Reading the Missouri boards. A lot of them don't like him and are talking about buyout options

Much love for Conzo on this board. Bring him back for $6,000,000.00 per year.

Praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition.

My guess is that they give Martin one more year, but there is no doubt that Missouri fans are underwhelmed. They paid a fortune to get him and he has only had one season (his first) in which the team had a winning record in conference. He has not made it past the first round of the tournament at Missouri. This is not what they were expecting when they gave him a sweetheart deal.

Never was overly impressed by Cuonzo's coaching. I knew I wasn't crazy.

There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

bearister said:

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There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

---

How about:

3. He was able to dedicate himself totally to basketball without worrying about school, and was being paid millions of dollars to focus on that improvement, and had the vast resources of an NBA team to help him along?

Cuonzo had Jaylen for less than 1 year; Jaylen has had now had almost 5 years since Cal to improve on his game. In his first year in the NBA, Jaylen (while better than at Cal) averaged 6.6 points per game. I'm curious why incredible coach Brad Stevens also didn't seem to be able to get much out of Jaylen in his first year in the league?

While everyone here likes to dump on Cuonzo, in his 2015-16 season, while dealing with extended absences from two of our most important players during the season, led the bears to:

1. undefeated home season
2. #4 seed in the tournament, our highest seeding since the tournament went to 64 teams.

And yes, we lost our first tournament game when we lost those same two important players 2 days before the game and we didn't have the depth to overcome that. And yes, when Cuonzo left our cupboard was a bit bare, and he got into fights with the athletic department about who he could recruit. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a pretty spectacular year (and that he took over a Missouri team that won 9, 10, and 8 games the previous three seasons and has made the tournament twice in his first four years there). He is most certainly not a bad coach.

Fyght4Cal said:

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Never was overly impressed by Cuonzo's coaching. I knew I wasn't crazy.

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Ken Pom has Missouri as the #47 team, #49 in offense and #57 in defense. Not bad, but not good enough. Basically a Tournament team, but a one and done team.

Sagarin has them as #51 in Predictor and #85 in Recent. They got worse over the course of the season.

CalLifer said:

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bearister said:

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There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

---

How about:

3. He was able to dedicate himself totally to basketball without worrying about school, and was being paid millions of dollars to focus on that improvement, and had the vast resources of an NBA team to help him along?

Cuonzo had Jaylen for less than 1 year; Jaylen has had now had almost 5 years since Cal to improve on his game. In his first year in the NBA, Jaylen (while better than at Cal) averaged 6.6 points per game. I'm curious why incredible coach Brad Stevens also didn't seem to be able to get much out of Jaylen in his first year in the league?

While everyone here likes to dump on Cuonzo, in his 2015-16 season, while dealing with extended absences from two of our most important players during the season, led the bears to:

1. undefeated home season
2. #4 seed in the tournament, our highest seeding since the tournament went to 64 teams.

And yes, we lost our first tournament game when we lost those same two important players 2 days before the game and we didn't have the depth to overcome that. And yes, when Cuonzo left our cupboard was a bit bare, and he got into fights with the athletic department about who he could recruit. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a pretty spectacular year (and that he took over a Missouri team that won 9, 10, and 8 games the previous three seasons and has made the tournament twice in his first four years there). He is most certainly not a bad coach.

---

I think almost as much as we missed Monty's offense, we missed Justin Cobbs running it. Wallace and Singer (and Chauca) each had their issues as PGs. That team with Jaylen had weapons: three McDonald's All Americans plus Wallace and Mathews but they either needed a Monty structured offense or they needed a facilitator. Wallace never really developed the vision/instincts for PG. Singer was the opposite he wouldn't shoot even if left open. At the time many thought Jaylen might be a solution at PG.

The team was #28 in Ken Pom, #53 in offense, #19 in defense, which was typical Martin but a shame given all those weapons.

Jaylen also had trouble adjusting to PAC-12 refereeing. He lead the team in PFs and TOS, seemingly most of them on what would be scoring drives in the NBA.

I concede many of your points, however, continually allowing Jaylen to dribble in a straight line down the center of the key, knocking defenders down like bowling pins, was absolutely on the coaching staff. By the end of the season Jaylen spent large chunks of time on the bench because of charging fouls.
The coaching staff also mishandled Ivan Rabb. Rabb cost himself millions hanging around an extra year in that system. His draft stock crashed after his second season.

bearister said:

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I concede many of your points, however, continually allowing Jaylen to dribble in a straight line down the center of the key, knocking defenders down like bowling pins, was absolutely on the coaching staff. By the end of the season Jaylen spent large chunks of time on the bench because of charging fouls.
The coaching staff also mishandled Ivan Rabb. Rabb cost himself millions hanging around an extra year in that system. His draft stock crashed after his second season.

