BERKELEY – Jordan Shepherd, a 2019-20 All-Conference USA selection, has signed to play for California in 2021-22, Cal men's basketball head coach Mark Fox announced Tuesday. A 6-foot-4 guard from Asheville, North Carolina, Shepherd played the previous two seasons at Charlotte after starting his collegiate career at Oklahoma.
"We're excited to add Jordan to our team heading into the 2021-22 season," Fox said. "Jordan has the athleticism to play a couple of positions and the mentality to make an immediate impact for us. His experience and versatility will make him a great addition."
Shepherd has played in 111 career games across four seasons – two at both Charlotte and Oklahoma – and started all 52 contests he played in with the 49ers. An experienced scorer, Shepherd averaged 13.0 points per game in two seasons with Charlotte and 7.8 PPG for his career.
In 2019-20, Shepherd collected All-Conference USA Third Team honors and helped the 49ers to a 16-10 record (10-8 C-USA) while leading the team in scoring (14.0 PPG), assists per game (4.1) and minutes per game (33.8). He totaled 22 double-figure scoring efforts, including four 20-point games (career-high 27 points vs. Valparaiso), throughout the season.
Shepherd started all 25 games in his final season with Charlotte in 2020-21, averaging 11.9 points, 3.5 rebounds and 2.9 assists per game while shooting 45.5 percent from the field. He tallied another 17 double-figure scoring performances, including a season-high 20 points in each of the final two games of the season against Marshall and UTSA.
Shepherd appeared in 59 total games for the Sooners during the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons. As a freshman, Shepherd averaged 4.3 points, 1.2 rebounds and 1.5 assists while making four starts for Oklahoma, including the first of his career against Memphis on Dec. 17, 2016, when he had 18 points, two rebounds and two assists.
With Shepherd's signing, the Golden Bears have four newcomers on their roster heading into the 2021-22 season, including a trio of freshmen in Sam Alajiki, Obinna Anyanwu and Marsalis Roberson.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
I'm guessing he's probably a 2 to replace Bradley. Fox knows we need outside shooting, so I assume he tried to go out and get some. The issue, once again, is whether he has enough talent to stop up from mid-major to Power 5. It's also another situation of an attempted short-term fix, which I imagine means Fox believes he's out if the program doesn't make a significant improvement in 21-22. Of course, his view of what is significant and ours is probably different.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
He looks fluid with very good body control as he creates. Kind of like Slo Mo Kyle Anderson at UCLA (obviously not same length) but just seems composed and not rushed. Hope he comes in and plays at a high level.
I think it's important that Shepherd has played against tough competition both at Oklahoma and, probably a touch lower, Charlotte. Several of our previous grad transfers from less competitive schools have taken a while to adjust to Pac-12 level play.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Kuany, Brown, Celestine, DJ and Monty Bowser I believe could all take jumps this season. Hyder I have to think doesn't have as much upside. Maybe Lars discovers something I don't know. Hard to teach good hands.
Maybe Obinna and Marsalis can add in some productive minutes.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
He looks fluid with very good body control as he creates. Kind of like Slo Mo Kyle Anderson at UCLA (obviously not same length) but just seems composed and not rushed. Hope he comes in and plays at a high level.
Interesting comparison to slo mo that I think works. He seem to beat players with body control and change of direction rather than athleticism.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Interesting that you project Sheppard as a starter, unless you have seen him play. You and everyone else have not mentioned Foreman, who is still on the roster, and who hit a lot of threes for us last season, while probably taking too many shots. I was critical of that last season, but that was what both he and Betley were recruited to do, shoot threes. Foreman did hit a couple of threes in the clutch at the end of games. He is limited in size and in the ability to penetrate and finish, but I think he should be in any rotation, unless Sheppard shows himself to be better, of course. Hyder can be in a rotation, but I would not think he would start, unless he has improved considerably over the summer. He has more upside than Foreman, but I saw nothing much from him last season to warrant him starting ahead of Malik, or getting major minutes. And Hyder can't shoot a three to save himself. He shot too many bricks last season. He has to improve that. I was hoping he could be a point guard, but he hasn't shown that he can do that very well yet either. He is still very young, and can get better.
