01Bear said:

---

I'm a fan of Jaylen Brown's. In large part this is due to his being a fellow Cal alumnus. But learning about why he chose Cal over the basketball bluebloods is what really won me over.

That said, it's about time he got his due in the NBA. He's been overshadowed by Jayson Tatum. He didn't let that get to him. Instead, while supporting his teammate, he also kept his head down, kept grinding, and doing whatever he needed to improve his game.

I'm happy to see that he's finally getting some long overdue recognition.

I'm still bummed that Jaylen is a member of the Boston Celtics (how I loathe that team!). But I'll continue to root for Jaylen to do well and earn the accolades he deserves even while I root against the rest of the Celtics organization (except, of course, for Leon Powe).

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bill-russell-kendrick-perkins-react-170747253.html

---

SFCityBear said:

---

01Bear said:

---

I'm a fan of Jaylen Brown's. In large part this is due to his being a fellow Cal alumnus. But learning about why he chose Cal over the basketball bluebloods is what really won me over.

That said, it's about time he got his due in the NBA. He's been overshadowed by Jayson Tatum. He didn't let that get to him. Instead, while supporting his teammate, he also kept his head down, kept grinding, and doing whatever he needed to improve his game.

I'm happy to see that he's finally getting some long overdue recognition.

I'm still bummed that Jaylen is a member of the Boston Celtics (how I loathe that team!). But I'll continue to root for Jaylen to do well and earn the accolades he deserves even while I root against the rest of the Celtics organization (except, of course, for Leon Powe).

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bill-russell-kendrick-perkins-react-170747253.html

---

Why do you loathe the Celtics?

---

Oakbear said:

---

brown set a record, most points in 19 minutes 33

I wonder if they have these stats for all minutes

like most points in one minute?? probably a three?? LOL

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

south bender said:

---

Yes, why?

Much great basketball has been played by so many Celtics who were great team players.

Cousy, Sherman, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Parish, Bird, McHale.

Auerbach was a great coach and judge of talent.

Is it simply hating success of a team from the East?

---

Or maybe he's a Lakers fan.

---

For the record, I still think Magic Johnson is the GOAT, but Larry Bird is the 1b to Magic Johnson's 1a. Those who didn't get to watch Larry Bird and Magic Johnson play in their primes really don't understand how good those two were. While LeBron James may be an unprecedented specimen physically, IMHO, Larry Legend was better mentally (both psychologically tougher and had the higher basketball IQ). Larry Bird would be my puck for the greatest small forward of all time--this despite the fact that there have been countless more athletically talented players than he at that position. However, he managed to maximize his talents and beat his opponents with his mental edge.

---

concernedparent said:

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

south bender said:

---

Yes, why?

Much great basketball has been played by so many Celtics who were great team players.

Cousy, Sherman, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Parish, Bird, McHale.

Auerbach was a great coach and judge of talent.

Is it simply hating success of a team from the East?

---

Or maybe he's a Lakers fan.

---

For the record, I still think Magic Johnson is the GOAT, but Larry Bird is the 1b to Magic Johnson's 1a. Those who didn't get to watch Larry Bird and Magic Johnson play in their primes really don't understand how good those two were. While LeBron James may be an unprecedented specimen physically, IMHO, Larry Legend was better mentally (both psychologically tougher and had the higher basketball IQ). Larry Bird would be my puck for the greatest small forward of all time--this despite the fact that there have been countless more athletically talented players than he at that position. However, he managed to maximize his talents and beat his opponents with his mental edge.

---

You've lost me there. Any list that doesn't have LeBron, MJ, Kareem in some order in the top 3 goes straight to the trashbin. Lebron has long surpassed Bird. Especially longevity. Lebron has one of the best basketball IQs; probably his second best attribute next to finishing at the rim.

---

stu said:

---

Good list SFCity.

Minor typo: LeBron has 9548 rebounds, not 95548.

---

Bisonbob said:

---

I watched most of Brown's games at Cal. I'm pleasantly surprised that he has done so well with the Celtics. Yes he was a physically phenom and an appealing athletic ability, but he was underwhelming at Cal. He could not shoot and could not dribble. Yes he could finish at the rim but I saw a player as a three year project at the Pro level. Good for him and the Celtics. I think he has a bright future, so good for him. Too bad Cal did not get half as much from him in his only year. Is that on Coach Martin?

