Patrick Laird's WSJ Opinion Piece - "Is the campus free-speech crisis overblown?"

16,113 Views | 125 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Yogi011
NVBear78
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TheSouseFamily said:

Sure can't beat the irony of the same people making assumptions about this video without any context while sinultaneously lambasting anyone who made assumptions about the Covington video without much context.



Yeah, it was really bad seeing that kid punch the guy with the drum in the face on video. Wait, that never happened.

There is much more video you can see of this event on twitter and other places. Seems to be a assault plus a threat to shoot the guy no matter what you look at... but in CA tabling for conservatives is apparently asking for this.
Yogi58
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bearlyamazing said:


Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats. Are they racists? Do they hate their own people or are they self-loathing? No, they understand that Trump is not a racist and has done more for people of all colors through economic policies, prison reform, easing of manufacturing restrictions, cutting taxes for every tax bracket (not just the rich), etc than has been seen in a long time.
Stupidity exists amongst all races and creeds.

Didn't need to read any more past the above.
Richmondbear2
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Asians are not a minority?
NVBear78
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blungld said:

bearlyamazing said:

Let's put it this way: I challenge anyone here to stroll through campus wearing a Trump/Pence 2020 tee shirt and see the reaction. Or even better, a MAGA hat. See how many jeers and f-bombs you get. Then try it again in an Obama or Hillary shirt and see if you even hear a peep.

I think we all know what would happen in either instance.

There's lots of talk of hate out there and there are certainly a share of haters and racists on the right but in sheer volume, the hate from the left has become overwhelming.

I hate hate. I hate racism and sexism and homophobia. Why can't people work for positive change without all the hate and judgment of others who don't think and act just like them?
So you kinda sorts have a point but there are some dishonest claims and exaggerations.

I do not defend hate, but you are being dishonest if you equate wearing a MAGA hat with wearing a Hillary shirt. They are not just both equivalent statements of support of a politician (especially in the context of being in Berkeley). The MAGA hat is a symbol and is statement, there is built in aggression and hate into that article of clothing. It extends beyond Trump to tacit support of racism and hatred of Liberals. Wearing that in Berkeley is not just an innocent gesture, it is trolling and inviting anger by others. You can't just pretend that it is a neutral gesture, the hate you disavow begins with putting that hat on.



The MAGA hat is a symbol because the side that lost the election made it a symbol. No matter what people in California think half of the country thinks differently. But somehow they're not allowed to hold different opinions.
TheSouseFamily
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NVBear78 said:

TheSouseFamily said:

Sure can't beat the irony of the same people making assumptions about this video without any context while sinultaneously lambasting anyone who made assumptions about the Covington video without much context.



Yeah, it was really bad seeing that kid punch the guy with the drum in the face on video. Wait, that never happened.

There is much more video you can see of this event on twitter and other places. Seems to be a assault plus a threat to shoot the guy no matter what you look at... but in CA tabling for conservatives is apparently asking for this.


Missed the point. It wasn't about the act itself; it's aboot being quick to judge without context or evidence. And the fringes of both sides can be guilty of this. You can fight your left/right battle if you'd like but I'd rather fight the pragmatic, mainstream centrist versus the hyper emotional fringes battle.
NVBear78
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TheSouseFamily said:

NVBear78 said:

TheSouseFamily said:

Sure can't beat the irony of the same people making assumptions about this video without any context while sinultaneously lambasting anyone who made assumptions about the Covington video without much context.



Yeah, it was really bad seeing that kid punch the guy with the drum in the face on video. Wait, that never happened.

There is much more video you can see of this event on twitter and other places. Seems to be a assault plus a threat to shoot the guy no matter what you look at... but in CA tabling for conservatives is apparently asking for this.


Missed the point. It wasn't about the act itself; it's aboot being quick to judge without context or evidence. And the fringes of both sides can be guilty of this. You can fight your left/right battle if you'd like but I'd rather fight the pragmatic, mainstream centrist versus the hyper emotional fringes battle.



