OT: College For All ballot measure

19,624 Views | 187 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by going4roses
Cal84
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>The elitism is academic, not financial.

Not clear what you are proposing. There is already a clear incentive to getting admission and then graduating from a top tier university in the US. Indeed, one can surmise from the over demand from high school graduates striving for it, that the incentives for admission/graduation are already more than sufficient from a societal welfare viewpoint. The complaints are not that the rewards are inadequate, but rather that the costs are prohibitive for the less affluent.
OdontoBear66
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Cal84 said:

>The elitism is academic, not financial.

Not clear what you are proposing. There is already a clear incentive to getting admission and then graduating from a top tier university in the US. Indeed, one can surmise from the over demand from high school graduates striving for it, that the incentives for admission/graduation are already more than sufficient from a societal welfare viewpoint. The complaints are not that the rewards are inadequate, but rather that the costs are prohibitive for the less affluent.
Eh, the costs are prohibitive for most all (not all). The line for need is drawn low to help the neediest, but there are many middle to upper middle class families suffering with college costs, although they choose to opt in. The ultra rich, no, but to have merit wash tuition for the brightest regardless of need would provide a nice result, both for society in the future and families of students as they go through.
oski003
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this is oversimplifying but...

when i was an undergrad, some had an option of a full ride to USC or go to Cal and pay in-state.

when i went to law school, i had an option of a partial scholarship to the barely top 25 school i went to, a full ride to a tier 2 school, or paying full to a top 15 school.

does it still work this way? if u go to a school u overqualify for, they throw money at you?

wouldnt this help those in need who achieve in school?
LunchTime
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GBear4Life said:

Cal88 said:

Forget loans and subsidies, just cap tuition at $5k-6k/yr for public/in-state and $10k/yr for privates. Force colleges to slash administrative costs and have them focus on their core mission.

Also, cap the price of textbooks, have affordable digital versions available, or at least keep a fair revenue margin above printing costs for textbooks. The artificially inflated textbook market is a good example of college costs spiraling out of control. You have the worst kind of planned obsolescence there, with textbooks for subjects like calculus, econ or physics getting completely redone ever few years.
You think all universities have to do will be to slash [unneccessary] administrative labor to balance their budgets? All the while dependent on state legislature budgets every year while being forced to freeze and cap tuition/fees indefinitely?

Agreed on the textbooks. What a scam and gravy train for publishers. Just add a new 12 page chapter and we can publish a new edition to sell!
Actually, yes.

Purdue is doing exactly that.
going4roses
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A lot of interesting takes on this thread
Cal84
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>but to have merit wash tuition for the brightest regardless of need would provide a nice result

So it is a financial benefit you are proposing. Well, as I said previously, that would be difficult for the mass of students/parents of students to accept. I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or another on the matter, as I can see both benefits and costs, but politically it's untenable.

Oski003 wrote:

>does it still work this way? if u go to a school u overqualify for, they throw money at you?

It sort of does. Two schools that recently have begun recruiting high school students aggressively in my area are, wait for it....Alabama and Auburn. Both have been offering $40-60k in scholarships (over 4 years) to entice top students to swelter in the Deep South. Now as a practical matter that merely covers out of state tuition for a kid from the Bay Area. But they, somewhat surprisingly, have gotten some traction and some kids from our area have gone there. More commonly, you see mid-tier private schools offering scholarships to make them cost competitive with UC schools, as they are often competeting for the same HS grads. These can run up to $100k in nominal value over four years, although in reality they just decapitate the overcharged price tag of these institutions.
GivemTheAxe
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LunchTime said:

GBear4Life said:

Cal88 said:

Forget loans and subsidies, just cap tuition at $5k-6k/yr for public/in-state and $10k/yr for privates. Force colleges to slash administrative costs and have them focus on their core mission.

Also, cap the price of textbooks, have affordable digital versions available, or at least keep a fair revenue margin above printing costs for textbooks. The artificially inflated textbook market is a good example of college costs spiraling out of control. You have the worst kind of planned obsolescence there, with textbooks for subjects like calculus, econ or physics getting completely redone ever few years.
You think all universities have to do will be to slash [unneccessary] administrative labor to balance their budgets? All the while dependent on state legislature budgets every year while being forced to freeze and cap tuition/fees indefinitely?