---

Bisonbob said:

---

I watched most of Brown's games at Cal. I'm pleasantly surprised that he has done so well with the Celtics. Yes he was a physically phenom and an appealing athletic ability, but he was underwhelming at Cal. He could not shoot and could not dribble. Yes he could finish at the rim but I saw a player as a three year project at the Pro level. Good for him and the Celtics. I think he has a bright future, so good for him. Too bad Cal did not get half as much from him in his only year. Is that on Coach Martin?

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

south bender said:

---

Yes, why?

Much great basketball has been played by so many Celtics who were great team players.

Cousy, Sherman, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Parish, Bird, McHale.

Auerbach was a great coach and judge of talent.

Is it simply hating success of a team from the East?

---

Or maybe he's a Lakers fan.

---

For the record, I still think Magic Johnson is the GOAT, but Larry Bird is the 1b to Magic Johnson's 1a. Those who didn't get to watch Larry Bird and Magic Johnson play in their primes really don't understand how good those two were. While LeBron James may be an unprecedented specimen physically, IMHO, Larry Legend was better mentally (both psychologically tougher and had the higher basketball IQ). Larry Bird would be my puck for the greatest small forward of all time--this despite the fact that there have been countless more athletically talented players than he at that position. However, he managed to maximize his talents and beat his opponents with his mental edge.

---

You've lost me there. Any list that doesn't have LeBron, MJ, Kareem in some order in the top 3 goes straight to the trashbin. Lebron has long surpassed Bird. Especially longevity. Lebron has one of the best basketball IQs; probably his second best attribute next to finishing at the rim.

---

Magic and Larry revived the NBA. When they first joined the league, it was dying. The league was seen as a den of drug addicts and there was a dearth of fans. Heck, even the NBA championship games weren't always broadcast live, but were taped and then broadcast afterward.

The Magic-Larry/Lakers-Celtics rivalry helped the NBA to become something worth watching. It was an organically developed rivalry between two of the league's blueblooded franchises led by two of the greatest players ever. These two great players even entered the league together after having battled against one another for both the NCAA championship and the national college player of the year awards. This then led to a battle for the NBA's Rookie of the Year Award and ultimately NBA championships.

On top of which, there was a bit of the East Coast-West Coast rivalry. It was the Hollywood glitz and flash of the Showtime Lakers versus the blue collar Puritan work ethic of the Boston Celtics. Though, in truth both teams were flashy and both teams were hardworking, the difference being that the Lakers were a fastbreak team, while the Celtics were more of a half-court offense team. Still, the Lakers could play the half-court game--especially, when they had the great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (another one of the legitimate candidates for GOAT) and the Celtics could also run out and score on fastbreaks.

Obviously, there was also a racial element to the rivalry. Magic Johnson another great black athlete but Larry Bird came to resemble the great white hope. Although the two players were eerily similar in talent, skills, and work ethic, most people ignored their similarities and focused on the obvious differences between the two. Sure Larry Bird was clearly the better shooter (I still consider him to be the best shooter I've ever seen with Steph Curry coming a close second), but Magic Johnson also came to be a reliable scorer for the Lakers, especially as he took over leadership for the Lakers in the twilight of Kareem's career. Yes, Larry Bird wasn't as physically gifted an athlete as many of his peers (the joke being he couldn't jump over a sheet of paper). However, both players saw the game unfold several steps ahead of others, which was reflected in how they both could get steals and could make pinpoint no-look passes to teammates on the move.

While I won't disagree that Lebron James has a good basketball IQ, it's not at the level of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. The latter two regularly made their opponents look foolish with their understanding of the game. I still remember watching Larry Bird inbound the ball to himself by throwing it off a defender's backside and then immediately score a bucket. I remember watching Magic Johnson box out the ball as it was going out of bounds to prevent opponents from getting to it, thereby securing a Lakers team rebound. These are simple basic plays that anyone can do, but few actually still do. Instead, most NBA players today, including Lebron James, will call timeout or standby and do nothing other than watch someone else scramble to the ball.

Then there's also how Magic and Larry made their teammates better. Yes, Michael Jordan made Scottie Pippen into a hall of famer. There's no denying that without MJ, Scottie Pippen would likely not have achieved the same level of greatness. However, the same could be said about Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's impacts on their teammates. Kareem was an aging star when Magic was signed. He won five of his six rings in the latter half of his career because he was teamed with Magic Johnson. Additionally, like with MJ and Pippen, Magic Johnson made James Worthy a hall of famer. Sure, if Worthy never played with Magic, he could've had a decent (or even all-star) career. He could've been another great scorer but he probably wouldn't have become Big Game James. James Worthy became a hall of famer because of how he elevated his game in the playoffs. Without Magic to get him into the playoffs and the ball in the playoffs, he never would've had the opportunity to show that marked postseason improvement. More importantly, Magic taught James Worthy how to win in the NBA.

