Tell you what: Since you're so sure it never happens, why don't you tell us all the players that said they were transferring to get their masters but didn't do it.ayetee11 said:MoragaBear said:
I don't understand the complete unwillingness on the part of some people to accept that there are plenty of players that want to leverage the opportunity to get a free masters, especially those that aren't likely to play professionally. That doesn't describe everyone but the numbers aren't small or nonexistent, as some seem to insist.
If you can get a masters you're interested in and find yourself in a better competitive situation, too, it's a double bonus.
Think about it if it were you or your kid. Maybe you'd stay put or advise your kid to do so, no matter what the circumstances. But many of you would transfer, too, or advise it for your kid, if you're really being honest.
Please list the kids what were Grad Transfers to other programs that finished their masters at that program. I would be curious to see how many continued their education after football at that school.
Dylan Klumph Transferring To Arizona
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Quote:
but the numbers aren't small
In fact they are extremely small. (How many grad transfers occur each year in contrast to the number of D1 'seniors'?)
And while you are confirming those numbers, you might do some research to see how many FB players actually obtain a MA/MS at their new school.
Quote:
But many of you would transfer, too, or advise it for your kid, if you're really being honest.
As you note, it depends on the circumstances, both with the exisitng school and with the prospective grad program. A MS in Engineering from Stanford (Scarlett) is a no-brainer. Starting Law School as a D1 football player makes no sense whatsoever.
edited to add actual numbers per the ncaa:
Quote:
the number of graduate transfers is still low relative to the total number of participants in Division I sports. There were only 443 graduate transfers identified in the 2016 Division I academic performance data out of nearly 110,000 Division I student-athletes, which equates to less than one-half of 1 percent.
____
Only one-half of 1 percent of men's football student-athletes were graduate transfers in 2016. However, the number of such cases has increased sevenfold since 2011 (17 in 2011, 117 in 2016).
And finally, per the ncaa:
"in football and basketball...data....showing that many transfers in those two sports earn few graduate credits and leave school when their athletics eligibility expires."
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First of all, I never said the number of grad transfers are large. I said the number of grad transfers that do so legitimately in pursuit of a masters degrees aren't small. I love how some seem to be authorities on most players' stated objectives being fraudulent.
As for what other programs' grad transfers do as far as completing their masters, that has nothing to do with Cal. The circumstances, as anyone knows, are much different at Cal. Cal has a different caliber of student and also provides far less opportunity for a player to earn a masters. If you don't want one in public health, it's virtually impossible to gain admission in any other grad program at Cal, so for players who truly want their masters to be paid for, they'll often have to go elsewhere to get them.
As for what other programs' grad transfers do as far as completing their masters, that has nothing to do with Cal. The circumstances, as anyone knows, are much different at Cal. Cal has a different caliber of student and also provides far less opportunity for a player to earn a masters. If you don't want one in public health, it's virtually impossible to gain admission in any other grad program at Cal, so for players who truly want their masters to be paid for, they'll often have to go elsewhere to get them.
71Bear said:Well said, Jim. I agree 100%....MoragaBear said:
I don't understand the complete unwillingness on the part of some people to accept that there are plenty of players that want to leverage the opportunity to get a free masters, especially those that aren't likely to play professionally. That doesn't describe everyone but the numbers aren't small or nonexistent, as some seem to insist.
If you can get a masters you're interested in and find yourself in a better competitive situation, too, it's a double bonus.
Think about it if it were you or your kid. Maybe you'd stay put or advise your kid to do so, no matter what the circumstances. But many of you would transfer, too, or advise it for your kid, if you're really being honest.
Then maybe you can name multiple kids who continued the masters program after they ran out of eligibility?
MoragaBear is usually well informed about Cal football. Not so much here, though.Big Dog said:
"in football and basketball...[NCAA] data....showing that many transfers in those two sports earn few graduate credits and leave school when their athletics eligibility expires."
The NCAA stats shown in this thread clearly demonstrate that football & basketball grad transfers are transferring to get playing time at another school. The guise that the motivation for transferring is to "continue education" or get a "Master's degree" is simple bologna. Obviously.
