oski003;842701427 said:

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Put them in Mexico, build a wall, and have Mexico pay for it?

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The comedy

OdontoBear66;842701425 said:

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That would be a toughy WIAF. Here tell there are upwards of one million of them in the state. Just can't see exporting 1 million alligators, and to where?

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Sorry PETA fans, but to purses, shoes, and trophy cases? Oski 3,000 has a better answer.

That said, the gun folks will be drawing an analogy here with all the guns (including the kind used in Orlando) out there.

The Gun Economy

47% Percentage of Americans say they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property, according to Gallup, the highest reported number in two decades

$6 billion Estimated annual revenue generated by the gun and ammunition industry in the U.S., according to an analysis by business research firm Hoovers

310 million Estimated number of firearms in the U.S., according to the federal government, which includes 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns

209,750 Number of jobs related to the firearm industry in 2012, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which estimates that $9.8 billion in annual wages are earned annually

30% Percentage increase in employment in the industry between 2008 and 2011, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation

131,806 Number of federally licensed firearms and ammunition dealers in the U.S., about four times as many the number of grocery stores, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

5,459,240 Number of new firearms manufactured in the U.S. in 2011, 95% of which are sold domestically, according to the ATF

3,252,404 Number of firearms imported into the U.S. (529,056 shotguns, 998,072 rifles, and 1,725,276 handguns) in 2010, according to the ATF

846,619 Number of firearms imported into the U.S. in 2011 from Brazil, the leading gun importer to the U.S., according to the ATF

$29,818,880 Market value lost by gun manufacturer Smith & Wesson after its stock price decreased by 5.2% on Monday, December 17, amid what the Los Angeles Times called "a surge in discussion about gun control" after the school shooting in Newtown, Conn.

$1,197 to $1,391 Suggested retail price for the Bushmaster .223 caliber M4 carbine, the rifle used by Adam Lanza in the Newtown school shooting, according to Reuters

16,808,538 Number of background checks on firearm purchasers conducted by the FBI this year through November, an all-time record

78,211 Number of firearm purchase denials by the FBI in 2011, about 0.48% of all attempted purchases

899,099 Number of firearm purchases that have been denied by the FBI between November 30, 1998 (when the FBI began processing background checks) and December 31, 2011. Of those, 7,879 were denied because of issues relating to the would-be purchaser's mental health

62% Percentage of private gun sellers who agreed to sell a firearm to a buyer who couldn't pass a background check, according to an undercover investigation by New York City public officials

154,873 Number of point-of-sale background checks conducted by the FBI on Black Friday this year, the most ever and a 20% increase from Black Friday 2011

2,006,919 Number of background checks performed in November, according to the FBI, an all-time record

$5.1 billion Estimated federal and state taxes (business and excise) generated by the industry in 2012, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation

$136 million Revenue for firearm manufacturer Smith & Wesson in the second quarter, which increased by 48% (from $92 million) from the previous quarter; profits at Smith & Wesson have risen by 140% since President Barack Obama's election in 2008, according to Forbes, a trend that's been widely interpreted as anticipation of possible gun control legislation from the White House.

17-to-1 Ratio of gun-rights lobbyist spending to gun control lobbyist spending in 2011, according to opensecrets.org and an analysis by Republic Report. Gun rights groups spent $4,212,996; gun control groups spent $240,000.

$14 million Amount of money the National Rifle Association spent during the 2012 election in an attempt to defeat President Obama, according to The New York Times

47,856 Number of people who have been killed in the U.S. by firearms between 2006 and 2010, according to the FBI

There are 9 million AR-15s in circulation as of 2014, and people want them all gone because of 1 nut?

Strykur;842701452 said:

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There are 9 million AR-15s in circulation as of 2014, and people want them all gone because of 1 nut?

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People want them gone not just because of one nut, but because with 9 million of them circulating, chances are pretty good that another nut is going to use one to kill many more innocents. How would you feel if the next time, someone from your immediate family was one of the victims? Would you be so willing to have that many AR15's (and other firearms) so readily available?

Strykur;842701452 said:

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There are 9 million AR-15s in circulation as of 2014, and people want them all gone because of 1 nut?

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The fact that 9 million AR-15s are in circulation makes me want to buy an AR-15 and board up in my house.

NYCGOBEARS;842701453 said:

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How would you feel if the next time, someone from your immediate family was one of the victims? Would you be so willing to have that many AR15's (and other firearms) so readily available?

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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 614,348
Cancer: 591,699
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
Alzheimer's disease: 93,541
Diabetes: 76,488
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,227
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 48,146
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773

I am far more concerned with losing immediate family due to heart disease, cancer, an accident not related to gun violence, a strokes or other ailment.

