71Bear said:

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okaydo said:

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The list suffers from recency bias.

No Roy Riegels. ***?!?

This is like a list of the greatest Cal football players in 2075 omitting Marshawn Lynch.

You whipper snappers don't understand how great he was.

He played back in the days when we wore suits and ties and hats to games. He kept us entertained when that Furd was in the White House, destroying the country.

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But it did list Benny Lom who was a key participant in Riegels' infamous play.....

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Benny and Roy were good friends of my grandfather. I heard some great stories.

Cal had some great players around the turn of the century. The 19th century. Between 1898 and 1902 Cal had a combined record of 31-3-5, out scoring the opposition 690 to 41. The stars of those teams were:

Charles 'Loi' Pringle.

Percy Hall.
Scored 2 TDs in the 1898 and 1899 bid games.

Warren ' Locomotive' Smith. He might have been the 19th century's Chuck Muncie.

Jim Whipple.

Pete 'kangaroo' Kaarsberg. He leaped over pileups.

Bobby Sherman. He returned a punt 105 yards in the 1902 Big Game.

If nothing else, I like these nicknames.

Sherman White (already mentioned), the great Herman Edwards, Ron Rivera, Hardy Nickerson, David Ortega, Scott Fujita, Adimchinobe Echemandu, and Dwayne O'Steen.

are these the best careers or best players? Because if it's the latter, none of the old timers belong on the list

So many ways to look at how you make these teams. A big consideration is how they dominated their peers to establish greatness. The other is with training, knowledge, and nutrition, the best could play in any era.

GBear4Life said:

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are these the best careers or best players? Because if it's the latter, none of the old timers belong on the list

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It depends upon how you judge "best" players.
IMO the old timers were better all around athletes.
In addition the style of play at that time limited their stats so did nutrition and health care. As I said about comparing Jesse Owens and DJ
We should judge them against their contemporaries otherwise we are comparing apples and oranges.

I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

Richmondbear2 said:

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Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

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For the record let me state that I believe there is a tendency to overrate Kapp based on a number of factors: 1) his pro career; 2) the fact he led our last Rose Bowl team (albeit a rather pedestrian group which suffered one of the more lop-sided defeats in that event's history); 3) his unbounded love for and commitment to his alma mater. That said, his passing stats at Cal are relatively meaningless because he played in the split T, a nearly run-only attack which called for passes only under the most dire, difficult to succeed circumstances. He wasn't a classic "thrower", many of his balls looking like wounded ducks as they wobbled downfield but he was a more effective passer than 7/28 would suggest. And, without him, that last RB team likely finishes near the bottom of the conference, not at the top. I'd keep him on the list (but nearer the bottom) for his leadership, running ability and defensive prowess in the 1 platoon era. The reason he opted for Canada after graduation is that NFL interest in him was exclusively as a safety or LB.

59bear said:

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Richmondbear2 said:

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Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

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For the record let me state that I believe there is a tendency to overrate Kapp based on a number of factors: 1) his pro career; 2) the fact he led our last Rose Bowl team (albeit a rather pedestrian group which suffered one of the more lop-sided defeats in that event's history); 3) his unbounded love for and commitment to his alma mater. That said, his passing stats at Cal are relatively meaningless because he played in the split T, a nearly run-only attack which called for passes only under the most dire, difficult to succeed circumstances. He wasn't a classic "thrower", many of his balls looking like wounded ducks as they wobbled downfield but he was a more effective passer than 7/28 would suggest. And, without him, that last RB team likely finishes near the bottom of the conference, not at the top. I'd keep him on the list (but nearer the bottom) for his leadership, running ability and defensive prowess in the 1 platoon era. The reason he opted for Canada after graduation is that NFL in him was exclusively as a safety or LB.

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Right now. I would be happy to have the 1958 version of Kapp quarterbacking our team.

59bear said:

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Richmondbear2 said:

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Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

---

For the record let me state that I believe there is a tendency to overrate Kapp based on a number of factors: 1) his pro career; 2) the fact he led our last Rose Bowl team (albeit a rather pedestrian group which suffered one of the more lop-sided defeats in that event's history); 3) his unbounded love for and commitment to his alma mater. That said, his passing stats at Cal are relatively meaningless because he played in the split T, a nearly run-only attack which called for passes only under the most dire, difficult to succeed circumstances. He wasn't a classic "thrower", many of his balls looking like wounded ducks as they wobbled downfield but he was a more effective passer than 7/28 would suggest. And, without him, that last RB team likely finishes near the bottom of the conference, not at the top. I'd keep him on the list (but nearer the bottom) for his leadership, running ability and defensive prowess in the 1 platoon era. The reason he opted for Canada after graduation is that NFL interest in him was exclusively as a safety or LB.

