Had to happen sometime: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/06/02/mike-krzyzewski-duke-retirement/
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Coach K
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Last: 2 yr ago by calumnus
A West Point Hawk that took a pass on Vietnam.
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It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did a Duke team play Cal during the Coach K era? I can think of three: We beat them at the Coliseum when the Johnny Dawkins class were freshmen. Of course the Jason Kidd - Bobby Hurley time. Then they beat us in the NCAAs several years back, right?
If those were the only times, Cal would have a winning record against Coach K Duke teams. Not bad! What other teams could say that?
Jon Scheyer, per the Athletic, and the Duke website.calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
SFCityBear
Sorry, but Cal is 2-2 vs Duke during coach K's career (and all-time as well)Big C said:
How many times did a Duke team play Cal during the Coach K era? I can think of three: We beat them at the Coliseum when the Johnny Dawkins class were freshmen. Of course the Jason Kidd - Bobby Hurley time. Then they beat us in the NCAAs several years back, right?
If those were the only times, Cal would have a winning record against Coach K Duke teams. Not bad! What other teams could say that?
1982-83 season - win under Dick Kuchen 76-71 at the Coliseum
1992-1993 season - win under Todd Bozeman 82-77 in the NCAA
2009-2010 season - loss under Mike Montgomery 68-53 in the NCAA
2019-2020 season - loss under Mark Fox 87-52 in Madison Square Garden (Duke ranked #1)
According to sports-reference.com, going back to 1949-50, only 13 out of 226 all-time opponents had a winning record against Duke, with Kentucky, Arizona and Stanford also in that group. North Carolina having a little ownage over Duke at 100 wins vs 86 losses. Actually, Cal is still in a very elite group of only 8 teams who have a .500 record vs Duke. That group includes USF, UNLV Colorado, and BYU, along with Cal. Maybe we should quit playing them while we are still in an elite group.
Something else his detractors can blame Mark Fox for: Spoiling our winning record against Duke. Personally, I hope Fox gets Cal another shot at them and the K-man this season.
Go Bears!
SFCityBear
SFCityBear said:Sorry, but Cal is 2-2 vs Duke during coach K's career (and all-time as well)Big C said:
How many times did a Duke team play Cal during the Coach K era? I can think of three: We beat them at the Coliseum when the Johnny Dawkins class were freshmen. Of course the Jason Kidd - Bobby Hurley time. Then they beat us in the NCAAs several years back, right?
If those were the only times, Cal would have a winning record against Coach K Duke teams. Not bad! What other teams could say that?
1982-83 season - win under Dick Kuchen 76-71 at the Coliseum
1992-1993 season - win under Todd Bozeman 82-77 in the NCAA
2009-2010 season - loss under Mike Montgomery 68-53 in the NCAA
2019-2020 season - loss under Mark Fox 87-52 in Madison Square Garden (Duke ranked #1)
According to sports-reference.com, going back to 1949-50, only 13 out of 226 all-time opponents had a winning record against Duke, with Kentucky, Arizona and Stanford also in that group. North Carolina having a little ownage over Duke at 100 wins vs 86 losses. Actually, Cal is still in a very elite group of only 8 teams who have a .500 record vs Duke. That group includes USF, UNLV Colorado, and BYU, along with Cal. Maybe we should quit playing them while we are still in an elite group.
Something else his detractors can blame Mark Fox for: Spoiling our winning record against Duke. Personally, I hope Fox gets Cal another shot at them and the K-man this season.
Go Bears!
I forgot about that most recent game at MSG. Makes sense (as I get older), I remember the game in '82-'83 (Frank Avalos, baby!), but not the game a year and a half ago.
"From ESPN's Gene Wojciechowski:
"After year 3, Duke boosters wanted K fired. In 4th season, [AD Tom] Butters gave K a new 5-year deal. K cried in Butters' office. 'Tom, you don't have to do this,' said K. Said Butters: 'Coach, on the contrary, I not only need to do it, I need to do it right now.' The rest is history." Axios
"After year 3, Duke boosters wanted K fired. In 4th season, [AD Tom] Butters gave K a new 5-year deal. K cried in Butters' office. 'Tom, you don't have to do this,' said K. Said Butters: 'Coach, on the contrary, I not only need to do it, I need to do it right now.' The rest is history." Axios
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Too bad Duke jumped early on getting Scheyer instead of waiting for Fox to become available....
Duke offered the job to Fox, but he turned them down. Fox said Cal was his dream job.ncbears said:
Too bad Duke jumped early on getting Scheyer instead of waiting for Fox to become available....
ncbears said:
Too bad Duke jumped early on getting Scheyer instead of waiting for Fox to become available....
But Duke considers "the one that got away'" the guy that took the University of Washington asst. coach gig.
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calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
The difference between a right wing conspiracy and the truth is about 20 months.
BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have tocalumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
Jaemyn Brakefield? You are actually disappointed that Cal didn't land Jaemyn Brakefield?calumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits.
