calumnus;842312019 said:

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NUMMI in Fremont was originally (starting in 1960) a GM plant and then in 1984 was operated under a JV between GM and Toyota. Together they produced over 8 million cars and trucks. In California. In the Bay Area. Mostly Corollas for Toyota and Geos for GM.

GM ended the JV in June of 2009 because of their financial troubles, shedding of brands and overall restructuring.

Faced with the prospect of having to take over the plant and support it with only their own production in the midst of a recession, Toyota instead shifted the production of Corollas to an existing underutilized plant in Mississippi.

But to your point, Toyota does produce Tacoma pick-ups in a plant outside of Tijuana, Mexico where labor costs are lower and environmental standards are more lax (and they get government subsidies as well).

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Toyota has manufacturing plants in Mississippi, Texas, Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana and Alabama. Though there were 4000 jobs at Fremont the estimate-including ancillary and dependent jobs -was a loss of 40,000. Much more harmful than this

OskiMD;842312018 said:

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Yeah, I noticed I made a typo, of course I meant $2,500 not $25k. Not sure about most people, but that that is a lot of money to me. In any case, for someone making $250k but with huge debt and no capital gains (due to no/minimal investments), it unfairly hits them. But obviously, it's easy to get the masses to approve raising taxes on those making more money.

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I think you didn't read/understand my post - I wasn't dinging you for your typo, but for your misunderstanding of marginal taxation.

For someone making $250k, they pay $0 - Zero - zilch - nada - additional income tax due to Prop. 30.

I won't speak to your comments about the 'masses' - I just find it helpful to make sure everyone is using the same facts when debating public policy.

estrickland;842312041 said:

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I think you didn't read/understand my post - I wasn't dinging you for your typo, but for your misunderstanding of marginal taxation.

For someone making $250k, they pay $0 - Zero - zilch - nada - additional income tax due to Prop. 30.

I won't speak to your comments about the 'masses' - I just find it helpful to make sure everyone is using the same facts when debating public policy.

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I will speak to it. Most of us here are very successful, but we realize we owe much, if not all of our success to a world class public university built and funded by the state of California. We obtained one of the few coveted spots and received a huge subsidy from taxpayers, many of whom would never directly get the benefits that we received. We are the chosen few and the citizens of California [U]invested[/U] in us, hoping we would build businesses, create jobs (even whole new industries) or become the professionals (doctors, dentists, lawyers) that the other citizens need. And yes, pay taxes. Taxes that are needed to continue to support the state and the public educational system that supported us.

Yes, we all have the freedom to take our Cal education and move to other places to further our careers and improve our lives, and some of those places use a different model which allows for lower taxes, but as long as I am living in California I will never begrudge fulfilling my tax obligations. I would never leave solely for the purpose of avoiding that obligation. I would feel like a "taker." I am a Son of California, I love this place and owe California too much to complain about the obligations that come with my success.

Though I may move to Hawaii soon.

calumnus;842312058 said:

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I will speak to it. Most of us here are very successful, but we realize we owe much, if not all of our success to a world class public university built and funded by the state of California. We obtained one of the few coveted spots and received a huge subsidy from taxpayers, many of whom would never directly get the benefits that we received. We are the chosen few and the citizens of California [U]invested[/U] in us, hoping we would build businesses, create jobs (even whole new industries) or become the professionals (doctors, dentists, lawyers) that the other citizens need. And yes, pay taxes. Taxes that are needed to continue to support the state and the public educational system that supported us.

Yes, we all have the freedom to take our Cal education and move to other places to further our careers and improve our lives, and some of those places use a different model which allows for lower taxes, but as long as I am living in California I will never begrudge fulfilling my tax obligations. I would never leave solely for the purpose of avoiding that obligation. I would feel like a "taker." I am a Son of California, I love this place and owe California too much to complain about the obligations that come with my success.

Though I may move to Hawaii soon.

