Cal8285 said:

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OaktownBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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NathanAllen said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Quick summary of the thread:

• Fire Fox now
• Fire Fox after the tourney
• Replace Fox after next season
• Replace Fox after season Four

I couldn't find anyone suggesting that Fox is the coach of the future and that we should extend his contract. That seems telling to me.

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This is going to be unpopular among the vocal posters of this thread, but if Cal makes the NCAA Tourney next season

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LMAO

I would love to take as much money as you'd be willing to put up to teach you a lesson on that awful prognostication.

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See the word "if". Understand the word "prognostication".

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I absolutely agree that if we make the tournament next year, we should add a year or two to his contract. He will have earned that opportunity.

When my kids were little, we took them to Tahoe for a little vacation. My daughter says to me that she wants a house in Tahoe with a big balcony overlooking a meadow. I told her that if we ever buy a house in Tahoe I'll make sure it has a big balcony overlooking a meadow.

And in the same way, I tell you now that if we make the tournament next year we will extend him.

Pretty sure that was Jonah's point.

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I'm guessing that Cal's chances of making the tourney next year are better than the chances back when your kids were little that you would ever buy a house in Tahoe.

Call me an optimist, but I'd put the odds against Cal making the tourney next year at around 150-1. Give me 500-1 and I'll put $10 on Cal. From your tone, I'm guessing the chances of you buying a house in Tahoe were more like 1,000,000-1. And I'm sure if you had told your daughter that, she would have said, "So you're sayin' there's a chance!"

Yeah, whether the odds are 150-1 or 1,000,000-1 against, if Fox stuns us all and makes the tourney, yeah, give him that extension. Not sure how Nathan feels about the odds, but I presume he thinks it is a long shot at best.

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I'm going with the house in Tahoe.

drizzlybear said:

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calumnus said:

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OaktownBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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NathanAllen said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Quick summary of the thread:

• Fire Fox now
• Fire Fox after the tourney
• Replace Fox after next season
• Replace Fox after season Four

I couldn't find anyone suggesting that Fox is the coach of the future and that we should extend his contract. That seems telling to me.

---

This is going to be unpopular among the vocal posters of this thread, but if Cal makes the NCAA Tourney next season

---

LMAO

I would love to take as much money as you'd be willing to put up to teach you a lesson on that awful prognostication.

---

See the word "if". Understand the word "prognostication".

---

I absolutely agree that if we make the tournament next year, we should add a year or two to his contract. He will have earned that opportunity.

When my kids were little, we took them to Tahoe for a little vacation. My daughter says to me that she wants a house in Tahoe with a big balcony overlooking a meadow. I told her that if we ever buy a house in Tahoe I'll make sure it has a big balcony overlooking a meadow.

And in the same way, I tell you now that if we make the tournament next year we will extend him.

Pretty sure that was Jonah's point.

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My prediction:
If we make the NCAA tournament next year we will extend Fox's contract and everyone on this board will be happy and will support that.

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Seems like that should be a safe prediction, and yet, I predict some would not be happy with that scenario.

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I would bet that I will not be proven wrong.

dimitrig said:

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Cal8285 said:

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OaktownBear said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

---

NathanAllen said:

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BeachedBear said:

---

Quick summary of the thread:

• Fire Fox now
• Fire Fox after the tourney
• Replace Fox after next season
• Replace Fox after season Four

I couldn't find anyone suggesting that Fox is the coach of the future and that we should extend his contract. That seems telling to me.

---

This is going to be unpopular among the vocal posters of this thread, but if Cal makes the NCAA Tourney next season

---

LMAO

I would love to take as much money as you'd be willing to put up to teach you a lesson on that awful prognostication.

---

See the word "if". Understand the word "prognostication".

---

I absolutely agree that if we make the tournament next year, we should add a year or two to his contract. He will have earned that opportunity.

When my kids were little, we took them to Tahoe for a little vacation. My daughter says to me that she wants a house in Tahoe with a big balcony overlooking a meadow. I told her that if we ever buy a house in Tahoe I'll make sure it has a big balcony overlooking a meadow.

And in the same way, I tell you now that if we make the tournament next year we will extend him.

Pretty sure that was Jonah's point.

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I'm guessing that Cal's chances of making the tourney next year are better than the chances back when your kids were little that you would ever buy a house in Tahoe.

Call me an optimist, but I'd put the odds against Cal making the tourney next year at around 150-1. Give me 500-1 and I'll put $10 on Cal. From your tone, I'm guessing the chances of you buying a house in Tahoe were more like 1,000,000-1. And I'm sure if you had told your daughter that, she would have said, "So you're sayin' there's a chance!"