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Joe Kapp once threw 7 touchdown passes in a single NFL game. Joe Kapp could pass. Even though his passes did not look pretty, Joe used to say that he always delivered the ball to the receiver with the laces up.

And how many QB's have started in the Rose Bowl, Grey Cup and SuperBowl, and won a Conference Championship, a CFL Championship, and an NFL Championship? He lost in the Rose Bowl, and in the Super Bowl, but how many Cal quarterbacks have ever played in either one? He refused the Minnesota Vikings team award for MVP, saying, "There is not one MVP, there are 40 MVPs." And lets not forget that he played on two of Cal's basketball teams which made it to the Elite 8 in the NCAA Basketball Tournaments 1957 and 1958. Cal and Kapp are synonymous. Kapp makes any list of Cal's great football players.

SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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The 1973 Bears' roster was loaded with talent (including Bartkowski, Ferragamo, Muncie, Strickland, Wes Walker, Herman Edwards, Rivera, O'Steen, Seifert) yet they finished 4-7 (2-5 in the PAC-8). Lost to 'Bama (66-0) and uIL. Crushed by ucla, $uSC; lost to uO and wSu. What happened?

StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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Just a quick note regarding Muncie's speed, he was, according to a DB who played on his team at Cal, the fastest guy on the team.

Richmondbear2 said:
Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

To put Kapp leading Cal to theRose Bowl in perspective, It would be as if a BasketBall player, leading the team in points, rebounds, and assists, led last years team to the final 4, then had Cal get clobbered in the final 4.

StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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Thanks for that. I did not dig deep enough on Walker. I did find that he was named a three time All-American in track, and was on outstanding 440yd, 400m, 800m, 1600m, and mile relay teams. I could find no records where he ran individual sprints, but I assume he did, but I don't know how his times would compare. In 1973, his 440 yard relay team won the Conference Championship, and in 1975 his 440 yard relay team finished 2nd in the NCAA and his mile relay team finished 5th. In 1976 his 1600 meter relay team finished 3rd in the NCAA, and in 1977, his 400 meter relay team finished 5th in the NCAA. Was he injured in 1974?

His 400 meter and 800 meter relay teams of 1975 still hold the all-time Cal records, and his 1600 meter relay team from 1976 still holds the all-time Cal record. And yes, Howard Strickland was a speedburner.

Looking at the Cal track records, it looks like Khalfani Muhammad and Ashtyn Davis could be in the conversation, and we can't forget Grover Klemmer, who set the world record for 400 meters in 1941, and lettered at Cal in football, basketball, and track. Jack Yerman won the Gold medal at the 1960 Olympics in the 4x400 meter relay, and also played fullback on the Cal Rose Bowl team of 1958-59 .

SFCityBear said:

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StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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Thanks for that. I did not dig deep enough on Walker. I did find that he was named a three time All-American in track, and was on outstanding 440yd, 400m, 800m, 1600m, and mile relay teams. I could find no records where he ran individual sprints, but I assume he did, but I don't know how his times would compare. In 1973, his 440 yard relay team won the Conference Championship, and in 1975 his 440 yard relay team finished 2nd in the NCAA and his mile relay team finished 5th. In 1976 his 1600 meter relay team finished 3rd in the NCAA, and in 1977, his 400 meter relay team finished 5th in the NCAA. Was he injured in 1974?

His 400 meter and 800 meter relay teams of 1975 still hold the all-time Cal records, and his 1600 meter relay team from 1976 still holds the all-time Cal record. And yes, Howard Strickland was a speedburner.

Looking at the Cal track records, it looks like Khalfani Muhammad and Ashtyn Davis could be in the conversation, and we can't forget Grover Klemmer, who set the world record for 400 meters in 1941, and lettered at Cal in football, basketball, and track. Jack Yerman won the Gold medal at the 1960 Olympics in the 4x400 meter relay, and also played fullback on the Cal Rose Bowl team of 1958-59 .

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Minor nit: Yerman was a halfback on that team. Billy Patton was the fullback on that team.

59bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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Thanks for that. I did not dig deep enough on Walker. I did find that he was named a three time All-American in track, and was on outstanding 440yd, 400m, 800m, 1600m, and mile relay teams. I could find no records where he ran individual sprints, but I assume he did, but I don't know how his times would compare. In 1973, his 440 yard relay team won the Conference Championship, and in 1975 his 440 yard relay team finished 2nd in the NCAA and his mile relay team finished 5th. In 1976 his 1600 meter relay team finished 3rd in the NCAA, and in 1977, his 400 meter relay team finished 5th in the NCAA. Was he injured in 1974?

