As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

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Agreed. I expect Cal will take a big step forward and be at least middle of the pac (5-7) in conference next season. Would be helpful to start stringing some wins together this season to build confidence and knowledge of how to win for next season.

joe amos yaks said:

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I think you need to give more credit to AD Williams + Coach Jones ... and maybe Coach Martin.

The talent that left when and before Coach Fox was hired was expected.

The young Bears have "improved" under Coach Fox.

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What kind of credit do you wish to give those three. Credit for setting Cal BB back years, yes.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/may/07/washington-state-grabs-commitment-from-mouhamed-gu/?amp-content=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Mouhamed Gueye, a 7-footer from Senegal who's considered the nation's sixth-rated power forward, has committed to #WSU, overtaking Klay Thompson as the top recruit in program history.

Gueye: "I don't like to say it, but I think I'm a unicorn."https://t.co/ssFN96eevz

— Theo Lawson (@TheoLawson_SR) May 7, 2021

We are a football school (and not a very good one)

socaltownie said:

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We are a football school (and not a very good one)

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Which is funny and sad because WSU has been a better football school for the past few years.

Smith got the 34th ranked player in the class to commit to WSU, and they have realistic tournament expectations in year 3. Fox and Cal are not on the same planet.

We could pull names out of a hat.

The names for the hat keep growing.

Credit for what? He needs more than a savvy PG.

socaliganbear said:

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Smith got the 34th ranked player in the class to commit to WSU, and they have realistic tournament expectations in year 3. Fox and Cal are not on the same planet.

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If anything, the kid is underrated. 6'11" with a great wingspan, great looking shot from three, good ball handling, good footwork in the post, good passing and court sense, great leaping and shot blocking.


The only consolation is he will not be at WSU for 4 years. And for those that think getting top players that are good enough to get drafted is the ruination of a program, they can even even gloat that Kyle Smith is a fool for recruiting someone that good.

calumnus said:

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socaliganbear said:

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Smith got the 34th ranked player in the class to commit to WSU, and they have realistic tournament expectations in year 3. Fox and Cal are not on the same planet.

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If anything, the kid is underrated. 6'11" with a great wingspan, great looking shot from three, good ball handling, good footwork in the post, good passing and court sense, great leaping and shot blocking.


The only consolation is he will not be at WSU for 4 years. And for those that think getting top players that are good enough to get drafted is the ruination of a program, they can even even gloat that Kyle Smith is a fool for recruiting someone that good.

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wow, he looks like a game changer

wsu looks like an pac12 upper half team in year 3

HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

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When Fox and Smith were hired at Cal and WSU, Cal definitely had the better roster. Jones left some good, though young, talent. Smith had the bigger hole to dig out of but has done a better job of getting talent and coaching them up. No reason to think he couldn't have done the same or better at Cal.

Cal is in a much bigger hole talent-wise now, and will be in a worse hole next year when the last of Wyking Jones' recruits are gone.

calumnus said:

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HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

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When Fox and Smith were hired at Cal and WSU, Cal definitely had the better roster. Jones left some good, young talent. Smith had the bigger hole to dig out of but has done a better job of getting talent and coaching them up. No reason to think he couldn't have done the same or better at Cal.

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except for academic requirements.

wsu signed some players that may not have been able to be admitted at cal

Civil Bear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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I don't want to pile on and I am fine (so far) with the job Fox has been doing for Cal. That said, Smith was my top choice of the realistic options being discussed at the time. I was impressed by his work at USF, and thought his familiarity with the Bay Area was a big plus. So I've been watching WSU closely. BUT, at the end of last season I felt that Fox was doing a better job so far. This year has been so discombobulated that I'm not going to make too much out of differences that are a matter of small degree.
But it's a comparison I've been looking at and will really be looking at closely next season.

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Fox had the better resume. IIRC, Smith had never made it to the NIT let alone the NCAA tourney, or finished higher than 4th in any conference, including the Ivy [EDIT: Oops, looks like he finished 3rd in the Ivy before getting promoted to the WCC).

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My other degree is from Columbia. When Smith took over Columbia had 2 winning seasons in 4 decades. They were horrifically bad. Worse than their horrifically bad football team. No one went to games. There were just much better things to do in NYC. Smith got them to 25 wins, and made them a contender in the Ivy League, with crowds of cheering students in the stands. I can't stress enough what an accomplishment that was. He literally built a winning program from nothing.

