2 points:
I agree with Paw that Warren (and others) should be celebrated for recognizing their errors and changing. Of course, there exceptions--if the original crime or behavior was so egregious, or the "apology" didn't lead to some kind of restitution. If Jefferey Epstein were still alive, saying, "I now realize it was wrong to rape underage girls," it wouldn't be enough IMO. Of course, Warren is quite the opposite, someone who genuinely supported diversity and inclusion.

I also agree, that in terms of branding, Berkeley Law is far better. My college roomie, a Boalt graduate, notes that there are exactly 2 people in Omaha (where he lives and practices) who have ever heard of Boalt: another graduate and himself.

MSaviolives said:

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GMP said:

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LMK5 said:

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WhatABonanza said:

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Around the world, outside of legal elites, the word "Boalt" means very little. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Boalt Hall. One of them doesn't sound right. It just doesn't carry that much weight from a brand perspective.

Look at the Haas School of Business. For the last 15 years, the word "Berkeley" has taken up more than half of the space on the school's logo. They know that one place name has immense value. And now they simply refer to it as Berkeley Haas.

All around the world, when we mention we went to Berkeley or taught there (I taught at Haas), people think we're smart. In my case, they think I'm smarter than I actually am. The name Berkeley has genuine brand value. For educational credibility, there are few words anywhere that could be better.

I was unaware of controversy surrounding Boalt's history. But when they changed the name, I just thought it was very smart. Future grads won't need to add a clarifying remark about where Boalt Hall is. They will be able to say Berkeley Law and potential clients will say, sure, let's talk. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Berkeley Law. That makes more sense to me.

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But this wasn't a Federal Express to FEDEX exercise. What you're saying is that there is a convenient side effect of the Boalt name removal, but that doesn't lend any credibility to the original process IMO. When you make a judgment 100+ years after the fact, you are not only using the shifting standards of today but you are also concluding that the Berkeley leadership in Boalt's era did not have the moral judgment to make the same decision at that time. It seems to me that you then must have an investigation of the people that accepted the donation and named the building after Boalt, and then go about the same process to make certain their name(s) deserve to be visible on school grounds. Revisionism is a perilous undertaking indeed.

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I believe you have it backwards, but feel free to correct. The name of the law school was changed eleven years ago for marketing purposes. It was the primary reason. As far as I know it was the only reason.

The name of the building was still Boalt Hall, but the name of the school was not. This year they dropped the name from the building after these issues were uncovered. But they did not change the name of the school because of it. It's not a side effect, as you posit.

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That is my understanding as well. The previous school (as opposed to building) name change was about branding--the Dean claimed to have been frustrated when he would travel east and people didn't know that Boalt Hall was UC Berkeley's law school. So the school became Berkeley Law. As a class of '84 Boaltie, Berkeley Lawie, or whatever we call ourselves now, I have never had another lawyer claim not to know that Boalt was at Cal, but whatever.

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Thanks for the additional info. gentlemen.

MSaviolives said:

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GMP said:

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LMK5 said:

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WhatABonanza said:

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Around the world, outside of legal elites, the word "Boalt" means very little. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Boalt Hall. One of them doesn't sound right. It just doesn't carry that much weight from a brand perspective.

Look at the Haas School of Business. For the last 15 years, the word "Berkeley" has taken up more than half of the space on the school's logo. They know that one place name has immense value. And now they simply refer to it as Berkeley Haas.

All around the world, when we mention we went to Berkeley or taught there (I taught at Haas), people think we're smart. In my case, they think I'm smarter than I actually am. The name Berkeley has genuine brand value. For educational credibility, there are few words anywhere that could be better.

I was unaware of controversy surrounding Boalt's history. But when they changed the name, I just thought it was very smart. Future grads won't need to add a clarifying remark about where Boalt Hall is. They will be able to say Berkeley Law and potential clients will say, sure, let's talk. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Berkeley Law. That makes more sense to me.

---

But this wasn't a Federal Express to FEDEX exercise. What you're saying is that there is a convenient side effect of the Boalt name removal, but that doesn't lend any credibility to the original process IMO. When you make a judgment 100+ years after the fact, you are not only using the shifting standards of today but you are also concluding that the Berkeley leadership in Boalt's era did not have the moral judgment to make the same decision at that time. It seems to me that you then must have an investigation of the people that accepted the donation and named the building after Boalt, and then go about the same process to make certain their name(s) deserve to be visible on school grounds. Revisionism is a perilous undertaking indeed.

---

I believe you have it backwards, but feel free to correct. The name of the law school was changed eleven years ago for marketing purposes. It was the primary reason. As far as I know it was the only reason.

