I was a member of Kappa Alpha at Cal. I joined because I liked the guys. Throughout the pledging I started to hear references to southern traditions and Lee. I was so confused by it, and didn't understand. It played no role in our values or conversations, it was always relegated to some weird stuff about how the fraternity was formed or things that maybe the chapters in the South took more seriously, or sort of a pretend identity like a costume one might take on for Halloween. These dogmatic historical elements were tuned out and held no connection to reality--perhaps like a lot of religious iconography that disappears into the background, but is there and disturbing if you actually inspect the details and consider the embedded message.

At 18 the social conversation and my personal awareness wasn't at a place where I stopped and thought, "Hey, we might be celebrating or in some way endorsing racism." I wish I had been that aware and that I had been a part of distancing the fraternity from those symbols and past. I look back at those connections with embarrassment now, but they didn't mean anything to me then, I just liked this group of guys who were my friends and who were never racist in their words or actions around me.

Young adults are blithe, ignorant, and programmed just to fit in and be liked. That's why it is really important to be hyper diligent about culture, because those 18 year olds just take it in without thought because it holds no meaning or is not the point. So if the culture that surrounds them holds values and symbols of acceptance, justice, honesty those then are the standards and behaviors they will largely adopt. If we instead make racism common or tacitly embraced and their symbols and words permitted...it's not good and it is what we are seeing happen today as in this account. While those boys may or may not be racist, the message they are receiving in culture is that what they did was acceptable and perhaps funny with no consideration of deeper meaning and cruelty and what it leads to.

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"

Isaac Asimov

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

---

As I started to read your post, I was thinking you were going to criticize my "two bubbles" post by saying that we have racism here, even in our supposedly "progressive" bubble. And that would have been a good point.

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

---

Yeah, but one of the two bubbles condemns racism while the other promotes it, tacitly or actively. That's a pretty big deal to many of us, a bigger deal than the cost of living or high tax rates or the other things you cite. On that basis alone, most of us are comfortable with saying that one is more regressive than the other.

Not true at all. Today's racist youth are reveling in our white supremacist past, and working hard to create a white supremacist future.

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

---

First of all, I assumed his intent by talking about "bubbles" is that we both live in worlds where we are not exposed to those opinions of the other. I wouldn't say all bubbles are bad. Bubbles just exist. Americans don't know what it is like to live an Bangladesh. They never will. Understanding your bubbles is good.

I absolutely support freedom of expression. I absolutely think that people should be able to have their political views without fear of reprisal. I think people of all political persuasions can go too far in drawing lines against other political views. I think some in the Bay Area certainly do that. Would love to have that conversation. Unfortunately, you just posted a bunch of bullshyte.

Antifa is not endorsed implicitly or otherwise by any large number of the liberal population. Try getting off conservative media outlets once in a while. Are there liberal nutjobs who like them? Yes. Are their conservative nutjobs who like White Supremacists? yes. There are good people on both sides right? I would say that liberals certainly question the right's concerns about Antifa when the right doesn't seem to be nearly as concerned with White Supremacy and racist violence on their side, but very few are supporting Antifa in any way.

As for "most intolerant places you've encountered" I'd just say to you that maybe your judgment of intolerance is impacted by how close you feel to the traits that are "not tolerated". How many people like you have been murdered here for who you compared to members of the LGBTQ community? How many people like you have been murdered because of their race. Or because they talked a certain way to a member of another ethnicity. How many people like you have been murdered for their religious views or their political view? How many of your churches have been shot up? How many times have you been pulled over by a cop for no reason? How many times have you been not waited on or had a member of another race taken first when you were next in line. Or hassled for ID. Or followed by store security. Please. Let's add up the score on intolerance. I'm sorry you don't get to use a plastic bag. Some of your complaints are justified. Comparing your the pittance of intolerance you may have to face to intolerance of others elsewhere is utterly ridiculous. Straight up, I would much rather be a straight, staunchly conservative, white male in the Bay Area than a liberal black man in the Bay Area when it comes to dealing with crap on a regular basis. (I'd rather be a liberal, white male, truth be told). Your crying about the horrible intolerance you suffer in the Bay Area is so beyond the pale ridiculous compared to what other people face. To be clear, you say their is intolerance here and we should get our house in order, I'm with you. You say this is one of the most intolerant places you have encountered, you need to be called on it.

