I remember some time back we had a discussion about UC's admissions policies vis a vis out of state students. A number of people posted that they agreed with the policy of admitting more out of state students because those students were just as qualified (if not more qualified) as California residents. I always suspected that was not the case and now this audit seems to confirm my suspicions.

I think it is absolutely disgraceful that UC has lower admissions requirements for out of stater applicants. I had to send my daughter out of state and am paying $60k per year for a private school in Boston because she did not get into Cal. She is an excellent student, had a truly outstanding application, and was a life-long Cal fan. My wife and I, both Cal grads, feel betrayed by the UC system. It's as if Napolitano and the other administrators are feuding with the California legislature about state support for the UCs and California residents are having to pay the price.

allhail;842672506 said:

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California residents are having to pay the price.

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Well, Californians are not "paying" ie. supporting the University very much anymore. Why should residents expect access from an institution that now only gets ~9% of its budget from the state? The people have decided that higher education is no longer a priority in this state, and accordingly the University has adjusted its policies as such. I have no issue with that.

allhail;842672506 said:

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I remember some time back we had a discussion about UC's admissions policies vis a vis out of state students. A number of people posted that they agreed with the policy of admitting more out of state students because those students were just as qualified (if not more qualified) as California residents. I always suspected that was not the case and now this audit seems to confirm my suspicions.

I think it is absolutely disgraceful that UC has lower admissions requirements for out of stater applicants. I had to send my daughter out of state and am paying $60k per year for a private school in Boston because she did not get into Cal. She is an excellent student, had a truly outstanding application, and was a life-long Cal fan. My wife and I, both Cal grads, feel betrayed by the UC system. It's as if Napolitano and the other administrators are feuding with the California legislature about state support for the UCs and California residents are having to pay the price.

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Admission standards for out of state students at Cal are higher than for in state students.
http://admissions.berkeley.edu/studentprofile

9% whoa

Is it the people or the legislature? And where has the money been diverted?

Is there really another need for a second thread on this?

http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?100518-OT-State-audit-finds-UC-lowered-admission-standards-for-OOS-students

Interesting fact I'll leave here, from the graph in my post in the other thread - OOS tuition pays for MORE of an in-state's students education than the state of CA does. While people claim there is terrible waste in UC managenment (I have no idea how to prove or disprove that), the per student spending is down significantly in the last 20 years. It's clear to me now more than ever UC needs the OOS $$$ to maintain itself because the state of CA isn't. And I'm not even sure UC can maintain its stature at the current spending levels because they are significantly lower than 20 years ago, and that's INCLUDING the OOS money. Imagine what would happen without it?!

I started this thread because new information came to light yesterday that we did not have access to last time we discussed this topic. It's the off season and I labeled it OT. Colorado, if you don't think there's a need for a second thread on this, don't respond to it. Oh, wait a minute, too late, you already did.

OskiBear11Math, did you even look at the article I linked?

I am not arguing that California residents should necessarily be given preferential admissions at UC. I just don't they should be punished because they are California residents, which is what the audit that was reported yesterday seemed to find. Is there another state in the country that would screw its own residents like this. I don't know of one.

allhail;842672539 said:

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I started this thread because new information came to light yesterday that we did not have access to last time we discussed this topic. It's the off season and I labeled it OT. Colorado, if you don't think there's a need for a second thread on this, don't respond to it. Oh, wait a minute, too late, you already did.

OskiBear11Math, did you even look at the article I linked?

I am not arguing that California residents should necessarily be given preferential admissions at UC. I just don't they should be punished because they are California residents, which is what the audit that was reported yesterday seemed to find. Is there another state in the country that would screw its own residents like this. I don't know of one.

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It is the people of California, not the University, that are punishing California residents by defunding the university system. How can Californians get something they don't pay for?

allhail;842672539 said:

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I started this thread because new information came to light yesterday that we did not have access to last time we discussed this topic. It's the off season and I labeled it OT. Colorado, if you don't think there's a need for a second thread on this, don't respond to it. Oh, wait a minute, too late, you already did.