So obvious that it silly to contest this fact.
The current rules permit the transferring. These rules should change to force the player to sit out a year like any other program transfer imo.
Those players (extremely few though they are) could start their advanced degree during the sit-out year).
You're fearful grad transfers would not get scholarships if they have to sit out a year to play their last year? Proof that this issue has nothing to do with academics. Neither the grad transfers nor the scholarship granting schools have any interest other than immediate playing time.
Let's stop this charade/nonsense and discuss the rule for what it really is being used for - playing time, period.
This is probably the case but why should the players not be allowed to exploit this loophole in the system to their own benefit? Universities are making money off of their talents and the athletes don't get to see a dollar of it (technically speaking) so why shouldn't they be allowed to control where they take their talent as opposed to being pigeonholed further in a system that favors coaches and schools over the athlete?Bear19 said:MoragaBear is usually well informed about Cal football. Not so much here, though.Big Dog said:
"in football and basketball...[NCAA] data....showing that many transfers in those two sports earn few graduate credits and leave school when their athletics eligibility expires."
The NCAA stats shown in this thread clearly demonstrate that football & basketball grad transfers are transferring to get playing time at another school. The guise that the motivation for transferring is to "continue education" or get a "Master's degree" is simple bologna. Obviously.
So obvious that it silly to contest this fact.
The current rules permit the transferring. These rules should change to force the player to sit out a year like any other program transfer imo.
Those players (extremely few though they are) could start their advanced degree during the sit-out year).
You're fearful grad transfers would not get scholarships if they have to sit out a year to play their last year? Proof that this issue has nothing to do with academics. Neither the grad transfers nor the scholarship granting schools have any interest other than immediate playing time.
Let's stop this charade/nonsense and discuss the rule for what it really is being used for - playing time, period.
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All of you people that are saying grad transfers are always for playing time, period. are calling all players that cite their desire for masters degrees, including many Cal players, liars. That's complete bs.
There are plenty of players that transfer for purely playing time reasons but there are plenty who transfer for the masters, as well. Many transfer for both the masters and for potential better playing time options. That doesn't need to be mutually exclusive, yet many here claim to know that graduate degrees have zero to do with all or virtually all grad transfers.
Cal's had grad transfers here that came almost solely for the masters degree, in fact, and playing time was almost an afterthought.
Let's stop pointing cynical and accusatory fingers at things we know little about beyond our personal suspicions. It reflects poorly on the fan base, to say the least.
There are plenty of players that transfer for purely playing time reasons but there are plenty who transfer for the masters, as well. Many transfer for both the masters and for potential better playing time options. That doesn't need to be mutually exclusive, yet many here claim to know that graduate degrees have zero to do with all or virtually all grad transfers.
Cal's had grad transfers here that came almost solely for the masters degree, in fact, and playing time was almost an afterthought.
Let's stop pointing cynical and accusatory fingers at things we know little about beyond our personal suspicions. It reflects poorly on the fan base, to say the least.
Quote:
All of you people that are saying grad transfers are always for playing time, period.
Come on, MB, your critical reading skills are better than that.
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I didn't say everyone is saying it's solely for playing time. You apparently missed my "that" qualifier and you left out the rest of my sentence. That's either a misread of my comment or a deliberate misrepresentation.Big Dog said:Quote:
All of you people that are saying grad transfers are always for playing time, period.
Come on, MB, your critical reading skills are better than that.
I'm not saying everyone thinks it's all about playing time. I'm saying for those that do say that, essentially calling most or all players liars, and that's bs.
I'm still waiting for names that continued after eligibility expired. I'll shut up about it once names are included. Tartwater is the only one I can possibly think of in any sport. The rest was for playing time.