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Well said but no longer true. An increasingly smaller percentage of the taxes we pay have to do with the funding of the University. The amounts derived from tuition exceed the State contributions. Myself,I feel no great obligation to support prison guards or other wasteful schemes of our politicians.

calumnus;842312058 said:

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I will speak to it. Most of us here are very successful, but we realize we owe much, if not all of our success to a world class public university built and funded by the state of California. We obtained one of the few coveted spots and received a huge subsidy from taxpayers, many of whom would never directly get the benefits that we received. We are the chosen few and the citizens of California [U]invested[/U] in us, hoping we would build businesses, create jobs (even whole new industries) or become the professionals (doctors, dentists, lawyers) that the other citizens need. And yes, pay taxes. Taxes that are needed to continue to support the state and the public educational system that supported us.

Yes, we all have the freedom to take our Cal education and move to other places to further our careers and improve our lives, and some of those places use a different model which allows for lower taxes, but as long as I am living in California I will never begrudge fulfilling my tax obligations. I would never leave solely for the purpose of avoiding that obligation. I would feel like a "taker." I am a Son of California, I love this place and owe California too much to complain about the obligations that come with my success.

Though I may move to Hawaii soon.

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I can agree with the tone of much of what you say. But then if that tax burden becomes excessive in a relative (to other places) sense, then that must be measured. You are suggesting, that because of allegiance to California and the UC education received, one should be accepting of the tax base of the state. That pretty much puts you at the whims of a legislature that is unbalanced and tax hungry right now. 11% is big. Will it get bigger? Probably. Because I received an education in the state and love it, do I stay if it goes to 15%, or 20%, etc.? Not so sure on that one. I think professionals and industries who prosper must look at the value part of the equation, and right now it more relates to climate, familiarity, family than it does our state politics which dictates what you pay.

This hits near and dear to home.

I grew up in Torrance. My parents moved there in the early 80s because my father had a decent paying job working manufacturing for defense companies. Throughout the Cold War era, things were good as we were able to move up in society from poor immigrants living in an apartment in the bad part of LA to a safe, suburban city with decent schools.

After the Cold War died down, nafta was signed and outsourcing came in massive droves. As each year passed more and more jobs were sent to Mexico or more tax friendly states like Oklahoma and Arizona. It seemed that we had the good fortune that my father kept his job for so long.

He worked for the same company up until a few years ago (paying for me and my brothers college tuitions (we still had loans)) at which point he was forced to retire early (otherwise he would lose his medical benefits).

I work for a big tech company in the Bay Area.. One of the companies blamed in the class warfare going on in SF. I just heard today from a coworker that someone threw a brick at their shuttle and shattered a window.

freshfunk;842312261 said:

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This hits near and dear to home.

I grew up in Torrance. My parents moved there in the early 80s because my father had a decent paying job working manufacturing for defense companies. Throughout the Cold War era, things were good as we were able to move up in society from poor immigrants living in an apartment in the bad part of LA to a safe, suburban city with decent schools.

After the Cold War died down, nafta was signed and outsourcing came in massive droves. As each year passed more and more jobs were sent to Mexico or more tax friendly states like Oklahoma and Arizona. It seemed that we had the good fortune that my father kept his job for so long.

He worked for the same company up until a few years ago (paying for me and my brothers college tuitions (we still had loans)) at which point he was forced to retire early (otherwise he would lose his medical benefits).

I work for a big tech company in the Bay Area.. One of the companies blamed in the class warfare going on in SF. I just heard today from a coworker that someone threw a brick at their shuttle and shattered a window.

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Thanks for posting this.

GB54;842312063 said:

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Well said but no longer true. An increasingly smaller percentage of the taxes we pay have to do with the funding of the University. The amounts derived from tuition exceed the State contributions. Myself,I feel no great obligation to support prison guards or other wasteful schemes of our politicians.

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I always figured their MASSIVE pay raise was part of Gray Davis' plan to move into the White House. Be the CA Governor for 2 terms, and then move eastward.

I recently heard him on the radio dodging this issue, and putting the blame on the board that oversaw compensation or benefits. Maybe it was CALPERS, but they're also run by liberals, one hand washes the other, so I don't believe he had no hand in it.

OskiMD;842310639 said:

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Seriously, Texas is not a great place to live (I lived there briefly and found it to be fun but only since I knew it would be only there briefly) but it is really dirt cheap. For the price of his home in the Bay Area, Tedford could have bought half a dozen McMansions in TX.