Let's be clear on a couple of things, shooting up heroin is illegal and people get cited for it even if in some locations the police don't try very hard. Taking a dump in the street is not legal. No idea on dining naked, but I've never encountered the practice. You are allowed to use a plastic straw if you bring your own. Stores can't give you one. And there are perfectly reasonable alternatives. As for either plastic straws or plastic bags, that is no different than not allowing a hog rendering plant in the city. The people of these communities have decided that plastic straws and bags are harmful to the environment and they have banned them while giving people perfectly reasonable alternatives. You don't think it's important. Hard cheese. That is not a tolerance issue any more than I am intolerant of my neighbor playing loud music at 2 in the morning.

I might be sympathetic to people being refused jobs for political views, but 99% of the time I see conservatives make this claim, the "political view" leading to the refused or lost job was something on the order of LGBTQ or minorities or women they would work with being inferior or getting jobs they aren't qualified for. When I see a lot of people losing jobs over issues that don't involve respecting the people they work with, I'll be a lot more concerned.

And I'll tell you what, the next time a 14 year old white kid is murdered for talking to a black woman in the Bay Area and a memorial is put up for the kid and people shoot it up and a bunch of black Cal kids go to the memorial and pose laughing with guns in front of it, make your point. Fact is there are several steps in that process that you can't even envision happening here.

But really, I'm truly sorry you have to use a paper straw. Bummer. #strawlivesmatter.

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

---

For me to venture an opinion I have to make some assumptions about your life and how you think based on the numerous posts you've made on the boards. I apologize for that assumption, but I think there are some things for you to consider if my observations are even close to true.

Through your lens, you see progressive politics and liberals as fascists and participating in group think and vilifying you and conservatives like you. That is a lens. Your disagreement with opposing policy and beliefs have pushed you to a place where you see the "other side" as doing the things you listed, but some of that is projection. Sitting outside of you and reading your posts I see a lot of cognitive dissonance; misusing or selective re-defining of words; and ongoing false equivalencies. I am not saying that to be pejorative, I am stating it for you to consider.

I would guess that your reaction will be to turn around and accuse me of the same, or dig into your oppositional positions and feel attacked, seeing this as proof of Liberal judgement, hypocrisy, and intolerance. To be outraged at the accusation.

I believe you have adopted a lens that keeps re-asserting defenses and is a feedback loop of self-belief. It's easy to see from the outside and probably really annoying and patronizing for it to be pointed out to you. But there are objective truths. There are meanings to words. There are truths. There are ethics and values that can be judged against one another and are not simply matters of opinion. There is also an overall human evolution and a way in which we line up the best and worst traits of mankind and civilization. There is progression and regression. And we can identify these things and make real comparisons outside of our own subjective view or tribal think. Many of the positions you hold fail by these comparisons, and are at the very least not equal to the things you compare them against.

There is nothing magic, perfect, righteous or even monolithic about the "Left." Liberal groups, the Democrats, and progressive policy/words/actions are completely open to criticism and debate. They are often stupid and wrong--but they are not evil. They are not propagandized attacks and mischaracterizations like "intolerance to peaceful dissent." You can't play coy with language and intent and try and attach that phrase to persons standing up to abuse, threats, and bigotry. When an oppressed or offended or controlled people stand up to power, they are not being intolerant or uppity or disrespectful. The scenario does NOT become "good people on both sides" just because there are two sides, or a simple exercise of free speech when one side is advocating unequal results or rights over another group (or violence). For example, hippies protesting on Berkeley in the 60s for peace, who threw a rock at riot police because they are being beaten and their civil rights are being trampled for demonstrating against the state--do not suddenly become a violent mob, or just as bad. I do not advocate throwing rocks, but these things are not equal, and the two sides of the conflict have very different intentions and working morality (one of which is predicated on avoiding and stopping conflict and was only pushed to violence in response to forces that use violence systematically).

My main point is this though. Other than irking you that people you might not like, or who have an appearance you don't like, or represent a lifestyle that you don't approve of, or say words that you don't like, or who it would bug you if they felt they had "won" the culture war, that anger aside, isn't what these people fighting for generally good?

You might quibble on policy or execution or practicality or best approach, but ultimately what they want is a world where people are accepted; where people have equal power within the system; where government serves the interest of people over corporations and a small elite class; on the whole it is a noble outlook.

