the legislature could get involved on either the state or federal level.

Up against the wall in Evanston

What is ironic about this is these guys are the least exploited . They are admitted to a school they would have never got in without football. They get a free ride worth in excess of $200 grand and they almost always get a degree from a prestigious University.

What if colleges simply choose to "go Ivy" and eliminate athletic scholarships? Players can't go to the NFL from HS under the current CBA, so most would still opt to go to college. Might make JC ball more attractive if players have to pay their own way to school and almost certainly would make "cheap" (I use the word advisedly) state schools more compelling. Be careful what you wish for.

59bear;842296918 said:

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What if colleges simply choose to "go Ivy" and eliminate athletic scholarships? Players can't go to the NFL from HS under the current CBA, so most would still opt to go to college. Might make JC ball more attractive if players have to pay their own way to school and almost certainly would make "cheap" (I use the word advisedly) state schools more compelling. Be careful what you wish for.

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With all the money involved? No freaking way. I see this settling at an increased stipend.

Better yet have the NFL set up a paid intern program

Apparently Northwestern's President emeritus said last week that a decision like this (allowing the unionization) could result in Northwestern leaving Division I football. If I could ask, would it be too much to have that happen before August 30th? I'm totally fine starting the year with a forfeit victory.

Here's a link to the CNN Story with the quote.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/us/northwestern-football-union/

Quote:

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Last week, Northwestern University's president emeritus said that if the football players were successful forming a union, he could see the prestigious private institution giving up Division I football.

"If we got into collective bargaining situations, I would not take for granted that the Northwesterns of the world would continue to play Division I sports," Henry Bienen said at the annual conference for the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics

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I can't see colleges (well, maybe the SEC) being willing to accept athletes as employees so I think some action to preclude that result will occur. Since one of the key points in the decision was that the scholarships are "dependent on performance", perhaps just making all scholarships fully guaranteed would change the status.

GB54;842296908 said:

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What is ironic about this is these guys are the least exploited . They are admitted to a school they would have never got in without football. They get a free ride worth in excess of $200 grand and they almost always get a degree from a prestigious University.

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It is a "full-ride" not a "free-ride". Student-athletes put in over 50 hours a week for their sport. Not to mention the untold hours they put in training in the summers and off season. Besides, some random student isn't going to potentially suffer from career ending injury or lifelong illness due to their pursuit of their degree. I'm not saying kids should be paid or unionized, but playing football isn't always the jackpot that many people seem to think it is.

Wouldn't have expected any other result from the pro-union NLRB.

As employees, they would lose amateur status and be ineligible. That would be an awesome slap in the face.

Son-of-California;842296940 said:

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It is a "full-ride" not a "free-ride". Student-athletes put in over 50 hours a week for their sport. Not to mention the untold hours they put in training in the summers and off season. Besides, some random student isn't going to potentially suffer from career ending injury or lifelong illness due to their pursuit of their degree. I'm not saying kids should be paid or unionized, but playing football isn't always the jackpot that many people seem to think it is.

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The maybe they should get a academic scholarship instead and quit crying.

What's with all the hatters?

Yeah these guys get schollies but if you read the article and other reports, these guys are acknowledging they get scholarships but their point is they want some long term medical care for stuff like concussions and enough money to cover the full cost of going to school.

Asking for this stuff isn't crazy or outrageous given how much $$$ college football pulls in for the power conferences, admin and coaches...not to mention all the TV outlets. What is crazy is CFB is a multi-billion dollar industry based on amateur student, non-employees.

BTW, good for the NU student-athletes for applying their education to reality.

Son-of-California;842296940 said:

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It is a "full-ride" not a "free-ride". Student-athletes put in over 50 hours a week for their sport. Not to mention the untold hours they put in training in the summers and off season. Besides, some random student isn't going to potentially suffer from career ending injury or lifelong illness due to their pursuit of their degree. I'm not saying kids should be paid or unionized, but playing football isn't always the jackpot that many people seem to think it is.

