OdontoBear66 said:

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NathanAllen said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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NathanAllen said:

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stu said:

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As far as the comment about WSU's personnel versus Cal's, it's a very interesting point. Both teams are in a similar place with being pretty bad and then hiring a new coach two years ago. Wazzu has basically stacked the roster with younger pieces and a couple traditional transfers from other schools or JuCo while Cal has gone a bit more grad transfer-heavy ...

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From what I saw I's say WSU has filled their roster with better players. They looked longer, more athletic, and more skilled.

Reasons for that could include recruiting chops, scouting acumen, academic requirements, campus environment, more. I can't say since every player is different.

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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I do recommend making a judgment based on more than one game in which Cal lost by 31 points. (Maybe you have, just saying based on your statement, it doesn't seem like it.)

If you go off recruiting rankings, WSU's 2020 class was ranked fourth in the conference, but mainly because they had six commits (one four-star and five three-stars, according to 247Sports). Two players were ranked in the top-150, three in the 200 to 300 range, and one 400+. The 2019 class ranked 11th in the conference and had a whopping eight players from incoming freshmen to juco transfers to a traditional transfer. This class is really performing above its ranking as it includes Noah Williams, Isaac Bonton, and D.J. Rodman, among others. The 2018 class ranked last (12th) in the league, but the majority of WSU's rotation comes from the previous two classes.

Really, there is nothing special about Wazzu's classes, according to the rankings. Obviously, guys like Williams and Bonton have over-performed. And, of course, rankings aren't everything.

But I just want to reiterate my point that just because they looked longer, more athletic, and skilled in a lopsided win against Cal, doesn't mean they always are. Despite what we've seen them do to Cal this year, Wazzu isn't a good team. Outside of wins over Oregon and UCLA, they haven't beaten a KenPom top-100 team this season. Cal also has two wins over top-100 KenPom teams (Colorado and Utah). Keep in mind, Cal really depends on Bradley for a lot, and both times they've played Wazzu this year Bradley has been totally out with an injury or recovering from a sickness.

Now, I'm not defending Cal's performance last night. It was by far the worst of the season. With a sick Bradley or not, it was bad. They made a team with an adjusted offensive efficiency ranked in the 200s in KenPom look like the 2017 Warriors and Noah Williams look like Steph Curry. I just wouldn't come to too strong of a conclusion based on the sample size of one or two games.

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Yes, I know on a website it is your role to maintain and generate interest, but for the day to day fan that game was one where you best just turned it off and did an occasional score check rather than get upset. I was really feeling good about what Fox was doing with the team, and yes to calm the crowd we can cite the difficulty of playing in the Palouse, but "making judgment based on more than one game"??? We have played some very exciting games getting the unexpected wins with Utah and Colorado, but then we have stunk up the joint like last night by a so-so team without its best player. This team is 3-14 in conference and slipping below UW. I have followed every game to the end for Cal in my roughly 70 years as a fan, but BB of late has just made me move to better use of my time. It is not good except in spurts.

And believe me I know most of the reasons starting with Cuonzo (what he didn't leave on the table as he exited for his $21M) until current. This is not good currently Nathan, by almost any measure. And as I say that I will not point the finger at Fox. He just does not have enough Pac 12 talent to play a season.

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I'm not sure what to tell you. It's going to take a while for Cal to get out of the hole it fell into. And Cal has some disadvantages when it comes to upgrading the roster (recent poor performance, no practice facility, admissions standards, etc.).

Again, I'm not defending Cal's performance last night. I'm just trying to offer some perspective. As you said, you were feeling good about what Fox was doing with the team. It's not going to be a linear path back to where many fans think this program should be.

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But as much as you love Cal, like me, last night was just difficult to watch for the most ardent fan. I kept checking scores while doing something else and had they cut it to 10 or 12 the game would be reasonable and watchable as most games have been this year despite the W/L record. Last night was falling in a hole and digging deeper. I know you must be there in your role, but there is one thing standing by your team and another of come back for the next game. BTW, I never missed any games in the long, long UCLA streak. There was always hope whether real of not. This is just difficult and my personal feeling was CM fleeing for $$$ and hiring WJ was the day we fell in the hole. Its gonna take a lot of work.

BTW, as much as I love Cal FB hoops was always my game so this is a spear in the heart. Having grandkid also at G'town (they are rebuilding with difficulty in a much more difficult league) I get my BB there. Not riding a winner at all (see there record) but Patrick is bringing them along, albeit slowly. Great recruits coming with Aminu Muhammed and Motumbo's kid. That to will take time and patience, but there is a measure of things building after the 3 transfers last year.

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Watched the first half then old time radio on xm. Checked with 7 min to go and was glad Inturned it off. Taking it one game at a time. Hoping for a win i pac12 tourney but not hopeful.

NathanAllen said:

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you said, really. It's all good perspective.

The PG position has turned into a blackhole for Cal's roster/rotation. That doesn't mean it can't be redeemed. I think Brown and Hyder will both turn into good P12 players. But for whatever reason, the two are both really struggling right now. You're right in that it's just one game. And, to be sure, nearly every team in college hoops this year not named Gonzaga or Baylor has laid at least one massive turd for a game. It happens.

One thing to keep in mind is while the PG play has been disappointing as of late, both Brown and Hyder have made improvements in many advanced analytics categories compared to last year. Patience might be needed in their development.

As far as the comment about WSU's personnel versus Cal's, it's a very interesting point. Both teams are in a similar place with being pretty bad and then hiring a new coach two years ago. Wazzu has basically stacked the roster with younger pieces and a couple traditional transfers from other schools or JuCo while Cal has gone a bit more grad transfer-heavy. Despite what happened last night, I still think it's too early to evaluate which one is/wll be more successful, but it is interesting to see some similarities and differences from the two different coaches and two different schools. (Please don't hijack this thread into another debate about Kyle Smith versus Mark Fox.)

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Almost every team has laid an egg. Almost every team has had a game where they played over their heads. One game does not define a team whether it be Colorado or WSU. Two things

1. Laying an egg and playing over your heads is all relative. Most teams lay an egg. Most teams do not lose by 31 to the 9th place team in conference who is missing their best player. Most teams have a great game. Most teams don't consider beating the 4th place team an astounding accomplishment

2. No a team is not judged by one game. They are judged by their body of work over the season.