The name of the building was still Boalt Hall, but the name of the school was not. This year they dropped the name from the building after these issues were uncovered. But they did not change the name of the school because of it. It's not a side effect, as you posit.

---

That is my understanding as well. The previous school (as opposed to building) name change was about branding--the Dean claimed to have been frustrated when he would travel east and people didn't know that Boalt Hall was UC Berkeley's law school. So the school became Berkeley Law. As a class of '84 Boaltie, Berkeley Lawie, or whatever we call ourselves now, I have never had another lawyer claim not to know that Boalt was at Cal, but whatever.

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I'd be surprised if lawyers didn't recognize Boalt Hall as Cal's law school. Heck, when I was an undergrad at Cal, I knew the law school was called Boalt Hall. In fact, as an undergrad, one of my dreams to be admitted and then to buy a Boalt Hall sweatshirt, which I could then wear with pride as a student/alumnus.

Also, there are other law schools that are named for donors. In fact, Northwestern University School of Law recently rebranded/renamed itself Pritzker Law after a significant donation from an alumnus who is also a scion of the Pritzker family. While it might take a bit of time before Pritzker becomes the commonly understood shorthand for NUSL, I suspect it will happen within one generation (thanks in large part to the US News and World Report rankings).

The nicknaming of graduate/professional programs isn't restricted to law schools. If anything, it's probably more common with B-schools (e.g., Stern, Haas, Sloan, Kellogg). I'd be highly surprised if anyone who went through B-school didn't recognize those schools by their nicknames.

As a Chinese-American, I was disappointed to learn that the law school's namesake was a racist who failed to see the humanity in people who looked like me. If he were around today and held those same views, it would mean he saw me as inferior based solely on my race. Were he then to write the same speeches or issue the same screeds, it would enrage me.

That said, John Boalt has been dead for over 100 years. His position has been disproved in that time. While I recognize that racism and xenophobia are never completely vanquished, they can be innoculated against with knowledge and truth. I am optimistic enough to believe that the past 100+ years of American history will be enough to prevent future generations from subscribing to the fallacious beliefs of John Boalt and the other white supremacists of his era.

As to the name Boalt Hall, maybe it's just me, but I found it to be ironic that his namesake school has graduated countless Chinese-Americans, which (I'd like to think) has contributed to the advancement of Chinese America. To me, this irony is sweet and I enjoyed the thought that Mr. Boalt's legacy would include the advancement of Chinese-Americans despite his efforts to prevent the same.

IMHO, the best thing Cal could've done would be to keep the name Boalt Hall. However, the name should be lowered a bit so people could take pictures with it. How deliciously funny would it be for a Chinese-American student to take a picture in his cap and gown right by the sign bearing John Boalt's name! That would be such a "F You" to John Boalt and his racism.

Of course, I get that not everyone has my twisted sense of humor.

MSaviolives said:

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GMP said:

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LMK5 said:

---

WhatABonanza said:

---

Around the world, outside of legal elites, the word "Boalt" means very little. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Boalt Hall. One of them doesn't sound right. It just doesn't carry that much weight from a brand perspective.

Look at the Haas School of Business. For the last 15 years, the word "Berkeley" has taken up more than half of the space on the school's logo. They know that one place name has immense value. And now they simply refer to it as Berkeley Haas.

All around the world, when we mention we went to Berkeley or taught there (I taught at Haas), people think we're smart. In my case, they think I'm smarter than I actually am. The name Berkeley has genuine brand value. For educational credibility, there are few words anywhere that could be better.

I was unaware of controversy surrounding Boalt's history. But when they changed the name, I just thought it was very smart. Future grads won't need to add a clarifying remark about where Boalt Hall is. They will be able to say Berkeley Law and potential clients will say, sure, let's talk. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Berkeley Law. That makes more sense to me.

---

But this wasn't a Federal Express to FEDEX exercise. What you're saying is that there is a convenient side effect of the Boalt name removal, but that doesn't lend any credibility to the original process IMO. When you make a judgment 100+ years after the fact, you are not only using the shifting standards of today but you are also concluding that the Berkeley leadership in Boalt's era did not have the moral judgment to make the same decision at that time. It seems to me that you then must have an investigation of the people that accepted the donation and named the building after Boalt, and then go about the same process to make certain their name(s) deserve to be visible on school grounds. Revisionism is a perilous undertaking indeed.

---

I believe you have it backwards, but feel free to correct. The name of the law school was changed eleven years ago for marketing purposes. It was the primary reason. As far as I know it was the only reason.