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My point is that a kid at Stanford or Northwestern can get lifetime benefits because he will graduate with a prestigious degree that will mean lifelong earnings. It's the kid at Miss State who gets neither a degree or to the NFL that is exploited

beelzebear;842296947 said:

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What's with all the hatters?

Yeah these guys get schollies but if you read the article and other reports, these guys are acknowledging they get scholarships but their point is they want some long term medical care for stuff like concussions and enough money to cover the full cost of going to school.

Asking for this stuff isn't crazy or outrageous given how much $$$ college football pulls in for the power conferences, admin and coaches...not to mention all the TV outlets. What is crazy is CFB is a multi-billion dollar industry based on amateur student, non-employees.

BTW, good for the NU student-athletes for applying their education to reality.

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Yeah I don't understand it either. There are literally billions of dollars floating around the system-- and the actual people without whose efforts there would be no system are being attacked for wanting even the most basic of remuneration? Health care for injuries suffered while playing and being able to live above subsistence level are small prices to pay.

Whether or not one agrees with the principle of 19 year olds making money to play a game, the fact remains that they bring in a lot of revenue; at some point it becomes exploitative (and I think that point was reached a long time ago).

GB54;842296950 said:

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My point is that a kid at Stanford or Northwestern can get lifetime benefits because he will graduate with a prestigious degree that will mean lifelong earnings. It's the kid at Miss State who gets neither a degree or to the NFL that is exploited

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This ruling will initiate a domino effect that will eventually help public school players down the road if it is upheld. This is merely the 1st step.

Their coach and players were testifying against each other in court, just a few months after one of the worst collapses in college football history. I like our chances against them.

Other than Sac State, I think this is our most winnable game.

ayetee11;842296942 said:

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As employees, they would lose amateur status and be ineligible. That would be an awesome slap in the face.

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That would be a pretty interesting and easy result. The question is whether all amateur athletics are in danger due to this ruling. And does it apply equally to rev and non rev sports. I mean it's going to be a hard sell for women's lax to unionize.

Hell, if there is a federal ruling that says receiving money for playing a sport makes one an employee, why wouldn't schools just terminate sports that don't generate revenue. I don't see that Title IX would apply to employment. There are definitely careers that have more men than women and more women than men.... there is no proportionality requirement when hiring the best available. Have a tryout for a 'unisex' sport and see who is the best available 'employee'. That's what the pro leagues essentially do. (I'm not advocating the demolition of women's sports at all, but pointing out the consequence if said athletes are 'employees', especially at schools where their main reason for being is education).

So a very interesting ruling with lots of consequences some will be very unintentional and costly for amateur athletics. Big enough that maybe the federal gov't and congress will look to rewrite laws regarding sports and employment.

NWU president isn't so offbase saying a union could cause NWU to leave D1. Ivy League model + need based ACADEMIC scholarship (hell make it 4 years and schools will think twice about mercenaries) + maybe even a small talent stipend ... that might be far more palatable than organized labor negotiations. And it might be more than just NW that prefers that... we may have two separate college divisions.

And Cal is more at the whims of others still due to our $450 million debt... but say whatever UCLA, Stanford, USC choose won't be so bad if we stick together.

This is intriguing as I did not expect this outcome, even at this stage. But assuming this decision were to be upheld, what would be the unintended consequences of such a ruling:

1. Football players are employees that are compensated for their employment as athletes... does this mean that they will need to report such "income" to the IRS and pay income taxes on the full value of their compensation (up to 70k+ a year at some private institutions)... Still much cheaper than paying what the other students are paying, but are athletes going to chose cheaper options when they are still on the hook for 15-20% of the cost of tuition in the form of income tax. This may even preclude some poor athletes from going to school at all.

2. Athletes lose amateur status and any school with athletes on athletic scholarship is not eligible to compete as part of the NCAA with said athletes... Harvard wins the first NCAA playoff!

3. NCAA member institutions choose to drop athletic scholarships entirely, only providing academic scholarships to students that are not dependent on athletic performance. Athletes can use their athletic talents to get into a school and then drop off the team, while being guaranteed to remain on scholarship at a university they could not otherwise be accepted at.