OskiBear11Math, did you even look at the article I linked?

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My point was there WAS a thread started yesterday about the exact report you are linking.

allhail;842672539 said:

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I started this thread because new information came to light yesterday that we did not have access to last time we discussed this topic. It's the off season and I labeled it OT. Colorado, if you don't think there's a need for a second thread on this, don't respond to it. Oh, wait a minute, too late, you already did.

OskiBear11Math, did you even look at the article I linked?

I am not arguing that California residents should necessarily be given preferential admissions at UC. I just don't they should be punished because they are California residents, which is what the audit that was reported yesterday seemed to find. Is there another state in the country that would screw its own residents like this. I don't know of one.

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The numbers, at least for Cal, do not support your position.

California no longer cares about the UC. UC needs to find people who do.

socaliganbear;842672546 said:

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California no longer cares about the UC. UC needs to find people who do.

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I was thinking that this morning ...

What numbers are you talking about? Did you even look at the report? Maybe you're too busy to click on the link, so I'll give you a direct quote from the California State Auditor:

However, in 2011 the university relaxed this admission standard to state that nonresidents need only to "compare favorably" to residents. Combined with the university's desire to enroll more nonresidents because of the additional tuition that they pay, the relaxing of this admission standard had dramatic results. During the three-year period after this change, the university admitted nearly 16,000 nonresidents whose scores fell below the median scores for admitted residents at the same campus on every academic test score and grade point average that we evaluated. At the same time, the university denied admission to an increasing proportion of qualified residents at the campus to which they appliednearly 11,000 in academic year 201415 aloneand instead referred them to an alternate campus.

For those of you who think UC is right to punish the people of California because the government has reduced funding to the university, I disagree.

Strykur;842672514 said:

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Well, Californians are not "paying" ie. supporting the University very much anymore. Why should residents expect access from an institution that now only gets ~9% of its budget from the state? The people have decided that higher education is no longer a priority in this state, and accordingly the University has adjusted its policies as such. I have no issue with that.

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In case you have forgotten, it's the people of California who have collectively funded the development of the University of California since its founding in 1868. Unfortunately, the governor and the legislature in recent years haven't given appropriate priority to supporting the university financially; they have clearly preferred to undertake massive spending on an endless list of social programs. Shame on them.

allhail;842672556 said:

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What numbers are you talking about? Did you even look at the report? Maybe you're too busy to click on the link, so I'll give you a direct quote from the California State Auditor:

However, in 2011 the university relaxed this admission standard to state that nonresidents need only to “compare favorably” to residents. Combined with the university’s desire to enroll more nonresidents because of the additional tuition that they pay, the relaxing of this admission standard had dramatic results. During the three-year period after this change, the university admitted nearly 16,000 nonresidents whose scores fell below the median scores for admitted residents at the same campus on every academic test score and grade point average that we evaluated. At the same time, the university denied admission to an increasing proportion of qualified residents at the campus to which they applied—nearly 11,000 in academic year 2014–15 alone—and instead referred them to an alternate campus.

For those of you who think UC is right to punish the people of California because the government has reduced funding to the university, I disagree.

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He's talking about Berkeley's own admissions site which states that the OOS applicant pool AND the group of admitted students scored higher in every single metric. This is very likely a much bigger issue at campuses that don't have the brand recognition that Cal and UCLA do.

Also, why is it considered a punishment to find OOS students willing to subsidize the CA students that their own state isn't interested in doing? That's not a punishment.

While it's true that the university was funded properly for generations, those generations have since graduated. This current and future generations can't be educated on the money from generations past.

socaliganbear;842672561 said:

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Why is it considered a punishment to find OOS students willing to subsidize the CA students that their own state isn't interested in doing? That's not a punishment.

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I feel like we discussed this before... somewhere?

Someone might have said UC as a whole and Cal might have different student profiles for in state and OOS admits?