The name of the building was still Boalt Hall, but the name of the school was not. This year they dropped the name from the building after these issues were uncovered. But they did not change the name of the school because of it. It's not a side effect, as you posit.

---

That is my understanding as well. The previous school (as opposed to building) name change was about branding--the Dean claimed to have been frustrated when he would travel east and people didn't know that Boalt Hall was UC Berkeley's law school. So the school became Berkeley Law. As a class of '84 Boaltie, Berkeley Lawie, or whatever we call ourselves now, I have never had another lawyer claim not to know that Boalt was at Cal, but whatever.

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When I travel east, often people didn't know Cal is Berkeley :p.

Heck I've met people at work in the city who didn't know Cal = Berkeley...

01Bear said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

GMP said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

WhatABonanza said:

---

Around the world, outside of legal elites, the word "Boalt" means very little. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Boalt Hall. One of them doesn't sound right. It just doesn't carry that much weight from a brand perspective.

Look at the Haas School of Business. For the last 15 years, the word "Berkeley" has taken up more than half of the space on the school's logo. They know that one place name has immense value. And now they simply refer to it as Berkeley Haas.

All around the world, when we mention we went to Berkeley or taught there (I taught at Haas), people think we're smart. In my case, they think I'm smarter than I actually am. The name Berkeley has genuine brand value. For educational credibility, there are few words anywhere that could be better.

I was unaware of controversy surrounding Boalt's history. But when they changed the name, I just thought it was very smart. Future grads won't need to add a clarifying remark about where Boalt Hall is. They will be able to say Berkeley Law and potential clients will say, sure, let's talk. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Berkeley Law. That makes more sense to me.

---

But this wasn't a Federal Express to FEDEX exercise. What you're saying is that there is a convenient side effect of the Boalt name removal, but that doesn't lend any credibility to the original process IMO. When you make a judgment 100+ years after the fact, you are not only using the shifting standards of today but you are also concluding that the Berkeley leadership in Boalt's era did not have the moral judgment to make the same decision at that time. It seems to me that you then must have an investigation of the people that accepted the donation and named the building after Boalt, and then go about the same process to make certain their name(s) deserve to be visible on school grounds. Revisionism is a perilous undertaking indeed.

---

I believe you have it backwards, but feel free to correct. The name of the law school was changed eleven years ago for marketing purposes. It was the primary reason. As far as I know it was the only reason.

The name of the building was still Boalt Hall, but the name of the school was not. This year they dropped the name from the building after these issues were uncovered. But they did not change the name of the school because of it. It's not a side effect, as you posit.

---

That is my understanding as well. The previous school (as opposed to building) name change was about branding--the Dean claimed to have been frustrated when he would travel east and people didn't know that Boalt Hall was UC Berkeley's law school. So the school became Berkeley Law. As a class of '84 Boaltie, Berkeley Lawie, or whatever we call ourselves now, I have never had another lawyer claim not to know that Boalt was at Cal, but whatever.

---

I'd be surprised if lawyers didn't recognize Boalt Hall as Cal's law school. Heck, when I was an undergrad at Cal, I knew the law school was called Boalt Hall. In fact, as an undergrad, one of my dreams to be admitted and then to buy a Boalt Hall sweatshirt, which I could then wear with pride as a student/alumnus.

Also, there are other law schools that are named for donors. In fact, Northwestern University School of Law recently rebranded/renamed itself Pritzker Law after a significant donation from an alumnus who is also a scion of the Pritzker family. While it might take a bit of time before Pritzker becomes the commonly understood shorthand for NUSL, I suspect it will happen within one generation (thanks in large part to the US News and World Report rankings).

The nicknaming of graduate/professional programs isn't restricted to law schools. If anything, it's probably more common with B-schools (e.g., Stern, Haas, Sloan, Kellogg). I'd be highly surprised if anyone who went through B-school didn't recognize those schools by their nicknames.

---

For what it's worth, Northwestern students and alumni aren't too happy with the name "Pritzker Law." A friend/recent grad (and Berkeley alum!) would be the first to tell you. Penn tried to change its name to "Carey Law" 6-8 months ago and backtracked after the backlash. https://www.thedp.com/article/2019/11/penn-law-carey-renaming-change.

I understand that people dislike the name change on principle: Political correctness is silly, intellectually dishonest, unprincipled, etc.

But "Berkeley Law" is a better name, particularly on the East Coast. "Boalt" and "Berkeley" were already used interchangeably out here in New York City before the formal change.

tigertim said:

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01Bear said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

GMP said:

---

LMK5 said:

---

WhatABonanza said:

---

Around the world, outside of legal elites, the word "Boalt" means very little. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Boalt Hall. One of them doesn't sound right. It just doesn't carry that much weight from a brand perspective.