The number of killings per year in the US from gun violence is around 13,000, a proportionally very small number among leading causes of death, and far less likely than what else is more likely to happen. Amazing that 9 million AR-15s has almost no impact overall on death in America.

Strykur;842701458 said:

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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 614,348
Cancer: 591,699
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
Alzheimer's disease: 93,541
Diabetes: 76,488
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,227
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 48,146
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773

I am far more concerned with losing immediate family due to heart disease, cancer, an accident not related to gun violence, a strokes or other ailment.

The number of killings per year in the US from gun violence is around 13,000, a proportionally very small number among leading causes of death, and far less likely than what else is more likely to happen. Amazing that 9 million AR-15s has almost no impact overall on death in America.

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Nice straw man.

Strykur;842701458 said:

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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 614,348
Cancer: 591,699
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
Alzheimer's disease: 93,541
Diabetes: 76,488
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,227
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 48,146
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773

I am far more concerned with losing immediate family due to heart disease, cancer, an accident not related to gun violence, a strokes or other ailment.

The number of killings per year in the US from gun violence is around 13,000, a proportionally very small number among leading causes of death, and far less likely than what else is more likely to happen. Amazing that 9 million AR-15s has almost no impact overall on death in America.

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I've seen enough of your posts to know you are a smart guy, and so I know you know that was an intellectually dishonest argument. There's a very big difference (differences, really) between the causes of death you cited and guns, and you know what that is. I've had people tell me "Shooting an AR-15 is fun." I don't think that particularly matters in determining whether they should be legal, but at least the argument is honest.

What I don't get is if all these white people are complaining about how bad the economy is and how real wages have gone down (and it really is white people), what are they doing buying so many expensive weapons and munitions? People complain about food stamps recipients buying Air Jordans but take no issue with the poors buying glocks?

As Yakof Smirnoff would say - "what a country!"

here we go...I give it 24 hours and we'll see a "OT Why no Orlando Discussion Discussion" post

In the comments section of one of the NY Times articles about the Disney event (which as a father of a young child hit me particularly hard) someone noted "If the boy's father hard been armed with an assault rifle, this tragedy could have been avoided."

What is sad is I am sure some people actually think this way, although I have to believe the comment was made in jest with an ironic bent. What a strange world we live in. No doubt if someone went on a shooting rampage in Disneyland there will be those who will say the same thing.

Unit2Sucks;842701466 said:

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What I don't get is if all these white people are complaining about how bad the economy is and how real wages have gone down (and it really is white people), what are they doing buying so many expensive weapons and munitions? People complain about food stamps recipients buying Air Jordans but take no issue with the poors buying glocks?

As Yakof Smirnoff would say - "what a country!"

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Black people like Glocks too

Wu-Tang Clan
"Da Glock"

Bone Thugs N Harmony
"Shotz to the Double Glock"

Uffie
"Pop the Glock"

Lloyd Banks
"Not Without My Glock"

Cypress Hill
"Hand on the Glock"

Terror Squad
"Pass the Glock"

Tru
"Ain't No Glock"

Shyheim
"Twin Glocks"

T.I.
"2 Glock 9s"

Lil Phat
"My Glock"

ConeJo
"Got the Glock"

Hot Dollar
"Two Steppin' With My Glock"

Downset
"Black Glock"

Papoose
"Glock Busta"

Heather B
"All Glocks Down"

One 50
"Glock 17"

Evol Intent
"Glock Party"

Vicious
"The Glock Song"

Bizzy Bone
"Automatic Glock"

Fabolous
"Hand on My Glock"

Mac Dre
"Maggots on My Glock"

DJ Paul
"Glock in My Draws"

Captain Dan and the Scurvy
"Flintlock Glock"

Booty Star
"Glock Tawk"

and the Oscar-winning Three-6 Mafia
"Mask and Da Glock"

Yeah but black people buy like one glock. Black people may rap about glocks but white people are the ones hoarding weapons and blogging about their bugoutbags and strategies to survive the zombie apocalypse.

Wow, we've gone racial.

Unit2Sucks;842701479 said:

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Yeah but black people buy like one glock. Black people may rap about glocks but white people are the ones hoarding weapons and blogging about their bugoutbags and strategies to survive the zombie apocalypse.

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Yeah, but Blacks are very much on the user end of the biz.

GB54;842701481 said:

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Yeah, but Blacks are very much on the user end of the biz.

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We forgot about the Mexicans. I bet Sinaloa Cartel members love Glocks too. Let's be inclusive.

It's only a matter of time before we start the official best burrito and gunshoperia thread.

Unit2Sucks;842701485 said:

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It's only a matter of time before we start the official best burrito and gunshoperia thread.