Dear Socal: Correction. cal is a left-wing school which fields football and basketball teams.

HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

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When Fox and Smith were hired at Cal and WSU, Cal definitely had the better roster. Jones left some good, young talent. Smith had the bigger hole to dig out of but has done a better job of getting talent and coaching them up. No reason to think he couldn't have done the same or better at Cal.

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except for academic requirements.

wsu signed some players that may not have been able to be admitted at cal

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Gueye went to the same school as Kuany and had an offer from UCLA, I'm pretty sure academics were not a barrier for Cal. I'm not sure which other WSU recruits you are referring to, but WSU does have a lower bar. However Fox is not dealing with anything any other Cal coach has not had to deal with. The roster Jones left was better than the roster Smith inherited.

I've mentioned that Smith was my preferred choice (albeit based on pretty superficial information) at the time of hire, but others have posted that Cal had no realistic chance to hire him, maybe unless we blew him away financially (which wouldn't have been warranted at the time), because of his wife's connections to WA.

calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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As frustrated as I am with the program's lack of progress, I'm not sure WSU's coach would have had a better time of it. This program was in a huge hole talent wise and they're just starting to dig out of it. Plus, the disparity in COVID responses really puts Cal at a disadvantage.

Comparing the two programs next season when they're on even footing would be valid. Also a good time to make a serious evaluation of Fox. We need more than just "signs of life" from this program next season. But this isn't the season to make comparisons.

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When Fox and Smith were hired at Cal and WSU, Cal definitely had the better roster. Jones left some good, young talent. Smith had the bigger hole to dig out of but has done a better job of getting talent and coaching them up. No reason to think he couldn't have done the same or better at Cal.

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except for academic requirements.

wsu signed some players that may not have been able to be admitted at cal

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Gueye went to the same school as Kuany and had an offer from UCLA, I'm pretty sure academics were not a barrier for Cal. I'm not sure which other WSU recruits you are referring to, but WSU does have a lower bar. However Fox is not dealing with anything any other Cal coach has not had to deal with. The roster Jones left was better than the roster Smith inherited.

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my understanding is Cal's admission standards for athletes is higher than UCLA's. I've argued that it shouldn't be, and it's certainly higher than WSU's.

However I have no idea which, if any WSU recruits would not be available to Cal due to those standards.

Pretty clear that WSU's recruiting has blown away Cal's in the same timeframe.

I was only pointing out that WSU (and many other Pac12 schools) have that advantage over Cal, Fox isn't the first coach to have that impact recruiting. Just look back at several of the recruits that Martin went after that didn't qualify at Cal, but went to other high D1 schools.

This isn't a free pass for Cal. Just a factor among many in recruiting

Alkiadt said:

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BeachedBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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helltopay1 said:

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Quick question....Did the AD even interview Smith?????

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I thought he did. At least it was my understanding that Smith was on the short list. But I'm not an insider, so I don't know for certain.

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Good question. Kyle Smith was hired 2 days before Fox was, so the timing is right. My theory is that Smith, already familiar with the Bay Area and pining for the fjords of Pullman, tanked any Cal interview likely turning down $$$ to lock up his dream job at WSU.

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Cool story bro. Snarky, makes Knowlton look bad, and is correct in the fact that he did have the WSU job as his dream job. But there wasn't ever any interview.

Kyle Smith did not interview because he and his wife wanted the WSU job. Katie is from Lake Chelan, WA, (and still holds a scoring record of 50 points in a WA State Championship game). She wanted to be in Washington. Not the Bay Area.

So it was their dream job....and there was a reason Knowlton didn't interview him.

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So your position is Kyle Smith was a better candidate than Fox, but Cal had zero chance so good thing Knowlton didn't even try?

drizzlybear said:

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I've mentioned that Smith was my preferred choice (albeit based on pretty superficial information) at the time of hire, but others have posted that Cal had no realistic chance to hire him, maybe unless we blew him away financially (which wouldn't have been warranted at the time), because of his wife's connections to WA.

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Good article on Smith and "Nerdball": https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wsu-cougar-basketball/the-nerdball-era-begins-at-washington-state-heres-why-its-all-about-defense-for-kyle-smith-and-the-cougars/