Arguably, Jamal Wilkes also became a hall of famer thanks to playing with Magic Johnson. Like James Worthy, who later replaced him in the starting lineup, Silk was on the receiving end of numerous Magic Johnson passes, leading him to average 20 points per game in his prime.

While two other Showtime Laker are in the Naismith Hall of Fame, their presence in the Hall are arguably not really due to their playing with Magic Johnson. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a lock as a hall of famer even before he went on to win five championships with Magic Johnson. Bob McAdoo, made the hall because of the entirety of his career (including his overseas career in his post-NBA years), not really due to his time as a Laker playing alongside Magic Johnson. In fact, Mac was a NBA MVP many years before he even joined the Lakers. That said, winning championships with Magic Johnson likely bolstered both their careers and their hall of fame credentials.

While no other Showtime Laker has made the Hall of Fame, Magic did help to elevate their careers. Michael Cooper in particular is now legitimately being considered for it. Coop, though not much of an offensive threat (aside from the Coop-a-loop) was one of the best perimeter defenders and a perennial Sixth Man of the Year candidate. That said, he could also occasionally hit from outside. Mainly, though, he was brought in to guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team. In fact, Larry Bird stated that Coop was the toughest defender he faced.

Speaking of, Larry Bird, he also made hall of famers out of some of his teammates, including the likes of Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. While both McHale and Parish were really good or even great players, they became even better players thanks to playing with Larry Bird. By joining the Celtics, Robert Parish went from a scapegoat on the Warriors into becoming the Chief who helped anchor the Celtics in the low post defensively and provided capable offense as needed. Kevin McHale became a whirling dervish offensively in the post thanks to teams having to pick their poison between which of the Celtics frontcourt Big Three to be the one to kill them on any given night. Individually, Parish and McHale would likely have been good or great players, but playing with Larry Bird helped turn them into hall of famers.

Contrast these resumes with MJ's and LeBron's. It's hard to come up with any other player who could be argued became a Hall of Fame caliber player thanks to playing with them. Maybe an argument could be made for MJ with Dennis Rodman, but the Worm's Hall of Fame credentials were due more to his stellar rebounding and tough defense, both of which he exhibited with the Pistons before he joined MJ on the Bulls. As for Lebron James, he chose to team up with other hall of famers or all-stars in order to chase rings rather than help turn his teammates into them. If anything, it's arguable that playing with Lebron James hurt his all-star teammates' games more than it helped (just look at Kevin Love's career in Minnesota versus in Cleveland alongside Lebron). The exceptions to the rule might be Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis. In Kyrie's case, that could be because he didn't need Lebron to get the ball to him. In AD's case, it's probably because Lebron has finally figured out he needs to help develop his teammates if he wants to win championships.

All in all, this does not speak highly to Lebron's basketball IQ if it took him close to 20 years in the league before he figured out that last point.

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---

01Bear said:

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---

I honestly feel sad that kids today never saw Larry Bird play. Sure, there are YouTube highlight films and clips of Larry Bird, but nothing beats watching him singlehandedly destroy your team when the game is on the line. To make matters worse, he somehow did it while looking no more athletic or talented than some rec league player!

---

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

01Bear said:

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---

I honestly feel sad that kids today never saw Larry Bird play. Sure, there are YouTube highlight films and clips of Larry Bird, but nothing beats watching him singlehandedly destroy your team when the game is on the line. To make matters worse, he somehow did it while looking no more athletic or talented than some rec league player!

---

Cut the racist BS. You wouldn't say that if Bird were black.

Bird was plenty athletic, as shown in the photo below.

---

01Bear said:

---

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

01Bear said:

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---

I honestly feel sad that kids today never saw Larry Bird play. Sure, there are YouTube highlight films and clips of Larry Bird, but nothing beats watching him singlehandedly destroy your team when the game is on the line. To make matters worse, he somehow did it while looking no more athletic or talented than some rec league player!

---

Cut the racist BS. You wouldn't say that if Bird were black.

Bird was plenty athletic, as shown in the photo below.

---

Actually, yes I would. As a comparison, I'll unequivocally state that Shane Battier wasn't very athletic either. For that matter, neither was Glen Big Baby Davis nor Manute Bol. They're all black NBA basketball players but neither possessed elite athleticism (beyond that of normal NBA players*, that is). The latter also applied to Larry Bird.