And yet, somehow you have warped that into THEY as the intolerant group that is out destroy America and who are arrogant and just as bad as racists. So the end game of this "progressive bubble" is an ATTEMPT to be fair to all people. Meanwhile the end game of the conservatives you defend and champion is law by corporations driven almost entirely by profit, with income inequality, and the securing of white normative Christian behavior. You have a narrow prescription for who wins in our world and a protection of a very specific type of person and ideology while vilifying a broad swath of diverse people with various ideologies. And yet you have the audacity to think it is the other side that more closely resembles fascism? The modern conservative is an exercise in control and orthodoxy and intolerance--this is a far more fascist, totalitarian world view.

Do you ever really stop to consider that it is you who is that person in a film you watch who refuses to open their eyes and see what is really going on, who is duped by the powers that be, is regurgitating lies, and who has sided with the bad guys? You are the person refusing to say the emperor has no clothes? If this were Star Wars you would have no problem seeing from outside your lens and being able to identify the progressives and conservatives as either Empire or Rebellion. Do you REALLY think the progressives are the Empire in this analogy? I know that no one thinks they are on the wrong side, but in crude terms one of the sides is deluded--and it's not the people avoiding FOX and Breitbart and who are clearly able to see those sources as state propaganda serving power and lizard brain regressive emotions.

Sit in private where there is no ego involved. Make an honest list of the logical endgame of the two bubbles you said were the same (even suggesting the Bay Area progressives are worst). Don't use any buzz words or programmed responses, actually make a list of the world that the two are aiming to create. There is no way you can conclude that they are the same, and it is not arrogant to notice; it's just being invested in the outcome and advocating.

And, for arguments sake, if the two possible worlds are equally likely to come to pass, shouldn't you err on the side of trying to protect and ensure for the one that is more just and fair, even while shaping it through debate, rather than denouncing it all together in straw man screeds and instead hoisting up a much worse outcome and a set of beliefs that the human endeavor has been attempting to evolve from? That is regression.

Posts getting long in here.

I'll just add, I took an Ethnic Studies class at Cal. It was interesting, particularly being one of the few white kids in the class. Our professor made the comment one day, that his experience was that Northern California had the best race relations of anywhere he has lived. That is my experience as well. That is something to be proud of.

blungld said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

---

This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

---

For me to venture an opinion I have to make some assumptions about your life and how you think based on the numerous posts you've made on the boards. I apologize for that assumption, but I think there are some things for you to consider if my observations are even close to true.

Through your lens, you see progressive politics and liberals as fascists and participating in group think and vilifying you and conservatives like you. That is a lens. Your disagreement with opposing policy and beliefs have pushed you to a place where you see the "other side" as doing the things you listed, but some of that is projection. Sitting outside of you and reading your posts I see a lot of cognitive dissonance; misusing or selective re-defining of words; and ongoing false equivalencies. I am not saying that to be pejorative, I am stating it for you to consider.

I would guess that your reaction will be to turn around and accuse me of the same, or dig into your oppositional positions and feel attacked, seeing this as proof of Liberal judgement, hypocrisy, and intolerance. To be outraged at the accusation.

I believe you have adopted a lens that keeps re-asserting defenses and is a feedback loop of self-belief. It's easy to see from the outside and probably really annoying and patronizing for it to be pointed out to you. But there are objective truths. There are meanings to words. There are truths. There are ethics and values that can be judged against one another and are not simply matters of opinion. There is also an overall human evolution and a way in which we line up the best and worst traits of mankind and civilization. There is progression and regression. And we can identify these things and make real comparisons outside of our own subjective view or tribal think. Many of the positions you hold fail by these comparisons, and are at the very least not equal to the things you compare them against.

There is nothing magic, perfect, righteous or even monolithic about the "Left." Liberal groups, the Democrats, and progressive policy/words/actions are completely open to criticism and debate. They are often stupid and wrong--but they are not evil. They are not propagandized attacks and mischaracterizations like "intolerance to peaceful dissent." You can't play coy with language and intent and try and attach that phrase to persons standing up to abuse, threats, and bigotry. When an oppressed or offended or controlled people stand up to power, they are not being intolerant or uppity or disrespectful. The scenario does NOT become "good people on both sides" just because there are two sides, or a simple exercise of free speech when one side is advocating unequal results or rights over another group (or violence). For example, hippies protesting on Berkeley in the 60s for peace, who threw a rock at riot police because they are being beaten and their civil rights are being trampled for demonstrating against the state--do not suddenly become a violent mob, or just as bad. I do not advocate throwing rocks, but these things are not equal, and the two sides of the conflict have very different intentions and working morality (one of which is predicated on avoiding and stopping conflict and was only pushed to violence in response to forces that use violence systematically).