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Can we add Mezcal to that?

oski003;842701454 said:

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The fact that 9 million AR-15s are in circulation makes me want to buy an AR-15 and board up in my house.

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Soon to be 9,000,001. Actually I may need to buy a Saiga 12-gauge first. Way more fun and may be off the market before too long.... Semi auto AK 47 fitted to fire 12 gauge shotgun shells. 20 round magazine. I can probably get a rabbit or two with that...

txwharfrat;842701491 said:

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Soon to be 9,000,001. Actually I may need to buy a Saiga 12-gauge first. Way more fun and may be off the market before too long.... Semi auto AK 47 fitted to fire 12 gauge shotgun shells. 20 round magazine. I can probably get a rabbit or two with that...

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You could kill a lot of people in a really short time with that.

txwharfrat;842701491 said:

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Soon to be 9,000,001. Actually I may need to buy a Saiga 12-gauge first. Way more fun and may be off the market before too long.... Semi auto AK 47 fitted to fire 12 gauge shotgun shells. 20 round magazine. I can probably get a rabbit or two with that...

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And five or six neighbors...

Built around an AK 47 it should be convertible to full auto. Twenty 12 gauge rounds in a few seconds should provide a hell of a kick.

Unit2Sucks;842701485 said:

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It's only a matter of time before we start the official best burrito and gunshoperia thread.

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I like Glocko Bell

GB54;842701499 said:

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I like Glocko Bell

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Lol

GB54;842701499 said:

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I like Glocko Bell

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That is a "personal best" post by GB54 right there....

oski003;842701454 said:

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The fact that 9 million AR-15s are in circulation makes me want to buy an AR-15 and board up in my house.

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The average price of an AR-15 is hovering just over $1,000 (all time high was around $2,500, and a modern low of middle $600s) and will likely go up as the push for eliminating them starts-up again. Forgetting the issues of copy cat type guns for the moment, the Constitution will require compensation for taking the AR-15s. Assuming most gun owners turn their AR-15s in after the time the legislation is passed and upheld in the court system (none of which is a slam dunk), let's say that there is 9,000,000 guns times say $1,500 or $14,000,000,000. Is this the new stimulus plan, in which case there probably is no room for much other new discretionary spending? I assume any vote is political, because no one from either party wants to deal with the practical consequences of banning guns. Then there is the issue with copycats or minor modifications. This is could become very costly. The only way an effective ban of assault type weapons happens is a Constitutional Amendment banning an entire class of gun without compensation to existing owners. That is not gonna happen - see my post re: the business of guns. This post is not intended to assert the pros or cons of assault rifle gun control, but to suggest everyone take a deep breath and consider the practical realities of the situation.

wifeisafurd;842701564 said:

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The average price of an AR-15 is hovering just over $1,000 (all time high was around $2,500, and a modern low of middle $600s) and will likely go up as the push for eliminating them starts-up again. Forgetting the issues of copy cat type guns for the moment, the Constitution will require compensation for taking the AR-15s. Assuming most gun owners turn their AR-15s in after the time the legislation is passed and upheld in the court system (none of which is a slam dunk), let's say that there is 9,000,000 guns times say $1,500 or $14,000,000,000. Is this the new stimulus plan, in which case there probably is no room for much other new discretionary spending? I assume any vote is political, because no one from either party wants to deal with the practical consequences of banning guns. Then there is the issue with copycats or minor modifications. This is could become very costly. The only way an effective ban of assault type weapons happens is a Constitutional Amendment banning an entire class of gun without compensation to existing owners. That is not gonna happen - see my post re: the business of guns. This post is not intended to assert the pros or cons of assault rifle gun control, but to suggest everyone take a deep breath and consider the practical realities of the situation.

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The 5th Amendment requires "just compensation" when private property is taken for public use. If AR-15s are outlawed, the U.S. government won't have to pay a dime. Do we pay drug dealers the street value of their drugs when we confiscate those? No.

You are likely correct that this isn't going to happen. But it's not impossible. It has happened in other countries. They took away guns. It won't be easy, and it'll be costly, but I'll gladly pay my share of the costs if it means we reduce these awful mass shootings.

grandmastapoop;842701572 said:

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... Do we pay drug dealers the street value of their drugs when we confiscate those? No.

...

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Actually we confiscate their cars and weapons and other personal property if drugs are involved. My daughter got a 2015 Infiniti QX
a few months ago. I wondered how my son in law could afford that car on his trooper's salary. I asked him if it was a DEA
confiscation? He smiled said "do you think I could afford that car if it wasn't?"

grandmastapoop;842701462 said:

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I've seen enough of your posts to know you are a smart guy, and so I know you know that was an intellectually dishonest argument. There's a very big difference (differences, really) between the causes of death you cited and guns, and you know what that is. I've had people tell me "Shooting an AR-15 is fun." I don't think that particularly matters in determining whether they should be legal, but at least the argument is honest.