Yeah, whether the odds are 150-1 or 1,000,000-1 against, if Fox stuns us all and makes the tourney, yeah, give him that extension. Not sure how Nathan feels about the odds, but I presume he thinks it is a long shot at best.

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I'm going with the house in Tahoe.

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lol, Yeah, me too

Stanford Jonah said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Fwiw, I agree that ncaa tournament is unlikely next year (assuming that was SJ's point and that 'unlikely' is along the lines of the chances of you buying a home in Tahoe). But I don't feel the need to insult Nathan or anyone else for being willing to include it among the range of possibilities for next season, unlikely though it may be.

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Maybe if I didn't have a lifetime of Cal fans having ridiculous pie in the sky hopes for dead coaches walking and amateur website writers blowing smoke up my ass, I might be more gracious.

Cal basketball is going nowhere. There's no reason for people to insult our intelligence and pretend we're going to barely sneak in to the tournament.

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I haven't seen anyone pretending or predicting, etc. that Cal will get into the ncaa tournament next season. But, even if there were some who did, does it really bother you to see some fans express optimism?

My personal best-case scenario:

Start with last year's team as a baseline and assume this year was some inexplicable aberration. Everyone returns except Austin and South.

Celestine plays better than South did. This is not hard for me to imagine.

This year's soph class improve through a less-COVID-impacted off-season and some of the freshies come in ready to contribute. This is of course not guaranteed but I'd say well within the realm of possibility.

Kelly starts the season in great shape and Anticevich becomes a more consistent shooter. Maybe 50-50?

Somebody (Brown, Hyder, Foreman) takes a big leap forward and is able to give us what Austin did. Or we land a grad transfer who plays that well. To me this is the key but not all that likely.

This spring we find a long, mobile big (freshie or immediately-eligible transfer). Again improbable but stranger things have happened, like our women getting a freshie in January who graduated from high school in December.

Should all (or most) of these dreams come true we'd have one star and plenty of solid players. If Fox could get them playing together I'd expect us to be an upper-middle conference team which on a good night could win any conference game. Would that get us to the NCAA Tournament? Dunno.

two players are intriguing because they have potential big upside:

Celestine and 2K

Celestine reminds me of Wallace as a freshmen. Celestine made the most of his opportunities, and showed both an outside shot, and a drive and finish game. He showed confidence and poise, but played within a role. Next year with a regular offseason and preseason, and giving him a more prominent role (after all, he went from injured freshmen to starter in one season), it's possible for him to make a big leap up.

2K just shows flashes of potential. It starts with his length and mobility. Defensively he moves his feet well and his length bothers players. For some reason he got called for a lot of questionable fouls, but if he cleans that up just a little those fouls turn into stops. Offensively he was able to get to the rack and score. His shots were on target but rattled out. With a little more arc those shots drop, so he just needs small adjustments and a lot of reps. If he puts in the work he could make a jump next year and give us more size and athleticism which is something we need more of

Don't know much about the incoming, but expect at least one to be an impact player, at least defensively

I think we need to add at least one transfer. Either a rim protector, shooter or PG

All of this assumes that Matt and Kelly return. They are the rocks.

stu said:

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My personal best-case scenario:

Start with last year's team as a baseline and assume this year was some inexplicable aberration. Everyone returns except Austin and South.

Celestine plays better than South did. This is not hard for me to imagine.

This year's soph class improve through a less-COVID-impacted off-season and some of the freshies come in ready to contribute. This is of course not guaranteed but I'd say well within the realm of possibility.

Kelly starts the season in great shape and Anticevich becomes a more consistent shooter. Maybe 50-50?

Somebody (Brown, Hyder, Foreman) takes a big leap forward and is able to give us what Austin did. Or we land a grad transfer who plays that well. To me this is the key but not all that likely.

This spring we find a long, mobile big (freshie or immediately-eligible transfer). Again improbable but stranger things have happened, like our women getting a freshie in January who graduated from high school in December.

Should all (or most) of these dreams come true we'd have one star and plenty of solid players. If Fox could get them playing together I'd expect us to be an upper-middle conference team which on a good night could win any conference game. Would that get us to the NCAA Tournament? Dunno.

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I agree with much of that, and most importantly with the conclusion that Cal will likely be a mid-level team with a roughly .500 conference record, but maybe not quite an NCAA tournament team. As for whether that would lead to a contract extension for Fox depends, IMO, on the optics of how the team looked, and most importantly what the future looks like in the form of the incoming class and development of the sophomores.