Over two years, Thorpe has improved slightly, and so has Lars. It is hard to choose between them, as they have different skills and different weaknesses. But I haven't seen anything from Thorpe that would make me think he was ahead of Lars at the end of last season. It looks more like a 9-man usual rotation to me.
First, I'm just happy that Fox was able to get out of his bunker to actually make a public comment!! Second, I'm in on Hyder taking a huge step up this season. I like the way he looked at Fresno. He has a regular offseason to work on his game, and he comes into preseason practice without the questions about being eligible to play. I think he shows the most growth.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Yeah, it was more guessing what Fox will do and your last statement was spot on. Last year he had 18 different starting lineups over 29 games. 11 players started 1 or more games, though the most starts and most minutes went to Betley (due to injuries to Bradley and GA). Those same 11 were part of the regular rotation.
With Bradley and Betley gone and no obvious replacements my guess is Fox is going to try even more different lineups this year. My hope is that 1) a couple of guys really standout like Celestine did last year and 2) Fox recognizes it and plays those guys a lot more minutes. It would be a good thing if we are able to shorten up the rotation at least mid-way through the season.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Interesting that you project Sheppard as a starter, unless you have seen him play. You and everyone else have not mentioned Foreman, who is still on the roster, and who hit a lot of threes for us last season, while probably taking too many shots. I was critical of that last season, but that was what both he and Betley were recruited to do, shoot threes. Foreman did hit a couple of threes in the clutch at the end of games. He is limited in size and in the ability to penetrate and finish, but I think he should be in any rotation, unless Sheppard shows himself to be better, of course. Hyder can be in a rotation, but I would not think he would start, unless he has improved considerably over the summer. He has more upside than Foreman, but I saw nothing much from him last season to warrant him starting ahead of Malik, or getting major minutes. And Hyder can't shoot a three to save himself. He shot too many bricks last season. He has to improve that. I was hoping he could be a point guard, but he hasn't shown that he can do that very well yet either. He is still very young, and can get better.
Over two years, Thorpe has improved slightly, and so has Lars. It is hard to choose between them, as they have different skills and different weaknesses. But I haven't seen anything from Thorpe that would make me think he was ahead of Lars at the end of last season. It looks more like a 9-man usual rotation to me.
Good point about Foreman. He ended up shooting .352 from Three in conference which we will need.
DJ and Lars had very similar stats per 40 min:
Points DJ 9.3 Lars 9.0
Rebounds DJ 9.0 Lars 8.7
Assists DJ 0.9 Lars 0.9
Steals DJ 0.3 Lars 0.9
Blocks DJ 1.8 Lars 1.1
TOs DJ 2.7 Lars 2.7
PFs Dj 8.4 Lars 5.1
The difference is in the advanced statistics, both are surprisingly valuable last year (in our top 4), but Thorpe slightly moreso. Thorpe was #2 in defensive box score per minute (Brown was #1).
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Agree mostly with your assessment - hoping Celestine and Hyder heal up as both are recovering from injuries. Hyder can help the team as he was never fully healthy last season. I do believe Brown will take a step forward as he is putting in the effort and realizes he can make a significant impact. Coach will likely alter the rotation early on to push the players he needs to improve/play to their potential. Thorpe while a really good young man, is unlikely to get any higher than 9/10 on the rotation(Lars will remain ahead of DT as Fox believes in him). Extremely disappointed with the transfer of Bradley - extremely good young man- respectful and give his all for the program., and though at times had outbursts with teammates/coaches, should have been re recruited by our Head Coach and he likely would have stayed. Regardless, its on Fox to prove with a full offseason of work (defensive principles, strength and skill work) to dramatically improve the results on the court.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Agree mostly with your assessment - hoping Celestine and Hyder heal up as both are recovering from injuries. Hyder can help the team as he was never fully healthy last season. I do believe Brown will take a step forward as he is putting in the effort and realizes he can make a significant impact. Coach will likely alter the rotation early on to push the players he needs to improve/play to their potential. Thorpe while a really good young man, is unlikely to get any higher than 9/10 on the rotation(Lars will remain ahead of DT as Fox believes in him). Extremely disappointed with the transfer of Bradley - extremely good young man- respectful and give his all for the program., and though at times had outbursts with teammates/coaches, should have been re recruited by our Head Coach and he likely would have stayed. Regardless, its on Fox to prove with a full offseason of work (defensive principles, strength and skill work) to dramatically improve the results on the court.