Agreed on the textbooks. What a scam and gravy train for publishers. Just add a new 12 page chapter and we can publish a new edition to sell!
Actually, yes.

Purdue is doing exactly that.

You might not be aware that the Cal Library has already begun doing this putting class non-textbook materials available in digital form and doing the same for textbooks.
The biggest fight is with the largest publishers. But the Cal Library has been carrying on the fight to negotiate better copyright licenses that would allow text books to be digitized and made available at no or little cost. Most recently the Cal Library has joined forces with the other UC campuses and with other universities to try to break the stranglehold held by the largest textbook publishers

The fight has been long and hard because there is a lot of money to be made in textbook publishing and the larger publishers don't want to give away any of it.
OdontoBear66
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Cal84 said:

>but to have merit wash tuition for the brightest regardless of need would provide a nice result

So it is a financial benefit you are proposing. Well, as I said previously, that would be difficult for the mass of students/parents of students to accept. I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or another on the matter, as I can see both benefits and costs, but politically it's untenable.

Oski003 wrote:

>does it still work this way? if u go to a school u overqualify for, they throw money at you?

It sort of does. Two schools that recently have begun recruiting high school students aggressively in my area are, wait for it....Alabama and Auburn. Both have been offering $40-60k in scholarships (over 4 years) to entice top students to swelter in the Deep South. Now as a practical matter that merely covers out of state tuition for a kid from the Bay Area. But they, somewhat surprisingly, have gotten some traction and some kids from our area have gone there. More commonly, you see mid-tier private schools offering scholarships to make them cost competitive with UC schools, as they are often competeting for the same HS grads. These can run up to $100k in nominal value over four years, although in reality they just decapitate the overcharged price tag of these institutions.

Oh c'mon. Alabama and Auburn throw that kind of money at top notch students only because they would like to improve their "entering class performa" to demonstrate to all. The top notch schools do not need to do it and for the most part do not do it for they already get the best of the best academically to show their "entering class numbers". Why did USC do this for the last 25 years with all the leftover 4.0 plusses that didn't get into 'furd, Cal and UCLA? Why do they still ask the lower of their admittances to enter in the spring semester? Our merit qualified GDD got zero FA merit offers from Cal, UCLA, UW, Boston College, Georgetown, etc where she was accepted but the SMUs, SDSUs, and Cal Polys of the world had multiple incentive offers, mostly dollars. They simply want to increase their personna.

Good students, very good students who deserve the merit need help $$$$ wise if from middle or even most upper middle class families depending on the schools they choose to go to.
TomBear
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I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
dajo9
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TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
American Vermin
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.
sycasey
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.

I don't think that's his argument. He's just saying that wealthy people are not leaving CA, per the numbers.
Cal84
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>Good students, very good students who deserve the merit need help $$$$ wise if from middle or even most upper middle class families depending on the schools they choose to go to.

Those students still choose to spend the $$$ to go to those schools. So arguing that they get a raw deal, when it is something they voluntarily choose to do is a stretch. Particularly as that option isn't open at all to others. That having been said, I'm not entirely opposed to merit based benefits. Certainly in some other countries that is an approach that is used. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

And as far as 'Bama/Auburn, of course they are trying to improve their standing. My district is a hotbed for academic recruiting. It's why U of Texas has someone specifically assigned to us. Thing is, they still haven't gotten anyone to go there but 'Bama has. LOL. The point is that they, like the mid-tier privates need to be price competitive and the UCs are the price benchmark here. But it is giving our kids new options. Which isn't a bad thing.

CalBear93 wrote:

>California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

This reminds me of the time someone was visiting me from the Midwest and started complaining about house prices in the Midwest. Rather than reference Bay Area house prices, I simply said: "Yeah holding down home prices can be difficult, but there is a simple way to do it - just increase your unemployment rate to 20%. It worked charms for Detroit." Complaints about home prices ceased for the rest of the visit.


dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.
I mostly made some simple statements but. . .

Just so I understand your argument - you support legislation that would fundamentally change the character of communities that people live in without their consent? Got it. Sounds like a bit of big government intrusion to me, but each their own.

