AP Preseason Top 25 Men's Hoops Poll…

1,799 Views | 14 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Econ141
71Bear
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Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??



bearister
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College basketball: 64 reasons to be excited for 2021-22 - Sports Illustrated


https://www.si.com/college/2021/10/13/ncaa-basketball-season-reasons-be-excited-2021
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SFCityBear
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71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??




The poll shows only two PAC12 teams made the list. Did you somehow expect that Fox's Cal team would leapfrog 9 other PAC12 teams and make it into the top 25 rankings? None of the other 9 PAC12 teams was coached by Fox, and he is not responsible for their recruiting, is he? Did any of the 9 start with a program in as bad a shape as the one inherited by Fox?

Sure, all the boo-birds will point to the fact that several of the players from Wyking Jones last season, 2018-19, decided to leave the team after Fox was hired, namely Sueing, McNeill, Vanover, and Davis. Many say that they left because they did not like the new coach. Maybe he offended them, maybe they didn't like the cut of his jib, or maybe they just wanted to go elsewhere. In any case, Fox took the players who stayed, added some new recruits who were not immediately impressive, and he managed to have a better record than Wyking had the year before, with all this so-called better talent.

In 2018-19, under Wyking, Cal was 8-23 overall, and finished 3-15, 12th in the PAC12. A year later, 2019-2020, under Fox, with several of the same players starting, Cal was 14-18 overall, and finished 7-11, 8th in the PAC12.

Over Wyking's two seasons, Cal was 16-47 overall, 5-31 in the PAC12, finishing in 12th place both years.
Over Fox's two seasons, Cal was 23-38 overall, 10-38 in the PAC12, finishing in 8th and 12th place.

Not only that, but Wyking never had a season like 2020-21, where Fox and Cal had to deal with several players suffering serious injuries and illness, along with the fears and protocols of Covid-19.

So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?
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bearister
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When Wyking was fired, my sentiment:




It is not every coach that can establish a school record, in Wyking's case, he helmed the Bears to 16 consecutive losses. At least we will always have that.

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SFCityBear
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bearister said:

When Wyking was fired, my sentiment:




It is not every coach that can establish a school record, in Wyking's case, he helmed the Bears to 16 consecutive losses. At least we will always have that.



Good one.



SFCityBear
Big C
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SFCityBear said:

71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??




The poll shows only two PAC12 teams made the list. Did you somehow expect that Fox's Cal team would leapfrog 9 other PAC12 teams and make it into the top 25 rankings? None of the other 9 PAC12 teams was coached by Fox, and he is not responsible for their recruiting, is he? Did any of the 9 start with a program in as bad a shape as the one inherited by Fox?

Sure, all the boo-birds will point to the fact that several of the players from Wyking Jones last season, 2018-19, decided to leave the team after Fox was hired, namely Sueing, McNeill, Vanover, and Davis. Many say that they left because they did not like the new coach. Maybe he offended them, maybe they didn't like the cut of his jib, or maybe they just wanted to go elsewhere. In any case, Fox took the players who stayed, added some new recruits who were not immediately impressive, and he managed to have a better record than Wyking had the year before, with all this so-called better talent.

In 2018-19, under Wyking, Cal was 8-23 overall, and finished 3-15, 12th in the PAC12. A year later, 2019-2020, under Fox, with several of the same players starting, Cal was 14-18 overall, and finished 7-11, 8th in the PAC12.

Over Wyking's two seasons, Cal was 16-47 overall, 5-31 in the PAC12, finishing in 12th place both years.
Over Fox's two seasons, Cal was 23-38 overall, 10-38 in the PAC12, finishing in 8th and 12th place.

Not only that, but Wyking never had a season like 2020-21, where Fox and Cal had to deal with several players suffering serious injuries and illness, along with the fears and protocols of Covid-19.

So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?

