wifeisafurd;842330030 said:

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Clearly causes brain trauma, but not the concussion/brain injury kind. Unless, of course, you cheat on your wife and when you return to your home in Florida, she is brandishing a short iron.

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although it is rare, golfers can get hit and sometimes killed by wayward shots. there also incidences of golfers that get hurt and killed by falling tree branches on windy days. i sort of feel like its up to the players to pick and choose their participation in respective sports and what level of physical risks that they want to expose themselves to. the information is more out there now, so its not like people dont have a general idea about the risks now in sports such as football

goldenokiebear;842329966 said:

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I don't understand the "no heading outside the box" idea I've heard in a couple of posts here - it's more likely one will get a concussion heading in the penalty area, I've seen a few result from head knocking in the penalty area because it's more congested and there's more at stake close to the goal.

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Its the repetitive stress and brain shaking that happen on headers of long balls (Goal kicks & punts) and also the competition for balls in the air leading to head v head. Taking headers out of the game completely means a lot less scoring from a lofted cross. That would really change the game. Playing high balls at mid field without your head is not a big deal. The chest is often a better play anyway if you seek to retain possession. Soccer could lose midfield heading at very low cost. Taking them away in the box would change the game too much.

You would still have a risk, but it is a risk for something (a goal) as opposed to a similar risk for little benefit.

socaltownie;842329944 said:

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No time but this weekend (or Friday), NPR ran a story about a bunch of well known women soccer players forming an association along with the American Pediatric society to encourage youth soccer to ban heading by girls below the age of HS. Look for it - post if you can't find it and I will dig as well.

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http://www.npr.org/2014/06/25/325608309/a-warning-for-soccer-parents-wait-to-let-your-kids-go-headfirst

Not a terrible idea, but to go anywhere this needs the data to support it. I'd still love to see the data that says soccer is as bad as football. If it is, youth soccer MUST change. Football is going to have to change. Parents will not send their kids into a meat grinder. When the pipeline dries up, its over.

gobears725;842330141 said:

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although it is rare, golfers can get hit and sometimes killed by wayward shots. there also incidences of golfers that get hurt and killed by falling tree branches on windy days. i sort of feel like its up to the players to pick and choose their participation in respective sports and what level of physical risks that they want to expose themselves to. the information is more out there now, so its not like people dont have a general idea about the risks now in sports such as football

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Don't forget lightning ala Lee Trevino and many others.

According to this article, here are the concussion rates by sport for high school boys and girls:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9902116/report-details-concussion-risks-high-school-athletes

Rates per 10,000 athletic exposures, as reported by athletic trainers, by sport:

Boys

Football 11.2
Lacrosse 6.9
Wrestling 6.2
Soccer 4.2
Basketball 2.8
Baseball 1.2

Girls

Soccer 6.7
Basketball 5.6
Lacrosse 5.2
Field Hockey 4.2
Softball 1.6

wifeisafurd;842330071 said:

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Embarrass adults on the track, the tennis court, in soccer, in the pool, the lacrosse field and on and on. I assume you are talking about the young lady who qualified for the Women's US Open, who is an extreme case, in a sport where the tour contestants are just figuring out fitness (and women's golf is changing).

Men's golf is now dominated by guys that look like Duston Johnson and Adam Scott. To give you an example, [U]close your eyes[/U], stand on one foot and raise the other foot in the air to knee level (you bend your knee that is in the air). The average male tour pro now has the core strength to hold the position for hours. The average amateur, about 10 seconds.

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My 9 year old just schooled me in soccer the other day. Not as quick and nimble as I used to be.

Go!Bears;842330143 said:

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Its the repetitive stress and brain shaking that happen on headers of long balls (Goal kicks & punts) and also the competition for balls in the air leading to head v head. Taking headers out of the game completely means a lot less scoring from a lofted cross. That would really change the game. Playing high balls at mid field without your head is not a big deal. The chest is often a better play anyway if you seek to retain possession. Soccer could lose midfield heading at very low cost. Taking them away in the box would change the game too much.