I live in a suburb and specifically chose, with my wife, not to live in a city because we find them too crowded. The Southern California coast is already very crowded in my opinion. I don't think anybody has a "right" to live in a given community. Communities are what they are - I generally support local control with the property taxes to support them. I guess I'm a good fit here in New Jersey.

I grew up in San Bernardino. I may have wanted to live in Newport Beach but couldn't afford it. I've been away a long time but are you telling me that San Bernardino is unaffordable now?
American Vermin
BearlyCareAnymore
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.
I'm a progressive but also a capitalist. The point is not to drive out the poor. It is to increase the prosperity of the state. If the number of high paying jobs increase allowing for people that live and work here to have more wealth that is a good thing. If that prices out unskilled labor jobs, than people have a "choice". They can get skilled so they can take advantage of the prosperity or they can follow the unskilled labor market and maybe have a better quality of life living where costs are lower. I'd argue that we don't give enough opportunities for people to better themselves, but that is a different question. People are not moving out because the state is less desirable. They are moving out because people with wealth are willing to pay for desirable things.

It is like if fewer people attempt to buy Warriors tickets because they are so expensive, it doesn't mean the Warriors are worse than before.
dajo9
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"Nobody lives in California anymore. It's too crowded"

Yogi Berra-ish
American Vermin
calbear93
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OaktownBear said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.
I'm a progressive but also a capitalist. The point is not to drive out the poor. It is to increase the prosperity of the state. If the number of high paying jobs increase allowing for people that live and work here to have more wealth that is a good thing. If that prices out unskilled labor jobs, than people have a "choice". They can get skilled so they can take advantage of the prosperity or they can follow the unskilled labor market and maybe have a better quality of life living where costs are lower. I'd argue that we don't give enough opportunities for people to better themselves, but that is a different question. People are not moving out because the state is less desirable. They are moving out because people with wealth are willing to pay for desirable things.

It is like if fewer people attempt to buy Warriors tickets because they are so expensive, it doesn't mean the Warriors are worse than before.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. The wonderful weather and the nature beauty of our state are beyond question, and not everyone is entitled to live here. Not everyone is entitled to live in a safe neighborhood or join a nice country club. Not everyone is entitled to attend a great college. It is a bit callous to those who are disenfranchised, but our economy has always been about rewarding those who add value with the spoils of success and acknowledging that not everyone is entitled to equal benefits, including living in a state that is desirable.

I would however question whether, for those who are not as fortunate as we are, an economic situation in a state that prevents them from having a reasonable place to live and eat at the same time doesn't make the state less desirable. It may make it more desirable for those like you if the unskilled labor are forced out, but those who are forced out may not share your opinion.

Ultimately, I think it is worthy of an eye roll for someone like dajo9 who argues how the rich are selfish to then make an argument that pricing out the less fortunate from a beautiful state is somehow a good thing.
OdontoBear66
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Cal84 said:

>Good students, very good students who deserve the merit need help $$$$ wise if from middle or even most upper middle class families depending on the schools they choose to go to.

Those students still choose to spend the $$$ to go to those schools. So arguing that they get a raw deal, when it is something they voluntarily choose to do is a stretch. Particularly as that option isn't open at all to others. That having been said, I'm not entirely opposed to merit based benefits. Certainly in some other countries that is an approach that is used. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

And as far as 'Bama/Auburn, of course they are trying to improve their standing. My district is a hotbed for academic recruiting. It's why U of Texas has someone specifically assigned to us. Thing is, they still haven't gotten anyone to go there but 'Bama has. LOL. The point is that they, like the mid-tier privates need to be price competitive and the UCs are the price benchmark here. But it is giving our kids new options. Which isn't a bad thing.

CalBear93 wrote:

>California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

This reminds me of the time someone was visiting me from the Midwest and started complaining about house prices in the Midwest. Rather than reference Bay Area house prices, I simply said: "Yeah holding down home prices can be difficult, but there is a simple way to do it - just increase your unemployment rate to 20%. It worked charms for Detroit." Complaints about home prices ceased for the rest of the visit.



