1972 Finals

1,534 Views | 4 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by concordtom
concordtom
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I'm watching a full game recording of Game 5 Knicks vs Lakers at the Forum in LA.
My God, this is awful basketball. There are about 6 HOF'ers in this game and yet I think ANY NBA team today could beat these guys if they put the best players from BOTH teams onto 1.

Chamberlain is huge but he mostly just stands there waving the ball around in the post.
Jerry West dribbles with only his right hand while Gail Goodrich does the same with his left.
NY has forwards Jerry Lucas, Dave Debushere and Senator Bill Bradley Would they be starters today?
Earl the Pearl Monroe and Walt Clyde Frazier won't shoot unless it's at the FT line or closer.

Everyone is packed into the lane, moving slowly, putting up bricks like we used to do in HS.

The 3 point line and long range shooters have completely transformed the game. Slashing lanes have opened up. Guys move around in a wider arc to set the offense with screens and cuts.

These old timers would get run off the floor with no clue what to do in today's game.
Meanwhile, today's defenders would be able to pack in a rest on defense.

The game is in good hands.
concordtom
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concordtom
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concordtom
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In the 3rd period, Lakers' McMillan made a dribble behind the back and the crowd s got all excited - so did announcer Keith Jackson.
Like, that was a novelty!

Also, these refs suck. On one fast break, the refs positioning was right down the middle of the court, and the fast break players nearly ran him over as he sprinted to get out of the way. And that's to say nothing of many of the odd ball calls.

Here comes Chamberlain to the FT line. Career 50 percenter. Let's see how brick-able he is.

3 to make 2, and he did make 2 of 3 - from 17.5 feet away!

Then an offensive basket interference wasn't called until the Lakers were down at the other end, ball in the post, and the PA announcer says, "No Basket". Everyone on the court stopped the action, like, "huh???" I'm still not sure if they actually counted it or not.

Bill Russel is on the mic with Keith Jackson.
SFCityBear
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Dear Tom,

I have to feel sorry for you when the only one who replies to your post is yourself.

I debated about giving it one more try to convince you that players of old can't be compared with modern players, because they played in different games with different rules.

So I'll play the fool once more by allowing myself to get trolled by you. You say the old players play "awful basketball", while older players say about the modern game that "It's not basketball." The two games are as different as night and day.

Before I start, have you ever wondered why, of the three major American sports, old basketball players and their game are often ridiculed for not being athletic, and their records scoffed at by some younger folks such as yourself?

Young baseball fans seldom disparage the careers of older teams and players. Teams like the old Yankees, and players like Willie Mays or Joe DiMaggio are still widely revered today.

Young football fans still respect the old teams and old players for what they did. Football began as a running game. Players tackled with their arms and hands. Few passes were thrown. The game changed to where players tackled with their shoulders, and there were a lot of shoulder separation injuries, which led to bigger shoulder pads. Players began passing more and tackling with their helmets, and all the concussion injuries led to the modern game of going back to tackling with arms, hands, and fingers. Yet through all the changes, each generation of young fans continued to respect the accomplishments of the teams and players that went before.

Basketball fans not so much. Basketball in its early days had difficulty drawing fans and selling tickets, especially in the NBA. The game had trouble being entertaining, and NBA franchises folded or came close to it. The early games were low scoring, and defense was allowed to be pretty rough, with few fouls and no free throws. Rules were changed to allow for easier ball handling and more scoring and restrict defenders from interfering with the offensive player. The game began to be dominated by taller and taller players, and little guys, no matter how quick or deceptive they were, were pushed out of the game. The long distance shot was the lowest percentage shot on the floor, but then the rules changed to make it worth 3 points, and the game changed again, as all players rushed to learn the shot, to where now it dominates the game.

I personally feel that the old-time Harlem Globetrotters were much more fun to watch than the NBA teams of that era, because the Trotters played with almost no rules, which gave them the freedom to show off their athleticism with no restrictions. They palmed the ball, they carried the ball, and they traveled with the ball, on almost every play. Their games resembled the modern NBA much more than the NBA of their era. They were fabulous dribblers. I remember attending Hank Luisetti's Examiner Basketball School, and together with maybe 25 other kids, chasing the Globetrotter's Leon Hillard dribbling all around the gym, and not one of us could get a hand on the ball. When I watch the NBA today, there are so many players who palm the ball, carry it, and walk with it on every play. In the old college game, players had to dribble by placing their hand only on top of the ball. Today's players are allowed to put their hand on the sides of the ball, and even on the bottom of the ball. Today's crossover dribble would have been a turnover in 1970. Kevin Durant's putting his hand under the ball as he dribbled and carrying it would have been a turnover in 1970. Today's Eurostep would have been a traveling violation in 1970. I watched a Warrior game recently where a guard took FOUR steps from the three-point line without a dribble to score a layup in the final seconds, and a traveling violation was not called.