While I may have taken some poetic license by claiming Larry Bird looked no more athletic than someone in a rec league, the fact of the matter is, outside of his athletic prime Larry Bird did not look terribly athletic. Even then, at his physical prime (before all his injuries took a tole on him physically) he was just an average athlete in the NBA.

But the thing that made him Larry Legend was that he didn't rely on out-athleting his opponents; he beat them with his basketball IQ. He didn't react to his opponents' moves, he anticipated them and countered them before they were even implemented. He jumped into passing lanes just as the ball was passed. He boxed out and snagged rebounds just as the ball came off the board. He created space to shoot better than anyone else to play the game. He did all this with average NBA athleticism, at best.

Larry Bird was not fast, though he could be quick and had impeccable timing. While he couldn't jump over opponents, he knew how to box out and he could elevate enough to dunk the ball** or snag a rebound. More importantly, he put himself in position to snag that rebound before the shot even went up. There was also the little matter that he could also shoot the lights out from anywhere on the court--even from behind the basket!

Of course, Larry Bird was super coordinated. He could pass with either hand. He was also an ambidextrous dribbler and passer who didn't really have a "weak" hand when dribbling or passing. Though he was a right-handed shooter, he could also make buckets with his left hand. But this is really just excellent hand-eye coordination. Jugglers also have excellent hand-eye coordination, but I doubt a circus juggler would be able to run as fast as the average NBA player or jump as high as one.

It's no insult (let alone a racist one) to suggest that Larry Bird was not supremely athletic (at least for a NBA player). If anything, it made what he was able to achieve that much more amazing. What I most admired and feared about Larry Bird was his drive to win and his killer instinct. That part of his mental game was second to none. People talk about Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant both having the greatest drives to win. I have to hand it to Larry Bird. He took a pair of Jacks and stole the pot three times in his career (not to mention winning the MVP three times and even taking an otherwise subpar Indiana State team to the NCAA championship game). All this with roughly average NBA athleticism.

Larry Bird was not a great athlete. He was much better than a great athlete. He was a basketball savant and a killer on the hardwood who would do anything needed to win. I would take him over any other small forward in the history of the NBA. He dominated in the 1980s, but he would run circles around today's players--all while being less athletic than today's superstars. He would put up video hame numbers in the pick and roll game while draining buckets from behind the arc. While he might not be able to stop Lebron James or Kevin Durant, neither would they be able to stop him. But he would also frustrate the hell out of them and break them mentally enough in a seven game series to win a championship.

*To be clear, even the least athletic NBA players possess above average athleticism and agility when compared to the general population. However, there are also elite athletes within the NBA, including Lebron James and Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant, OTOH, had maybe slightly above average NBA athleticism, but like Larry Bird, he had superior basketball IQ and figured out how to maximize his natural talents. Before anyone disputes Kobe Bryant's athleticism, compare him to his contemporaries like Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, and Vince Carter. All three were superior athletes, but Kobe had the higher basketball IQ and figured out how to use get the maximum return on his athleticism (Kobe's jab step was deadly). This was also exactly what Larry Bird did, though he was even less athletically gifted than Kobe Bryant.

**His dunk in the 1992 Olympics was one that his teammates celebrated because it was completely unexpected due to how much his body had deteriorated.

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

south bender said:

---

Yes, why?

Much great basketball has been played by so many Celtics who were great team players.

Cousy, Sherman, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Parish, Bird, McHale.

Auerbach was a great coach and judge of talent.

Is it simply hating success of a team from the East?

---

Or maybe he's a Lakers fan.

---

For the record, I still think Magic Johnson is the GOAT, but Larry Bird is the 1b to Magic Johnson's 1a. Those who didn't get to watch Larry Bird and Magic Johnson play in their primes really don't understand how good those two were. While LeBron James may be an unprecedented specimen physically, IMHO, Larry Legend was better mentally (both psychologically tougher and had the higher basketball IQ). Larry Bird would be my puck for the greatest small forward of all time--this despite the fact that there have been countless more athletically talented players than he at that position. However, he managed to maximize his talents and beat his opponents with his mental edge.

---

You've lost me there. Any list that doesn't have LeBron, MJ, Kareem in some order in the top 3 goes straight to the trashbin. Lebron has long surpassed Bird. Especially longevity. Lebron has one of the best basketball IQs; probably his second best attribute next to finishing at the rim.

---

Magic and Larry revived the NBA. When they first joined the league, it was dying. The league was seen as a den of drug addicts and there was a dearth of fans. Heck, even the NBA championship games weren't always broadcast live, but were taped and then broadcast afterward.