Agree about not being too quick to judge which is a reason I searched out more info. Out of curiosity how did you respond when the Smollett incident first occurred?
TheSouseFamily
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Honestly. I'd never even heard of the guy so I didn't know much about it. But I'd say this: when people from either end of the spectrum have a create a fictional reality to make a political point through a purely partisan lens instead of using logic, reason, facts, rational argument, etc, I think it's a major problem and it seems to be getting worse and worse.
wifeisafurd
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bearlyamazing said:

Nothing to see here. Move along.



Yeah, I know, I know. The fact that Charlie Kirk tweeted it invalidates to truth behind it, right?
Taking for the moment that any of this is not negated by the entire tape, what your telling me is one jerk who throws a sucker punch negates the free speech movement and debate of ideas on campus?
calumnus
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sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.


There was a small Jewish group in Germany (the Association of German National Jews) that supported Hitler and his effort to "Make Germany Great Again" rationalizing: "It is just rhetoric, meant to energize his base":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
bearlyamazing
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calumnus said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.


There was a small Jewish group in Germany (the Association of German National Jews" that supported Hitler rationalizing: "It is just rhetoric, meant to energize his base":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

The number of black Trump supporters dwarfs those clowns numbers.

Another slight difference. Trump isn't killing 10 million black americans and arguing for their extinction.

You bring up Hitler in a political argument and you're pretty much doomed to ending all rational discussion.
sycasey
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bearlyamazing said:

The number of black Trump supporters dwarfs those clowns numbers.
You've made claims about the "growing" black support for Trump. Where are you getting your numbers? What do you think the % support is?
bearlyamazing
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It varies wildly, depending on the poll. Rasmussen's is too high to not be biased but all of the polls I've seen are higher than they were leading up to the election, where even back then, Trump got more black votes than Romney.
Another Bear
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bearlyamazing said:

calumnus said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.


There was a small Jewish group in Germany (the Association of German National Jews" that supported Hitler rationalizing: "It is just rhetoric, meant to energize his base":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

The number of black Trump supporters dwarfs those clowns numbers.

Another slight difference. Trump isn't killing 10 million black americans and arguing for their extinction.

You bring up Hitler in a political argument and you're pretty much doomed to ending all rational discussion.
...and yet Trump literally has Nazis working for him. Both Miller and Bannon have pulled directly from the Nazi playbook. Separating kids from their parents at the border was needless, inhumane and Nazi stuff.

FYI: if you look at the stuff Bannon has written and produced, well let's just say Nazi nihilism is alive and well today with his kind. The asshat Nazi wants to start WWIII.

Yeah...I know, that will never happen...because you don't think so and it's just too crazy...you know cuz you say so.

Right then...slaughtering 6 million humans in cold blood wasn't suppose to happen under Hitler, IMPOSSIBLE.
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okaydo
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Richmondbear2 said:

Asians are not a minority?

According to bearlyamazing, Asians are a majority of this country.
calumnus
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bearlyamazing said:

It varies wildly, depending on the poll. Rasmussen's is too high to not be biased but all of the polls I've seen are higher than they were leading up to the election, where even back then, Trump got more black votes than Romney.


My now ex-boss, a senior executive in a multinational company, was/is a big Trump supporter (and is member of Trump National) and when he was out visiting our operations during the election he literally said to me "The Blacks should be for Trump because the Mexicans are taking the jobs Blacks should have."
calumnus
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bearlyamazing said:

It varies wildly, depending on the poll. Rasmussen's is too high to not be biased but all of the polls I've seen are higher than they were leading up to the election, where even back then, Trump got more black votes than Romney.


Trump got 8% of the African American vote, Romney got 6%, I'm not sure that constitutes "a lot." Romney ran against the first African American nominee from a major party. Trump also benefited from a right-wing and Russian smear campaign against Hillary using fake posters and websites representing themselves as African American.
bearlyamazing
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Another Bear said:

bearlyamazing said:

calumnus said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.


There was a small Jewish group in Germany (the Association of German National Jews" that supported Hitler rationalizing: "It is just rhetoric, meant to energize his base":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

The number of black Trump supporters dwarfs those clowns numbers.

Another slight difference. Trump isn't killing 10 million black americans and arguing for their extinction.