The rules of the modern game severely restrict what defenses can do. Defenders can't use their hands, while dribbler can use his off hand to push or hit a defender on the drive, with no foul called. A defender can't stand between his man and the basket inside an arbitrary semicircle near the hoop. Old-time defense was man to man with an occasional double team. Zones were introduced for teams which did not have good man defenders. The modern game has Help Defense. This results in a player no longer being able to get in their best position to stay in front of their man, the crouch, but instead needing to stand up, so he can quickly leave his man to help out a teammate. More recently, we now have Help Defense even in zone defenses. So not only are players not learning to be good man on man defenders, but now they are not learning how to be good zone defenders as well.

Finally, when comparing the players of different generations, the modern players are injured much more frequently and with more severe injuries than the players of old. Injuries cost Cal a probable nice run in the NCAA in 2016. Jaylen Brown is now out for the remainder of the NBA season with a torn ligament in his hand. Players today have put on too much bulk and muscle for the strength of their frames, and to make things worse, they try to play at 110% of their capability, and they get hurt all the time. John Havlicek of the old Celtics said he tried to play at 85% of his capability most of the game. Today, every team, college or pro, always seems to have several players injured and unable to play on any given night. This isn't limited to basketball. Back when Willie Mays was playing baseball, players played every day. There was no disabled list, while today, MLB has several disabled lists for injured players, depending on how long a player is predicted to take to recover. In the 1960s, basketball fans were assured that when they bought a ticket to a game, that they would see all their favorite players just about every game. Not so today.

SFCB

PS: Your idea of a fantasy game between the modern players against the old-timers would be unplayable, and all the fans would leave during the first half. If you played the game by today's rules, with today's referees, the old timers would be called for a lot of turnovers and a ton of fouls. If you played the game with the old rules, and the old-time players, the modern players would be called for a ton of turnovers and a lot of fouls.


SFCityBear
concordtom
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SFCityBear said:

Dear Tom,

I have to feel sorry for you when the only one who replies to your post is yourself.

I debated about giving it one more try to convince you that players of old can't be compared with modern players, because they played in different games with different rules.

So I'll play the fool once more by allowing myself to get trolled by you. You say the old players play "awful basketball", while older players say about the modern game that "It's not basketball." The two games are as different as night and day.




SFCB:

I'm not going to TROLL you! Perhaps you are forgetting how I tried to convince you to stay and continue posting on BI years ago when you said on multiple occasions that it was a waste of your time. That was because I valued your posts.

I will, however, disagree with you on some points:
Quote:

Before I start, have you ever wondered why, of the three major American sports, old basketball players and their game are often ridiculed for not being athletic, and their records scoffed at by some younger folks such as yourself?

Young baseball fans seldom disparage the careers of older teams and players. Teams like the old Yankees, and players like Willie Mays or Joe DiMaggio are still widely revered today.

Young football fans still respect the old teams and old players for what they did. Football began as a running game. Players tackled with their arms and hands. Few passes were thrown. The game changed to where players tackled with their shoulders, and there were a lot of shoulder separation injuries, which led to bigger shoulder pads. Players began passing more and tackling with their helmets, and all the concussion injuries led to the modern game of going back to tackling with arms, hands, and fingers. Yet through all the changes, each generation of young fans continued to respect the accomplishments of the teams and players that went before.


I'll agree with you on baseball. The bat is still wood. The mound is still however many feet away. And the ball is more or less the same (though reports said it changed during the homerun era of McGwire, Sosa, Bonds - not to mention steroids. However, football? No way! Today's players would absolutely obliterate those of old, save for some sheer talent like Gale Sayers. I have a great uncle who was a star at Ohio State and he weighed maybe a buck sixty. Or, look at the average weight of the Niners first super bowl team - way lighter than today's beasts.


Quote:

Basketball fans not so much. Basketball in its early days had difficulty drawing fans and selling tickets, especially in the NBA. The game had trouble being entertaining, and NBA franchises folded or came close to it. The early games were low scoring, and defense was allowed to be pretty rough, with few fouls and no free throws. Rules were changed to allow for easier ball handling and more scoring and restrict defenders from interfering with the offensive player. The game began to be dominated by taller and taller players, and little guys, no matter how quick or deceptive they were, were pushed out of the game. The long distance shot was the lowest percentage shot on the floor, but then the rules changed to make it worth 3 points, and the game changed again, as all players rushed to learn the shot, to where now it dominates the game.