You would still have a risk, but it is a risk for something (a goal) as opposed to a similar risk for little benefit.

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Taking that in the chest could stop your heart, tho...

Then what?

UCBerkGrad;842330160 said:

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According to this article, here are the concussion rates by sport for high school boys and girls:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9902116/report-details-concussion-risks-high-school-athletes

Rates per 10,000 athletic exposures, as reported by athletic trainers, by sport:

Boys

Football 11.2
Lacrosse 6.9
Wrestling 6.2
Soccer 4.2
Basketball 2.8
Baseball 1.2

Girls

Soccer 6.7
Basketball 5.6
Lacrosse 5.2
Field Hockey 4.2
Softball 1.6

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To complicate things somewhat, both soccer and football are also known to cause CTE, which may come from constant trauma that is not concussions. More research is needed now. I played lacrosse, and its a violent sport. To think women's soccer has a concussion rate just under LAX is surprising.

re: soccer and headers... I remember as a kid the worst part of pre-game warm-ups or practice as a kid was the header drill...at age 8 or so. It was not only pointless at that age (except as a life long skill) but it hurt like a MOTHERF***** and was so poorly instructed and execute it wasn't funny. Back then the old panel balls got water-logged and I remember thinking, "should this hurt?" Then I learned the "secret", never use your head except when absolutely necessary AND if it was a newer ball that didn't hurt. Any way, anecdotal info on the header stuff. Heading the ball under the age of 16 shouldn't be allowed. It's like any move...if it hurt like hell after each time, it can't be good. Imagine a batting stance or hoops play like that, it would be gone yesterday.

Originally Posted by socaltownie:
"Is football dangerous? Surely. So is skiing, biking, hiking, swimming, running, and playing hoops."

And please provide some evidence that skiers, cyclists, hikers, swimmers, runners and basketball players suffer higher rates of dementia later in life.

There is none - or very little, at best. These sports do not expose participants to repeated head trauma. They do pose a risk of occasional - and severe - head trauma. Therefore, cyclists wear helmets to address that risk.

No, the evidence is quite clear that football exposes the player to repeated concussive forces that lead to debilitating head injury. Soccer may prove to injure as well, but at much lower rates.

If soccer causes anything similar to football injuries, I'd expect changes to the sport (and would support such change), through use of headgear and/or limiting ball heading. Pretty simple way to address the problem while still allowing much of the game to remain the same.

But the old, "taking a bath is risky" attitude really doesn't address the situation. It's like a parent saying, 'Sure, that child seat saved my kid's life, but I sure hate the feeling I'm a "do-gooder" living in a "Nanny State."' Neanderthal thinking, if you ask me!

TandemBear;842330410 said:

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Originally Posted by socaltownie:
"Is football dangerous? Surely. So is skiing, biking, hiking, swimming, running, and playing hoops."

And please provide some evidence that skiers, cyclists, hikers, swimmers, runners and basketball players suffer higher rates of dementia later in life.

There is none - or very little, at best. These sports do not expose participants to repeated head trauma. They do pose a risk of occasional - and severe - head trauma. Therefore, cyclists wear helmets to address that risk.

No, the evidence is quite clear that football exposes the player to repeated concussive forces that lead to debilitating head injury. Soccer may prove to injure as well, but at much lower rates.

If soccer causes anything similar to football injuries, I'd expect changes to the sport (and would support such change), through use of headgear and/or limiting ball heading. Pretty simple way to address the problem while still allowing much of the game to remain the same.

But the old, "taking a bath is risky" attitude really doesn't address the situation. It's like a parent saying, 'Sure, that child seat saved my kid's life, but I sure hate the feeling I'm a "do-gooder" living in a "Nanny State."' Neanderthal thinking, if you ask me!