My main point is this though. Other than irking you that people you might not like, or who have an appearance you don't like, or represent a lifestyle that you don't approve of, or say words that you don't like, or who it would bug you if they felt they had "won" the culture war, that anger aside, isn't what these people fighting for generally good?

You might quibble on policy or execution or practicality or best approach, but ultimately what they want is a world where people are accepted; where people have equal power within the system; where government serves the interest of people over corporations and a small elite class; on the whole it is a noble outlook.

And yet, somehow you have warped that into THEY as the intolerant group that is out destroy America and who are arrogant and just as bad as racists. So the end game of this "progressive bubble" is an ATTEMPT to be fair to all people. Meanwhile the end game of the conservatives you defend and champion is law by corporations driven almost entirely by profit, with income inequality, and the securing of white normative Christian behavior. You have a narrow prescription for who wins in our world and a protection of a very specific type of person and ideology while vilifying a broad swath of diverse people with various ideologies. And yet you have the audacity to think it is the other side that more closely resembles fascism? The modern conservative is an exercise in control and orthodoxy and intolerance--this is a far more fascist, totalitarian world view.

Do you ever really stop to consider that it is you who is that person in a film you watch who refuses to open their eyes and see what is really going on, who is duped by the powers that be, is regurgitating lies, and who has sided with the bad guys? You are the person refusing to say the emperor has no clothes? If this were Star Wars you would have no problem seeing from outside your lens and being able to identify the progressives and conservatives as either Empire or Rebellion. Do you REALLY think the progressives are the Empire in this analogy? I know that no one thinks they are on the wrong side, but in crude terms one of the sides is deluded--and it's not the people avoiding FOX and Breitbart and who are clearly able to see those sources as state propaganda serving power and lizard brain regressive emotions.

Sit in private where there is no ego involved. Make an honest list of the logical endgame of the two bubbles you said were the same (even suggesting the Bay Area progressives are worst). Don't use any buzz words or programmed responses, actually make a list of the world that the two are aiming to create. There is no way you can conclude that they are the same, and it is not arrogant to notice; it's just being invested in the outcome and advocating.

And, for arguments sake, if the two possible worlds are equally likely to come to pass, shouldn't you err on the side of trying to protect and ensure for the one that is more just and fair, even while shaping it through debate, rather than denouncing it all together in straw man screeds and instead hoisting up a much worse outcome and a set of beliefs that the human endeavor has been attempting to evolve from? That is regression.

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All I have to say is this. Would a black person in Mississippi complaining about intolerance list anything as inconsequential as plastic bags and straws? When that is the outrage you get to have you should be very thankful about your life.

I have felt that way in the past as well. However, I now feel that the more Cal fans that attend the Ol Miss game, the better. Obviously, every fan base has their share of idiots in the stands. However, I think it would be a wonderful thing to have Cal fans interacting with one another, the opposing fan base, and locals at the Ol Miss game - and demonstrating acceptance/respect and dignity for all. THIS would speak volumes about our school and its culture (and perhaps the Bay Area, and California, in general.)

I attended a football game at Clemson a couple of years ago. This experience was fairly eye-opening for me.

OaktownBear said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Big C said:

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Sickening. Here in the Bay Area, we live in a bubble. Down there, they live in their own bubble. However, all bubbles are not created equal: Ours is progressive; theirs is regressive.

While some things are more important than college football, I can't help wondering if, while we're down there this fall, maybe we could spread the word that there's a wonderful university in Northern California, where the attitude is better (and so is the weather).

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This is an unfortunate combination of arrogance, condescension, naivete, and delusion. I am not defending the photo or action. However, to assume that the Bay Area (really California) and its "progressive values" is somehow unequivocally superior to other "bubbles" is simply wrong. All bubbles are bad, because they promote intolerance, division, and a lack of empathy - your post is a great example.

The Bay Area, in particular, is one of the most intolerant and least liberal (in a traditional sense) places I've encountered. And it has gotten "progressively" worse in the last 3 decades.

The group think and intolerance of peaceful dissent or alternate viewpoints is off the charts. Dissenting views that are very much in the nationwide mainstream are de-platformed, boycotted, and attacked on an an hominem basis - rarely the on the merits. Antifa and its violent intimidation tactics have been tolerated (and implicitly endorsed) for years. People with conservative views are literally denied employment, not to mention social stature.