HoopDreams said:

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two players are intriguing because they have potential big upside:

Celestine and 2K

Celestine reminds me of Wallace as a freshmen. Celestine made the most of his opportunities, and showed both an outside shot, and a drive and finish game. He showed confidence and poise, but played within a role. Next year with a regular offseason and preseason, and giving him a more prominent role (after all, he went from injured freshmen to starter in one season), it's possible for him to make a big leap up.

2K just shows flashes of potential. It starts with his length and mobility. Defensively he moves his feet well and his length bothers players. For some reason he got called for a lot of questionable fouls, but if he cleans that up just a little those fouls turn into stops. Offensively he was able to get to the rack and score. His shots were on target but rattled out. With a little more arc those shots drop, so he just needs small adjustments and a lot of reps. If he puts in the work he could make a jump next year and give us more size and athleticism which is something we need more of

Don't know much about the incoming, but expect at least one to be an impact player, at least defensively

I think we need to add at least one transfer. Either a rim protector, shooter or PG

All of this assumes that Matt and Kelly return. They are the rocks.

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As we've discussed, this has been a particularly disappointing season for 2K. It occurs to me that COVID has maybe been especially impactful for his development because what a raw player like him needs above all is just time playing the game, as much as possible. And that's the one thing COVID has most prevented.

Sort of similar for Brown because of his need to learn the PG position. He just needs time doing it (assuming/hoping he has the ability to do it well at all).

I, too, am very excited about seeing those three come into the season full go next year, plus Kelly in shape.

I'm not sure there will be a transfer. For one, it's hard to imagine us getting someone who would come in and be an immediate overall improvement over who we currently have. My guess is we just go with the guys we have now, and play with their strengths while suffering their weaknesses. Plus, I suspect Fox feels a little burned by the disappointing performance of the transfers we've had the last two seasons, and he probably also is looking to shorten the rotation rather than expand it.

drizzlybear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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two players are intriguing because they have potential big upside:

Celestine and 2K

Celestine reminds me of Wallace as a freshmen. Celestine made the most of his opportunities, and showed both an outside shot, and a drive and finish game. He showed confidence and poise, but played within a role. Next year with a regular offseason and preseason, and giving him a more prominent role (after all, he went from injured freshmen to starter in one season), it's possible for him to make a big leap up.

2K just shows flashes of potential. It starts with his length and mobility. Defensively he moves his feet well and his length bothers players. For some reason he got called for a lot of questionable fouls, but if he cleans that up just a little those fouls turn into stops. Offensively he was able to get to the rack and score. His shots were on target but rattled out. With a little more arc those shots drop, so he just needs small adjustments and a lot of reps. If he puts in the work he could make a jump next year and give us more size and athleticism which is something we need more of

Don't know much about the incoming, but expect at least one to be an impact player, at least defensively

I think we need to add at least one transfer. Either a rim protector, shooter or PG

All of this assumes that Matt and Kelly return. They are the rocks.

---

As we've discussed, this has been a particularly disappointing season for 2K. It occurs to me that COVID has maybe been especially impactful for his development because what a raw player like him needs above all is just time playing the game, as much as possible. And that's the one thing COVID has most prevented.

Sort of similar for Brown because of his need to learn the PG position. He just needs time doing it (assuming/hoping he has the ability to do it well at all).

I, too, am very excited about seeing those three come into the season full go next year, plus Kelly in shape.

I'm not sure there will be a transfer. For one, it's hard to imagine us getting someone who would come in and be an immediate overall improvement over who we currently have. My guess is we just go with the guys we have now, and play with their strengths while suffering their weaknesses. Plus, I suspect Fox feels a little burned by the disappointing performance of the transfers we've had the last two seasons, and he probably also is looking to shorten the rotation rather than expand it.

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I'm not sure he thinks he's been "burned" by transfers. He has played Betley more minutes than anyone else. He invited Foreman to come back. South got major minutes last year. The guys riding the bench are his own high school recruits (other than Celestine and maybe Lars). My guess is he will bring in the best player he can to fill immediate needs and for the third year in a row that is likely to be a transfer. It is not an unreasonable strategy given that the best HS recruits he can get at this point are the guys he is already bringing in. It is a win now strategy. He needs to get the program winning in order to recruit better and if he does he will want to have the scholarships available.

Cal fans right now: I'd cut off a finger for EWU record and making the tourney.