The Magic-Larry/Lakers-Celtics rivalry helped the NBA to become something worth watching. It was an organically developed rivalry between two of the league's blueblooded franchises led by two of the greatest players ever. These two great players even entered the league together after having battled against one another for both the NCAA championship and the national college player of the year awards. This then led to a battle for the NBA's Rookie of the Year Award and ultimately NBA championships.

On top of which, there was a bit of the East Coast-West Coast rivalry. It was the Hollywood glitz and flash of the Showtime Lakers versus the blue collar Puritan work ethic of the Boston Celtics. Though, in truth both teams were flashy and both teams were hardworking, the difference being that the Lakers were a fastbreak team, while the Celtics were more of a half-court offense team. Still, the Lakers could play the half-court game--especially, when they had the great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (another one of the legitimate candidates for GOAT) and the Celtics could also run out and score on fastbreaks.

Obviously, there was also a racial element to the rivalry. Magic Johnson another great black athlete but Larry Bird came to resemble the great white hope. Although the two players were eerily similar in talent, skills, and work ethic, most people ignored their similarities and focused on the obvious differences between the two. Sure Larry Bird was clearly the better shooter (I still consider him to be the best shooter I've ever seen with Steph Curry coming a close second), but Magic Johnson also came to be a reliable scorer for the Lakers, especially as he took over leadership for the Lakers in the twilight of Kareem's career. Yes, Larry Bird wasn't as physically gifted an athlete as many of his peers (the joke being he couldn't jump over a sheet of paper). However, both players saw the game unfold several steps ahead of others, which was reflected in how they both could get steals and could make pinpoint no-look passes to teammates on the move.

While I won't disagree that Lebron James has a good basketball IQ, it's not at the level of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. The latter two regularly made their opponents look foolish with their understanding of the game. I still remember watching Larry Bird inbound the ball to himself by throwing it off a defender's backside and then immediately score a bucket. I remember watching Magic Johnson box out the ball as it was going out of bounds to prevent opponents from getting to it, thereby securing a Lakers team rebound. These are simple basic plays that anyone can do, but few actually still do. Instead, most NBA players today, including Lebron James, will call timeout or standby and do nothing other than watch someone else scramble to the ball.

Then there's also how Magic and Larry made their teammates better. Yes, Michael Jordan made Scottie Pippen into a hall of famer. There's no denying that without MJ, Scottie Pippen would likely not have achieved the same level of greatness. However, the same could be said about Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's impacts on their teammates. Kareem was an aging star when Magic was signed. He won five of his six rings in the latter half of his career because he was teamed with Magic Johnson. Additionally, like with MJ and Pippen, Magic Johnson made James Worthy a hall of famer. Sure, if Worthy never played with Magic, he could've had a decent (or even all-star) career. He could've been another great scorer but he probably wouldn't have become Big Game James. James Worthy became a hall of famer because of how he elevated his game in the playoffs. Without Magic to get him into the playoffs and the ball in the playoffs, he never would've had the opportunity to show that marked postseason improvement. More importantly, Magic taught James Worthy how to win in the NBA.

Arguably, Jamal Wilkes also became a hall of famer thanks to playing with Magic Johnson. Like James Worthy, who later replaced him in the starting lineup, Silk was on the receiving end of numerous Magic Johnson passes, leading him to average 20 points per game in his prime.

While two other Showtime Laker are in the Naismith Hall of Fame, their presence in the Hall are arguably not really due to their playing with Magic Johnson. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a lock as a hall of famer even before he went on to win five championships with Magic Johnson. Bob McAdoo, made the hall because of the entirety of his career (including his overseas career in his post-NBA years), not really due to his time as a Laker playing alongside Magic Johnson. In fact, Mac was a NBA MVP many years before he even joined the Lakers. That said, winning championships with Magic Johnson likely bolstered both their careers and their hall of fame credentials.

While no other Showtime Laker has made the Hall of Fame, Magic did help to elevate their careers. Michael Cooper in particular is now legitimately being considered for it. Coop, though not much of an offensive threat (aside from the Coop-a-loop) was one of the best perimeter defenders and a perennial Sixth Man of the Year candidate. That said, he could also occasionally hit from outside. Mainly, though, he was brought in to guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team. In fact, Larry Bird stated that Coop was the toughest defender he faced.