I personally feel that the old-time Harlem Globetrotters were much more fun to watch than the NBA teams of that era, because the Trotters played with almost no rules, which gave them the freedom to show off their athleticism with no restrictions. They palmed the ball, they carried the ball, and they traveled with the ball, on almost every play. Their games resembled the modern NBA much more than the NBA of their era. They were fabulous dribblers. I remember attending Hank Luisetti's Examiner Basketball School, and together with maybe 25 other kids, chasing the Globetrotter's Leon Hillard dribbling all around the gym, and not one of us could get a hand on the ball. When I watch the NBA today, there are so many players who palm the ball, carry it, and walk with it on every play. In the old college game, players had to dribble by placing their hand only on top of the ball. Today's players are allowed to put their hand on the sides of the ball, and even on the bottom of the ball. Today's crossover dribble would have been a turnover in 1970. Kevin Durant's putting his hand under the ball as he dribbled and carrying it would have been a turnover in 1970. Today's Eurostep would have been a traveling violation in 1970. I watched a Warrior game recently where a guard took FOUR steps from the three-point line without a dribble to score a layup in the final seconds, and a traveling violation was not called.


Yeah, I agree with you here on the dribbling rules, and on the traveling rules. That's been a big change over time!


Quote:

The rules of the modern game severely restrict what defenses can do. Defenders can't use their hands, while dribbler can use his off hand to push or hit a defender on the drive, with no foul called. A defender can't stand between his man and the basket inside an arbitrary semicircle near the hoop. Old-time defense was man to man with an occasional double team. Zones were introduced for teams which did not have good man defenders. The modern game has Help Defense. This results in a player no longer being able to get in their best position to stay in front of their man, the crouch, but instead needing to stand up, so he can quickly leave his man to help out a teammate. More recently, we now have Help Defense even in zone defenses. So not only are players not learning to be good man on man defenders, but now they are not learning how to be good zone defenders as well.


I don't have much opinion on the roughness of play, though I can say the old defenses I've seen in videos of Oscar Robertson were light, while the Patrick Ewing Era (or should I call it the Pistons Bad Boys Era) was criminal!

Today, they've made it a foul to arm check your player, and offensive players get away with push offs.
I'll call it a wash and suggest to you that athletes of either era would be able to adjust to whatever the rules are. I think the dribbling and traveling things, however, would be way harder to adjust to, as it become muscles memory - hard to alter that easily. Kind of like reconstructing a jumpshot (see: Lonzo Ball).




Quote:

Finally, when comparing the players of different generations, the modern players are injured much more frequently and with more severe injuries than the players of old. Injuries cost Cal a probable nice run in the NCAA in 2016. Jaylen Brown is now out for the remainder of the NBA season with a torn ligament in his hand. Players today have put on too much bulk and muscle for the strength of their frames, and to make things worse, they try to play at 110% of their capability, and they get hurt all the time. John Havlicek of the old Celtics said he tried to play at 85% of his capability most of the game. Today, every team, college or pro, always seems to have several players injured and unable to play on any given night. This isn't limited to basketball. Back when Willie Mays was playing baseball, players played every day. There was no disabled list, while today, MLB has several disabled lists for injured players, depending on how long a player is predicted to take to recover. In the 1960s, basketball fans were assured that when they bought a ticket to a game, that they would see all their favorite players just about every game. Not so today.


I would think you help make my point - this is an advantage to today's players. They get injured more because they play harder. That means in a 7 game series, they'd blow past the old-timers (in their primes) who weren't used to playing at 110% of their capability. I think you said it best in favor of the newbies.



Quote:

PS: Your idea of a fantasy game between the modern players against the old-timers would be unplayable, and all the fans would leave during the first half. If you played the game by today's rules, with today's referees, the old timers would be called for a lot of turnovers and a ton of fouls. If you played the game with the old rules, and the old-time players, the modern players would be called for a ton of turnovers and a lot of fouls.

In my fantasy realm, players would have a bit of time to adjust to how the refs were calling the game re fouls, and the 3 point shot. Even if you wanted to go back and play under rules of yesteryear, I still think today's all-stars would annihilate yesterday's - mainly because it's a WAY more competitive field these days, and players are training longer and harder than ever before.

Not only do we have nearly DOUBLE the # of people possibly playing the game(s), but the soaring salaries has created a HUGE incentive for kids to try and make this their livelihood. So, bigger pool + bigger incentives to excel in the pool = far greater ability.

There would be NO CONTEST. I think it's probably that way in all sports for the same reasons. We are a sports obsessed culture.



"The economics of pro basketball exploded in the 1970s. The average player salary rose from $35,000 in 1970 to $180,000 a decade later and franchise values went up more than 600% in the same period. The major cause of the skyrocketing salaries was the competition between the NBA and the ABA for star players. The ABA opened a new front in this war with the signing of Spencer Haywood, the 19 year old star of the 1968 U.S. Olympic gold medalists..."

35,000?
180,000?
Yo - today The minimum salary for players in the NBA amounted to just over 925,000 in the 2021 season.
If I go to an inflation calculator online:
  • $35,000 in 1970 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $240,899.23 today
  • $180,000 in 1980 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $583,370.39 today

So, today the MINIMUM is 1.6x the AVERAGE of 1980. God forbid I go and look at what those numbers were in 1960.

Therefore, there are MULTITUDES MORE kids growing up today training for and trying to obtain even the minimum level. It's just a numbers and focus thing.

I'm all for nostalgia, so here's Cousy:
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