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the problem is that i dont think that theres a single piece of equipment out there that can help. the obvious thing to do for football would be to take away helmets and shoulder pad but then it would significantly alter the game. the cavalier attitudes arise because theres really only one answer to the solution as far football is concerned, either play or dont play. thats where the sarcastic attitudes come about because its how people downplay the risks to justify our involvement which is watching the sport. i dont think that theres any way to sugarcoat this, its a brutal sport that can lead to debilitating head injuries and its doubtful that theres any equipment that can help. theres no safety seat for football players. either they take the risk of playing or they dont. the only thing that id advise is that college and professional football start setting money aside for its injured players in the future for medical expenses. i think thats about the best option that there is out there right now

for every attempt at an intelligent comment (e.g., SCT), there is some fatuous: "all life is dangerous; let's stop living" post.

It would seem to be clear that the risk of serious head injury and long-term damage with football is greater than with other sports; while the jury is more out on soccer, this may be a problem there as well. Obviously, since we have only recently begun to collect data, it is too early to tell if HS football players who don't play beyond that year or college players who don't play pro have anywhere near the risks of NFL players. It is also clear at this point that we have no meaningful ways of coping with the risk. The "sit out one play" rule is ludicrous--especially as the player sent off almost never sees a doctor but just stands on the sideline until coming right back in. Similarly, helmet design changes haven't seemed to work, primarily because the damage comes from the brain-skull collision, which results from the sudden stopping of movement.

I agree that Cal is not going to give up football--until there is a national movement that is forced by multiple 9 figure judgments, so that's not a meaningful argument to have.

For perspective, there was a time when boxing was a MAJOR sport at Cal, but you won't find a boxing team anywhere in the college ranks. Of course, boxing (and MMA) is the only sport in which injuring your opponent is the actual goal of the contest (although it comes close in football in terms of how the game is marketed--at least at the NFL level).

Anyway, this is a serious issue worthy of a serious discussion. I would hope we can do that.

TandemBear;842330410 said:

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Originally Posted by socaltownie:
"Is football dangerous? Surely. So is skiing, biking, hiking, swimming, running, and playing hoops."

And please provide some evidence that skiers, cyclists, hikers, swimmers, runners and basketball players suffer higher rates of dementia later in life.

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And yet every year I read about 3-4 people DYING on the ski slopes as they plow into a tree or try to board and die getting stuck in a tree wheel. This year San Diego lost a giant in its tech industry when he cracked his head open while biking. And as we found out in Point Break, sometimes you are not coming back in when you surf the storm of the century.

TandemBear;842330410 said:

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There is none - or very little, at best. These sports do not expose participants to repeated head trauma. They do pose a risk of occasional - and severe - head trauma. Therefore, cyclists wear helmets to address that risk.

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Well yes but....cyclist wearing helmets die....as did the aforementioned SD tech leader.

TandemBear;842330410 said:

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No, the evidence is quite clear that football exposes the player to repeated concussive forces that lead to debilitating head injury.

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Again no. The evidence SEEMS clear that _NFL_ players are exposed to forces that are problematic. They are also players who play on contracts that can be voided at any time and so have a strong incentive not to sit out/play through concussions. What isn't clear (see post) is ANY epidemiology that suggests youth, HS, and even college ball presents a similar risk. It is also the case that NFL players are among the nations most visible athletes. Like Jenny McCarty's kid getting autism the cameras focus on those who have dementia or mental health problems like Seau. Until the DATA is in I think cautious skepticism is the order of the day.

The counter evidence is pretty compelling the other way. MILLIONS of American males in their 30s through 60s played at least youth football. Likely Several hundred thousand played high school and tens of thousands are vets of college ball. And yet this dementia seems rare. Before jumping the shark the nervous nellies need to explain why rest homes are not filled to the brim with patients.

UrsaMajor;842330421 said:

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for every attempt at an intelligent comment (e.g., SCT), there is some fatuous: "all life is dangerous; let's stop living" post.

It would seem to be clear that the risk of serious head injury and long-term damage with football is greater than with other sports; while the jury is more out on soccer, this may be a problem there as well. Obviously, since we have only recently begun to collect data, it is too early to tell if HS football players who don't play beyond that year or college players who don't play pro have anywhere near the risks of NFL players. It is also clear at this point that we have no meaningful ways of coping with the risk. The "sit out one play" rule is ludicrous--especially as the player sent off almost never sees a doctor but just stands on the sideline until coming right back in. Similarly, helmet design changes haven't seemed to work, primarily because the damage comes from the brain-skull collision, which results from the sudden stopping of movement.