You have to be careful when putting words in one's mouth. I never said word one about those students "getting a raw deal", but indicated just because they and their families maybe value education so much that they put the rest of their lives on hold---namely, many can use financial help too but don't hit the "bottom line" where attainable. The option of the top students being rewarded with free education is much more cost effective than "all students" getting same where this thread started, and also rewards excellence in achievement no matter the standard need levels. It also perpetuates the best for society in its end result.

Example: Family one makes $160,000/ year and no FA. Family two are a divorced mom and dad and dad makes $350,000 but the student goes under mom's finances and gets aid. I do not know this example is specifically correct, but am aware of more than one cases where this general description has played out.
GBear4Life
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dajo9 said:



Just so I understand your argument - you support legislation that would fundamentally change the character of communities that people live in without their consent? Got it.
you mean like immigration
dajo9
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GBear4Life said:

dajo9 said:



Just so I understand your argument - you support legislation that would fundamentally change the character of communities that people live in without their consent? Got it.
you mean like immigration


Yes, like immigration
American Vermin
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

OaktownBear said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

TomBear said:

I'll take issue with you SoCal........the people I know who have left and/or plan to leave are, if not wealthy, not poor. This was once a great state......
Your anecdote is yours. However, data exists. Incomes based on most likelihood to move in / out of California

Move out:
$15k - $30k
$45k - $55k

Move in:
$200k+

California is a great state. How do I know? Because of the demand to live there as shown by real estate prices.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html
Let me get this straight. You view adopting policies or allowing economic conditions that cause poor or middle class families to move out because they cannot afford to live in California as a positive? You are in favor of making this state only for rich people. Why not adopt policies to force homeless people to leave the neighborhood so that you have more space to lecture people on progressive policies and how compassionate you are. Some progressive you are.
I'm a progressive but also a capitalist. The point is not to drive out the poor. It is to increase the prosperity of the state. If the number of high paying jobs increase allowing for people that live and work here to have more wealth that is a good thing. If that prices out unskilled labor jobs, than people have a "choice". They can get skilled so they can take advantage of the prosperity or they can follow the unskilled labor market and maybe have a better quality of life living where costs are lower. I'd argue that we don't give enough opportunities for people to better themselves, but that is a different question. People are not moving out because the state is less desirable. They are moving out because people with wealth are willing to pay for desirable things.

It is like if fewer people attempt to buy Warriors tickets because they are so expensive, it doesn't mean the Warriors are worse than before.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. The wonderful weather and the nature beauty of our state are beyond question, and not everyone is entitled to live here. Not everyone is entitled to live in a safe neighborhood or join a nice country club. Not everyone is entitled to attend a great college. It is a bit callous to those who are disenfranchised, but our economy has always been about rewarding those who add value with the spoils of success and acknowledging that not everyone is entitled to equal benefits, including living in a state that is desirable.

I would however question whether, for those who are not as fortunate as we are, an economic situation in a state that prevents them from having a reasonable place to live and eat at the same time doesn't make the state less desirable. It may make it more desirable for those like you if the unskilled labor are forced out, but those who are forced out may not share your opinion.

Ultimately, I think it is worthy of an eye roll for someone like dajo9 who argues how the rich are selfish to then make an argument that pricing out the less fortunate from a beautiful state is somehow a good thing.


I have never argued the rich are selfish. I have argued rich Republicans are selfish.

Don't get me wrong about housing. I would greatly increase taxes on the wealthy and use it to pay for healthcare and education for the poor. This would lower desirable real estate prices and free up money for rent for the poor. So go ahead and roll your eyes. Have fun.
American Vermin
GBear4Life
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dajo9 said:

GBear4Life said:

dajo9 said:



Just so I understand your argument - you support legislation that would fundamentally change the character of communities that people live in without their consent? Got it.
you mean like immigration

Yes, like immigration
But you're against restricting immigration which can "change the character of communities that people live in without their consent". (I may have you confused with somebody else)
GBear4Life
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dajo9 said:





I have never argued the rich are selfish. I have argued rich Republicans are selfish.
But that's not true

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/republicans-give-more-to-charity-than-democrats-but-theres-a-bigger-story-here/
sycasey
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GBear4Life said:

But you're against restricting immigration

No, he's not. Not all liberals have the same views.
Cal84
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>I never said word one about those students "getting a raw deal"

You said they needed help. From the government. In the form of money.

