One of the Cal Band End Zone directors was sitting behind us for part of the game. He told us about 80 of the regular Cal Band members did not come to the bowl game as they already had plans to be out of town for the holiday break. That took the band down from around 240 to 160 or so. I thought the band looked and sounded great. The Illinois band was definitely louder due to sheer numbers, but I thought the Cal Band put on the better show.

bitter bear said:

---

One of the Cal Band End Zone directors was sitting behind us for part of the game. He told us about 80 of the regular Cal Band members did not come to the bowl game as they already had plans to be out of town for the holiday break. That took the band down from around 240 to 160 or so. I thought the band looked and sounded great. The Illinois band was definitely louder due to sheer numbers, but I thought the Cal Band put on the better show.

---

Since we usually have 12 sousaphones, but 8 yesterday, I could tell we were short-handed and suspected that it was the holiday break - thanks for confirming. I wonder what the difference between the two bands' approach to the bowl game is: perhaps for Cal, attendance was optional and for Illinois it was mandatory?

(The alternative is that it was optional for Illinois and we only saw 2/3 of their normal numbers, which is truly frightening. )

My hero . . . Charles Atlas.

JSC 76 said:

---

bitter bear said:

---

One of the Cal Band End Zone directors was sitting behind us for part of the game. He told us about 80 of the regular Cal Band members did not come to the bowl game as they already had plans to be out of town for the holiday break. That took the band down from around 240 to 160 or so. I thought the band looked and sounded great. The Illinois band was definitely louder due to sheer numbers, but I thought the Cal Band put on the better show.

---

Since we usually have 12 sousaphones, but 8 yesterday, I could tell we were short-handed and suspected that it was the holiday break - thanks for confirming. I wonder what the difference between the two bands' approach to the bowl game is: perhaps for Cal, attendance was optional and for Illinois it was mandatory?

(The alternative is that it was optional for Illinois and we only saw 2/3 of their normal numbers, which is truly frightening. )

---

We were talking about this yesterday. I gotta think, without having any actual data, Illinois has a larger percentage of band members who are "local" to the school (so let's say within a four hour radius or so of campus). With that in mind, a trip to California in late December from the midwest doesn't seem like it would be a tough sell at all for a bunch of 18-22 year olds... as opposed to having to come back to the Bay Area for kids at Cal who may have wanted to go home for break.

We were in a box in the SAP Tower with the Illinois band to our left and Cal band to our right. We heard the Cal band plenty, but we DEFINITELY heard the Illinois band more. We all commented we thought they were having fun.

Agree heartily with the posters who said it was nice that the bowl left most of the dead time up to the bands... it's what a game day experience should be like.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread the Cal Band members do not get any payments, scholarships or any kind of class credit so you can't really make bowl game attendance mandatory. Also if I was in Illinois in December and had a opportunity for a free trip to the Bay I would jump at the chance, while if you are already in Berkeley a trip to Santa Clara is not so exciting.

bitter bear said:

---

As was mentioned earlier in this thread the Cal Band members do not get any payments, scholarships or any kind of class credit so you can't really make bowl game attendance mandatory. Also if I was in Illinois in December and had a opportunity for a free trip to the Bay I would jump at the chance, while if you are already in Berkeley a trip to Santa Clara is not so exciting.

---

The Illini last played in a 2014 bowl game, so this was the first and maybe only chance for those U of I band members play in a bowl game so of course they all showed up. To a college kid from the midwest, "California" still has a touch of magic attached to it. When I worked at Lockheed in Sunnyvale in the late 70's, our department director was an old guy from Chicago and he was too cheap to fly candidates out for interviews, so he'd just call up the U of Illinois engineering school and ask for some resumes. Then he'd interview them on the phone and make offers and those guys would happily accept. They knew the industrial base around them was crumbling and were glad to escape.

I spoke to one of the assistant conductors at the morning tailgate and asked about the large disparity in the size of the two bands, having seen the Fighting Illini earlier in the morning. He said Illinois band was 300 strong and Cal had 150 marching today out of 240 band members. I realize it is semester break but still hard for me to understand why a third of the band members were no shows yesterday. Pretty lame IMO.

It's been my observation that as the academic challenge of Cal increased, the extreme dedication of the Cal Band members, which in the past has often bordered on reckless, slowly decreased.

I spent 5 years in the band and I can tell you that even within that span of time I noticed from class to class that the profile and personality types of the band members was shifting to someone who had a more balanced view of their band experience and viewed it in the context of their overall goals at Cal.