I agree that Cal is not going to give up football--until there is a national movement that is forced by multiple 9 figure judgments, so that's not a meaningful argument to have.

For perspective, there was a time when boxing was a MAJOR sport at Cal, but you won't find a boxing team anywhere in the college ranks. Of course, boxing (and MMA) is the only sport in which injuring your opponent is the actual goal of the contest (although it comes close in football in terms of how the game is marketed--at least at the NFL level).

Anyway, this is a serious issue worthy of a serious discussion. I would hope we can do that.

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I was surprised to find that Wiki lists the National Collegiate Boxing Association with 31 colleges participating, I presume at the club level.

Knowing that Nevada had a boxing 'team' prompted my search. On the NCBA website for documents, http://www.ncbaboxing.org/#!documents/c1vf1, the CDC has a free concussion training notice.

NVGolfingBear;842330449 said:

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I was surprised to find that Wiki lists the National Collegiate Boxing Association with 31 colleges participating, I presume at the club level.

Knowing that Nevada had a boxing 'team' prompted my search. On the NCBA website for documents, http://www.ncbaboxing.org/#!documents/c1vf1, the CDC has a free concussion training notice.

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College boxing use to be BIG time, just like boxing was at the time. My uncle got a fully schollie back in the day. Heck, youth boxing, CYO, use to be huge. It's not much of a secret but the CYO made bank back in the day (WWII) filling those auditoriums...just like how Catholic HS sell all those tickets to football game today.

Scared of the risk? Don't play. Simple as that. Don't complain if you're getting an education paid for or playing in the NFL. everything is all good when the millions are coming in. A bunch of babies.

Phantomfan;842330177 said:

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Taking that in the chest could stop your heart, tho...

Then what?

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You must not have played. You catch it with your chest. It's not supposed to have much impact. Does not bounce off your chest the way it does yor head. Head is a pass, chest is a trap.

Go!Bears;842330481 said:

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You must not have played. You catch it with your chest. It's not supposed to have much impact. Does not bounce off your chest the way it does yor head. Head is a pass, chest is a trap.

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You shouldn't get a concussion from a header either.

But we are trying to prevent rare occurrences, right? I mean we can make the sound common, but we are talking about preventing pretty scarce injuries... so why stop at headers?

Phantomfan;842330484 said:

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You shouldn't get a concussion from a header either.

But we are trying to prevent rare occurrences, right? I mean we can make the sound common, but we are talking about preventing pretty scarce injuries... so why stop at headers?

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I think the goal is to make the common, rare.

Phantomfan;842330484 said:

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You shouldn't get a concussion from a header either.

But we are trying to prevent rare occurrences, right? I mean we can make the sound common, but we are talking about preventing pretty scarce injuries... so why stop at headers?

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From what I have heard concussions are a severe form of head trauma; but repeated significant blows to (or by) the head can cause long term brain damage even if the blows individually do not create a concussion.

No need to argue, it's coming. When high schools will no longer be able to pay liability insurance for their FB programs you'll see the end of college and eventually NFL FB. How about rugby like Cal played at the turnoff the century. Safer and just as exciting.

GivemTheAxe;842331346 said:

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repeated significant blows to (or by) the head can cause long term brain damage even if the blows individually do not create a concussion.

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and what I worry about in youth soccer. Soccer has an answer. Diminish its place in the game. I don't see how football can do that.

mcd59;842331352 said:

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How about rugby like Cal played at the turnoff the century. Safer and just as exciting.

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We are #1

Go!Bears;842331358 said:

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and what I worry about in youth soccer. Soccer has an answer. Diminish its place in the game. I don't see how football can do that.

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NFL Football (and college) for many is the equivalent of NASCAR ... waiting for the collisions.
Rugby would be great as well as soccer.

SonOfCalVa;842331369 said:

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NFL Football (and college) for many is the equivalent of NASCAR ... waiting for the collisions.
Rugby would be great as well as soccer.