*Tarwater*. Though I'm only commenting on it because I think "Tartwater" would have been awesome to hear on the Haas PA after that 3 against UCLA!ayetee11 said:
I'm still waiting for names that continued after eligibility expired. I'll shut up about it once names are included. Tartwater is the only one I can possibly think of in any sport. The rest was for playing time.
grant mullins
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This is too easy.ayetee11 said:
I'm still waiting for names that continued after eligibility expired. I'll shut up about it once names are included. Tartwater is the only one I can possibly think of in any sport. The rest was for playing time.
Mullins, Tarwater, Sebastian, Tyler Krieg (Duke OL grad transfer to Cal) and Stuckey, to name just five of those non-existent grad transfers that actually got masters degrees. .Coutts is nearly there, too. There are lots more from tons of programs where students got their masters after being grad transfers. I'm confident Cochran will at Oklahoma State if he has no pro options and I expect Rooks to get his masters at SDSU, too.
Meanwhile, we're waiting for you to name all your names to support your assertions that almost no grad transfers get or even aspire to get masters degrees.
They are either kidding themselves or are trying to spin the decision. I particularly don't like the "I'm a Bear for life" BS when the player is going to put on a different uniform & play against Cal. No, they are now a AZ wildcat, furdie, or Illinois illini , etc. They could have been "a Bear for life" but decided to take their talents elsewhere.MoragaBear said:
All of you people that are saying grad transfers are always for playing time, period. are calling all players that cite their desire for masters degrees, including many Cal players, liars.
Our society has come to consider spin to be equivalent to actual truth. Go figure.
Big Dog pointed out the the NCAA stats show that as soon as playing eligibility ends very few transfers continue to actually finish a degree program. In fact very few actually get academic credits.
Those are the NCAA stats. You can point out a handful of players who did get their graduate degree, but those folks are far & few between.
As long as the rule exists then obviously players can use it for whatever reason. I'm arguing for more honesty - "I'm leaving to get more playing time, bye" and for a rule change to make the grad transfer the same as any other transfer.
Assuming that doesn't happen, then coaches should simply burn the freshman redshirt year for players to insure four years of investment in the player's development isn't wasted with the kid jumping ship just when they should be most productive.
MoragaBear said:This is too easy.ayetee11 said:
I'm still waiting for names that continued after eligibility expired. I'll shut up about it once names are included. Tartwater is the only one I can possibly think of in any sport. The rest was for playing time.
Mullins, Tarwater, Sebastian, Tyler Krieg (Duke OL grad transfer to Cal) and Stuckey, to name just five of those non-existent grad transfers that actually got masters degrees. .Coutts is nearly there, too. There are lots more from tons of programs where students got their masters after being grad transfers. I'm confident Cochran will at Oklahoma State if he has no pro options and I expect Rooks to get his masters at SDSU, too.
Meanwhile, we're waiting for you to name all your names to support your assertions that almost no grad transfers get or even aspire to get masters degrees.
Davis Webb, Brandon Scarlett, Jordan Matthews, Hardy Nickerson, Michael Barton, the great Zach Kline.
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That's all you've got?ayetee11 said:MoragaBear said:This is too easy.ayetee11 said:
I'm still waiting for names that continued after eligibility expired. I'll shut up about it once names are included. Tartwater is the only one I can possibly think of in any sport. The rest was for playing time.
Mullins, Tarwater, Sebastian, Tyler Krieg (Duke OL grad transfer to Cal) and Stuckey, to name just five of those non-existent grad transfers that actually got masters degrees. .Coutts is nearly there, too. There are lots more from tons of programs where students got their masters after being grad transfers. I'm confident Cochran will at Oklahoma State if he has no pro options and I expect Rooks to get his masters at SDSU, too.
Meanwhile, we're waiting for you to name all your names to support your assertions that almost no grad transfers get or even aspire to get masters degrees.
Davis Webb, Brandon Scarlett, Jordan Matthews, Hardy Nickerson, Michael Barton, the great Zach Kline.
Webb's in the NFL and said he plans to continue to pursue completion of his masters. Scarlett's in the NFL. And how do you know he didn't complete one of Stanford's 1 year masters degrees? Matthews is still playing and in his first year of his master's program. Nickerson's in the 2nd semester of his master's program. How do you know that Barton and Kline didn't finish their masters?