The totalitarian (really fascist) urges of the so called CA progressives is off the charts. The bay area outlaws straws, plastic bags, e-sigs, etc. On the streets of SFO, a person can use a heroin needle (paid for and distributed by the government), dine naked, or take a dump in the street, but that same person can't use a plastic straw or puff an e-cig.

The Bay Area is one of the least affordable places to live in the world - in no small part because of progressive anti-development attitudes. Poverty in California averages 13+%, with much higher rates in urban/progressive areas like SFO and LA. https://www.ppic.org/publication/poverty-in-california/ When factoring in housing costs, California has the highest poverty rates in the Country per the census bureau. https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/14/17856870/california-poverty-rate-housing-cost-of-living

Despite its high tax rates, California has the highest debt of any state in real dollar terms and on a per capita basis, with massive unfunded liabilities (pensions) on top of that. https://smartasset.com/credit-cards/states-with-the-most-debt

Our bubble/state is far from perfect. Keep that in mind when your judging other people's.

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First of all, I assumed his intent by talking about "bubbles" is that we both live in worlds where we are not exposed to those opinions of the other. I wouldn't say all bubbles are bad. Bubbles just exist. Americans don't know what it is like to live an Bangladesh. They never will. Understanding your bubbles is good.

I absolutely support freedom of expression. I absolutely think that people should be able to have their political views without fear of reprisal. I think people of all political persuasions can go too far in drawing lines against other political views. I think some in the Bay Area certainly do that. Would love to have that conversation. Unfortunately, you just posted a bunch of bullshyte.

Antifa is not endorsed implicitly or otherwise by any large number of the liberal population. Try getting off conservative media outlets once in a while. Are there liberal nutjobs who like them? Yes. Are their conservative nutjobs who like White Supremacists? yes. There are good people on both sides right? I would say that liberals certainly question the right's concerns about Antifa when the right doesn't seem to be nearly as concerned with White Supremacy and racist violence on their side, but very few are supporting Antifa in any way.

As for "most intolerant places you've encountered" I'd just say to you that maybe your judgment of intolerance is impacted by how close you feel to the traits that are "not tolerated". How many people like you have been murdered here for who you compared to members of the LGBTQ community? How many people like you have been murdered because of their race. Or because they talked a certain way to a member of another ethnicity. How many people like you have been murdered for their religious views or their political view? How many of your churches have been shot up? How many times have you been pulled over by a cop for no reason? How many times have you been not waited on or had a member of another race taken first when you were next in line. Or hassled for ID. Or followed by store security. Please. Let's add up the score on intolerance. I'm sorry you don't get to use a plastic bag. Some of your complaints are justified. Comparing your the pittance of intolerance you may have to face to intolerance of others elsewhere is utterly ridiculous. Straight up, I would much rather be a straight, staunchly conservative, white male in the Bay Area than a liberal black man in the Bay Area when it comes to dealing with crap on a regular basis. (I'd rather be a liberal, white male, truth be told). Your crying about the horrible intolerance you suffer in the Bay Area is so beyond the pale ridiculous compared to what other people face. To be clear, you say their is intolerance here and we should get our house in order, I'm with you. You say this is one of the most intolerant places you have encountered, you need to be called on it.

Let's be clear on a couple of things, shooting up heroin is illegal and people get cited for it even if in some locations the police don't try very hard. Taking a dump in the street is not legal. No idea on dining naked, but I've never encountered the practice. You are allowed to use a plastic straw if you bring your own. Stores can't give you one. And there are perfectly reasonable alternatives. As for either plastic straws or plastic bags, that is no different than not allowing a hog rendering plant in the city. The people of these communities have decided that plastic straws and bags are harmful to the environment and they have banned them while giving people perfectly reasonable alternatives. You don't think it's important. Hard cheese. That is not a tolerance issue any more than I am intolerant of my neighbor playing loud music at 2 in the morning.

I might be sympathetic to people being refused jobs for political views, but 99% of the time I see conservatives make this claim, the "political view" leading to the refused or lost job was something on the order of LGBTQ or minorities or women they would work with being inferior or getting jobs they aren't qualified for. When I see a lot of people losing jobs over issues that don't involve respecting the people they work with, I'll be a lot more concerned.

And I'll tell you what, the next time a 14 year old white kid is murdered for talking to a black woman in the Bay Area and a memorial is put up for the kid and people shoot it up and a bunch of black Cal kids go to the memorial and pose laughing with guns in front of it, make your point. Fact is there are several steps in that process that you can't even envision happening here.