4. Pay negotiated as part of collective bargaining forces ADs to drop all non-revenue sports in order to stay financially viable. Most mens sports and all but a few women's sports are dropped to club level in order to stay compliant with title IX

5. ADs drop D1 collegiate athletics entirely, only supporting club programs that are minimally funded by the universities.


This is a pretty interesting thing to think about, and while I think some of the more extreme examples of the result of this ruling would be averted by a change in the laws explicitly voted on by Congress to carve out an exemption for college athletes, it is fun to think about the effects of such a ruling.

briloker;842296963 said:

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This is intriguing as I did not expect this outcome, even at this stage. But assuming this decision were to be upheld, what would be the unintended consequences of such a ruling:

1. Football players are employees that are compensated for their employment as athletes... does this mean that they will need to report such "income" to the IRS and pay income taxes on the full value of their compensation (up to 70k+ a year at some private institutions)... Still much cheaper than paying what the other students are paying, but are athletes going to chose cheaper options when they are still on the hook for 15-20% of the cost of tuition in the form of income tax. This may even preclude some poor athletes from going to school at all.

2. Athletes lose amateur status and any school with athletes on athletic scholarship is not eligible to compete as part of the NCAA with said athletes... Harvard wins the first NCAA playoff!

3. NCAA member institutions choose to drop athletic scholarships entirely, only providing academic scholarships to students that are not dependent on athletic performance. Athletes can use their athletic talents to get into a school and then drop off the team, while being guaranteed to remain on scholarship at a university they could not otherwise be accepted at.

4. Pay negotiated as part of collective bargaining forces ADs to drop all non-revenue sports in order to stay financially viable. Most mens sports and all but a few women's sports are dropped to club level in order to stay compliant with title IX

5. ADs drop D1 collegiate athletics entirely, only supporting club programs that are minimally funded by the universities.


This is a pretty interesting thing to think about, and while I think some of the more extreme examples of the result of this ruling would be averted by a change in the laws explicitly voted on by Congress to carve out an exemption for college athletes, it is fun to think about the effects of such a ruling.

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Football powerhouse schools get better since they have the revenue to compensate players either at all or at a higher rate than other schools (and they can continue current practices basically and just do it above the table) while public schools and smaller programs start losing recruiting battles since they can't keep up with the new arms race in paying college players or providing benefits let alone the arms races in facilities and coaching.

If you think this development would be good for Cal Football's success I think you'd be sadly mistaken. It will squarely de-level the playing field.

briloker;842296963 said:

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This is a pretty interesting thing to think about, and while I think some of the more extreme examples of the result of this ruling would be averted by a change in the laws explicitly voted on by Congress to carve out an exemption for college athletes, it is fun to think about the effects of such a ruling.

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I do think this will get to congress for some kind of resolution... too big of consequences when taken to logical conclusions. Now then congress might not exactly fix it in any way we like, but I think it's going there.

And talking about unintended consequences.... if athletes are employees, doesn't that make some of these eligibility rules illegal? Like 5 years to play (kind of along the lines of age discrimination), or even the idea that 'pro' have lost their eleigibilty (because what job as a requirement that you've never worked before... what engineering firm could only hire programmers that have never taken money to work, etc... we are talking about depriving people of the chance to work now)...

And then imagine if suspensions are handled like in MLB or the NFL... especially academic ones. Anyone think a college professor is going to want to bother with students challenging their grades? It would be pretty hilarious to see a hearing with a union trying to get a player un-uspended and a prof having to prove he cheated or whatever. And furthermore, could a school/conference even suspend an employee for receiving bad grades? In a class unrelated to their field of employment?

I understand the impetus for better health care, esp in football with the money involved, and I'm not blaming NW players for trying this path... it's really that the laws are quite murky right now. But the can of worms is now open. And who knows, the end result might end up better for all involved. But again that seems to require some well crafted legislation.