Exactly nobody said everyone that transfers does it to complete their masters. Anyone that contends that would be an idiot. Many did say that most or all transfer only for playing time reasons and they don't care about a masters. That's just flat wrong.
MoragaBear said:
I don't understand the complete unwillingness on the part of some people to accept that there are plenty of players that want to leverage the opportunity to get a free masters, especially those that aren't likely to play professionally. That doesn't describe everyone but the numbers aren't small or nonexistent, as some seem to insist.
If you can get a masters you're interested in and find yourself in a better competitive situation, too, it's a double bonus.
Think about it if it were you or your kid. Maybe you'd stay put or advise your kid to do so, no matter what the circumstances. But many of you would transfer, too, or advise it for your kid, if you're really being honest.
We all think it's great that kids leverage the system to get a free masters. We just wish Cal had half a chance to have some of those kids get the masters at Cal and play the 5th year here.
Avery Sebastian just got his MBA from Notre Dame. That seems pretty good.ayetee11 said:MoragaBear said:
I don't understand the complete unwillingness on the part of some people to accept that there are plenty of players that want to leverage the opportunity to get a free masters, especially those that aren't likely to play professionally. That doesn't describe everyone but the numbers aren't small or nonexistent, as some seem to insist.
If you can get a masters you're interested in and find yourself in a better competitive situation, too, it's a double bonus.
Think about it if it were you or your kid. Maybe you'd stay put or advise your kid to do so, no matter what the circumstances. But many of you would transfer, too, or advise it for your kid, if you're really being honest.
Please list the kids what were Grad Transfers to other programs that finished their masters at that program. I would be curious to see how many continued their education after football at that school.
Now that the players are "strongly encouraged" to stay on campus, taking classes, utilizing the training opportunities, let them graduate and move on. They are being used for entertainment purposes to a certain extent, and they should, in return, use the system.
If Cal decides to open a few more masters programs, fine.
If Cal decides to open a few more masters programs, fine.
As usual, Moraga Bear is right on target. People need a dose of reality here. We are not paying these players. This is not like an NFL contract. The value of free tuition, room, and board substantially diminishes if they have already earned a degree and cannot get into their Cal graduate program of choice. If they can graduate in four years, we should be proud of them for balancing rigorous academics and the full time job of playing FBS football. Once they have graduated, they should be free to go wherever they want for academic reasons or playing time without sitting out a year.MoragaBear said:
All of you people that are saying grad transfers are always for playing time, period. are calling all players that cite their desire for masters degrees, including many Cal players, liars. That's complete bs.
There are plenty of players that transfer for purely playing time reasons but there are plenty who transfer for the masters, as well. Many transfer for both the masters and for potential better playing time options. That doesn't need to be mutually exclusive, yet many here claim to know that graduate degrees have zero to do with all or virtually all grad transfers.
Cal's had grad transfers here that came almost solely for the masters degree, in fact, and playing time was almost an afterthought.
Let's stop pointing cynical and accusatory fingers at things we know little about beyond our personal suspicions. It reflects poorly on the fan base, to say the least.
So I don't get it with regards to Klumpf? Playing time?Bear19 said:One year grad programs are worthless the job market. Agree that Cal needs to come up with a way (a Cal one year program) to offer players 5th year playing time to offer our fair share of transfers we actually want to keep. Let's not kid ourselves - this is only about a 5th year of playing time, not academics.HoopDreams said:
What I don't like is it puts cal at another competitive disadvantage as it's tough to get into our grad schools, and we don't have one year grad programs, and we certainly don't have a one year masters of sports management degree
I only care that in the specific case of Dylan Klumph, we get to see his punting talents displayed VERY often in our game with Arizona, like maybe a dozen times or so.