Possible explanations:

- Any negativity about Fox going into Season Three was impossible for Wyking, as he had already been fired for months

- While I wouldn't say Wyking went out of his way to chat up his program, Fox is especially sequestered in a (sorry) fox hole

- general disgust built up over the SEVERAL years of lousy Cal Basketball directed at its current leader
concernedparent
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SFCityBear said:

71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??






So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?

Many on this board hated Wyking. He was an incompetent ******* whose only plus was not cheating to bring in Pac 12 average players. Most of us were incredulous that we gave a multi-year contract to a guy with zero HC experience and wasn't even the lead assistant on Cuonzo's team.
SFCityBear
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Big C said:

SFCityBear said:

71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??




The poll shows only two PAC12 teams made the list. Did you somehow expect that Fox's Cal team would leapfrog 9 other PAC12 teams and make it into the top 25 rankings? None of the other 9 PAC12 teams was coached by Fox, and he is not responsible for their recruiting, is he? Did any of the 9 start with a program in as bad a shape as the one inherited by Fox?

Sure, all the boo-birds will point to the fact that several of the players from Wyking Jones last season, 2018-19, decided to leave the team after Fox was hired, namely Sueing, McNeill, Vanover, and Davis. Many say that they left because they did not like the new coach. Maybe he offended them, maybe they didn't like the cut of his jib, or maybe they just wanted to go elsewhere. In any case, Fox took the players who stayed, added some new recruits who were not immediately impressive, and he managed to have a better record than Wyking had the year before, with all this so-called better talent.

In 2018-19, under Wyking, Cal was 8-23 overall, and finished 3-15, 12th in the PAC12. A year later, 2019-2020, under Fox, with several of the same players starting, Cal was 14-18 overall, and finished 7-11, 8th in the PAC12.

Over Wyking's two seasons, Cal was 16-47 overall, 5-31 in the PAC12, finishing in 12th place both years.
Over Fox's two seasons, Cal was 23-38 overall, 10-38 in the PAC12, finishing in 8th and 12th place.

Not only that, but Wyking never had a season like 2020-21, where Fox and Cal had to deal with several players suffering serious injuries and illness, along with the fears and protocols of Covid-19.

So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?

Possible explanations:

- Any negativity about Fox going into Season Three was impossible for Wyking, as he had already been fired for months

- While I wouldn't say Wyking went out of his way to chat up his program, Fox is especially sequestered in a (sorry) fox hole

- general disgust built up over the SEVERAL years of lousy Cal Basketball directed at its current leader
These points all seem reasonable to me. I think Martin experienced some unwarranted criticism for his first recruiting class and for his first year, as a dropoff from Montgomery's teams and some good recruits that he passed on to Cuonzo.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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concernedparent said:

SFCityBear said:

71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??






So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?

Many on this board hated Wyking. He was an incompetent ******* whose only plus was not cheating to bring in Pac 12 average players. Most of us were incredulous that we gave a multi-year contract to a guy with zero HC experience and wasn't even the lead assistant on Cuonzo's team.
I criticized Wyking as much as anyone. I didn't like his strategy, his tactics, his personnel decisions, his defense, or his recruiting. I just don't remember our criticism rising to a level of hate, but I could be wrong. I did not want Fox. If we were not going to hire a name coach with a good track record, I favored DeCuire, and would have welcomed Gates as well. But it seems like fans now are going to great lengths to make Fox look bad, worse than he is. His hire was disliked immediately by a number of fans, as was the hire of AD Knowlton. Fox did do well his first year, to at least have Cal show some improvement. Then it collapsed with year two. Some fans called him a losing coach at Georgia because he was one game under .500. Technically, that is correct, but in the real world, that makes him an average or mediocre coach at that one school. Hardly any fan talks about his tenure at Nevada, where he had 5 years of some success. The ones who do mention Nevada say he did it with Trent Jones' material, or he did not do much with it. They prefer to talk about Georgia and his time at Cal. He needs to do well this season or he is gone, and I wish we could give him some support, for the sake of his players. He hinders his own cause by apparently not being a likeable or personable guy, not handling himself so well at times with the press and interviews, which affects fan support.
SFCityBear
bearister
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Is the Tigers' cold conclusion enough to put Martin in the hot seat? | Mizzou Men's Basketball | columbiamissourian.com


https://www.columbiamissourian.com/sports/mizzou_mens_basketball/is-the-tigers-cold-conclusion-enough-to-put-martin-in-the-hot-seat/article_613b07ea-8f63-11eb-a875-2b90cbeec6bc.html