The band is completely student run, so the activity can literally take up all of your free time and then some. Other than the required performances, practices and rehearsals, there are optional Straw Hat Band performances and 5 different administrative structures where members can volunteer their time in service to the band.

In the past there had been a notable amount of band member's who prioritized band involvement to the detriment of their academics. As it got harder and harder to get into Cal, the amount of people who joined the band who were willing to throw caution to the wind and use their own money to jump into a 15 passenger van and drive to Wisconsin to play for the team decreased. Also these activities were administratively curbed because traveling in this way was not the safest. These trips, which were the norm when I first joined the band, were replaced with more organized bus trips and eventually even plane rides. By my last year they did not exist.

Also I believe that the traditional marching style of the band hurts it's ability to recruit. One could make the argument that the Cal Band is the most traditional high-stepping band in the whole country. It's unwillingness to water down it's marching style to follow the modern trends of bands that prioritize the way they sound over the visual energy of their marching style exceeds almost every band in the country including Ohio State's band (after which it was originally modeled). High school marching bands are almost exclusively corps style bands performing in a style like UCLA's band. This has been the case for more than 3 decades.

While I was at Cal, I met a fair number of people who were in high school marching band but chose not to continue at Cal because they were concerned about their academic load and the time commitment of the band combined with the fact that the style of the band was not appealing based on what they were taught to value in their high school band.

The structure of the band is unique and I value it. The organization is a great part of the University and in many ways is a shining example of the values that one learns as part of the Cal experience.

It would be interesting to see what a few years of sustained football success would do for the band. As I understand it, the schools attending the bowl game are highly motivated to spend all their allocated bowl money which in the larger bowls exceeds the travel costs for the trip. I remember traveling to Washington and seeing band vans, new uniforms, and instruments that were purchased with Rose Bowl money. I always wondered if the Cal band would get this kind of consideration given that they are not part of the Athletic Department and do not receive funding from the Athletic Department.

It would be awesome if we found that out in the next few years!! Go Bears!!

My son is in the Utah marching band. He gets $750 a semester off his bill due to a marching band "scholarship". I'm not sure if all members get that. He also gets 1.0 unit for the class he takes every day for it.
They begin classes next Monday so after he comes back from the Alamo bowl he'll just stay up there and go to class. Cal band members from out of town would have to wait a couple of more weeks for class. I know at Utah most of the dorms were closed during winter break so maybe some of the Cal kids would have trouble finding housing if they came back.

We have a friend who's kid is at Illinois this year and confirmed that all of the midwest kids wanted to go to California.

I graduated from CAL in 1975 and every excuse used above was used back then. The CAL band is good, but I don't think it's as good as USC, UCLA, or UDUB. I find it hard to believe that of all the thousands of students that apply to CAL every year, the CAL band can't find another 50-100 students to be a part of the CAL band. In 2020 we will hear the same excuses. I tend to think that it's the band that is determined to keep it that way, among other things, ie, not being able to hear the band at CMS, the same pregame show since 1972 etc, etc. I enjoy watching the band, and all the traditions at CAL, but I do wish the band could be a bit larger and louder.

evanluck said:

---

It's been my observation that as the academic challenge of Cal increased, the extreme dedication of the Cal Band members, which in the past has often bordered on reckless, slowly decreased.

I spent 5 years in the band and I can tell you that even within that span of time I noticed from class to class that the profile and personality types of the band members was shifting to someone who had a more balanced view on their band experience and viewed it in the context of their overall goals at Cal.

The band is completely student run, so the activity can literally take up all of your free time and then some. Other than the required performances, practices and rehearsals, there are optional Straw Hat Band performances and 5 different administrative structures where members can volunteer their time in service to the band.

In the past there had been a notable amount of band member's who prioritized band involvement to the detriment of their academics. As it got harder and harder to get into Cal, the types of people who joined the band who were willing to throw caution to the wind and us their own money to jump into a 15 passenger van and drive to Wisconsin to play for the team decreased. Also these activities were administratively curbed because traveling in this way was not the safest. These trips, which were the norm when I first joined the band, were replaced with more organized bus trips and eventually even plane rides. By my last year they did not exist.

Also I believe that the traditional marching style of the band hurts it's ability to recruit. One could make the argument that the Cal Band is the most traditional high-stepping band in the whole country. It's unwillingness to water down it's marching style to follow the modern trends of bands that prioritize the way they sound over the visual energy of their marching style exceeds almost every band in the country including Ohio State's band (after which it was originally modeled). High school marching bands are almost exclusively corps style bands performing in a style like UCLA's band. This has been the case for more than 3 decades.