As a frosh at Duke, he averaged 3.5 points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 31% on threes, 42% on FTs, snared 2.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists. On paper, this kid makes Lars Thiemann look good. Don't get seduced by recruit rankings.
If every coach who didn't have a good year during the corona pandemic was fired, not to mention the injuries and illness of his two best players, I doubt many coaches would want to pick D1 coaching as a profession.dimitrig said:The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have tocalumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruitsfire Mark Fox.
Cal is going nowhere with Fox. Except last place. Maybe in a really good year as high as tenth.
parentswerebears said:
Cal is going nowhere with Fox. Except last place. Maybe in a really good year as high as tenth.
Maybe our Sly Fox has a few tricks left, up his sleeve! Let's check back in 6-9 months.
(Yes, I understand that you might well be correct. It's just that I can't go through a long off-season like that.)
SFCityBear said:Jaemyn Brakefield? You are actually disappointed that Cal didn't land Jaemyn Brakefield?calumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits.
As a frosh at Duke, he averaged 3.5 points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 31% on threes, 42% on FTs, snared 2.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists. On paper, this kid makes Lars Thiemann look good. Don't get seduced by recruit rankings.
Great obfuscation. The question was "what recruits have we gone up against Duke for?" And "will K retiring make us more competitive for the players we want?" Not whether they turned out to be a good player. I listed him because we offered him. Period.
Second, many recruits cannot break into the lineup at Duke or Kentucky, or(or Michigan, Tennessee or Georgia in football) but have been, are or would be good players/starters for us at Cal.
Third, there are plenty of Cal players who were good players for us but had middling stats as freshmen.
Being able to compete against top schools for the top recruits we want is part of being a top school. Of course not every highly rated recruit that is wanted by the top programs turns out to be a top college player, but the odds are a lot better than for the low rated recruits. We want to be able to land the players that we offer. Period.
Comparing Brakefield as a freshie to Thiemann as a soph I see similar stats except Thiemann shot much better from the field (.604 vs .408), Thiemann shot no threes, Thiemann had more fouls (46 vs 27), and Thiemann's Ast/TO ratio was much worse (0.33 vs 1.00).SFCityBear said:
Jaemyn Brakefield? You are actually disappointed that Cal didn't land Jaemyn Brakefield?
As a frosh at Duke, he averaged 3.5 points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 31% on threes, 42% on FTs, snared 2.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists. On paper, this kid makes Lars Thiemann look good. Don't get seduced by recruit rankings.
Comparing Brakefield as a freshie to Thiemann as a freshie I see Thiemann still shooting better (.559) but otherwise achieving less in more minutes.
Having never seen Brakefield play I can't say anything about defense. But based on first-year stat sheets I'd take Brakefield for better and more balanced numbers. Of course I can't predict how either will develop.
I was not obfuscating. I merely read the words in your post and that is what I got out of it. That and the fact that there were two periods in your post. Maybe a first for this forum.calumnus said:SFCityBear said:Jaemyn Brakefield? You are actually disappointed that Cal didn't land Jaemyn Brakefield?calumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits.
As a frosh at Duke, he averaged 3.5 points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 31% on threes, 42% on FTs, snared 2.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists. On paper, this kid makes Lars Thiemann look good. Don't get seduced by recruit rankings.
Great obfuscation. The question was "what recruits have we gone up against Duke for?" And "will K retiring make us more competitive for the players we want?" Not whether they turned out to be a good player. I listed him because we offered him. Period.
Second, many recruits cannot break into the lineup at Duke or Kentucky, or(or Michigan, Tennessee or Georgia in football) but have been, are or would be good players/starters for us at Cal.
Third, there are plenty of Cal players who were good players for us but had middling stats as freshmen.
Being able to compete against top schools for the top recruits we want is part of being a top school. Of course not every highly rated recruit that is wanted by the top programs turns out to be a top college player, but the odds are a lot better than for the low rated recruits. We want to be able to land the players that we offer. Period.
It seems that most of your posts these days are based on digging up minute bits of information to give you another idea for writing a post with the objective of smearing our coach. Unless you have more influence with the Admin than I think, I expect Fox will still be our coach at the tipoff of the first game this season. I hope you can learn to live with it and enjoy the moments of the games where Cal plays good basketball, if and when they do. I feel like you will not give credit to Fox for anything positive that happens during his tenure, but if he does do some good things, I hope you can lay off him for a while.
SFCityBear said:I was not obfuscating. I merely read the words in your post and that is what I got out of it. That and the fact that there were two periods in your post. Maybe a first for this forum.calumnus said:SFCityBear said:Jaemyn Brakefield? You are actually disappointed that Cal didn't land Jaemyn Brakefield?calumnus said:BearForce2 said:calumnus said:
It will be interesting to see who they will get.
Overall, probably good for Cal, if we ever get our act together.
How many times did we have players deciding between Duke or Cal?