Mizzou basketball coach Cuonzo Martin not bothered by players leaving


https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/sports/college/tiger-extra/2021/04/14/mizzou-basketball-coach-cuonzo-martin-transfer-portal-not-bothered-players-leaving-roster-2021-2022/7221749002/

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HearstMining
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SFCityBear said:

71Bear said:

Cal received no votes….

I thought for certain that the Mark Fox-led Bears would receive some recognition for the sterling work the coach has done, particularly in the area of recruiting. The cupboard is now full. Why no votes??




The poll shows only two PAC12 teams made the list. Did you somehow expect that Fox's Cal team would leapfrog 9 other PAC12 teams and make it into the top 25 rankings? None of the other 9 PAC12 teams was coached by Fox, and he is not responsible for their recruiting, is he? Did any of the 9 start with a program in as bad a shape as the one inherited by Fox?

Sure, all the boo-birds will point to the fact that several of the players from Wyking Jones last season, 2018-19, decided to leave the team after Fox was hired, namely Sueing, McNeill, Vanover, and Davis. Many say that they left because they did not like the new coach. Maybe he offended them, maybe they didn't like the cut of his jib, or maybe they just wanted to go elsewhere. In any case, Fox took the players who stayed, added some new recruits who were not immediately impressive, and he managed to have a better record than Wyking had the year before, with all this so-called better talent.

In 2018-19, under Wyking, Cal was 8-23 overall, and finished 3-15, 12th in the PAC12. A year later, 2019-2020, under Fox, with several of the same players starting, Cal was 14-18 overall, and finished 7-11, 8th in the PAC12.

Over Wyking's two seasons, Cal was 16-47 overall, 5-31 in the PAC12, finishing in 12th place both years.
Over Fox's two seasons, Cal was 23-38 overall, 10-38 in the PAC12, finishing in 8th and 12th place.

Not only that, but Wyking never had a season like 2020-21, where Fox and Cal had to deal with several players suffering serious injuries and illness, along with the fears and protocols of Covid-19.

So my question is why do so many Cal fans apparently have so much more contempt and almost hate for Fox than I can remember for Wyking, when Fox does have the better record of the two? Yours is one of the mildest posts, but it is sarcastic. Did you have the same contempt for Wyking?
Cal fan's didn't like the process Knowlton used to hire Fox, and they didn't like the tone of Fox's first speech to the players (which should never have been videoed and posted). So months before Fox's first practice at Cal, fans saw two strikes against him.

Did I have the same contempt for Wyking? Not as much as I had Knowlton for planning to keep him around for a third year.
parentswerebears
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I don't hate Fox, but I think he is a my best a mediocre coach who was hired using the most pathetic process, has brought in subpar recruiting classes, is a zero on the perceived likability scale, plays a boring, crappy style that most kids do t want to play. There are many more reasons why I don't want Him as coach, but there is no hate.
HoopDreams
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I rarely comment about a current coach, as regardless of what I think of them, I want the team to succeed and I don't think it's helpful to put an opinion up on a public board where players, recruits, families and others read

But WYking is no longer the coach

I felt WK was like an AAU coach… sell a run and gun, 40 minutes of hell style to recruits

And then try to implement it despite having the wrong players, and little depth. He even put the ball in Coleman's hands as his go to player

(I actually thought Coleman was entertaining as he never saw a shot he didn't like and would attack the basket like few I've seen. There were a few baskets that just left me in awe, but he wasn't the player to put as the focus of your offense)

He also had a senior Lee but could not coach him and wasted his talent. Better coach have played him and King as shot blockers and extended their perimeter defense instead of trying to constantly trap (unsuccessfully)

Those strategies might work in AAU 15 but not against D1 coached teams

The result was embarrassing blow outs to poor mid-major teams

calumnus
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parentswerebears said:

I don't hate Fox, but I think he is a my best a mediocre coach who was hired using the most pathetic process, has brought in subpar recruiting classes, is a zero on the perceived likability scale, plays a boring, crappy style that most kids do t want to play. There are many more reasons why I don't want Him as coach, but there is no hate.