Most Californians don't seem to understand that overtaxing businesses and successful and well off residents isn't a long-term solution. It may rain a lot in Seattle but I don't pay a dime to WA or Seattle aside from property and sales tax, which is comparable to CA anyway. California is still a great place but not like it used to be.

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Yup. Graffiti, crime, an explosion in gangs everywhere, traffic, water shortages, higher utilities ... it's not the California of 1975.

tommie317;842310579 said:

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Texas is just one step closer to offshore. Its a zero sum game for low paying labor and operational jobs.

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Austin has a booming tech sector.

movielover;842313576 said:

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Austin has a booming tech sector.

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Which companies?

Rackspace - not doing so well
Dell - not doing so well
The rest are just peripheral satellite offices for Silicon Valley companies for low cost operations work

OskiMD;842311953 said:

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I have only one question for you. Are you subject to Prop 30? If you have at least $250k tax burden, you will be paying an additional 1% (on top of an already eye popping 8.3% previously) for more State taxes. For a $250,000 income, that means an additional $25,000 of your hard earned income going to pay CALPERS pension funds. If not, your opinion is pretty worthless since you're advocating taxing other people, which is always so easy to do.

For physicians, dentists, pharmacists, and other professionals who accumulate huge amounts of debt that they actually have to pay back (20 years of making 10% of income payments and discharge the rest doesn't apply here), that makes living in CA really financially unattractive. Obviously, you don't care (apparently they should feel obliged to pay more taxes), but many people affected by Prop 30 are not 1%ers like Donald Sterling.

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OK here is my 2 cents.
I too voted for Prop 30.
I make more than $250,000
and I give back to Cal.

I appreciate what those who built up the State of California and the University of California.

I grew up poor and attended Cal in the 1960's when tuition was $100/semester and I was able to work my way through Cal and wind up with $0 debt when I graduated.
I paid for law school with the GI bill and again graduated with $0 debt thanks to the government program to help Vets.

I have benefitted greatly from a mostly "free" public education at the GREATEST UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD.

Sure without Prop 30 and without my donations to Cal I would have a lot more spending cash. But I am making more than I ever thought possible when I was a kid. I want to do my bit to help the State of California and the University of California. When you shrug off this mortal coil, what does it matter how many cars you have, or how big your house is, or how many vacations in the South of France you had.

I am not speaking of the middle income citizens; but of those earning over $250,000 (and those earning well over $250,000). The thought that I would leave the state and the University that allowed me to gain the skills that I needed to make my life a success, and move to a low-tax state so that I could keep to myself more of the money that my education allowed me to earn, is inconceivably selfish.

Imagine if you had parents who scrimped and saved to give you a good education, and you abandoned them in their old age living in a hovel on the wrong side of the tracks. Sorry Mom and Dad I would like to help you buy this week's groceries; but i have my country club dues to pay and I can't spare you any of my money.

But this is America and those that disagree with me are free to do so.

:bravo

68great;842313586 said:

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OK here is my 2 cents.
I too voted for Prop 30.
I make more than $250,000
and I give back to Cal.

I appreciate what those who built up the State of California and the University of California.

I grew up poor and attended Cal in the 1960's when tuition was $100/semester and I was able to work my way through Cal and wind up with $0 debt when I graduated.
I paid for law school with the GI bill and again graduated with $0 debt thanks to the government program to help Vets.

I have benefitted greatly from a mostly "free" public education at the GREATEST UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD.

Sure without Prop 30 and without my donations to Cal I would have a lot more spending cash. But I am making more than I ever thought possible when I was a kid. I want to do my bit to help the State of California and the University of California. When you shrug off this mortal coil, what does it matter how many cars you have, or how big your house is, or how many vacations in the South of France you had.

I am not speaking of the middle income citizens; but of those earning over $250,000 (and those earning well over $250,000). The thought that I would leave the state and the University that allowed me to gain the skills that I needed to make my life a success, and move to a low-tax state so that I could keep to myself more of the money that my education allowed me to earn, is inconceivably selfish.

Imagine if you had parents who scrimped and saved to give you a good education, and you abandoned them in their old age living in a hovel on the wrong side of the tracks. Sorry Mom and Dad I would like to help you buy this week's groceries; but i have my country club dues to pay and I can't spare you any of my money.

But this is America and those that disagree with me are free to do so.