Look at the Haas School of Business. For the last 15 years, the word "Berkeley" has taken up more than half of the space on the school's logo. They know that one place name has immense value. And now they simply refer to it as Berkeley Haas.

All around the world, when we mention we went to Berkeley or taught there (I taught at Haas), people think we're smart. In my case, they think I'm smarter than I actually am. The name Berkeley has genuine brand value. For educational credibility, there are few words anywhere that could be better.

I was unaware of controversy surrounding Boalt's history. But when they changed the name, I just thought it was very smart. Future grads won't need to add a clarifying remark about where Boalt Hall is. They will be able to say Berkeley Law and potential clients will say, sure, let's talk. Harvard Law. Yale Law. Berkeley Law. That makes more sense to me.

---

But this wasn't a Federal Express to FEDEX exercise. What you're saying is that there is a convenient side effect of the Boalt name removal, but that doesn't lend any credibility to the original process IMO. When you make a judgment 100+ years after the fact, you are not only using the shifting standards of today but you are also concluding that the Berkeley leadership in Boalt's era did not have the moral judgment to make the same decision at that time. It seems to me that you then must have an investigation of the people that accepted the donation and named the building after Boalt, and then go about the same process to make certain their name(s) deserve to be visible on school grounds. Revisionism is a perilous undertaking indeed.

---

I believe you have it backwards, but feel free to correct. The name of the law school was changed eleven years ago for marketing purposes. It was the primary reason. As far as I know it was the only reason.

The name of the building was still Boalt Hall, but the name of the school was not. This year they dropped the name from the building after these issues were uncovered. But they did not change the name of the school because of it. It's not a side effect, as you posit.

---

That is my understanding as well. The previous school (as opposed to building) name change was about branding--the Dean claimed to have been frustrated when he would travel east and people didn't know that Boalt Hall was UC Berkeley's law school. So the school became Berkeley Law. As a class of '84 Boaltie, Berkeley Lawie, or whatever we call ourselves now, I have never had another lawyer claim not to know that Boalt was at Cal, but whatever.

---

I'd be surprised if lawyers didn't recognize Boalt Hall as Cal's law school. Heck, when I was an undergrad at Cal, I knew the law school was called Boalt Hall. In fact, as an undergrad, one of my dreams to be admitted and then to buy a Boalt Hall sweatshirt, which I could then wear with pride as a student/alumnus.

Also, there are other law schools that are named for donors. In fact, Northwestern University School of Law recently rebranded/renamed itself Pritzker Law after a significant donation from an alumnus who is also a scion of the Pritzker family. While it might take a bit of time before Pritzker becomes the commonly understood shorthand for NUSL, I suspect it will happen within one generation (thanks in large part to the US News and World Report rankings).

The nicknaming of graduate/professional programs isn't restricted to law schools. If anything, it's probably more common with B-schools (e.g., Stern, Haas, Sloan, Kellogg). I'd be highly surprised if anyone who went through B-school didn't recognize those schools by their nicknames.

---

For what it's worth, Northwestern students and alumni aren't too happy with the name "Pritzker Law." A friend/recent grad (and Berkeley alum!) would be the first to tell you. Penn tried to change its name to "Carey Law" 6-8 months ago and backtracked after the backlash. https://www.thedp.com/article/2019/11/penn-law-carey-renaming-change.

I understand that people dislike the name change on principle: Political correctness is silly, intellectually dishonest, unprincipled, etc.

But "Berkeley Law" is a better name, particularly on the East Coast. "Boalt" and "Berkeley" were already used interchangeably out here in New York City before the formal change.

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Yeah, I'm familiar with some of the backlash among NUSL alumni. Many of my friends were upset. I really didn't care one way or another. However, if the school were to be named after an alumnus, I would've preferred John Paul Stevens.

Ultimately, though, I doubt the name would be changed back. If anything, I expect the Pritzker name will stick, especially since the Pritzkers are huge donors to Northwestern overall (especially to the law school) and a powerful family in Chicago.

My favorite law school name (short lived) was the Antonin Scalia School Of Law at George Mason University. (Hint: the acronym sounds like...). They changed the name very soon after they adopted it.

ENOUGH, DAMMIT! CALL IT THE...

"CALIFORNIA SCHOOL OF LAW"

Big C said:

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ENOUGH, DAMMIT! CALL IT THE...

"CALIFORNIA SCHOOL OF LAW"

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I'm not necessarily opposed to that name, but some of us older folks will always (reflexively) think of it (if not refer to it) as Boalt or Boalt Hall.