These days, such appeals are almost always prefaced by the refrain that they are somehow getting screwed by "the system", aka getting a raw deal. If you don't think they are getting a raw deal, then fine. It then follows however that the pathos for the argument that they need help is diminished.

From my POV, the vast majority of kids in the top 6% of HS students are going to have options. They may not be as attractive as the options open to a kid whose parents are in the top 1 percentile of wealth, but there will still be good choices available.
GBear4Life
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sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

But you're against restricting immigration

No, he's not. Not all liberals have the same views.
Read

Quote:


(I may have you confused with somebody else)
sycasey
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GBear4Life said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

But you're against restricting immigration

No, he's not. Not all liberals have the same views.
Read

Quote:


(I may have you confused with somebody else)



In this case, you are correct. You have him confused with someone else.
dajo9
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GBear4Life said:

dajo9 said:





I have never argued the rich are selfish. I have argued rich Republicans are selfish.
But that's not true

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/republicans-give-more-to-charity-than-democrats-but-theres-a-bigger-story-here/
The article you linked to doesn't exactly support your argument
American Vermin
OdontoBear66
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Cal84 said:

>I never said word one about those students "getting a raw deal"

You said they needed help. From the government. In the form of money.

These days, such appeals are almost always prefaced by the refrain that they are somehow getting screwed by "the system", aka getting a raw deal. If you don't think they are getting a raw deal, then fine. It then follows however that the pathos for the argument that they need help is diminished.

From my POV, the vast majority of kids in the top 6% of HS students are going to have options. They may not be as attractive as the options open to a kid whose parents are in the top 1 percentile of wealth, but there will still be good choices available.

And their options will not be as attractive as those fortunate enough to get financial aid. Again, not talking about a "raw deal" but just observing that many middle to upper middle class families need financial help as they put their lives on hold to educate their students when in fact their students are excellent ones. There is an assumption by those who write the rules that anyone above "X Level" can afford it. It is just not so.
going4roses
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https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
sycasey
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going4roses said:

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
Rising income inequality and the oncoming largest voting age bracket is on the shortest end. Is anyone shocked that socialist ideas are getting more play these days?
Another Bear
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sycasey said:

going4roses said:

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
Rising income inequality and the oncoming largest voting age bracket is on the shortest end. Is anyone shocked that socialist ideas are getting more play these days?
Exactly, big generational change has been primed and it won't be a capitalist panacea. Quite the opposite, a reaction to an unbalanced system that has taken a generation or two for granted, if not downright screwed.
calbear93
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sycasey said:

going4roses said:

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
Rising income inequality and the oncoming largest voting age bracket is on the shortest end. Is anyone shocked that socialist ideas are getting more play these days?
This assumes that the millennial will remain in their current income bracket. Once they start making more money with better title, they may continue to talk the talk but the income tax bracket they will blame as not doing enough will also go up just slight above their bracket.

And socialism isn't a new thing. And young people thinking communism or socialism is the answer isn't new either. Many older people, including some of my friends and including me, who are now conservatives were in their youth enamored with the concept of equality in results.

NIMBY (including tax bracket location) is human nature. They may say they want something until they have to give up their possession they really care about. We all know that most people think it is OK to tax the wealth of others as long as the threshold is higher than what would impact them. Even most liberals are not OK with limits on ability to accumulate wealth on their houses or upon their ability to live away from all those they say they want to help. Most CA liberals in the tech industry rage against not taxing wealth until they realize that their stock options are a tax shelter as well.

No one thinks they are the problem. Most people just assume someone else should pay the price and they just get the moral superiority.

I personally hate bigger government and government intrusion because they are often used as a mechanism by covetous people with no intention of making personal sacrifice. Bigger government also takes away the pathway for personal acts of good (I don't view posting on a board as an act of good).