You know what, if CFB as we know it dies off because of this...so be it. The contradiction between multi-billion dollar industry with HCs getting paid $2m/yr in power conferences and players getting an education but with heavy restrictions is too much of a disparity to ignore. I wouldn't like this but stuff happens.

My guess, given what the NU players are requesting, is a compromise will happen. Players will get paid to cover living expenses (stipends, maybe work-study), they'll get some kind of post-career medical and better support getting a degree after they finish playing...but they will NOT become rich off the deal. They also might be able to control their image and pursue other opportunities but it's not going to be "professional" FB.

Any way, someone smart and savvy will figure out there's a niche to be had...a true minor league/development league, aiming at being sold to the NFL in 12-15 years.

beelzebear;842296947 said:

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What's with all the hatters?

Yeah these guys get schollies but if you read the article and other reports, these guys are acknowledging they get scholarships but their point is they want some long term medical care for stuff like concussions and enough money to cover the full cost of going to school.

Asking for this stuff isn't crazy or outrageous given how much $$$ college football pulls in for the power conferences, admin and coaches...not to mention all the TV outlets. What is crazy is CFB is a multi-billion dollar industry based on amateur student, non-employees.

BTW, good for the NU student-athletes for applying their education to reality.

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Few people read stuff any more. They read headlines, then listen to others explain what they haven't themselves read......vicious circle.

The implications of a non profit institution paying students is too far reaching to be decided by congress. The courts will settle this.

beelzebear;842296972 said:

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You know what, if CFB as we know it dies off because of this...so be it. The contradiction between multi-billion dollar industry with HCs getting paid $2m/yr in power conferences and players getting an education but with heavy restrictions is too much of a disparity to ignore. I wouldn't like this but stuff happens.

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Absolutely this.

beelzebear;842296972 said:

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My guess, given what the NU players are requesting, is a compromise will happen. Players will get paid to cover living expenses (stipends, maybe work-study), they'll get some kind of post-career medical and better support getting a degree after they finish playing...but they will NOT become rich off the deal. They also might be able to control their image and pursue other opportunities but it's not going to be "professional" FB.

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I don't know how there can be a compromise given the extent of this ruling. It goes beyond CFB and Northwestern. And NW has leverage in a way - I mean they offer a good education, and they are known to do it right and not exploit their players (I guess relative to the SEC)... and they can honestly threaten to pull the plug on D1 CFB and it's absolutely believable. Now a school like Bama, or Texas, or any of the like? Why would an agreement between Northwestern and their player union affect what a union at Texas or Alabama or Ohio State can get. Unlike the NFL and MLB which act as on entity when it comes to labor, universities are separate entities.

And you know what, if I'm a player at Alabama, the school is pulling in not $30 million a year like NW, but $100 million a year.... why would I settle for a NW wage if unionization makes that possible? Just because the NCAA might go and give permission for a 5k player stipend or whatever small potatoes gesture they will try.... why wouldn't the guy at the $100 million school not look in to getting a bigger piece of the pie? That is once he is ruled to be an employee.

Not so fast. I don't see football supporting anything but non-revenue sports. It's not as if this was some kind of gold mine for colleges who are lavishing in the "profits" and throwing money around the university as a result.

It likely will not be resolved in my lifetime but it does seem one unintended consequence may be the end of the athletic scholarship as a vehicle for a kid to attend college. It has not been a perfect system but there is no question that a huge number of financially challenged men and women have gotten valuable degrees because of it. Could we be witnessing the death of the goose that laid the golden egg?

#ijustwantarosebowlbeforetheseunionsdestroycollegefootball

ayetee11;842296944 said:

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The maybe they should get a academic scholarship instead and quit crying.

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They are virtually all special admits. They wouldn't even be in a lecture hall at Cal if not for said FB prowess.

59bear;842297006 said:

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It likely will not be resolved in my lifetime but it does seem one unintended consequence may be the end of the athletic scholarship as a vehicle for a kid to attend college. It has not been a perfect system but there is no question that a huge number of financially challenged men and women have gotten valuable degrees because of it. Could we be witnessing the death of the goose that laid the golden egg?

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The goose is on life support.