OdontoBear66 said:So I don't get it with regards to Klumpf? Playing time?Bear19 said:One year grad programs are worthless the job market. Agree that Cal needs to come up with a way (a Cal one year program) to offer players 5th year playing time to offer our fair share of transfers we actually want to keep. Let's not kid ourselves - this is only about a 5th year of playing time, not academics.HoopDreams said:
What I don't like is it puts cal at another competitive disadvantage as it's tough to get into our grad schools, and we don't have one year grad programs, and we certainly don't have a one year masters of sports management degree
Notice how he never mentions the current staff in his note? Shouldn't assume it was 100% voluntary.
I have no inside knowledge, but we have a pretty good punter on the roster. Steven Coutts came in as a grad transfer from LA-Laf and I believe redshirted last year http://calbears.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=10216.
Isn't it probable that Dylan decided he would rather grad transfer to Arizona and play as opposed to taking an extra undergrad semester and sit?
I don't think anyone should be worked up about this. This is a win/win
Graduated - win
No talent drop off (better guy plays?) - win
Extra Scholly:? - win
Isn't it probable that Dylan decided he would rather grad transfer to Arizona and play as opposed to taking an extra undergrad semester and sit?
I don't think anyone should be worked up about this. This is a win/win
Graduated - win
No talent drop off (better guy plays?) - win
Extra Scholly:? - win
A lifetime of suffering as a Cal fan.
Dylan is a great guy and has done nothing but represent Cal in the best way possible. As some of you may know, he's a friend of mine. Actually a good friend. Obviously I'm ont going to go into any details, but suffice it to say this is a business. I'd advise people not to read more into things, it's really not productive and it's almost never accurate.
I'll miss Dylan in his last year. When he says forever a bear, he means it. We should just thank him for being a great rep for cal, for bringing his own sense of fun to the games, and congratulate him on his degree from Cal and on being a positive influence on APR.
Go Bears!
I'll miss Dylan in his last year. When he says forever a bear, he means it. We should just thank him for being a great rep for cal, for bringing his own sense of fun to the games, and congratulate him on his degree from Cal and on being a positive influence on APR.
Go Bears!
TheFiatLux said:
Dylan is a great guy and has done nothing but represent Cal in the best way possible. As some of you may know, he's a friend of mine. Actually a good friend. Obviously I'm ont going to go into any details, but suffice it to say this is a business. I'd advise people not to read more into things, it's really not productive and it's almost never accurate.
I'll miss Dylan in his last year. When he says forever a bear, he means it. We should just thank him for being a great rep for cal, for bringing his own sense of fun to the games, and congratulate him on his degree from Cal and on being a positive influence on APR.
Go Bears!
Well said Fiat. I think these kids absolutely should get everything they can out of these situations. If his better deal involves going somewhere else then he should go somewhere else. It just seems like in these cases it's always best for our players to go somewhere else. And so I wish Cal would 'play the game' better and make it, where possible, better for the kids to stay at Cal for their 5th year. And I admit I have no details or ideas on how to do this.
Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Since we paid for his degree. So, no, you don't get "freedom to do whatever you please" when someone else is paying the tab!packawana said:Can we please just acknowledge that we don't care that these are students who should have academic control over their future?Bear19 said:
We should allow these types of transfers to only non Pac-12 teams. I don't get why we don't do that.
This entitlement attitude - and acceptance of the entitlement attitude - sucks. You people making excuses for this entitlement will see this bite you in the arse. And I'm going to be laughing from some other country whose society doesn't share your lame belief system that'll be eating your lunch in 20 years.
Uthaithani said:Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Since we paid for his degree. So, no, you don't get "freedom to do whatever you please" when someone else is paying the tab!packawana said:Can we please just acknowledge that we don't care that these are students who should have academic control over their future?Bear19 said:
We should allow these types of transfers to only non Pac-12 teams. I don't get why we don't do that.
This entitlement attitude - and acceptance of the entitlement attitude - sucks. You people making excuses for this entitlement will see this bite you in the arse. And I'm going to be laughing from some other country whose society doesn't share your lame belief system that'll be eating your lunch in 20 years.
What's the sense of entitlement in this situation? We covered his tuition tab, yes, and he worked for it. Now someone else will cover the tab and he'll "work" for them. What's entitled about any of this?