While I was at Cal, I met a fair number of people who were in high school marching band but chose not to continue at Cal because they were concerned about their academic load and the time commitment of the band combined with the fact that the style of the band was not appealing based on what they were taught to value in their high school band.

The structure of the band is unique and I value it. The organization is a great part of the University and in many ways is a shining example of the values that one learns as part of the Cal experience.

It would be interesting to see what a few years of sustained football success would do for the band. As I understand it, the schools attending the bowl game are highly motivated to spend all their allocated bowl money which in the larger bowls exceeds the travel costs for the trip. I remember traveling to Washington and seeing band vans, new uniforms, and instruments that were purchased with Rose Bowl money. I always wondered if the Cal band would get this kind of consideration given that they are not part of the Athletic Department and do not receive funding from the Athletic Department.

It would be awesome if we found that out in the next few years!! Go Bears!!

---

Enlightened, nuanced take by somebody who knows: Thanks!

HateRed said:

---

I graduated from CAL in 1975 and every excuse used above was used back then. The CAL band is good, but I don't think it's as good as USC, UCLA, or UDUB. I find it hard to believe that of all the thousands of students that apply to CAL every year, the CAL band can't find another 50-100 students to be a part of the CAL band. In 2020 we will hear the same excuses. I tend to think that it's the band that is determined to keep it that way, among other things, ie, not being able to hear the band at CMS, the same pregame show since 1972 etc, etc. I enjoy watching the band, and all the traditions at CAL, but I do wish the band could be a bit larger and louder.

---

The same size/instrumentation constraints that existed in 1975 still exist today:

- no Music Performance major from which to draw prospective members

- some students are wary of the time commitment, due to the serious of their studies and/or need to work part-time

- being in a college marching band probably has less cachet in Berkeley than in some other parts of the country

The second one, above, is even more of a constraint now, what with tuition having gone way up. Believe me, the Band makes a huge effort to recruit qualified musicians, especially brass players. They always have.

I get what you're saying, but still, out of 13,000 that are accepted to CAL, there aren't 50 more that can make it into band or that want to be in the band? I enjoy the CAL band a lot when they face the side of the stadium I'm sitting in because then I can hear it, otherwise...

Big C said:

---

HateRed said:

---

I graduated from CAL in 1975 and every excuse used above was used back then. The CAL band is good, but I don't think it's as good as USC, UCLA, or UDUB. I find it hard to believe that of all the thousands of students that apply to CAL every year, the CAL band can't find another 50-100 students to be a part of the CAL band. In 2020 we will hear the same excuses. I tend to think that it's the band that is determined to keep it that way, among other things, ie, not being able to hear the band at CMS, the same pregame show since 1972 etc, etc. I enjoy watching the band, and all the traditions at CAL, but I do wish the band could be a bit larger and louder.

---

The same size/instrumentation constraints that existed in 1975 still exist today:

- no Music Performance major from which to draw prospective members

- some students are wary of the time commitment, due to the serious of their studies and/or need to work part-time

- being in a college marching band probably has less cachet in Berkeley than in some other parts of the country

The second one, above, is even more of a constraint now, what with tuition having gone way up. Believe me, the Band makes a huge effort to recruit qualified musicians, especially brass players. They always have.

---

These are all factors.

Yes. There is a dedicated Public Relations administrative group that has an elected director, and 4-6 person coordinating committee, and a slightly larger group of cub committee members that focus on recruiting as their main jobs. The band has never had true tryouts where less capable members are cut like most of the other elite large college bands.

I guess it makes sense to do the same thing that we do for the football program for the band. That is to search for an institution that has the same profile as Cal's that is doing a better job with their band. I'm not really well versed in the academic statures of the major universities that have also committed football and accompanying spirit groups. Wisconsin comes to mind. Of course there is UCLA.

The band has had some pretty high profile social media exposure over the years with their video of the their video game show in 2007 getting over a million views and getting some high profile twitter mentions from Brittany Spears and Shakira.

I feel like the biggest thing to love about the Cal Band is also its biggest obstacle to true evolution over time. The fact that it is 100% student run with just 2 paid employees means that there is a lot of reinvention of the wheel from year to year as new student leadership comes in and wants to put its own imprint. By the time your really feeling comfortable and confident in the your executive position job, your year is over and it is time for the next group of leaders to take the reins.

The Cal Band had some of its best years under former Director Robert O. Briggs. Bob Briggs had this ability to influence student leadership without a heavy hand. He did it indirectly through teaching and mentoring. He also was established enough at the University that in his later years he felt bold enough to allow the band to be have a bit of a "wild stallion" attitude when it came to the rules and what the Athletic Department wanted it to do. That was when the Cal Band was at its best. When the membership was so bubbling over with Cal Spirit that you were not 100% sure how it was going to express itself.