---

Yes, as ridiculous as the PAC-12 refereeing was/is you just have to adjust to it. Not doing so is a failure of the coaching staff.

Opposing ncaa players would jump in front of Jaylen Brown and refs would call a charge. It was asinine.

calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

---

bearister said:

---

There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

---

How about:

3. He was able to dedicate himself totally to basketball without worrying about school, and was being paid millions of dollars to focus on that improvement, and had the vast resources of an NBA team to help him along?

Cuonzo had Jaylen for less than 1 year; Jaylen has had now had almost 5 years since Cal to improve on his game. In his first year in the NBA, Jaylen (while better than at Cal) averaged 6.6 points per game. I'm curious why incredible coach Brad Stevens also didn't seem to be able to get much out of Jaylen in his first year in the league?

While everyone here likes to dump on Cuonzo, in his 2015-16 season, while dealing with extended absences from two of our most important players during the season, led the bears to:

1. undefeated home season
2. #4 seed in the tournament, our highest seeding since the tournament went to 64 teams.

And yes, we lost our first tournament game when we lost those same two important players 2 days before the game and we didn't have the depth to overcome that. And yes, when Cuonzo left our cupboard was a bit bare, and he got into fights with the athletic department about who he could recruit. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a pretty spectacular year (and that he took over a Missouri team that won 9, 10, and 8 games the previous three seasons and has made the tournament twice in his first four years there). He is most certainly not a bad coach.

---

I think almost as much as we missed Monty's offense, we missed Justin Cobbs running it. Wallace and Singer (and Chauca) each had their issues as PGs. That team with Jaylen had weapons: three McDonald's All Americans plus Wallace and Mathews but they either needed a Monty structured offense or they needed a facilitator. Wallace never really developed the vision/instincts for PG. Singer was the opposite he wouldn't shoot even if left open. At the time many thought Jaylen might be a solution at PG.

The team was #28 in Ken Pom, #53 in offense, #19 in defense, which was typical Martin but a shame given all those weapons.

Jaylen also had trouble adjusting to PAC-12 refereeing. He lead the team in PFs and TOS, seemingly most of them on what would be scoring drives in the NBA.

---

I guess I'm just looking at those numbers (#28 overall, top 60 on one side, and top 20 on the other) and wondering how (1) people can dump on Martin (even to the extent you do in the next phrase), and (2) what their expectations are at a place like Cal (with it's limited success). I don't subscribe to kenpom, but I'm curious as to how many times since Braun took over (96-97 season) has Cal come anywhere close to hitting all those numbers in one year. And that was in Cuonzo's second year, with two freshman playing huge roles, and a team that, while talented, had parts that didn't necessarily fit well together (and yes, that's Cuonzo's responsibility, but as a coach in his second year taking over for a coach who hated recruiting, I think the imperfections of the roster were a little understandable). We really only had two players who could shoot well from 3 (Matthews and Bird, and Bird missed a chunk of the season), and my recollection is that the Rabb at center lineups got killed on defense so we couldn't use that consistently. Brown's biggest asset was his athleticism, but his skills were not as developed, but we needed his atleticism on the court. We needed Wallace to be the PG, so that meant that we couldn't consistently play Matthews and Bird at the same time. And again, it was only one year where we had all those guys, and Wallace and Bird missed time in the middle of the season, so it wasn't like these guys had a huge chance to gel.

Yes, the season wasn't as good as we would have liked, but (1) the only reason Rabb and Brown were here was b/c Cuonzo, and (2) I still look at those Kenpom numbers and despair that we are ever getting close to there again.

HoopDreams said:

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I was and still am a big Martin fan

like all coaches, there were things I liked, and things I didn't like

Agree, Brown, Rabb, Swanigan, Moore and Collins are all good recruits that we should be recruiting. My understanding was Swanigan wanted to sign with Cal, but his guardian steered him away.

When I referred to swing and miss ... I was talking about highly rated basketball players that were risks for either academics or character ... I was talking about Dillard, Coleman and yes, Jolly was another one that we never should have recruited. All of these players transferred and/or flamed out, or got in trouble

Yet he passed on top 150 PG Jordan Ford who wanted to come to Cal

---

Agreed that Martin is not a perfect coach, and I wasn't trying to respond to you specifically. I agree that he ran into issues with the admin over who he was recruiting, but I do think that if we could have gotten him to stay (or if he had been interested in staying), he could have found the right sweet spot of players to recruit.