Huh? OK it's moot now except that if true would not be moot in terms of how long Fox should stay at Cal. Are you saying he made no effort to try and dissuade him?
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Interesting that you project Sheppard as a starter, unless you have seen him play. You and everyone else have not mentioned Foreman, who is still on the roster, and who hit a lot of threes for us last season, while probably taking too many shots. I was critical of that last season, but that was what both he and Betley were recruited to do, shoot threes. Foreman did hit a couple of threes in the clutch at the end of games. He is limited in size and in the ability to penetrate and finish, but I think he should be in any rotation, unless Sheppard shows himself to be better, of course. Hyder can be in a rotation, but I would not think he would start, unless he has improved considerably over the summer. He has more upside than Foreman, but I saw nothing much from him last season to warrant him starting ahead of Malik, or getting major minutes. And Hyder can't shoot a three to save himself. He shot too many bricks last season. He has to improve that. I was hoping he could be a point guard, but he hasn't shown that he can do that very well yet either. He is still very young, and can get better.
Over two years, Thorpe has improved slightly, and so has Lars. It is hard to choose between them, as they have different skills and different weaknesses. But I haven't seen anything from Thorpe that would make me think he was ahead of Lars at the end of last season. It looks more like a 9-man usual rotation to me.
Good point about Foreman. He ended up shooting .352 from Three in conference which we will need.
DJ and Lars had very similar stats per 40 min:
Points DJ 9.3 Lars 9.0
Rebounds DJ 9.0 Lars 8.7
Assists DJ 0.9 Lars 0.9
Steals DJ 0.3 Lars 0.9
Blocks DJ 1.8 Lars 1.1
TOs DJ 2.7 Lars 2.7
PFs Dj 8.4 Lars 5.1
The difference is in the advanced statistics, both are surprisingly valuable last year (in our top 4), but Thorpe slightly moreso. Thorpe was #2 in defensive box score per minute (Brown was #1).
I like your defensive box score advanced statistics, because they represent numerically what we see on the court from a player, unlike the box scores which are published in newspapers and on websites, which have very little information on how a player played defense. It was obvious from watching games even on TV that Brown was our best defender last season, and that is reflected in his defensive box score per minute compared to teammates. And to have both Lars and Thorpe in the top 4 in this statistic will hopefully help a few more fans come to respect defense almost as much as they do offense. After all, defense is half the game, as teams spend half their time on the court trying to defend against the opponent. Cal had a poor record last season,winning only a few games, and there were many games in which Cal was only few points short of winning, but can we imagine what our record would have been had Lars and Thorpe not played at all? Even worse, I'd guess. Defense matters.
That being said, both Lars and Thorpe have a way to go to become defenders of the stature of Brown. They are in that top 4 defensively more due to their size, which makes them a bit of a formidable object or force standing between the opponents and the basket, rather than having acquired great defensive skills yet. The junior year is when many or maybe most big men make a major leap in maturity and ability. In a few months they will be juniors. Hopefully they got enough work in this summer to make the leap.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Yeah, it was more guessing what Fox will do and your last statement was spot on. Last year he had 18 different starting lineups over 29 games. 11 players started 1 or more games, though the most starts and most minutes went to Betley (due to injuries to Bradley and GA). Those same 11 were part of the regular rotation.
With Bradley and Betley gone and no obvious replacements my guess is Fox is going to try even more different lineups this year. My hope is that 1) a couple of guys really standout like Celestine did last year and 2) Fox recognizes it and plays those guys a lot more minutes. It would be a good thing if we are able to shorten up the rotation at least mid-way through the season.
It sounds like you and Sluggo are implying that Fox is somehow not rational, not orthodox, or not competent by starting and or playing too many of his players in games. There are at least two factors that have a huge effect on which players a coach can play in games, ability and injuries or illness. If a player is injured and can't play, then he is not available for the coach to select him, and if a player is not yet a capable player, then he may be available, but it is very risky to play him in games.