I hated the personal tax cut, while approving of the corporate tax cut (anyone who didn't see the competitive harm in having a higher tax rate than even Europe and the potential for corporate inversion and loss of additional revenues just didn't see the picture). I would argue with some of my more reasonable liberal friends that, because I was against the personal income tax cut, I was OK with limits on SALT deduction. They claim to want more taxes until it impacted them. They hated the SALT deduction limitation. I didn't. The fact that we can afford to pay high property tax means we can do more. I shouldn't be able to pass off some of the cost of living in CA and the corresponding tax that this state imposes on to others who are not fortunate enough to live here. I don't care what the true motivation for imposing the limit was. I cared that it probably was the right result.

I am going to use the same amount of my wealth and income to help the less fortunate no matter what. Whether it's through taxes or through charity, it would not have impacted my bottom line. I just don't think paying the government and funding the coffers controlled by politicians in bed with special interest is the best or even the most efficient way for me to be a steward of money I allocate for the benefit of others.
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

sycasey said:

going4roses said:

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
Rising income inequality and the oncoming largest voting age bracket is on the shortest end. Is anyone shocked that socialist ideas are getting more play these days?


I hated the personal tax cut, while approving of the corporate tax cut (anyone who didn't see the competitive harm in having a higher tax rate than even Europe and the potential for corporate inversion and loss of additional revenues just didn't see the picture). I would argue with some of my more reasonable liberal friends that, because I was against the personal income tax cut, I was OK with limits on SALT deduction. They claim to want more taxes until it impacted them. They hated the SALT deduction limitation. I didn't. The fact that we can afford to pay high property tax means we can do more. I shouldn't be able to pass off some of the cost of living in CA and the corresponding tax that this state imposes on to others who are not fortunate enough to live here. I don't care what the true motivation for imposing the limit was. I cared that it probably was the right result.

I am going to use the same amount of my wealth and income to help the less fortunate no matter what. Whether it's through taxes or through charity, it would not have impacted my bottom line. I just don't think paying the government and funding the coffers controlled by politicians in bed with special interest is the best or even the most efficient way for me to be a steward of money I allocate for the benefit of others.
The argument about the SALT deduction is a red herring. I support higher taxes for myself and have voted for them. Taking away the SALT deductions, however, was a blatant transfer of wealth from blue states to red states when blue states already give to more to the Federal Government than red states and receive less, relatively speaking. Fairness matters and the continued extraction of wealth from productive, progressive blue states to fund underperforming, conservative red states is unfair and worthy of rejection.
American Vermin
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

sycasey said:

going4roses said:

https://m.sfgate.com/business/article/The-average-millennial-has-an-average-net-worth-13909188.php
Rising income inequality and the oncoming largest voting age bracket is on the shortest end. Is anyone shocked that socialist ideas are getting more play these days?


I hated the personal tax cut, while approving of the corporate tax cut (anyone who didn't see the competitive harm in having a higher tax rate than even Europe and the potential for corporate inversion and loss of additional revenues just didn't see the picture). I would argue with some of my more reasonable liberal friends that, because I was against the personal income tax cut, I was OK with limits on SALT deduction. They claim to want more taxes until it impacted them. They hated the SALT deduction limitation. I didn't. The fact that we can afford to pay high property tax means we can do more. I shouldn't be able to pass off some of the cost of living in CA and the corresponding tax that this state imposes on to others who are not fortunate enough to live here. I don't care what the true motivation for imposing the limit was. I cared that it probably was the right result.

I am going to use the same amount of my wealth and income to help the less fortunate no matter what. Whether it's through taxes or through charity, it would not have impacted my bottom line. I just don't think paying the government and funding the coffers controlled by politicians in bed with special interest is the best or even the most efficient way for me to be a steward of money I allocate for the benefit of others.
The argument about the SALT deduction is a red herring. I support higher taxes for myself and have voted for them. Taking away the SALT deductions, however, was a blatant transfer of wealth from blue states to red states when blue states already give to more to the Federal Government than red states and receive less, relatively speaking. Fairness matters and the continued extraction of wealth from productive, progressive blue states to fund underperforming, conservative red states is unfair and worthy of rejection.
Dajo - this is such an inconsistent position from you. Yes, blue states already give more because we have more. We can afford to do more. You sound like typical conservatives who wonder why they should pay more in taxes when they already pay more than what they get back. Shouldn't rich people and rich states do more? Why is that not fair? Why is fair only when other "rich" people are taxed more?
 
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