Well said.
calumnus
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HoopDreams said:

I rarely comment about a current coach, as regardless of what I think of them, I want the team to succeed and I don't think it's helpful to put an opinion up on a public board where players, recruits, families and others read

But WYking is no longer the coach

I felt WK was like an AAU coach… sell a run and gun, 40 minutes of hell style to recruits

And then try to implement it despite having the wrong players, and little depth. He even put the ball in Coleman's hands as his go to player

(I actually thought Coleman was entertaining as he never saw a shot he didn't like and would attack the basket like few I've seen. There were a few baskets that just left me in awe, but he wasn't the player to put as the focus of your offense)

He also had a senior Lee but could not coach him and wasted his talent. Better coach have played him and King as shot blockers and extended their perimeter defense instead of trying to constantly trap (unsuccessfully)

Those strategies might work in AAU 15 but not against D1 coached teams

The result was embarrassing blow outs to poor mid-major teams




Yes, WJ and SD both pushed tempo their first year despite major deficiencies and that only worsened our chances increasing losses and margins of loss. WJ being from Pepperdine tried force our square pegs into that round hole. Maybe, like Dykes, as part of a longer term strategy to play that way.

Despite scaring off most of what talent we had Fox made a marginal improvement by slowing the game down to a crawl and getting the ball into our best player's hands at the end of nearly every possession.

I believe the ability to adjust strategy and tactics to fit your roster is a key quality in a coach in the college game where your roster is constantly changing and you do not have full control of who ends up accepting your scholarship offers.

The problem with Fox's strategy was not that it was triage, the problem is that is his preferred style over the last 11 years.

I wanted DeCuire instead of Jones, but I thought Wyking Jones could end up being good as the HC with good assistants. Basketball is not football. It is not so far to move down the bench to become HC. He is from LA and has appeared in multiple movies. I thought he would at least recruit well and be a good motivator. I liked the old LMU teams. It could have made Cal basketball fun. His first year was a disaster as discussed. However, where he lost me was all the player defections, throwing the team under the bus "lack of effort" (Fox does this too) and then, worst of all, pushing players Winston and McCullough off the team for simply not being very good and you want to offer their scholarship to someone else. That is unforgivable in my book. They are already Cal students, making friends, getting started on their degree. They can join the ranks of the many 4 year scholarship benchwarmers, or THEY can choose to transfer if they want, but once a player becomes a Bear, THEY are the ones I root for. Not the coach.

I wanted Jones gone and at least some of the players did too. Good riddance. I didn't "hate" him, far from it. But I did view his getting fired as karma. However, note that Knowlton was set to keep him if it were not for the outcry when that was announced. That is why our displeasure as fans needs to be known. Without it, Knowlton thinks everything is fine. He sat through similar seasons with Air Force basketball and never made a change.

Fox was just one of those coaches that you watch over the years and think "I am glad that guy is not our coach" and "I guess they let you get away with that in the SEC." just disagreeable in interviews. When Georgia finally fired him, you wonder "Why did that take so long?" "How do these guys stay employed making $millions when there are high school coaches that are better basketball minds, teachers and leaders?" Then we hired him and gave him an $8 million contract, despite his reputation as a poor recruiter in Georgia and never having recruited a player from California, and more.

However I don't hate Fox, though it is true I don't like him. I just don't think he is the right coach, he is running the program into the ground and every year we keep him will take 3 to recover from..