Fox's players had a lot of injuries last season. Bradley was injured, missed games, returned, played hurt, got injured again, and returned to play hurt again. Anticevich was seriously ill, had abdominal surgery, had lost weight, was clearly weaker when he returned, and except for a few games, I felt he did not perform as well as he might have, had he not been injured. Celestine had rehabbed from a high school injury, but did not appear to me to be in game shape at the start of the season, and it took him a long time to earn a starting position. Bowser suffered a serious head injury in a game, and I think Fox had to be careful, and went slowly with giving him many minutes the rest of the season. Foreman got injured, and so did Hyder. Fox played Betley so much that he got fatigued, and his legs were tired, and for a jump-shooter, that is problematic, and as Betley's shooting slumped, Fox had to sit him down.
There was one good player on the team, Bradley. Brown and Anticevich were clearly PAC12 level players, but maybe not as starters on other teams. Kelly can play up to PAC12 level, but is limited defensively. The rest are very young and less skilled or transfers from lower level competition. So I would not fault Fox for having 18 starting lineups and an 11 man rotation. He had the administration wanting results, wins, and the fans wanting them even more, and he tried everyone except the water boy to find some sort of winning combination.
For comparison, let's look at our last two winning seasons, 2016 and 2017. In 2016, Cal was as loaded with talent as we had been in many years, and it was a team which had very few injuries during the season (even though injuries to Wallace and Bird at the very end of the regular season probably cost Cal a chance at a run in the NCAA). The only player who missed games with an injury during the season was Ty Wallace, as I recall. Cuonzo used 7 different starting lineups, with 8 players starting one game or more, and an 8-9 man rotation.
In 2017, Cal was not as good a team, but Cuonzo still had several good players. I think Bird missed 4-5 games with injury, and Mullins missed a game, because he was traveling, as I remember. But with less talent than the year before, Cuonzo used 11 different starting lineups, with 10 players starting one game or more, and a rotation of 7-8 players.
With Fox's team having many more injuries than Cuonzo's teams had, and much less talent than Cuonzo had, I can understand using a bigger rotation and needing to use more starting lineups. Other than Bradley, Fox did not a have a player who could have started on those two Cuonzo teams, and only maybe one or two others who might have made Cuonzo's two rosters. Was Fox frantic in trying so many players? Maybe. But you seem to know Fox well, so what did he do at Georgia, when he had little talent, and when he had better talent? Did he still have many different starting lineups, and a big rotation?
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
With Fox's team having many more injuries than Cuonzo's teams had, and much less talent than Cuonzo had, I can understand using a bigger rotation and needing to use more starting lineups.
Good points. I also think with so many young players Fox would want to get a good look at all of them in game situations.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Yeah, it was more guessing what Fox will do and your last statement was spot on. Last year he had 18 different starting lineups over 29 games. 11 players started 1 or more games, though the most starts and most minutes went to Betley (due to injuries to Bradley and GA). Those same 11 were part of the regular rotation.
With Bradley and Betley gone and no obvious replacements my guess is Fox is going to try even more different lineups this year. My hope is that 1) a couple of guys really standout like Celestine did last year and 2) Fox recognizes it and plays those guys a lot more minutes. It would be a good thing if we are able to shorten up the rotation at least mid-way through the season.
It sounds like you and Sluggo are implying that Fox is somehow not rational, not orthodox, or not competent by starting and or playing too many of his players in games. There are at least two factors that have a huge effect on which players a coach can play in games, ability and injuries or illness. If a player is injured and can't play, then he is not available for the coach to select him, and if a player is not yet a capable player, then he may be available, but it is very risky to play him in games.
Fox's players had a lot of injuries last season. Bradley was injured, missed games, returned, played hurt, got injured again, and returned to play hurt again. Anticevich was seriously ill, had abdominal surgery, had lost weight, was clearly weaker when he returned, and except for a few games, I felt he did not perform as well as he might have, had he not been injured. Celestine had rehabbed from a high school injury, but did not appear to me to be in game shape at the start of the season, and it took him a long time to earn a starting position. Bowser suffered a serious head injury in a game, and I think Fox had to be careful, and went slowly with giving him many minutes the rest of the season. Foreman got injured, and so did Hyder. Fox played Betley so much that he got fatigued, and his legs were tired, and for a jump-shooter, that is problematic, and as Betley's shooting slumped, Fox had to sit him down.