I also cut him a little slack on that, as it's clear that it was a weird hiring process (where Dirks went over the head of Barbour to hire him, and then Dirks flamed out and left and Barbour moved on and we ended up with an AD with zero experience). So the whole experience was probably one that helped him make the decision to move on.

CalLifer said:

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HoopDreams said:

---

I was and still am a big Martin fan

like all coaches, there were things I liked, and things I didn't like

Agree, Brown, Rabb, Swanigan, Moore and Collins are all good recruits that we should be recruiting. My understanding was Swanigan wanted to sign with Cal, but his guardian steered him away.

When I referred to swing and miss ... I was talking about highly rated basketball players that were risks for either academics or character ... I was talking about Dillard, Coleman and yes, Jolly was another one that we never should have recruited. All of these players transferred and/or flamed out, or got in trouble

Yet he passed on top 150 PG Jordan Ford who wanted to come to Cal

---

Agreed that Martin is not a perfect coach, and I wasn't trying to respond to you specifically. I agree that he ran into issues with the admin over who he was recruiting, but I do think that if we could have gotten him to stay (or if he had been interested in staying), he could have found the right sweet spot of players to recruit.

---

agree with you. I was really disappointed when he left Cal

HoopDreams said:

---

I was and still am a big Martin fan

like all coaches, there were things I liked, and things I didn't like

Agree, Brown, Rabb, Swanigan, Moore and Collins are all good recruits that we should be recruiting. My understanding was Swanigan wanted to sign with Cal, but his guardian steered him away.

When I referred to swing and miss ... I was talking about highly rated basketball players that were risks for either academics or character ... I was talking about Dillard, Coleman and yes, Jolly was another one that we never should have recruited. All of these players transferred and/or flamed out, or got in trouble

Yet he passed on top 150 PG Jordan Ford who wanted to come to Cal

---

Who is Swanigan?

Gobears49 said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

I was and still am a big Martin fan

like all coaches, there were things I liked, and things I didn't like

Agree, Brown, Rabb, Swanigan, Moore and Collins are all good recruits that we should be recruiting. My understanding was Swanigan wanted to sign with Cal, but his guardian steered him away.

When I referred to swing and miss ... I was talking about highly rated basketball players that were risks for either academics or character ... I was talking about Dillard, Coleman and yes, Jolly was another one that we never should have recruited. All of these players transferred and/or flamed out, or got in trouble

Yet he passed on top 150 PG Jordan Ford who wanted to come to Cal

---

Who is Swanigan?

---

NathanAllen said:

---

I'm 99% sure I'm closer to the Mizzou fanbase and have more knowledge of how the university/athletics department works than anyone else on this board and can confidently say Martin's seat is not hot at Mizzou. Obviously, anything can happen in college hoops, but Martin won't be leaving Missouri anytime within the next year. His contract doesn't even allow him to be fired until April of next season.

What you're referring to is nothing more than angry message board posters (albeit, a growing number). But those fans are largely delusional about Missouri's place in the college hoops pecking order. The truth is, Mizzou's program was close to Cal bad after Martin left and he's taken them to the NCAA Tournament twice in four years. That's not going to get him fired at a place like Mizzou, even if he hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game yet.

The other thing is, the current AD is the one who hired Martin. He's not going to fire him unless he gets some real pressure from boosters/more powerful people than internet posters. That's not happening right now.

---

Cuonzo hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since he went to the Sweet 16 with Tennessee in 2014. Lots of hype.

bearister said:

---

There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

---

Better than never having Brown at all...

BeachedBear said:

---

Looking back, I think Cuonzo had the best chance to succeed at Cal than any other coach in recent Cal memory.

IMHO, he was a good rep of the entire CalmBBall community and his teams generally played with heart and enthusiasm. I only had three issues with CM, which were more easily addressable than other coaches:

1. Recruiting. As mentioned elsewhere, he was still finding the sweet spot for Cal recruiting. I think he would have probably mastered it, given a couple seasons and better support than he got from Williams/Ath Dept. Probably to the level that Bozeman was recruiting (presumably legit, however). That would have been superior to Braun, Monty or anyone else in Cal history.

2. Xs & Os. Defense great, Offense Meh. Personally, I think this was mostly a factor of how he split practice time between D and O, but one wizzy assistant (or some consulting from Monty) could probably have solved the offensive simplicity of his teams.

3. The final game. That was an embarrassment that I am still bitter about. But time has mellowed it a bit and I realize it probably had more to do with Williams and the University/Athletic Dept and how they related to CM. Related to #1, above - I think a functional AD probably would not have sunk to this level of dysfunction. I doubt we could have matched the $$$ and retained him when Mizzou came calling - but the split would likely have been much more amicable.