Great, who's left on the roster who can talk trash to Mountain West schools?
Uthaithani said:Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Since we paid for his degree. So, no, you don't get "freedom to do whatever you please" when someone else is paying the tab!packawana said:Can we please just acknowledge that we don't care that these are students who should have academic control over their future?Bear19 said:
We should allow these types of transfers to only non Pac-12 teams. I don't get why we don't do that.
This entitlement attitude - and acceptance of the entitlement attitude - sucks. You people making excuses for this entitlement will see this bite you in the arse. And I'm going to be laughing from some other country whose society doesn't share your lame belief system that'll be eating your lunch in 20 years.
Wow, now who is the one with the sense of entitlement?
Entitlement??? A school provides education, room, and board. In exchange, a student engages in a risky activity with lifetime debilitating effects. The school pays the student nothing beyond what was previously mentioned, and reaps the benefits of ticket sales, merchandise sales, radio broadcast revenues, and television broadcast revenues.Uthaithani said:Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Since we paid for his degree. So, no, you don't get "freedom to do whatever you please" when someone else is paying the tab!packawana said:Can we please just acknowledge that we don't care that these are students who should have academic control over their future?Bear19 said:
We should allow these types of transfers to only non Pac-12 teams. I don't get why we don't do that.
This entitlement attitude - and acceptance of the entitlement attitude - sucks. You people making excuses for this entitlement will see this bite you in the arse. And I'm going to be laughing from some other country whose society doesn't share your lame belief system that'll be eating your lunch in 20 years.
"Exploitative" is the word I think you meant to write.
Wouldn't you think it's actually the govt, in the form of Title IX exploiting these student athletes? After all, the school is forced to subsidize revenue negative sports with the dollars football, and to a lesser extent, basketball generate. Sure, I guess they could find a way to get someone to coach on the cheap....but then I would expect any revenue to approach zero.
I mean, the US Gov is enforcing Title IX. But the NCAA is enforcing bs amateurism rules. Unless of course we think that we would start paying athletes and lifting monetization sanctions on high profile players if we were to drop Title IX. Personally, I doubt that'd be the case.SRBear said:
Wouldn't you think it's actually the govt, in the form of Title IX exploiting these student athletes? After all, the school is forced to subsidize revenue negative sports with the dollars football, and to a lesser extent, basketball generate. Sure, I guess they could find a way to get someone to coach on the cheap....but then I would expect any revenue to approach zero.
I am not saying I agree with Uthaithani, but I would not agree with you that the students are being exploited. Those that are good enough are being given a forum for showing their talents before they become professional football players. More importantly, the students are receiving an education from one of the top schools in the country, and most (if not all) of them would not otherwise be able to get into Cal. The vast majority of them will never have the chance to play professional football, and they will be able to get an education and a degree that will give them the ability to be very successful. Furthermore, no one is forcing anyone to play football. (On a side note, the school also covers meals and books and gives the students athletic clothing and gear.) Please do not misunderstand me to be saying that the current system is perfect. I am sure it can be improved in several ways, however, saying students are being exploited seems to be a bit extreme in my opinion.SoFlaBear said:Entitlement??? A school provides education, room, and board. In exchange, a student engages in a risky activity with lifetime debilitating effects. The school pays the student nothing beyond what was previously mentioned, and reaps the benefits of ticket sales, merchandise sales, radio broadcast revenues, and television broadcast revenues.Uthaithani said:Sure, I'll acknowledge that. Since we paid for his degree. So, no, you don't get "freedom to do whatever you please" when someone else is paying the tab!packawana said:Can we please just acknowledge that we don't care that these are students who should have academic control over their future?Bear19 said:
We should allow these types of transfers to only non Pac-12 teams. I don't get why we don't do that.
This entitlement attitude - and acceptance of the entitlement attitude - sucks. You people making excuses for this entitlement will see this bite you in the arse. And I'm going to be laughing from some other country whose society doesn't share your lame belief system that'll be eating your lunch in 20 years.
"Exploitative" is the word I think you meant to write.
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