Players that both programs offered? It used to be more obviously, but most of the Duke players from California or any McDonald's AA considering us. Guys that value academics. Rabb was the last player I remember having both schools in his final 5. Last year we both offered Jaemyn Brakefield who ended up at Duke, but Cal was not in his final 5 and I doubt we were even close.
The general idea is that with K gone, some of the guys that wouldn't consider us, might, but first we have to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits.
As a frosh at Duke, he averaged 3.5 points per game, shot 40% from the floor, 31% on threes, 42% on FTs, snared 2.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists. On paper, this kid makes Lars Thiemann look good. Don't get seduced by recruit rankings.
Great obfuscation. The question was "what recruits have we gone up against Duke for?" And "will K retiring make us more competitive for the players we want?" Not whether they turned out to be a good player. I listed him because we offered him. Period.
Second, many recruits cannot break into the lineup at Duke or Kentucky, or(or Michigan, Tennessee or Georgia in football) but have been, are or would be good players/starters for us at Cal.
Third, there are plenty of Cal players who were good players for us but had middling stats as freshmen.
Being able to compete against top schools for the top recruits we want is part of being a top school. Of course not every highly rated recruit that is wanted by the top programs turns out to be a top college player, but the odds are a lot better than for the low rated recruits. We want to be able to land the players that we offer. Period.
It seems that most of your posts these days are based on digging up minute bits of information to give you another idea for writing a post with the objective of smearing our coach. Unless you have more influence with the Admin than I think, I expect Fox will still be our coach at the tipoff of the first game this season. I hope you can learn to live with it and enjoy the moments of the games where Cal plays good basketball, if and when they do. I feel like you will not give credit to Fox for anything positive that happens during his tenure, but if he does do some good things, I hope you can lay off him for a while.
This thread is about Coach K retiring. I have been addressing the topic and its potential relevance to Cal basketball. We sometimes have competed with them for top recruits that value academics. When asked a question about recruits we have competed with Duke for recently I responded with specific players. That is not "digging up minute bits of information to give (me) another idea for writing a post with the objective of smearing our coach." It is answering a question related to the topic: recruits we have competed with Duke for. And I did not start the thread or pose the question. I merely answered it honestly.
I did not even mention Fox. To be fair, I did say for us to take advantage of Coach K's retirement "first we need to turn the program around with a coach that is attractive to top recruits." Sure, while I didn't mention him, in other threads I have explained why Fox is not very attractive to top recruits. Even good players that had already enrolled at Cal. You want to argue we should not get "seduced" by recruit rankings. In another thread you started you even said landing classes with McDonald's All Americans was "the worst thing that has happened recently to Cal basketball." I can only conclude that you agree with me that Fox is unlikely to compete with Duke for top rated recruits, you are just OK with that. Thus my "smear" about Fox is an opinion you share. It is just being realistic about him as a recruiter and a coach.
I think few people on this board would be unhappy if we actually won big with lesser rated recruits and a low-scoring, defense first philosophy. If that is your preference then Coach K's retirement is irrelevant.
Nothing in this says anything about our coming season. We will all root for the Bears. My posts have focused on who our starting 5 might be. What might be our best lineup? What do the new players bring to the table? The "minute" data I've looked at are mostly player data related to that question.
Wow, the former Ben Braun recruit from LA. Ben knew the family, I believe.
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Big C said:parentswerebears said:
Cal is going nowhere with Fox. Except last place. Maybe in a really good year as high as tenth.
Maybe our Sly Fox has a few tricks left, up his sleeve! Let's check back in 6-9 months.
(Yes, I understand that you might well be correct. It's just that I can't go through a long off-season like that.)
Sly Fox?
It could be said that the only thing sly about a guy with such a bad record is that he managed to win , and keep, a job that pays him 7 figures in the first place!
concordtom said:Big C said:parentswerebears said:
Cal is going nowhere with Fox. Except last place. Maybe in a really good year as high as tenth.
Maybe our Sly Fox has a few tricks left, up his sleeve! Let's check back in 6-9 months.
(Yes, I understand that you might well be correct. It's just that I can't go through a long off-season like that.)
Sly Fox?
It could be said that the only thing sly about a guy with such a bad record is that he managed to win , and keep, a job that pays him 7 figures in the first place!
That's a pretty mean feat right there. I was never able to swing something like that. That Fox is sly.
Big C said:concordtom said:Big C said:parentswerebears said:
Cal is going nowhere with Fox. Except last place. Maybe in a really good year as high as tenth.
Maybe our Sly Fox has a few tricks left, up his sleeve! Let's check back in 6-9 months.
(Yes, I understand that you might well be correct. It's just that I can't go through a long off-season like that.)
Sly Fox?
It could be said that the only thing sly about a guy with such a bad record is that he managed to win , and keep, a job that pays him 7 figures in the first place!
That's a pretty mean feat right there. I was never able to swing something like that. That Fox is sly.
Get fired from one 7 figure salary due to poor performance and pick up another one that pays even more.
A key is rapport with your boss. I get the sense he interviews with, and gets along with, ADs from a similar demographic very well.
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