---

Agree, the NIT game was a terrible way to leave, but worse was Cal not admitting their son

I'm not talking about a poor student or a character issue. He deserved to be admitted on his own merit

HoopDreams said:

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BeachedBear said:

---

Looking back, I think Cuonzo had the best chance to succeed at Cal than any other coach in recent Cal memory.

IMHO, he was a good rep of the entire CalmBBall community and his teams generally played with heart and enthusiasm. I only had three issues with CM, which were more easily addressable than other coaches:

1. Recruiting. As mentioned elsewhere, he was still finding the sweet spot for Cal recruiting. I think he would have probably mastered it, given a couple seasons and better support than he got from Williams/Ath Dept. Probably to the level that Bozeman was recruiting (presumably legit, however). That would have been superior to Braun, Monty or anyone else in Cal history.

2. Xs & Os. Defense great, Offense Meh. Personally, I think this was mostly a factor of how he split practice time between D and O, but one wizzy assistant (or some consulting from Monty) could probably have solved the offensive simplicity of his teams.

3. The final game. That was an embarrassment that I am still bitter about. But time has mellowed it a bit and I realize it probably had more to do with Williams and the University/Athletic Dept and how they related to CM. Related to #1, above - I think a functional AD probably would not have sunk to this level of dysfunction. I doubt we could have matched the $$$ and retained him when Mizzou came calling - but the split would likely have been much more amicable.

---

Agree, the NIT game was a terrible way to leave, but worse was Cal not admitting their son

I'm not talking about a poor student or a character issue. He deserved to be admitted on his own merit

---

Wait... Cal didn't admit Martin's son? While he was coaching here? Is that true?

CalLifer said:

---

bearister said:

---

There can only be two responses by Coach Martin to the question of why Jaylen Brown improved 500% after he left Cal:

1. "I have absolutely no obligation as a coach to improve the games of my players....that is entirely on them; or

2. "I didn't know how to coach him up."

---

How about:

3. He was able to dedicate himself totally to basketball without worrying about school, and was being paid millions of dollars to focus on that improvement, and had the vast resources of an NBA team to help him along?

Cuonzo had Jaylen for less than 1 year; Jaylen has had now had almost 5 years since Cal to improve on his game. In his first year in the NBA, Jaylen (while better than at Cal) averaged 6.6 points per game. I'm curious why incredible coach Brad Stevens also didn't seem to be able to get much out of Jaylen in his first year in the league?

While everyone here likes to dump on Cuonzo, in his 2015-16 season, while dealing with extended absences from two of our most important players during the season, led the bears to:

1. undefeated home season
2. #4 seed in the tournament, our highest seeding since the tournament went to 64 teams.

And yes, we lost our first tournament game when we lost those same two important players 2 days before the game and we didn't have the depth to overcome that. And yes, when Cuonzo left our cupboard was a bit bare, and he got into fights with the athletic department about who he could recruit. But that doesn't change the fact that he had a pretty spectacular year (and that he took over a Missouri team that won 9, 10, and 8 games the previous three seasons and has made the tournament twice in his first four years there). He is most certainly not a bad coach.

---

I think all of what you're saying is accurate except the last sentence. He's a good recruiter, seems like a motivator, but his game coaching, offensive scheming, and player development were not at all good here. Still, talent wins and he got talent.

Yeah and Cal does not necessarily admit the children of faculty either even excellent students with outstanding grades and test scores.

I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

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I will never understand why people think not giving unfair advantages to applicants based on who their parents are is an outrage.

PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

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Highly credible source HoopDreams says the kid was qualified. What evidence do you have that he wasn't?

Fyght4Cal said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

---

Highly credible source HoopDreams says the kid was qualified. What evidence do you have that he wasn't?

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I can't tell if this is a serious question or you're joking. Obviously, the Berkeley admissions committee determined that the kid wasn't qualified. And unless HoopDreams serves on that committee and reviewed the junior Martin's transcripts, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, volunteer work, application essays, and other application criteria, I don't see how he would determine, against the decision of the rest of the committee, that the kid was qualified.

PtownBear1 said:

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Fyght4Cal said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

---

Highly credible source HoopDreams says the kid was qualified. What evidence do you have that he wasn't?

---

I can't tell if this is a serious question or you're joking. Obviously, the Berkeley admissions committee determined that the kid wasn't qualified. And unless HoopDreams serves on that committee and reviewed the junior Martin's transcripts, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, volunteer work, application essays, and other application criteria, I don't see how he would determine, against the decision of the rest of the committee, that the kid was qualified.

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Qualified probably means that he merely met the minimum criteria for acceptance to UC.

Where did he end up going?