Cal fans when we made the tourney somewhat regularly: Our inability to make the sweet sixteen is unacceptable for a P5 school.

Just a note on post-COVID improvement: Every program will be counting on the same jump from young players who didn't get the full development process. Maybe Cal had it a little worse than some, but had it better than others. All in all, I don't think that will be an advantage or disadvantage either way ...

We need Bradley to stay. His decision to stay or move on will tell us something about Fox.

Go Beavs! Beat the ducks!

50+BigGames said:

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We need Bradley to stay. His decision to stay or move on will tell us something about Fox.

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If he stays it probably tells us more about Bradley, just like it did 2 years ago.

calumnus said:

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50+BigGames said:

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We need Bradley to stay. His decision to stay or move on will tell us something about Fox.

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If he stays it probably tells us more about Bradley, just like it did 2 years ago.

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2 years ago Bradley knew Cal but he didn't know Fox.

stu said:

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calumnus said:

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50+BigGames said:

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We need Bradley to stay. His decision to stay or move on will tell us something about Fox.

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If he stays it probably tells us more about Bradley, just like it did 2 years ago.

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2 years ago Bradley knew Cal but he didn't know Fox.

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He met him.

If you listen to the Gates interview he talks about his approach when he was the new coach at Cleveland State and the overwhelming need to respect the players. Fox did the opposite.

Several players left. Bradley didn't. He is clearly self-driven. I am sure Fox will be a factor in his decision but my guess is he will he less a factor than for other players. Bradley is the featured player on a team in a power conference and getting a great education. Going to a better team where his role is less certain would be risky and would not likely increase his professional prospects. My impression is things would have to be really bad with Fox for him to leave Cal as a transfer. Now if he tests the water and an NBA team shows interest....maybe. However, that again would not be about Fox.

I guess we would not be a 16 seed even if we got in. Play in game for sure.

Well & good SF; but Montgomery, with all of the good & bad, Great & NS-Great success....WAS NEVER FIRED* !
THAT alone is a remarkable achievement setting Montgomery apart from any & all peers.
*gotta discount the NBA Warriors of that era.

With or without an ace recruiter the head coach has to close the deal.

Stanford Jonah said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Fwiw, I agree that ncaa tournament is unlikely next year (assuming that was SJ's point and that 'unlikely' is along the lines of the chances of you buying a home in Tahoe). But I don't feel the need to insult Nathan or anyone else for being willing to include it among the range of possibilities for next season, unlikely though it may be.

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Maybe if I didn't have a lifetime of Cal fans having ridiculous pie in the sky hopes for dead coaches walking and amateur website writers blowing smoke up my ass, I might be more gracious.

Cal basketball is going nowhere. There's no reason for people to insult our intelligence and pretend we're going to barely sneak in to the tournament.

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I'll second this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's tourney or bust for 21-22. I can understand why firing Fox after this season might be premature (only because of the COVID situation, that's it - any other year and he should be fired). But next year better see some real improvement.

Tourney or bust.

And I don't believe in him, so I'm predicting bust. But I sincerely hope I'm wrong and the team does well next season, for the program's sake.

BeachedBear said:

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I think Fox needs to add an ace recruiter to his staff ASAP. Talent seems to be the biggest flaw in the program and that seems like a relatively effective fix without having to replace the entire staff and start over from scratch and deal with buy outs.

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If this were such an easy fix, Fox would have done this already. Ace recruiters don't grow on trees, and they sure as heck aren't lining up to join the Cal staff.

Stanford Jonah said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Fwiw, I agree that ncaa tournament is unlikely next year (assuming that was SJ's point and that 'unlikely' is along the lines of the chances of you buying a home in Tahoe). But I don't feel the need to insult Nathan or anyone else for being willing to include it among the range of possibilities for next season, unlikely though it may be.

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Maybe if I didn't have a lifetime of Cal fans having ridiculous pie in the sky hopes for dead coaches walking and amateur website writers blowing smoke up my ass, I might be more gracious.

Cal basketball is going nowhere. There's no reason for people to insult our intelligence and pretend we're going to barely sneak in to the tournament.

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I understand your rationale but I would not want you to give a pre-game pep talk to the basketball team!

NathanAllen said:

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socaltownie said:

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If we make the tournament I will be so happy I will buy a place in tahoe overlooking a meadow and invite a bunch of BI'ers up to watch the first game.

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I'm making note of this.

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DO!! It might be a fractional ownership deal but I WILL do it ;-)

Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

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During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.