You bring up Hitler in a political argument and you're pretty much doomed to ending all rational discussion.
...and yet Trump literally has Nazis working for him. Both Miller and Bannon have pulled directly from the Nazi playbook. Separating kids from their parents at the border was needless, inhumane and Nazi stuff.

FYI: if you look at the stuff Bannon has written and produced, well let's just say Nazi nihilism is alive and well today with his kind. The asshat Nazi wants to start WWIII.

Yeah...I know, that will never happen...because you don't think so and it's just too crazy...you know cuz you say so.

Right then...slaughtering 6 million humans in cold blood wasn't suppose to happen under Hitler, IMPOSSIBLE.

No, he doesn't "literally" have nazis working for him. Those two are jackasses but they're not nazis. And no, everyone you don't agree with socially and politically aren't nazis. The left has lots of jackasses, too, and Obama had many jackasses working in his administration or as an appointee.

And I'm glad to get you on record that you believe Trump's going to start exterminating millions of his countrymen. We'll see how that goes, cause ya know, it's not "IMPOSSIBLE."
Yogi58
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bearlyamazing said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.
I never said or implied they weren't a small minority but despite what the MSM has tried to sell our country, their numbers have grown quite a bit since the 2016 election.

Honestly, if one thinks it's hard to admit being a Trump or republican party supporter in a place like Berkeley, it's got to be far harder to admit the same if you're black. And hispanic support for Trump is WAY higher than the media tries to portray it to be.
http://polling.reuters.com/#!response/CP3_2/type/smallest/filters/SC_RACE:2/dates/20180219-20190219/collapsed/true

85.7% of black voters disapprove of Trump. I don't know what percentage would be sufficiently high enough to get you to admit that people of color don't like Trump, but that's plenty high enough for me.
OdontoBear66
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sycasey said:

TheSouseFamily said:

Sure can't beat the irony of the same people making assumptions about this video without any context while sinultaneously lambasting anyone who made assumptions about the Covington video without much context.
I agree, shouldn't jump to conclusions in either case.
After reading both threads entirely, these two quotes provide the most sanity. The rational, assumptions and emotions on both sides are so strong that comments and consensus seem fruitless. Shades of grey are lost to black and white (almost literally).
pingpong2
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calumnus said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.


There was a small Jewish group in Germany (the Association of German National Jews) that supported Hitler and his effort to "Make Germany Great Again" rationalizing: "It is just rhetoric, meant to energize his base":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

Godwin's law alert.
okaydo
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Yogi Bear said:

bearlyamazing said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.
I never said or implied they weren't a small minority but despite what the MSM has tried to sell our country, their numbers have grown quite a bit since the 2016 election.

Honestly, if one thinks it's hard to admit being a Trump or republican party supporter in a place like Berkeley, it's got to be far harder to admit the same if you're black. And hispanic support for Trump is WAY higher than the media tries to portray it to be.
http://polling.reuters.com/#!response/CP3_2/type/smallest/filters/SC_RACE:2/dates/20180219-20190219/collapsed/true

85.7% of black voters disapprove of Trump. I don't know what percentage would be sufficiently high enough to get you to admit that people of color don't like Trump, but that's plenty high enough for me.

He thinks Asians aren't minorities, despite being 6% of the U.S. population. Maybe he doesn't understand percentages?
cal83dls79
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Was presented recently by my east coast conservative brother with this video of this asshat on our campus. He thought this was investigative journalism. Too much to get into here. I informed him that the Berkeley radical trope was overplayed and frankly I was sick of it. //www.redstate.com/alexparker/2019/02/07/isis-flag-american-flag-ami-horowitz
Priest of the Patty Hearst Shrine
sycasey
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wifeisafurd said:

bearlyamazing said:

Nothing to see here. Move along.



Yeah, I know, I know. The fact that Charlie Kirk tweeted it invalidates to truth behind it, right?
Taking for the moment that any of this is not negated by the entire tape, what your telling me is one jerk who throws a sucker punch negates the free speech movement and debate of ideas on campus?
Conservatives: "That cop who shot that black guy in the back is just a bad apple and not evidence of institutional bias."

Also Conservatives: "This one conservative student who got punched clearly speaks to the narrative of the university being hostile to conservatives!"