I blame Knowlton, but he is just another guy who has a contract from Cal for $millions, was not qualified, was/is a horrible fit and is driving my beloved Cal athletics programs into the ground through incompetence.




Econ141
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calumnus said:

HoopDreams said:

I rarely comment about a current coach, as regardless of what I think of them, I want the team to succeed and I don't think it's helpful to put an opinion up on a public board where players, recruits, families and others read

But WYking is no longer the coach

I felt WK was like an AAU coach… sell a run and gun, 40 minutes of hell style to recruits

And then try to implement it despite having the wrong players, and little depth. He even put the ball in Coleman's hands as his go to player

(I actually thought Coleman was entertaining as he never saw a shot he didn't like and would attack the basket like few I've seen. There were a few baskets that just left me in awe, but he wasn't the player to put as the focus of your offense)

He also had a senior Lee but could not coach him and wasted his talent. Better coach have played him and King as shot blockers and extended their perimeter defense instead of trying to constantly trap (unsuccessfully)

Those strategies might work in AAU 15 but not against D1 coached teams

The result was embarrassing blow outs to poor mid-major teams




Yes, WJ and SD both pushed tempo their first year despite major deficiencies and that only worsened our chances increasing losses and margins of loss. WJ being from Pepperdine tried force our square pegs into that round hole. Maybe, like Dykes, as part of a longer term strategy to play that way.

Despite scaring off most of what talent we had Fox made a marginal improvement by slowing the game down to a crawl and getting the ball into our best player's hands at the end of nearly every possession.

I believe the ability to adjust strategy and tactics to fit your roster is a key quality in a coach in the college game where your roster is constantly changing and you do not have full control of who ends up accepting your scholarship offers.

The problem with Fox's strategy was not that it was triage, the problem is that is his preferred style over the last 11 years.

I wanted DeCuire instead of Jones, but I thought Wyking Jones could end up being good as the HC with good assistants. Basketball is not football. It is not so far to move down the bench to become HC. He is from LA and has appeared in multiple movies. I thought he would at least recruit well and be a good motivator. I liked the old LMU teams. It could have made Cal basketball fun. His first year was a disaster as discussed. However, where he lost me was all the player defections, throwing the team under the bus "lack of effort" (Fox does this too) and then, worst of all, pushing players Winston and McCullough off the team for simply not being very good and you want to offer their scholarship to someone else. That is unforgivable in my book. They are already Cal students, making friends, getting started on their degree. They can join the ranks of the many 4 year scholarship benchwarmers, or THEY can choose to transfer if they want, but once a player becomes a Bear, THEY are the ones I root for. Not the coach.

I wanted Jones gone and at least some of the players did too. Good riddance. I didn't "hate" him, far from it. But I did view his getting fired as karma. However, note that Knowlton was set to keep him if it were not for the outcry when that was announced. That is why our displeasure as fans needs to be known. Without it, Knowlton thinks everything is fine. He sat through similar seasons with Air Force basketball and never made a change.

Fox was just one of those coaches that you watch over the years and think "I am glad that guy is not our coach" and "I guess they let you get away with that in the SEC." just disagreeable in interviews. When Georgia finally fired him, you wonder "Why did that take so long?" "How do these guys stay employed making $millions when there are high school coaches that are better basketball minds, teachers and leaders?" Then we hired him and gave him an $8 million contract, despite his reputation as a poor recruiter in Georgia and never having recruited a player from California, and more.

However I don't hate Fox, though it is true I don't like him. I just don't think he is the right coach, he is running the program into the ground and every year we keep him will take 3 to recover from..

I blame Knowlton, but he is just another guy who has a contract from Cal for $millions, was not qualified, was/is a horrible fit and is driving my beloved Cal athletics programs into the ground through incompetence.







Agreed ... Knowlton should be fired after the 1-5 start by the football program and a basketball program that has languished as the pac-12 worst for the past few years.

We need to fire more than just Knowlton - we need to keep going hire up the chain.
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