There was one good player on the team, Bradley. Brown and Anticevich were clearly PAC12 level players, but maybe not as starters on other teams. Kelly can play up to PAC12 level, but is limited defensively. The rest are very young and less skilled or transfers from lower level competition. So I would not fault Fox for having 18 starting lineups and an 11 man rotation. He had the administration wanting results, wins, and the fans wanting them even more, and he tried everyone except the water boy to find some sort of winning combination.
For comparison, let's look at our last two winning seasons, 2016 and 2017. In 2016, Cal was as loaded with talent as we had been in many years, and it was a team which had very few injuries during the season (even though injuries to Wallace and Bird at the very end of the regular season probably cost Cal a chance at a run in the NCAA). The only player who missed games with an injury during the season was Ty Wallace, as I recall. Cuonzo used 7 different starting lineups, with 8 players starting one game or more, and an 8-9 man rotation.
In 2017, Cal was not as good a team, but Cuonzo still had several good players. I think Bird missed 4-5 games with injury, and Mullins missed a game, because he was traveling, as I remember. But with less talent than the year before, Cuonzo used 11 different starting lineups, with 10 players starting one game or more, and a rotation of 7-8 players.
With Fox's team having many more injuries than Cuonzo's teams had, and much less talent than Cuonzo had, I can understand using a bigger rotation and needing to use more starting lineups. Other than Bradley, Fox did not a have a player who could have started on those two Cuonzo teams, and only maybe one or two others who might have made Cuonzo's two rosters. Was Fox frantic in trying so many players? Maybe. But you seem to know Fox well, so what did he do at Georgia, when he had little talent, and when he had better talent? Did he still have many different starting lineups, and a big rotation?
Well here is the data I have for Cal over the past 11 years: Year Coach Number of different starting lineups: 10-11 Monty 5 11-12 Monty 6 12-13 Monty 4 13-14 Monty 5 14-15 Martin 5 15-16 Martin 6 16-17 Martin 10 17-18 Jones 8 18-19 Jones 11 19-20 Fox 10 20-21 Fox 18
18 different starting lineups in 29 games is just very notable. FWIW, at Georgia Fox ranged from 5 to 12.
Pretty sure some of Monty's teams dealt with injuries too.
A major factor in maximizing wins is playing your best players as much as they can play.
Some teams emphasize their depth by playing fast and playing a deep rotation. We are not deep and we play very slowly.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Interesting that you project Sheppard as a starter, unless you have seen him play. You and everyone else have not mentioned Foreman, who is still on the roster, and who hit a lot of threes for us last season, while probably taking too many shots. I was critical of that last season, but that was what both he and Betley were recruited to do, shoot threes. Foreman did hit a couple of threes in the clutch at the end of games. He is limited in size and in the ability to penetrate and finish, but I think he should be in any rotation, unless Sheppard shows himself to be better, of course. Hyder can be in a rotation, but I would not think he would start, unless he has improved considerably over the summer. He has more upside than Foreman, but I saw nothing much from him last season to warrant him starting ahead of Malik, or getting major minutes. And Hyder can't shoot a three to save himself. He shot too many bricks last season. He has to improve that. I was hoping he could be a point guard, but he hasn't shown that he can do that very well yet either. He is still very young, and can get better.
Over two years, Thorpe has improved slightly, and so has Lars. It is hard to choose between them, as they have different skills and different weaknesses. But I haven't seen anything from Thorpe that would make me think he was ahead of Lars at the end of last season. It looks more like a 9-man usual rotation to me.
Now we can debate whether my opinion is worth anything. But I don't form one without having seen someone play. With Shepherd it is just highlights. I even posted some in this link. I think they together with his stats paint a clear picture. I have seen Foreman play and he is not a pac12 athlete, undersized, and not a good enough shooter to overcome that.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I like the insider info, but if there is anything Cal does not have it is depth. Only two of its five proposed starters would even compete for starting positions for upper half of the conference teams. Cal is beyond thin. They will give time to walk on level players.
I wonder if he will mostly play PG (challenge Brown for minutes/starts) or play the 2 (seems to be a lot of emphasis of him as a scorer) with the idea he will help replace Bradley and Betley.