Which is it, guys? Personal responsibility or not? Systemic prejudice or not?
25To20
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Do they make blue MAGA hats? What would be the reaction to a blue MAGA hat on campus?

For the record, even if I agreed with the political agenda of the MAGA hat wearers, I would NEVER wear a red MAGA hat. I am not generally a proponent of hate, but I make an exception for the color red. I HATE RED! I will never wear a red article of clothing. I will never drive a red car.
golden sloth
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bearlyamazing said:

It varies wildly, depending on the poll. Rasmussen's is too high to not be biased but all of the polls I've seen are higher than they were leading up to the election, where even back then, Trump got more black votes than Romney.
I would be willing to bet my retirement fund that if Trump ran against Romney and only blacks could vote, Romney would win.
Another Bear
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Adios jackass troll.
Peanut Gallery Consultant
rkt88edmo
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I have no idea what the current campus atmosphere is like, but "speech codes" which have led to this culture of anxiety/oppression when it comes speech definitely was a thing in the 90s and it generally seems to be a LOT worse. There are always 'provocateurs' on both sides who will get a lot of attention and press and taint the image of the situation no matter what the reality for the majority of the students is.
blungld
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bearlyamazing said:

No, I'm making zero dishonest or exaggerated claims. Just because you come from a position of bias doesn't mean I'm being dishonest or exaggerating.
I know you are choosing to not see it, but that doesn't make it so. It is a dishonest position to say that the Left have ascribed meaning to the hat that is either inaccurate or not what the wearer intends. That hat is an act of identity as the article above says, and you pretending not to notice doesn't make it not true. That is willful ignorance, hence dishonest.

Let's put that aside though. If I wear a shirt with a middle finger on it. I can claim that I think it's funny or that others are too easily offended or that it is my right to wear it or others don't get it or they are putting meaning on to me...all of those are rationalizations that ignore a truth that I knew when I put on the shirt. I can't pretend that I did not know the reaction the shirt might generate. I can't feign ignorance nor pretend the known reaction is "your" fault.

Furthermore, if most people are offended by my shirt, isn't the civil thing to do to not wear it? Is it really that important to me to make a statement with my shirt over offending other people even if I think they shouldn't be offended? Yes, I have the right to wear it, but I am also a jerk and kind of self-interested if my position is one person's right to wear a shirt is more important than offending a majority of people.

Sometimes decency matters, and pretend principles and willful ignorance are just the mask worn over boorish behavior.
OdontoBear66
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blungld said:

bearlyamazing said:

No, I'm making zero dishonest or exaggerated claims. Just because you come from a position of bias doesn't mean I'm being dishonest or exaggerating.
I know you are choosing to not see it, but that doesn't make it so. It is a dishonest position to say that the Left have ascribed meaning to the hat that is either inaccurate or not what the wearer intends. That hat is an act of identity as the article above says, and you pretending not to notice doesn't make it not true. That is willful ignorance, hence dishonest.

Let's put that aside though. If I wear a shirt with a middle finger on it. I can claim that I think it's funny or that others are too easily offended or that it is my right to wear it or others don't get it or they are putting meaning on to me...all of those are rationalizations that ignore a truth that I knew when I put on the shirt. I can't pretend that I did not know the reaction the shirt might generate. I can't feign ignorance nor pretend the known reaction is "your" fault.

Furthermore, if most people are offended by my shirt, isn't the civil thing to do to not wear it? Is it really that important to me to make a statement with my shirt over offending other people even if I think they shouldn't be offended? Yes, I have the right to wear it, but I am also a jerk and kind of self-interested if my position is one person's right to wear a shirt is more important than offending a majority of people.

Sometimes decency matters, and pretend principles and willful ignorance are just the mask worn over boorish behavior.
I hear what you say and agree more with your second paragraph than the first. The side that disagrees with Trump has tried to make it the moral equivalency of KKK apparel, white hate apparel, etc. Fine that they believe that for themselves, but it does not make it so.