But really, I'm truly sorry you have to use a paper straw. Bummer. #strawlivesmatter.

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Antifa (and other anarchist) groups have been tolerated (and therefore implicitly endorsed) in Berkeley since at least the 1980s. Until they recently were sued, UC and the Berkeley police stood by and did nothing while these types of groups rioted, destroyed property, and most importantly de-platformed people. Those same people would not have stood by had conservatives been acting in that fashion and attacking liberals. Other people on the left have similarly endorsed violence (punch them in the face) and other tactics involving physical intimidation - Maxine Waters, etc. And for the record, no less than Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon on CNN defended/rationalized (partly) Antifa and its tactics. Are Antifa defenders widespread - no, I never said that. But they do exist disproportionately in the Bay area and other left bubbles.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/14/cnn_chris_cuomo_defends_antifa_attacks_on_police_journalists_not_equal_to_fighting_bigots.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/28/don_lemon_defends_antifa_no_organization_is_perfect.html

Your ass-umptions about my judgment of intolerance are misplaced. I'm Jewish - plenty of "people like me" (your words) have in fact been murdered. My temples have been shot up. I'm sensitive to intolerance and don't deny the existence of racism/etc. But I don't pretend that my California bubble is more perfect than others. And to that point, the left "bubbles" (aka college campuses, Bay Area and New York) have a lot more problems with antisemitism than most other places (including the South). The common denominator among the bubbles is intolerance (which was my original point).

Your attempt to justify the straw/plastic laws, refusal to enforce heroin laws and basic hygiene in SFO - because of course none of those things are as bad as racism or violence - intentionally obscures the point (you have constructed a strawman with the straw issue). I never claimed those things were equal to racism. What I did claim is that the mindset in the Bay Area bubble is fundamentally intolerant and disrespectful of individual rights with incredible instincts to true fascists tactics (i.e., using the power of law and violence to stamp out dissent).

Your lack of sympathy for conservatives seeking/keeping jobs in the bay area is emblematic of the problem. You see no problem with enforcing conformity of thought through economic coercion. Brendan Eich literally lost his job because he donated in support of Prop 8 and held a personal view that was at the time identical to President Obama's (and the vast majority of other Americans at the time). He didn't do anything in the work place to impose his view or discriminate - yet he couldn't work in the bay area. And you alluded to the problems at google, where the company promotes and provides internal bulletin boards (with truly bat crap crazy stuff on them) and then purges conservatives who hold opinions that offend the far left.

You posted: " When I see a lot of people losing jobs over issues that don't involve respecting the people they work with, I'll be a lot more concerned." The problem with that approach is that progressives take the position that they are "disrespected" or "harmed" by the mere existence/expression of opinions they disagree with (they even consider that a form of "violence"). Is that a common viewpoint? Probably not in many parts of the country (and not among old time liberals). But it is a prevalent view in the Bay Area bubble and on college campuses - and VERY prevalent at tech places like Google, FB, twitter, etc. Basically you're saying you don't object to the de-facto existence of thought police as long as the police are on your side.

What is the effect of all this? Many non-liberals are afraid to participate in Bay Area politics OUTSIDE of work or even make political donations. Of course, that is what the left wants - complete de-platforming and the elimination of dissent.

I'm sorry, but there is such a huge disconnect with so many progressives here. I believe you're all genuine in your belief that there's not a high level of tyranny, political and social shaming and group think among the progressive movement that's a result primarily of where you get your news, what social media accounts you follow and who you surround yourselves with. Deplatforming, shadow banning, boycotts and the like are just the tip of the iceberg. And it's far from just whack jobs like Alex Jones or flat-out racist scumbags. It's mainstream companies and conservatives.

The fact is, conservatives like me who aren't ideologues and who respect people of all political backgrounds have to remain completely politically neutral in everything we say in real life and post on social media or we will instantly lose friends, facebook friends and followers because of something as innocuous as voting republican. It's gotten that bad. In today's hyper-politicized political world, the very act of being a republican is to be branded instantly as a racist, sexist, homophobe or ignorant. Or all of those rolled into one. Even many people who know me and know how much money I give to feed the homeless or actually personally feed the homeless and work for racial equity would write me off if they knew I was a republican. Not everyone but too many. It's really sad. I basically never talk politics outside of occasional brief forays on the OT board.