Speaking of, Larry Bird, he also made hall of famers out of some of his teammates, including the likes of Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. While both McHale and Parish were really good or even great players, they became even better players thanks to playing with Larry Bird. By joining the Celtics, Robert Parish went from a scapegoat on the Warriors into becoming the Chief who helped anchor the Celtics in the low post defensively and provided capable offense as needed. Kevin McHale became a whirling dervish offensively in the post thanks to teams having to pick their poison between which of the Celtics frontcourt Big Three to be the one to kill them on any given night. Individually, Parish and McHale would likely have been good or great players, but playing with Larry Bird helped turn them into hall of famers.

Contrast these resumes with MJ's and LeBron's. It's hard to come up with any other player who could be argued became a Hall of Fame caliber player thanks to playing with them. Maybe an argument could be made for MJ with Dennis Rodman, but the Worm's Hall of Fame credentials were due more to his stellar rebounding and tough defense, both of which he exhibited with the Pistons before he joined MJ on the Bulls. As for Lebron James, he chose to team up with other hall of famers or all-stars in order to chase rings rather than help turn his teammates into them. If anything, it's arguable that playing with Lebron James hurt his all-star teammates' games more than it helped (just look at Kevin Love's career in Minnesota versus in Cleveland alongside Lebron). The exceptions to the rule might be Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis. In Kyrie's case, that could be because he didn't need Lebron to get the ball to him. In AD's case, it's probably because Lebron has finally figured out he needs to help develop his teammates if he wants to win championships.

All in all, this does not speak highly to Lebron's basketball IQ if it took him close to 20 years in the league before he figured out that last point.

---

Civil Bear said:

---

01Bear said:

---

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

01Bear said:

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---

I honestly feel sad that kids today never saw Larry Bird play. Sure, there are YouTube highlight films and clips of Larry Bird, but nothing beats watching him singlehandedly destroy your team when the game is on the line. To make matters worse, he somehow did it while looking no more athletic or talented than some rec league player!

---

Cut the racist BS. You wouldn't say that if Bird were black.

Bird was plenty athletic, as shown in the photo below.

---

Actually, yes I would. As a comparison, I'll unequivocally state that Shane Battier wasn't very athletic either. For that matter, neither was Glen Big Baby Davis nor Manute Bol. They're all black NBA basketball players but neither possessed elite athleticism (beyond that of normal NBA players*, that is). The latter also applied to Larry Bird.

While I may have taken some poetic license by claiming Larry Bird looked no more athletic than someone in a rec league, the fact of the matter is, outside of his athletic prime Larry Bird did not look terribly athletic. Even then, at his physical prime (before all his injuries took a tole on him physically) he was just an average athlete in the NBA.

But the thing that made him Larry Legend was that he didn't rely on out-athleting his opponents; he beat them with his basketball IQ. He didn't react to his opponents' moves, he anticipated them and countered them before they were even implemented. He jumped into passing lanes just as the ball was passed. He boxed out and snagged rebounds just as the ball came off the board. He created space to shoot better than anyone else to play the game. He did all this with average NBA athleticism, at best.

Larry Bird was not fast, though he could be quick and had impeccable timing. While he couldn't jump over opponents, he knew how to box out and he could elevate enough to dunk the ball** or snag a rebound. More importantly, he put himself in position to snag that rebound before the shot even went up. There was also the little matter that he could also shoot the lights out from anywhere on the court--even from behind the basket!

Of course, Larry Bird was super coordinated. He could pass with either hand. He was also an ambidextrous dribbler and passer who didn't really have a "weak" hand when dribbling or passing. Though he was a right-handed shooter, he could also make buckets with his left hand. But this is really just excellent hand-eye coordination. Jugglers also have excellent hand-eye coordination, but I doubt a circus juggler would be able to run as fast as the average NBA player or jump as high as one.

It's no insult (let alone a racist one) to suggest that Larry Bird was not supremely athletic (at least for a NBA player). If anything, it made what he was able to achieve that much more amazing. What I most admired and feared about Larry Bird was his drive to win and his killer instinct. That part of his mental game was second to none. People talk about Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant both having the greatest drives to win. I have to hand it to Larry Bird. He took a pair of Jacks and stole the pot three times in his career (not to mention winning the MVP three times and even taking an otherwise subpar Indiana State team to the NCAA championship game). All this with roughly average NBA athleticism.

Larry Bird was not a great athlete. He was much better than a great athlete. He was a basketball savant and a killer on the hardwood who would do anything needed to win. I would take him over any other small forward in the history of the NBA. He dominated in the 1980s, but he would run circles around today's players--all while being less athletic than today's superstars. He would put up video hame numbers in the pick and roll game while draining buckets from behind the arc. While he might not be able to stop Lebron James or Kevin Durant, neither would they be able to stop him. But he would also frustrate the hell out of them and break them mentally enough in a seven game series to win a championship.