For the record, I would never wear a MAGA hat for the very reasons you imply---all the associations. But I would never want to wear one in the first place. One I am no lover of Trump, two I hate red, and three I do not go looking for confrontation. I have pretty much stopped posting anything political on this board because of the tactics of those who disagree with me. I don't need it. Because I believe different than you does not mean you can define me. I once described myself as a moderate on this board and was chastised repeatedly for things I in no way ascribe to my belief system.

But I did want to chime in briefly to find both the tee shirt and the MAGA to be asking for confrontation. And yes, decency does matter, boorish behavior sucks.
NYCGOBEARS
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"You also had some very fine people on both sides,"
bearlyamazing
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Yogi Bear said:

bearlyamazing said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

Search youtube and see how many people of color support Trump and wear MAGA hats.
If you're being intellectually honest, though, you have to admit that they are in a very small minority within their racial group.
I never said or implied they weren't a small minority but despite what the MSM has tried to sell our country, their numbers have grown quite a bit since the 2016 election.

Honestly, if one thinks it's hard to admit being a Trump or republican party supporter in a place like Berkeley, it's got to be far harder to admit the same if you're black. And hispanic support for Trump is WAY higher than the media tries to portray it to be.
http://polling.reuters.com/#!response/CP3_2/type/smallest/filters/SC_RACE:2/dates/20180219-20190219/collapsed/true

85.7% of black voters disapprove of Trump. I don't know what percentage would be sufficiently high enough to get you to admit that people of color don't like Trump, but that's plenty high enough for me.
According to Reuters. According to Rasmussen, his approval rating with black voters is 36%.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/08/16/trump-approval-rating-african-americans-rasmussen-poll/1013212002/

So in reality, it's probably @20%, which is still a decent amount higher than it was for other republican presidents.

Blexit's a real thing and it's only going to grow as black america continues to wake up to the reality that they're being used by the democratic party and should be free agents.
sycasey
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bearlyamazing said:

Blexit's a real thing and it's only going to grow as black america continues to wake up to the reality that they're being used by the democratic party and should be free agents.
Let's bookmark this and see how the next election goes.
bearlyamazing
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NYCGOBEARS said:

"You also had some very fine people on both sides,"
You know as well as anyone that Trump wasn't falling for the media trap of trying to get him to condemn everyone who was there protesting the removal of the statues by calling them all racists. There were many non-racist people protesting their removal from both political parties. He did condemn the violence perpetrated by the racists.
ducky23
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bearlyamazing said:

Let's put it this way: I challenge anyone here to stroll through campus wearing a Trump/Pence 2020 tee shirt and see the reaction. Or even better, a MAGA hat. See how many jeers and f-bombs you get. Then try it again in an Obama or Hillary shirt and see if you even hear a peep.

I think we all know what would happen in either instance.


If Conservatives truly believe that you cannot walk thru campus with a MAGA hat on without causing a ruckus, then, in theory, the University may have a constitutional right to ban all MAGA hats.

Using the Tinker test (Tinker v. Des Moines), a school can ban certain clothing if there is a "reasonable forecast of substantial disruption" by the wearing of that clothing.

A better example is Dariano v. Morgan Hill, where a school banned the wearing of American flag apparel during a Cinco de Mayo celebration, because such clothing caused a disruption the year before.

What is particularly interesting with Dariano is that no reasonable person would see the wearing of american flag apparel as offensive. and yet, the court still ruled such apparel can be banned since the school's interest to prevent disruption overrides the individual's right to protected speech. The judge defined the determinative inquiry as "not whether the threat of violence was real, but only whether it was 'reasonable for [the school] to proceed as though [it were].

We all know that the University would never ban MAGA hats from campus (just cause of the extreme political backlash). but its interesting to know that, if conservatives really do believe that you cannot wear a MAGA hat on campus without causing disruption, then there is legal precedent to ban MAGA hats.



sycasey
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bearlyamazing said:

NYCGOBEARS said:

"You also had some very fine people on both sides,"
You know as well as anyone that Trump wasn't falling for the media trap of trying to get him to condemn everyone who was there protesting the removal of the statues by calling them all racists. There were many non-racist people protesting their removal from both political parties. He did condemn the violence perpetrated by the racists.
I don't know that he was doing that. I think he specifically chose not to condemn the racism because he knows the racists are part of his voter base.
 
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