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Here's the thing: shooting a gun is fun. At least for me, since I have done it and know firsthand, and non-criminal accidents with shooting guns are pretty rare. Again, I find the hysteria with firearms bizarre because the likelihood of being involved in a deadly incident with such a device is actually very, very small. Simple explanation for gun panic is fear of the unknown, once you have handled a weapon, opinions may change.

Although obviously not pertinent, I studied constitutional law at Berkeley, and I am pretty confident that the Second Amendment as established is set in stone. Forget about substantive gun control as long as it is in our body of laws.

Shooting guns is fun but it comes with great responsibility

Where are Son of Trump and BeezleTrump?

Strykur;842701665 said:

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Here's the thing: shooting a gun is fun. At least for me, since I have done it and know firsthand, and non-criminal accidents with shooting guns are pretty rare. Again, I find the hysteria with firearms bizarre because the likelihood of being involved in a deadly incident with such a device is actually very, very small. Simple explanation for gun panic is fear of the unknown, once you have handled a weapon, opinions may change.

Although obviously not pertinent, I studied constitutional law at Berkeley, and I am pretty confident that the Second Amendment as established is set in stone. Forget about substantive gun control as long as it is in our body of laws.

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The present interpretation to allow private gun ownership has only been true since 2008, in Columbia v. Heller. And that was 5-4. It is of course the law at present, but Columbia overturned decades of case law and could be overturned as well. I agree with you that it is unlikey to happen, but it could.

grandmastapoop;842701695 said:

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The present interpretation to allow private gun ownership has only been true since 2008, in Columbia v. Heller. And that was 5-4. It is of course the law at present, but Columbia overturned decades of case law and could be overturned as well. I agree with you that it is unlikey to happen, but it could.

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The dissenting opinion in that case -
the "right to keep and bear arms" protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia
would have fundamentally changed gun ownership rights for individuals who were not part of a state-organized militia. A swing of one vote
would certainly be possible given the current court vacancy and a turbulent election year.

The states' right to have a state-organized militia was originally from the English Bill of Rights for the purpose of
deterring tyrannical government. This states Rights issue framed the basis for the Confederacy to withdraw
from the Union. However revision of this States' right, delineated in the 2nd amendment of the Constitution, was
accomplished not in court, but by military action. To this day many Southerner's view the "War Between the States"
as a States' Rights battle.

Another distinction in the evolution from the English Bill of Rights into our current 2nd amendment debates is that
the English restricted the rights of ownership to lawful weapons. The current debate is not over 'gun ownership',
but instead 'weapons ownership' and should be framed as such. The English have restricted the private ownership of
military weapons while in this country we have allowed the private ownership of weapons developed for military use;
the Glock 17 being a popular example, but much bigger military weapons are in private hands.

The current debate should be rebranded and refocused on "weapons control" which military weapons should be available
to the private citizen. Donald Trump could afford a nuclear weapon of his own, should he be allowed to own one just
because he can afford it?

At the end of the day

What is really going to happen?

1 nobody is giving up their arms easily no matter what?

2 Will the country lose its bearing and get flipped upside down civil unrest ?

3 ________ you fill in the blank

grandmastapoop;842701695 said:

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The present interpretation to allow private gun ownership has only been true since 2008, in Columbia v. Heller. And that was 5-4. It is of course the law at present, but Columbia overturned decades of case law and could be overturned as well. I agree with you that it is unlikey to happen, but it could.

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Agree on all you said. Gun "control" is absolutely allowed under Heller in any event, as made clear by the majority opinion. To me, the question comes down to "arms." How do we define "arms"? We know we don't get nuclear devices, fully automatic guns, RPGs, flame throwers, etc. The question remains where to draw the line. The court in Heller said hand guns are OK, but allowed for regulation of them...just not outright prohibition. Further line drawing in the courts will unfold over time. The recent 9th Circuit decision on concealed carry was an interesting read on gun control history up to and including Heller. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/general/2016/06/09/10-56971%206-9%20EB%20opinion%20plus%20webcites.pdf

[edited to add that the justice who wrote the 9th Circuit decision on concealed carry was my former Boalt professor, Willie Fletcher--great guy and great professor]

Gun control has evolved to more of a local issue. Gavin Newsome has a proposition on this year's ballot that would require owners of large capacity magazines to actually turn them in, plus background checks for buying ammo. I don't agree with it but do like the principle that different regulations serve different communities. If Texas wants to allow guns on campus and California wants to restrict ammo, it makes more sense to me than federal action