*To be clear, even the least athletic NBA players possess above average athleticism and agility when compared to the general population. However, there are also elite athletes within the NBA, including Lebron James and Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant, OTOH, had maybe slightly above average NBA athleticism, but like Larry Bird, he had superior basketball IQ and figured out how to maximize his natural talents. Before anyone disputes Kobe Bryant's athleticism, compare him to his contemporaries like Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, and Vince Carter. All three were superior athletes, but Kobe had the higher basketball IQ and figured out how to use get the maximum return on his athleticism (Kobe's jab step was deadly). This was also exactly what Larry Bird did, though he was even less athletically gifted than Kobe Bryant.

**His dunk in the 1992 Olympics was one that his teammates celebrated because it was completely unexpected due to how much his body had deteriorated.

---

"If Bird was Black, he'd be just another good player."
-Isiah Thomas
NBA HOF '00
Cal M. Ed. '13

---

concernedparent said:

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

01Bear said:

---

concernedparent said:

---

south bender said:

---

Yes, why?

Much great basketball has been played by so many Celtics who were great team players.

Cousy, Sherman, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Parish, Bird, McHale.

Auerbach was a great coach and judge of talent.

Is it simply hating success of a team from the East?

---

Or maybe he's a Lakers fan.

---

For the record, I still think Magic Johnson is the GOAT, but Larry Bird is the 1b to Magic Johnson's 1a. Those who didn't get to watch Larry Bird and Magic Johnson play in their primes really don't understand how good those two were. While LeBron James may be an unprecedented specimen physically, IMHO, Larry Legend was better mentally (both psychologically tougher and had the higher basketball IQ). Larry Bird would be my puck for the greatest small forward of all time--this despite the fact that there have been countless more athletically talented players than he at that position. However, he managed to maximize his talents and beat his opponents with his mental edge.

---

You've lost me there. Any list that doesn't have LeBron, MJ, Kareem in some order in the top 3 goes straight to the trashbin. Lebron has long surpassed Bird. Especially longevity. Lebron has one of the best basketball IQs; probably his second best attribute next to finishing at the rim.

---

Magic and Larry revived the NBA. When they first joined the league, it was dying. The league was seen as a den of drug addicts and there was a dearth of fans. Heck, even the NBA championship games weren't always broadcast live, but were taped and then broadcast afterward.

The Magic-Larry/Lakers-Celtics rivalry helped the NBA to become something worth watching. It was an organically developed rivalry between two of the league's blueblooded franchises led by two of the greatest players ever. These two great players even entered the league together after having battled against one another for both the NCAA championship and the national college player of the year awards. This then led to a battle for the NBA's Rookie of the Year Award and ultimately NBA championships.

On top of which, there was a bit of the East Coast-West Coast rivalry. It was the Hollywood glitz and flash of the Showtime Lakers versus the blue collar Puritan work ethic of the Boston Celtics. Though, in truth both teams were flashy and both teams were hardworking, the difference being that the Lakers were a fastbreak team, while the Celtics were more of a half-court offense team. Still, the Lakers could play the half-court game--especially, when they had the great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (another one of the legitimate candidates for GOAT) and the Celtics could also run out and score on fastbreaks.

Obviously, there was also a racial element to the rivalry. Magic Johnson another great black athlete but Larry Bird came to resemble the great white hope. Although the two players were eerily similar in talent, skills, and work ethic, most people ignored their similarities and focused on the obvious differences between the two. Sure Larry Bird was clearly the better shooter (I still consider him to be the best shooter I've ever seen with Steph Curry coming a close second), but Magic Johnson also came to be a reliable scorer for the Lakers, especially as he took over leadership for the Lakers in the twilight of Kareem's career. Yes, Larry Bird wasn't as physically gifted an athlete as many of his peers (the joke being he couldn't jump over a sheet of paper). However, both players saw the game unfold several steps ahead of others, which was reflected in how they both could get steals and could make pinpoint no-look passes to teammates on the move.

While I won't disagree that Lebron James has a good basketball IQ, it's not at the level of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. The latter two regularly made their opponents look foolish with their understanding of the game. I still remember watching Larry Bird inbound the ball to himself by throwing it off a defender's backside and then immediately score a bucket. I remember watching Magic Johnson box out the ball as it was going out of bounds to prevent opponents from getting to it, thereby securing a Lakers team rebound. These are simple basic plays that anyone can do, but few actually still do. Instead, most NBA players today, including Lebron James, will call timeout or standby and do nothing other than watch someone else scramble to the ball.