Ahem: http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?100518-OT-State-audit-finds-UC-lowered-admission-standards-for-OOS-students

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mean to say that the people of say New Jersey care more than the people of California for the University of California? I don't think you mean that. There are probably hundreds of thousands of Cal alumni living in California who care very deeply for UC. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of Cal alumni live right here in California. We devoted alumni and fans of the university should not have to pay the price for the mistakes of our shortsighted government. I personally would have been ecstatic if my daughter were admitted on the condition that we pay out of state tuition, but of course that was not an option.

allhail;842672568 said:

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I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mean to say that the people of say New Jersey care more than the people of California for the University of California? I don't think you mean that. There are probably hundreds of thousands of Cal alumni living in California who care very deeply for UC. I would bet that the overwhelming majority of Cal alumni live right here in California. We devoted alumni and fans of the university should not have to pay the price for the mistakes of our shortsighted government. I personally would have been ecstatic if my daughter were admitted on the condition that we pay out of state tuition, but of course that was not an option.

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If you look at the actual data, you'd see that OOS students at Cal have higher GPA and test scores than in-state students. The conclusion from the study is incredibly misleading.

Quote:

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In the last three years, nearly 16,000 nonresident undergraduates — about 29 percent of those admitted — have won spots at the coveted public university with grade-point averages and scores below the median of admitted Californians, according to the 116-page audit.

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Think about that. 29% of OOS admits had lower scores than the median California admit. But wait, doesn't this also mean 50% of California admits had lower scores than the median California admit? Or looking at it from the other side, 71% of OOS admits had higher scores than the median California admit. It's all about how you frame the numbers.

After a super quick search, the only UC with super easy to find break down of freshman statistics for in-state vs OOS is Cal. I'm guessing that's not on accident.

socaliganbear;842672572 said:

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After a super quick search, the only UC with super easy to find break down of freshman statistics for in-state vs OOS is Cal. I'm guessing that's not on accident.

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Article from two years ago:

Quote:

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Last year, on average Californians admitted to UC had a 3.61 grade-point average in high school and a 1822 SAT score, while Americans from other states had a 3.76 GPA and scored 175 points higher on the SAT; international students had a 3.71 GPA and scored 105 points higher on the SAT, according to a UC study.

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http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-out-of-state-20140818-story.html

pingpong2;842672574 said:

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Article from two years ago:


http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-out-of-state-20140818-story.html

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huh? I mean campus by campus breakdown.

socaliganbear;842672576 said:

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huh? I mean campus by campus breakdown.

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Unless you think that Cal skews the numbers to an incredible degree, I don't think your insinuations that the rest of the UCs are hiding lower OOS GPAs holds much water.

pingpong2;842672577 said:

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Unless you think that Cal skews the numbers to an incredible degree, I don't think your insinuations that the rest of the UCs are hiding lower OOS GPAs holds much water.

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That's exactly what I think. The fact that Cal is so transparent with this very hot topic, and in a way, ahead of of the issue, makes me think they're fully aware that they're in a much more favorable position.

Hell, if UCLA which is in many ways Cal's equal has an admit rate of 16% CA & 23% OOS (compared to our 17%), I can only imagine what those figures look like for other UCs.

socaliganbear;842672579 said:

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That's exactly what I think. The fact that Cal is so transparent with this very hot topic, and in a way, ahead of of the issue, makes me think they're fully aware that they're in a much more favorable position.

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The median GPA for Cal's OOS students is a whopping 0.02 points higher than their in-state counterparts, whereas the OOS students for the UCs as a whole a couple years ago had a median GPA 0.15 points higher. Either the GPA gap at Cal closed the last couple years, or your suspicions are unfounded.

pingpong2;842672584 said:

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The median GPA for Cal's OOS students is a whopping 0.02 points higher than their in-state counterparts, whereas the OOS students for the UCs as a whole a couple years ago had a median GPA 0.15 points higher. Either the GPA gap at Cal closed the last couple years, or your suspicions are unfounded.

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Something to look into, since those numbers were a year old in 2014.

socaliganbear;842672585 said:

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Something to look into, since those numbers were a year old in 2014.