If you watch him play his strength is off the dribble, either taking it to the basket or settling for the midrange. So I think he will do a lot of Paris Austin, late in the shot clock things. His Assist to turnover ratio is only a little over 1-to-1, so he will not be a classic 1. I think he pairs with Brown, who brings great defense. It certainly does not hurt that he will be in his fifth year with a lot of experience and physical maturity.
If you want to feel positive about him, check out
So you are guessing our starting lineup will be Kelly, GA, Celestine, Sheppard, Brown?
I agree, he looks good creating off the dribble. If we we had another obvious option at 2/3 I'd like to see him mostly at PG. I am hoping 1 or 2 of our wings has a breakout season.
Yes. I see Call having a 7 man team, those 5 plus Hyder and Kuany. So two of three of Brown, Hyder and Shepherd start. I think Brown and Shepherd are most likely with Hyder relieving either of them. Celestine is the 3 and GA and Kelly are 4/5. Kuany comes in for Celestine or one of the bigs.
If other players improve, then they get minutes. I think Thorpe is most likely to earn them. He makes sense in an 8 man rotation replacing Kelly at the 5.
That is what I think should happen. What I think will happen is that Fox will play like 12 players in almost random configurations.
Agree mostly with your assessment - hoping Celestine and Hyder heal up as both are recovering from injuries. Hyder can help the team as he was never fully healthy last season. I do believe Brown will take a step forward as he is putting in the effort and realizes he can make a significant impact. Coach will likely alter the rotation early on to push the players he needs to improve/play to their potential. Thorpe while a really good young man, is unlikely to get any higher than 9/10 on the rotation(Lars will remain ahead of DT as Fox believes in him). Extremely disappointed with the transfer of Bradley - extremely good young man- respectful and give his all for the program., and though at times had outbursts with teammates/coaches, should have been re recruited by our Head Coach and he likely would have stayed. Regardless, its on Fox to prove with a full offseason of work (defensive principles, strength and skill work) to dramatically improve the results on the court.
Huh? OK it's moot now except that if true would not be moot in terms of how long Fox should stay at Cal. Are you saying he made no effort to try and dissuade him?
There were multiple games that Fox benched Bradley either at the start of a game or after the half and spoke less than glowingly about him in interviews.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I like the insider info, but if there is anything Cal does not have it is depth. Only two of its five proposed starters would even compete for starting positions for upper half of the conference teams. Cal is beyond thin. They will give time to walk on level players.
Semantics, but one could say that the Cal roster has great depth because their isn't much difference between their second five and their first five. Of course, you probably meant depth as in their second five are GOOD players.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I like the insider info, but if there is anything Cal does not have it is depth. Only two of its five proposed starters would even compete for starting positions for upper half of the conference teams. Cal is beyond thin. They will give time to walk on level players.
Semantics, but one could say that the Cal roster has great depth because their isn't much difference between their second five and their first five. Of course, you probably meant depth as in their second five are GOOD players.
We are 12-deep in marginal players!
I think Fox will play a lot of players early, the hope is that a core group (mostly unknown at this point) will stand out as better than the rest and Fox will tighten up the rotation to give those players the vast majority of the minutes.
Well here is the data I have for Cal over the past 11 years: Year Coach Number of different starting lineups: 10-11 Monty 5 11-12 Monty 6 12-13 Monty 4 13-14 Monty 5 14-15 Martin 5 15-16 Martin 6 16-17 Martin 10 17-18 Jones 8 18-19 Jones 11 19-20 Fox 10 20-21 Fox 18
18 different starting lineups in 29 games is just very notable. FWIW, at Georgia Fox ranged from 5 to 12.
Pretty sure some of Monty's teams dealt with injuries too.
A major factor in maximizing wins is playing your best players as much as they can play.
Some teams emphasize their depth by playing fast and playing a deep rotation. We are not deep and we play very slowly.
Some of it is coaching style (a la your last point), but I'd toss out 20-21 as being a weird outlier (i.e. players losing practice and game time for qurantine issues was unique). Even doing so, my take is your second to last point about playing your best players - that is we just haven't had 5 or 6 talented players to settle into a rotation.