Never in my life have I felt that way. Not as a Cal student, not anywhere. But be honest, progressives. How many republican friends do you have right now that you've stuck with since 2016? How many of you have never tried to shame anyone or shunned them for voting a different way than you or having conservative political beliefs? And be honest: Most of you probably believe I'm being deceptive about the way I've represented myself because you can't possibly believe that someone who would vote republican in today's day and age could also be fair-minded and hold the non-political values and actions that I do and it's because of exactly the kind of disconnect I mentioned.

There are so many vile, disgusting things I see in today's progressive movement that never existed in any great measure before but I would never lump every progressive person into that negative stereotype. People are complex and can't be lumped into a monolithic group. And yes, there's some vile, disgusting elements of the conservative movement but not nearly to the extent that most progressives genuinely believe. If it were as bad as progressives believe, I'd be an independent. The dominant majority of conservatives would never try to socially beat down every progressive or company who does business with progressive causes like the dominant majority of progressives do now in reverse. I've not unfriended any liberal friends on social media or in real life, even though they often post things I find repulsive. I've lost some respect for them but realize it's doesn't entirely define who they are.

blungld said:

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For me to venture an opinion I have to make some assumptions about your life and how you think based on the numerous posts you've made on the boards. I apologize for that assumption, but I think there are some things for you to consider if my observations are even close to true.

Through your lens, you see progressive politics and liberals as fascists and participating in group think and vilifying you and conservatives like you. That is a lens. Your disagreement with opposing policy and beliefs have pushed you to a place where you see the "other side" as doing the things you listed, but some of that is projection. Sitting outside of you and reading your posts I see a lot of cognitive dissonance; misusing or selective re-defining of words; and ongoing false equivalencies. I am not saying that to be pejorative, I am stating it for you to consider.

I would guess that your reaction will be to turn around and accuse me of the same, or dig into your oppositional positions and feel attacked, seeing this as proof of Liberal judgement, hypocrisy, and intolerance. To be outraged at the accusation.

I believe you have adopted a lens that keeps re-asserting defenses and is a feedback loop of self-belief. It's easy to see from the outside and probably really annoying and patronizing for it to be pointed out to you. But there are objective truths. There are meanings to words. There are truths. There are ethics and values that can be judged against one another and are not simply matters of opinion. There is also an overall human evolution and a way in which we line up the best and worst traits of mankind and civilization. There is progression and regression. And we can identify these things and make real comparisons outside of our own subjective view or tribal think. Many of the positions you hold fail by these comparisons, and are at the very least not equal to the things you compare them against.

There is nothing magic, perfect, righteous or even monolithic about the "Left." Liberal groups, the Democrats, and progressive policy/words/actions are completely open to criticism and debate. They are often stupid and wrong--but they are not evil. They are not propagandized attacks and mischaracterizations like "intolerance to peaceful dissent." You can't play coy with language and intent and try and attach that phrase to persons standing up to abuse, threats, and bigotry. When an oppressed or offended or controlled people stand up to power, they are not being intolerant or uppity or disrespectful. The scenario does NOT become "good people on both sides" just because there are two sides, or a simple exercise of free speech when one side is advocating unequal results or rights over another group (or violence). For example, hippies protesting on Berkeley in the 60s for peace, who threw a rock at riot police because they are being beaten and their civil rights are being trampled for demonstrating against the state--do not suddenly become a violent mob, or just as bad. I do not advocate throwing rocks, but these things are not equal, and the two sides of the conflict have very different intentions and working morality (one of which is predicated on avoiding and stopping conflict and was only pushed to violence in response to forces that use violence systematically).

My main point is this though. Other than irking you that people you might not like, or who have an appearance you don't like, or represent a lifestyle that you don't approve of, or say words that you don't like, or who it would bug you if they felt they had "won" the culture war, that anger aside, isn't what these people fighting for generally good?

You might quibble on policy or execution or practicality or best approach, but ultimately what they want is a world where people are accepted; where people have equal power within the system; where government serves the interest of people over corporations and a small elite class; on the whole it is a noble outlook.

And yet, somehow you have warped that into THEY as the intolerant group that is out destroy America and who are arrogant and just as bad as racists. So the end game of this "progressive bubble" is an ATTEMPT to be fair to all people. Meanwhile the end game of the conservatives you defend and champion is law by corporations driven almost entirely by profit, with income inequality, and the securing of white normative Christian behavior. You have a narrow prescription for who wins in our world and a protection of a very specific type of person and ideology while vilifying a broad swath of diverse people with various ideologies. And yet you have the audacity to think it is the other side that more closely resembles fascism? The modern conservative is an exercise in control and orthodoxy and intolerance--this is a far more fascist, totalitarian world view.