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BTW the collisions in NASCAR will also lead to head trauma because the driver's head is violently whipped back and forth. The fact that the head does not make contact with the dashboard or window, does not mean that there is no head trauma.
I understand that this whipping of the head is why so many soldiers who are near the explosion of an IED suffer head trauma even though they are not otherwise injured by the blast.

So NASCAR has to be modified so that the cars are each encased in airbags as if they were "bumper cars":sarc:

68great;842331982 said:

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BTW the collisions in NASCAR will also lead to head trauma because the driver's head is violently whipped back and forth. The fact that the head does not make contact with the dashboard or window, does not mean that there is no head trauma.
I understand that this whipping of the head is why so many soldiers who are near the explosion of an IED suffer head trauma even though they are not otherwise injured by the blast.

So NASCAR has to be modified so that the cars are each encased in airbags as if they were "bumper cars":sarc:

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The pipeline will dry up and that is what will kill college football. If Nascar depended on HS racing programs, it would not exist.

Football has been played for over 130 years. If it were a giant concussion risk, it would have been banned from colleges 50+ years ago like boxing. There were other issues about player safety with football in the early years--it was particularly a big issue in the media in 1905--that resulted in the forward pass, requiring the offensive line & a total of seven players being at the line of scrimmage, and there also was for a time a rule requiring the ball carrier move five yards laterally before crossing the line of scrimmage.

Football has a greater concussion rate than other sports, but nothing like an order of magnitude greater than the next-highest sports such as soccer or lacrosse. So I don't see any objective logic for banning football completely. If you ban it because it has the highest rate, then do you ban the next highest sport, and then the next highest, and so on? With some in this thread talking about banning heading in soccer, banning football truly is the start of a slippery slope.

Make everyone aware of the possibilities and have them sign wavers, penalize spearing with the head, keep an eye on it in practice, ban individual players after a certain number of lifetime concussions, makes sense. But banning the whole sport doesn't make sense.

Creeping Incrementalism;842332462 said:

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If you ban it because it has the highest rate, then do you ban the next highest sport, and then the next highest, and so on?

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Moms will ban it and it will start to wither. HS Principals worried about lawsuits will cut support. If it dies in HS, it is dead for colleges. The NFL may still play, with adults signing waivers - but children will be guided to other sports.

Go!Bears;842332568 said:

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Moms will ban it and it will start to wither. HS Principals worried about lawsuits will cut support. If it dies in HS, it is dead for colleges. The NFL may still play, with adults signing waivers - but children will be guided to other sports.

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You may be right. But I am not so sure about it being the end of the NFL if Colleges give it up.

Boxing still attracts a lot of boxers looking to make it to the top despite the mountain of information that boxing is bad for your brain.

Plus so long as there are some people willing to play the sport, TV will show it since there is so much money tied up. And many people will be willing to play if there is big money paid to the players. The players will all believe that "some one else" will suffer the brain injuries.

So maybe the HS and colleges give up the sport. But I could see the possibility of minor league football starting up (something along the lines of the Arena League).

68great;842332578 said:

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So maybe the HS and colleges give up the sport. But I could see the possibility of minor league football starting up (something along the lines of the Arena League).

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I think this is it. But will fans be as interested if emotional ties are not developed in HS & College? Personally I do not watch the NFL. Season ends when Cal hangs them up... So early, lately...

Go!Bears;842332789 said:

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I think this is it. But will fans be as interested if emotional ties are not developed in HS & College? Personally I do not watch the NFL. Season ends when Cal hangs them up... So early, lately...

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Hmmm....who knows. Parity, Free agency and the brutality of the modern NFL game did it for me. I long for the days of the dynasties we saw in the 70s and 80s which lasted several years.

bearchamp;842329813 said:

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Should the University be in Football?

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highly compensated top administrators must do so, regardless of ethics.

fans though, each of us individually onesy and twosy, gotta choose to continue exploiting young people or not.

starting this season we opt out.


paraphrasing, where sports fans are the citizens..