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movielover;842313574 said:

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Yup. Graffiti, crime, an explosion in gangs everywhere, traffic, water shortages, higher utilities ... it's not the California of 1975.

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uhhh....you have heard that Texas is having a worse drought than CA right?

"The city of Wichita Falls, Texas, may soon become the first in the country where half of the drinking water comes directly from wastewater.

Yes, that includes water from toilets.

The plan to recycle the water became necessary after three years of extreme drought, which has also imposed some harsh restrictions on Wichita Falls residents, says Mayor Glenn Barham."

I would guess that with Climate Change, things aren't going to get a heck of a lot better -- over time (say, the next 20 years).

freshfunk;842312261 said:

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This hits near and dear to home.

I work for a big tech company in the Bay Area.. One of the companies blamed in the class warfare going on in SF. I just heard today from a coworker that someone threw a brick at their shuttle and shattered a window.

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An increasing number of folks in our society today seem to resent successful people. Sad, very sad.

Golden One;842314201 said:

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An increasing number of folks in our society today seem to resent successful people. Sad, very sad.

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I don't find that statement true at all. I think the issues are far deeper than that.

MinotStateBeav;842314210 said:

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I don't find that statement true at all. I think the issues are far deeper than that.

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Nope. It's in vogue these days to slam successful people. Look all around you. From the high tech workers moving into SF to "the 1%" nationally. They are continuously being demonized, led by the political demagogues. If you've "made it", whether it's through hard work or otherwise, you're bad.

Golden One;842314294 said:

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Nope. It's in vogue these days to slam successful people. Look all around you. From the high tech workers moving into SF to "the 1%" nationally. They are continuously being demonized, led by the political demagogues. If you've "made it", whether it's through hard work or otherwise, you're bad.

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You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. And the problem is not a recent problem. It's always been in vogue for people to slam others would are more successful than they are. It's just basic human instinct to covet. It's also just basic human instinct to hoard and to use wealth to glorify oneself at the expense of others. It's just a reflection of lack of generosity, grace and love that has always existed on both sides. Everyone is for tax increase or spending cuts as long as the tax increase is for those making more than they currently do or spending cuts affect only those services they don't use. I would have so much more confidence in our government if we as a whole were more courageous (instead of blaming the politicians who are just following our lead) and agreed that we will all pitch in and bear some pain to solve our problems. If we were all willing to pay more in taxes (yes, it has to hurt even for people in pain) and cut programs that benefit the rich or old and not just the poor or young, we would have a fighting chance for our government to actually solve some problems. Instead, we all just want the problem solved but only at the expense of others. We as a whole lack courage. And until we find some heart, we will all just complain, hope for change without making any change, and blame everyone but ourselves for our problems.

Golden One;842310391 said:

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Just the latest step in a continuing wave of businesses moving from California to Texas. Wonder how long it will take for California to wake up? In many ways Texas sucks (climate and topography being two that come to mind), but it's a fact that the state is much more business friendly than California and the cost of living for residents is significantly lower than CA.

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How ironic! Tesla, a battery operated vehicle, in the land of gas and oil. An inherent contradiction. I can see the energy lobby in Texas opposing the establishment of a Tesla plant in their midst.

movielover;842313574 said:

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Yup. Graffiti, crime, an explosion in gangs everywhere, traffic, water shortages, higher utilities ... it's not the California of 1975.

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If I wanted my state to become Texas, I would move to Texas. There are many reasons (in addition to the weather) why I would never consider moving to Texas. Of course there are many issues with California, including out-of-touch politicians who have never met an extreme position that they haven't embraced. However, Texas is at the other end of the extreme and I would rather live with the crazies in the coast than in Texas.

calbear93;842314326 said:

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I would have so much more confidence in our government if we as a whole were more courageous and agreed that we will all pitch in and bear some pain to solve our problems. If we were all willing to pay more in taxes (yes, it has to hurt even for people in pain) and cut programs that benefit the rich or old and not just the poor or young, we would have a fighting chance for our government to actually solve some problems. Instead, we all just want the problem solved but only at the expense of others. We as a whole lack courage. And until we find some heart, we will all just complain, hope for change without making any change, and blame everyone but ourselves for our problems.

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Well said! I agree completely. :bravo:bravo