Do you ever really stop to consider that it is you who is that person in a film you watch who refuses to open their eyes and see what is really going on, who is duped by the powers that be, is regurgitating lies, and who has sided with the bad guys? You are the person refusing to say the emperor has no clothes? If this were Star Wars you would have no problem seeing from outside your lens and being able to identify the progressives and conservatives as either Empire or Rebellion. Do you REALLY think the progressives are the Empire in this analogy? I know that no one thinks they are on the wrong side, but in crude terms one of the sides is deluded--and it's not the people avoiding FOX and Breitbart and who are clearly able to see those sources as state propaganda serving power and lizard brain regressive emotions.

Sit in private where there is no ego involved. Make an honest list of the logical endgame of the two bubbles you said were the same (even suggesting the Bay Area progressives are worst). Don't use any buzz words or programmed responses, actually make a list of the world that the two are aiming to create. There is no way you can conclude that they are the same, and it is not arrogant to notice; it's just being invested in the outcome and advocating.

And, for arguments sake, if the two possible worlds are equally likely to come to pass, shouldn't you err on the side of trying to protect and ensure for the one that is more just and fair, even while shaping it through debate, rather than denouncing it all together in straw man screeds and instead hoisting up a much worse outcome and a set of beliefs that the human endeavor has been attempting to evolve from? That is regression.

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This is a bizarre post where you make a lot of wrong assumptions of my beliefs, not to mention mischaracterize what i said, mixed in with a lot of psychobabble. I made no relative judgment weighing the relative evils of racism vs other things. I also never said all liberals were fascists or that progressives are evil. I never said anyone was out to destroy america. I never said that all conservatives (or the Orange Man) are good.

I did say that bubbles are bad because they are intolerant - you're again making my point.

You also included a lot of loaded terms like "uppity" and mentioning "appearances I don't like" and "lifestyles I don't like. You literally couldn't be more wrong about my beliefs. You're "apology in advance" doesn't cut it. Though this does explain a lot about your thinking - you assume anyone with different views has bad motivations.

You may want to sit in private where there is no ego involved and consider why you feel so confident in making assumptions about someone you've never met and literally know almost nothing about. Your stated view is that the only possible underpinning of conservative or libertarian (or any other non-progressive) views is corporatism, elitism, control and intolerance. But I'm the one who vilifies?

And your claim that "many of the positions hold fail by these comparisons" is perhaps the most arrogant thing I've read on this board. Not only do you not accurately know my positions, you're in no position to render a definitive judgement on the merits of my actual positions (which you don't know). The fact that you claim to know the universal truth - and the correct pathway to reaching it - is truly astounding.

I won't respond point by point. But I will say the overriding flaw of your thinking is your claim that "there are ethics and values that can be judged against one another and are not simply matters of opinion." That is wrong in many contexts and you are basically using that a cudgel for your preferred outcome - you reserve to yourself the right to do the judging.

All values and ethics are largely personal matters of opinion - no one is born with these things in place. Over time, society reaches widespread consensus about many things (racism and poverty are bad, women and men have equal value, freedom is good) - what you refer to progression. But even those are not uniform across our planet. And when there is agreement on a core issue/ethic/value, there will still be good faith disagreement regarding the proper course of action (if any).

We can agree that poverty and income inequality are bad but disagree how to end them (did the war on poverty work?). We can agree that life has intrinsic value, but disagree about how to balance that point of consensus when considering issues like abortion, healthcare the death penalty, and assisted suicide. We can agree that racism, antisemitism, islamaphobia, etc. are bad, but disagree about how to discourage and eliminate hate. Ultimately, the reason people disagree about these things is because they have different values - some people prefer liberty to equality, or personal freedom/choice vs. government coercion. Despite your claim of universal progressive truth ("ethics and values that can be judged against one another"), these are in fact matters of opinion for which reasonable minds can disagree.

You seem to be saying that because you're a good person (according to you) with altruistic motivations (according to your values), your views and preferences (i.e., balancing of values) must be the correct one. It doesn't occur to you that non-progressives (even some conservatives !!!) might have similar good motivations and objectives - and in fact want many of the same things - but vastly different views on how to reach them.