By observation, I think Fox has been an average coach in terms of rotations. My only big beef has been his stubbornness with Lars, but I temper that with lack of obvious options. I would put Monty as a plus and Jones and Braun as a minus. However, Martin had some puzzling rotations, as I recall.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I like the insider info, but if there is anything Cal does not have it is depth. Only two of its five proposed starters would even compete for starting positions for upper half of the conference teams. Cal is beyond thin. They will give time to walk on level players.
Semantics, but one could say that the Cal roster has great depth because their isn't much difference between their second five and their first five. Of course, you probably meant depth as in their second five are GOOD players.
We are 12-deep in marginal players!
Not really semantics. Depth would either mean that there are many productive players or that if a starter got hurt there would be a similar level replacement. If any starter got hurt it would be a big problem. There is no adequate replacement for Kelly, GA, Brown or Celestine.
4thGen, any word on how off-season workouts are progressing? Will there be any further roster "movement" this summer?
Workouts are going well - biggest issue is getting Celestine and Hyder healthy as its PT for them. Others are working hard and M Roberson is on campus and working out as well. Don't know if there will be any further roster moves, would think unlikely. Players definitely are tired of losing (its a situation that they had never faced before). The team should be better - from a strength, maturity and depth standpoint. However losing their top player who could take/create the tough needed shots down the stretch is a big loss. Coaches and players have bought into the mantra that with everyone picking up the slack with personal improvement, the net increase will cover the points lost. I do think point guard play will be better, but will the outside shooting and interior play improve?
I like the insider info, but if there is anything Cal does not have it is depth. Only two of its five proposed starters would even compete for starting positions for upper half of the conference teams. Cal is beyond thin. They will give time to walk on level players.
Semantics, but one could say that the Cal roster has great depth because their isn't much difference between their second five and their first five. Of course, you probably meant depth as in their second five are GOOD players.
We are 12-deep in marginal players!
Not really semantics. Depth would either mean that there are many productive players or that if a starter got hurt there would be a similar level replacement. If any starter got hurt it would be a big problem. There is no adequate replacement for Kelly, GA, Brown or Celestine.
Correct on "similar level replacement" comparison - but that level of a bar is rare to find at college or even pro level. ASU, Stanford, AZ, took huge hits with their injuries and even Ucla took a momentary one with theirs. What Fox will have is a roster of 14 players (plus 2 walk ons) to allow for improved competitive practice sessions, that can improve the regular season results. Agreed that the four players you mentioned must stay healthy as they are the most skilled/impactful ones on the roster. Roberson will help but that will not occur right away. The team does have serviceable players for short spurts in Hyder, Foreman, Lars, hopefully the transfer, and Kuany. The recruits will be unlikely to be similar level replacements this season - but they do bring more athleticism and should develop in time.
Well here is the data I have for Cal over the past 11 years: Year Coach Number of different starting lineups: 10-11 Monty 5 11-12 Monty 6 12-13 Monty 4 13-14 Monty 5 14-15 Martin 5 15-16 Martin 6 16-17 Martin 10 17-18 Jones 8 18-19 Jones 11 19-20 Fox 10 20-21 Fox 18
18 different starting lineups in 29 games is just very notable. FWIW, at Georgia Fox ranged from 5 to 12.
Pretty sure some of Monty's teams dealt with injuries too.
A major factor in maximizing wins is playing your best players as much as they can play.
Some teams emphasize their depth by playing fast and playing a deep rotation. We are not deep and we play very slowly.
Some of it is coaching style (a la your last point), but I'd toss out 20-21 as being a weird outlier (i.e. players losing practice and game time for qurantine issues was unique). Even doing so, my take is your second to last point about playing your best players - that is we just haven't had 5 or 6 talented players to settle into a rotation.
By observation, I think Fox has been an average coach in terms of rotations. My only big beef has been his stubbornness with Lars, but I temper that with lack of obvious options. I would put Monty as a plus and Jones and Braun as a minus. However, Martin had some puzzling rotations, as I recall.
I agree with all of this. I often wondered why Braun would start a different player once in a while, and the player usually didn't perform very well. I figured that maybe Braun had started him because the player done well in practice that week. There are practice players and game players, and a coach needs to start or give the most minutes to players who perform best in games, not necessarily the ones who play best in practice. I also like the idea of sometimes rewarding a backup player who had played well in the past game with more minutes or a start.