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True, but I can't imagine the numbers would change so drastically as to go from green to red in the span of 3 years.

Have a family member this year in the top 2% of her graduating class, 4.5 GPA, with 11 AP courses, with 32 on math/science ACT, but (and I think the kicker) a 29 on her reading comprehension. First semester senior year a 5.0 GPA at a solid high school in the greater bay area. No admission to Cal, but admitted to UC Davis and UCSD. I can see how she was probably eliminated with the one lower ACT score, but she sure kills the profile of entering students. Also top 5 mountain biker in California in cross country (which doesn't get her in on athletics, but no slouch with extra curricular). It is a jungle out there, but her profile, and being a California resident, seems like she should have gotten in. Not so much sour grapes as she will do well elsewhere, but just an example of how tough it is.

allhail;842672506 said:

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I remember some time back we had a discussion about UC's admissions policies vis a vis out of state students. A number of people posted that they agreed with the policy of admitting more out of state students because those students were just as qualified (if not more qualified) as California residents. I always suspected that was not the case and now this audit seems to confirm my suspicions.

I think it is absolutely disgraceful that UC has lower admissions requirements for out of stater applicants. I had to send my daughter out of state and am paying $60k per year for a private school in Boston because she did not get into Cal. She is an excellent student, had a truly outstanding application, and was a life-long Cal fan. My wife and I, both Cal grads, feel betrayed by the UC system. It's as if Napolitano and the other administrators are feuding with the California legislature about state support for the UCs and California residents are having to pay the price.

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Confirmation bias. The statistics still show that OOS states students have higher GPA's and test scores than in-state students at U.C. Berkeley. The article is incredibly misleading.

oskimama;842672559 said:

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In case you have forgotten, it's the people of California who have collectively funded the development of the University of California since its founding in 1868. Unfortunately, the governor and the legislature in recent years haven't given appropriate priority to supporting the university financially; they have clearly preferred to undertake massive spending on an endless list of social programs. Shame on them.

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let's not get too high and mighty on social programs. A heck of a lot of money goes to prisons proportionally. Unless prisons are considered social programs.

pingpong2;842672570 said:

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If you look at the actual data, you'd see that OOS students at Cal have higher GPA and test scores than in-state students. The conclusion from the study is incredibly misleading.



Think about that. 29% of OOS admits had lower scores than the median California admit. But wait, doesn't this also mean 50% of California admits had lower scores than the median California admit? Or looking at it from the other side, 71% of OOS admits had higher scores than the median California admit. It's all about how you frame the numbers.

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Well that just burns me. Let's get rid of that 50% of students that are below the mean; and admit only those that are above the mean.:headbang:p

GivemTheAxe;842672606 said:

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Well that just burns me. Let's get rid of that 50% of students that are below the mean; and admit only those that are above the mean.:headbang:p

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Technically speaking, less than 50% of the students are below the mean because the distribution is very likely skewed to the left. :p

GivemTheAxe;842672605 said:

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let's not get too high and mighty on social programs. A heck of a lot of money goes to prisons proportionally. Unless prisons are considered social programs.

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Just calling it like it is. Here are the actual numbers from the Governor's 2016-2017 state budget:

Health and Human Services: $52.541 billion (30.8% of total budget)
Corrections & Rehabilitation: $13.306 billion (7.8% of total budget)
K-12 Education: $51.441 billion (30.1% of total budget)
Higher Education: $14.902 billion (8.7% of total budget)

http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2016-17/pdf/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf

pingpong2;842672574 said:

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Article from two years ago:


http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-out-of-state-20140818-story.html

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Right. If you look at the profile numbers, it looks like everyone is being held to about the same admission standards with California applicants actually getting a bit of a bump... seems pretty fair to me.

GivemTheAxe;842672605 said:

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let's not get too high and mighty on social programs. A heck of a lot of money goes to prisons proportionally. Unless prisons are considered social programs.

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Well, no one in my family benefits from the prison system. No free room and board with an occasional execution for four generations of us now. The residents of the prison system have all the luck. And of course the law enforcement unions.