His 400 meter and 800 meter relay teams of 1975 still hold the all-time Cal records, and his 1600 meter relay team from 1976 still holds the all-time Cal record. And yes, Howard Strickland was a speedburner.

Looking at the Cal track records, it looks like Khalfani Muhammad and Ashtyn Davis could be in the conversation, and we can't forget Grover Klemmer, who set the world record for 400 meters in 1941, and lettered at Cal in football, basketball, and track. Jack Yerman won the Gold medal at the 1960 Olympics in the 4x400 meter relay, and also played fullback on the Cal Rose Bowl team of 1958-59 .

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Minor nit: Yerman was a halfback on that team. Billy Patton was the fullback on that team.

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I'm sure you are right about Yerman. I read an internet bio which said he played fullback at Cal, and it didn't sound right, because he would have been a pretty light fullback, but I was too lazy to dig further. I think I need a vacation to rejuvenate. As I remember, Yerman was a reserve, as the starting backfield was Kapp, Patton, Jack Hart and Grover Garvin, wasn't it?

This is unquestionably the greatest Cal football player in Cal football history.

SFCityBear said:

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59bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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StillABear1 said:

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SFCityBear,

Wesley Walker did run track at Cal, all four years. He was, I believe, the first post WWII athlete at Cal to win 8 letters. I didn't research his times but I do remember he was a standout on both the 440 and Mile relays (pre metric) and Cal finished second in the NCAA championship one year in the 440 and third in the Mile if my memory serves me. Clearly, as you stated, he is among the elite four speedsters in Cal football history. They described the Cal relay team as the burly bears because they had at least three, maybe all four that played football, including Howard Strickland, the great backup TB to Muncie.

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Thanks for that. I did not dig deep enough on Walker. I did find that he was named a three time All-American in track, and was on outstanding 440yd, 400m, 800m, 1600m, and mile relay teams. I could find no records where he ran individual sprints, but I assume he did, but I don't know how his times would compare. In 1973, his 440 yard relay team won the Conference Championship, and in 1975 his 440 yard relay team finished 2nd in the NCAA and his mile relay team finished 5th. In 1976 his 1600 meter relay team finished 3rd in the NCAA, and in 1977, his 400 meter relay team finished 5th in the NCAA. Was he injured in 1974?

His 400 meter and 800 meter relay teams of 1975 still hold the all-time Cal records, and his 1600 meter relay team from 1976 still holds the all-time Cal record. And yes, Howard Strickland was a speedburner.

Looking at the Cal track records, it looks like Khalfani Muhammad and Ashtyn Davis could be in the conversation, and we can't forget Grover Klemmer, who set the world record for 400 meters in 1941, and lettered at Cal in football, basketball, and track. Jack Yerman won the Gold medal at the 1960 Olympics in the 4x400 meter relay, and also played fullback on the Cal Rose Bowl team of 1958-59 .

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Minor nit: Yerman was a halfback on that team. Billy Patton was the fullback on that team.

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I'm sure you are right about Yerman. I read an internet bio which said he played fullback at Cal, and it didn't sound right, because he would have been a pretty light fullback, but I was too lazy to dig further. I think I need a vacation to rejuvenate. As I remember, Yerman was a reserve, as the starting backfield was Kapp, Patton, Jack Hart and Grover Garvin, wasn't it?

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Yerman did not start. Kapp, Hart and Patton did but I'm fuzzy about the 4th member. I'd have guessed Hank Olguin but it may have been Garvin. Or, maybe Walt Arnold or Wayne Crow. We played a lot of RBs in that offense.

The RB starters were Jack Hart, Billy Patton, and Wayne Crow.
Off the bench it was Walt Arnold, Hank Olguin, Grover Garvin, and Steve Bates.
Then Jack Yerman and Tony Perrin.

QB's running the ball were Joe Kapp, Gus Gianulius and Larry Parque.

I believe Hart did the punting.

SFCityBear said:

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I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

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I recall reading that Johnny Olsewski, probably the best true fullback in Cal history ran a 9.7 100 yard dash in the state meet in hs at St Anthony's Long Beach.
What I do know is that at the same meet, Hugh McElheny's 180 yard hurdles record stayed around for a long time.

kelly09 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

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I recall reading that Johnny Olsewski, probably the best true fullback in Cal history ran a 9.7 100 yard dash in the state meet in hs at St Anthony's Long Beach.
What I do know is that at the same meet, Hugh McElheny's 180 yard hurdles record stayed around for a long time.