Then there's also how Magic and Larry made their teammates better. Yes, Michael Jordan made Scottie Pippen into a hall of famer. There's no denying that without MJ, Scottie Pippen would likely not have achieved the same level of greatness. However, the same could be said about Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's impacts on their teammates. Kareem was an aging star when Magic was signed. He won five of his six rings in the latter half of his career because he was teamed with Magic Johnson. Additionally, like with MJ and Pippen, Magic Johnson made James Worthy a hall of famer. Sure, if Worthy never played with Magic, he could've had a decent (or even all-star) career. He could've been another great scorer but he probably wouldn't have become Big Game James. James Worthy became a hall of famer because of how he elevated his game in the playoffs. Without Magic to get him into the playoffs and the ball in the playoffs, he never would've had the opportunity to show that marked postseason improvement. More importantly, Magic taught James Worthy how to win in the NBA.

Arguably, Jamal Wilkes also became a hall of famer thanks to playing with Magic Johnson. Like James Worthy, who later replaced him in the starting lineup, Silk was on the receiving end of numerous Magic Johnson passes, leading him to average 20 points per game in his prime.

While two other Showtime Laker are in the Naismith Hall of Fame, their presence in the Hall are arguably not really due to their playing with Magic Johnson. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a lock as a hall of famer even before he went on to win five championships with Magic Johnson. Bob McAdoo, made the hall because of the entirety of his career (including his overseas career in his post-NBA years), not really due to his time as a Laker playing alongside Magic Johnson. In fact, Mac was a NBA MVP many years before he even joined the Lakers. That said, winning championships with Magic Johnson likely bolstered both their careers and their hall of fame credentials.

While no other Showtime Laker has made the Hall of Fame, Magic did help to elevate their careers. Michael Cooper in particular is now legitimately being considered for it. Coop, though not much of an offensive threat (aside from the Coop-a-loop) was one of the best perimeter defenders and a perennial Sixth Man of the Year candidate. That said, he could also occasionally hit from outside. Mainly, though, he was brought in to guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team. In fact, Larry Bird stated that Coop was the toughest defender he faced.

Speaking of, Larry Bird, he also made hall of famers out of some of his teammates, including the likes of Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. While both McHale and Parish were really good or even great players, they became even better players thanks to playing with Larry Bird. By joining the Celtics, Robert Parish went from a scapegoat on the Warriors into becoming the Chief who helped anchor the Celtics in the low post defensively and provided capable offense as needed. Kevin McHale became a whirling dervish offensively in the post thanks to teams having to pick their poison between which of the Celtics frontcourt Big Three to be the one to kill them on any given night. Individually, Parish and McHale would likely have been good or great players, but playing with Larry Bird helped turn them into hall of famers.

Contrast these resumes with MJ's and LeBron's. It's hard to come up with any other player who could be argued became a Hall of Fame caliber player thanks to playing with them. Maybe an argument could be made for MJ with Dennis Rodman, but the Worm's Hall of Fame credentials were due more to his stellar rebounding and tough defense, both of which he exhibited with the Pistons before he joined MJ on the Bulls. As for Lebron James, he chose to team up with other hall of famers or all-stars in order to chase rings rather than help turn his teammates into them. If anything, it's arguable that playing with Lebron James hurt his all-star teammates' games more than it helped (just look at Kevin Love's career in Minnesota versus in Cleveland alongside Lebron). The exceptions to the rule might be Kyrie Irving and Anthony Davis. In Kyrie's case, that could be because he didn't need Lebron to get the ball to him. In AD's case, it's probably because Lebron has finally figured out he needs to help develop his teammates if he wants to win championships.

All in all, this does not speak highly to Lebron's basketball IQ if it took him close to 20 years in the league before he figured out that last point.

---

Look at this list and ask yourself which of these players Magic or Bird would elevate. Cavaliers 2006 Roster. Those scrubs don't even deserve to be on the same court as McHale, Parish, Wilkes. Also, I think you're really underselling Pippen, who was one the best defenders in the league at the time and decent offensive player in his own right. His scoring stats would be a lot sexier if he didn't have one of the greatest scorers on the same team taking most of the shots. He was a damn good player and probably would've made the hall either way.

---

south bender said:

---

An amazing, super intelligent post.

Thanks!

I have never enjoyed a player at any level as much as I did Bird.

And for me Magic was not far behind

---