HateRed said:

---

I get what you're saying, but still, out of 13,000 that are accepted to CAL, there aren't 50 more that can make it into band or that want to be in the band? I enjoy the CAL band a lot when they face the side of the stadium I'm sitting in because then I can hear it, otherwise...

---

The band doesn't turn anyone away. So everyone who shows up and can meet the minimum requirements for rehearsals, practices and performances is in the band.

We would all appreciate a louder band and the Cal Band can get much louder without increasing its numbers. Marching band like football is the ultimate team activity. The band's volume depends as much as intonation and balance as it does on sheer numbers and the volume of individual players.

I always felt that the band's commitment to the traditional athletic marching style hurt the sound in multiple ways. The most obvious way is that it's harder to play in tune when your exerting so much effort marching. The second less obvious way is it decreases the overall standard for how the band should sound and therefore decreases the emphasis on warming up properly and playing in tune and in balance at all costs. There are corps style youth bands with less than 100 players that produce louder sound than not only the Cal Band but also U$C and UCLAs band.

They do this by hyper focusing on playing in tune and in balance. Perfectly tuned instruments generate harmonics so sounds are created that aren't technically being produced by any of the instruments but as a result of the way the sounds resonate together. A classic sum that is greater than its parts scenario.

Most of the people who teach high school bands come from this background and have been preaching this for many decades. It was an attitude that was completely absent when I was in the Cal Band and I haven't seen evidence of it taking hold in th Cal Band since.

My last year in the band as student director, I implemented some of this and due to that and the fact that we had a surplus of experienced brass players that year, the band was one of the loudest and best sounding Cal Bands in history. This was not only my opinion but was commented on by both the UCLA and USC directors.

Of course all those brass players graduated and my successor as student director wanted to do his own thing, so it wasn't something that I saw the band adopt or build on

I love the Cal band, they always put on a good show.
But, the low number of band members is not ideal.
Student attendance, Rally Comm and Cal band attendance/participation is all down.
The athletic director hopefully is leading a charge to improve those numbers in 2020 and in the future.
They make a difference in game day atmosphere, the more the merrier!
UCLA's band in November at the Rose Bowl was large and loud. If UCLA can get a band that large on Saturday night after Thanksgiving we should be able to match/exceed them.
Great day at the bowl yesterday.
Excited about 2020 and the positive direction of the program.

Regarding the lack of organized Cal yells at the game.....The Cal Yell leaders (Mic Men) gave up on leading cheers at away games years ago. They used to bring portable microphones and could lead cheers at away games just as they did at CMS. But they've given up on that, it seems.

Cal Band sounded great as far as I could tell. And they always look better than other bands (except Ohio State). But they do need to replace their uniforms as they are starting to show signs of age and wear. They are in the midst of fundraising for that.

I'm always in favor of having the full uniformed band at as many games as possible. Cal Band is the best ambassador organization the University has. Grambling, Notre Dame, $C and Ohio State realize how important it is to bring a full band to away games. When you bring your full uniformed band to an away game, it just makes it look like you care. I was especially happy to see the full uniformed band get to go up north this year.

BTW, I thought Cal Band looked better on field this year than in many past years. It seemed there was more attention to detail and precision.

Someone mentioned the (true) fact that it is more difficult to play when you march the "high step" style Cal uses. I think if Cal begins to win more games, you'll see numbers go up, and that will help with the volume issue. But you would be bored to tears if Cal Band went away from their current marching style. That is the exact reason they changed to high step in the first place. Their performances prior to seeing the Ohio State band in the early '50s didn't produce anywhere near the excitement and enthusiasm the more energetic high step Ohio State (Big 10) style produces. Again, that is the whole reason why we have the exciting marching style we have today. After being on the field with the Ohio State band at the Rose Bowl in the early '50s, everyone realized Cal's style was boring (more drum and bugle corps style). Ohio State's band looked polished, energized, and more spirited with their better uniforms and high step marching. That's why Cal patterned itself after the Ohio State band, and since that time, Cal Band has been a highly respected and beloved part of the California Spirit. Only UW (on the west coast) does the high step style besides Cal. And the Cal uniform looks infinitely better than the more costumey UW band uniform. (For that matter there isn't a band uniform anywhere that looks better than Cal, Ohio State and Wisconsin).

I hope this isn't the last time we get to see a Big 10 band and Cal Band together on the same field for a while. (Rose Bowl reference/hint intentional).