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Two amazing runners, that's for sure. Among the best I've ever seen. .

kelly09 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

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I recall reading that Johnny Olsewski, probably the best true fullback in Cal history ran a 9.7 100 yard dash in the state meet in hs at St Anthony's Long Beach.
What I do know is that at the same meet, Hugh McElheny's 180 yard hurdles record stayed around for a long time.

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Being old and with nothing better to do, I researched California state track meets (lynbrooksports.preptrack.com) and found that McElhenny was a triple event winner in 1947: 120 HH @14.5; 180 LH @19.3 and LJ @ 22'10.5". If Olszewski was in that meet, he didn't make the top 5 in the 100 (winning time 9.9) nor did I find him in the top 5 in '48 ( 9.7) or '49 (9.9). Johnny O. was younger than McElhenny by a couple of years, graduating in 1949. That isn't to say they never competed in the same state meet or that he never ran 9.7 but it does seem unlikely that both happened together.

59bear said:

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kelly09 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

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I recall reading that Johnny Olsewski, probably the best true fullback in Cal history ran a 9.7 100 yard dash in the state meet in hs at St Anthony's Long Beach.
What I do know is that at the same meet, Hugh McElheny's 180 yard hurdles record stayed around for a long time.

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Being old and with nothing better to do, I researched California state track meets (lynbrooksports.preptrack.com) and found that McElhenny was a triple event winner in 1947: 120 HH @14.5; 180 LH @19.3 and LJ @ 22'10.5". If Olszewski was in that meet, he didn't make the top 5 in the 100 (winning time 9.9) nor did I find him in the top 5 in '48 ( 9.7) or '49 (9.9). Johnny O. was younger than McElhenny by a couple of years, graduating in 1949. That isn't to say they never competed in the same state meet or that he never ran 9.7 but it does seem unlikely that both happened together.

Johnny O also lettered in basketball and baseball along with running track at St Anthony's of Long Beach. In football, he averaged an amazing 12 yards per carry and scored 27 touchdowns in 1948, leading his team to the CIF Championship, and was named a high school All-American. He and his quarterback Billy Mais and their entire backfield then went to Cal, where Johnny O. made 1st team consensus All American, and Mais became the Cal starting QB.

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SFCityBear said:

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59bear said:

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kelly09 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'd add that modern players have less stamina and less durablity than the old timers. The old timers played more minutes on average at more positions requiring different skills, in more sports than the modern players. The modern football player plays only football, and in football he plays only a few minutes a game, no more than half a game at most, and he is highly specialized. He gets injured more often than the old timer, and often isn't healthy enough to play, largely because he is going all-out all the time, driving his body to do more than it is capable of. Of what use to his team is a player, if he is on the bench in street clothes and a cast? The drive to do the impossible or improbable motivates the modern player to make some poor decisions, like tackling by using his helmet, or deciding to hurdle over a tackler instead of going around him or hitting him, and ending up with a concussion (read Jahvid Best).

---

I recall reading that Johnny Olsewski, probably the best true fullback in Cal history ran a 9.7 100 yard dash in the state meet in hs at St Anthony's Long Beach.
What I do know is that at the same meet, Hugh McElheny's 180 yard hurdles record stayed around for a long time.

---

Being old and with nothing better to do, I researched California state track meets (lynbrooksports.preptrack.com) and found that McElhenny was a triple event winner in 1947: 120 HH @14.5; 180 LH @19.3 and LJ @ 22'10.5". If Olszewski was in that meet, he didn't make the top 5 in the 100 (winning time 9.9) nor did I find him in the top 5 in '48 ( 9.7) or '49 (9.9). Johnny O. was younger than McElhenny by a couple of years, graduating in 1949. That isn't to say they never competed in the same state meet or that he never ran 9.7 but it does seem unlikely that both happened together.

Johnny O also lettered in basketball and baseball along with running track at St Anthony's of Long Beach. In football, he averaged an amazing 12 yards per carry and scored 27 touchdowns in 1948, leading his team to the CIF Championship, and was named a high school All-American. He and his quarterback Billy Mais and their entire backfield then went to Cal, where Johnny O. made 1st team consensus All American, and Mais became the Cal starting QB.

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I believe he also was a lifeguard at the beach and, IIRC, had a bit part in an Esther Williams movie in which he portrayed a statue come to life to swim with Williams. Truly a man of many talents!