stu said:

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ClayK said:

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There should be consequences -- and Cal should agree to call the game "no contest."

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Cal scorers made a big mistake. Pac-12 officials refused to correct it. SU got screwed. IMHO the right thing to do would be for Knowlton and Fox to agree that SU won in regulation. I'm sure SU would concur. No re-do.

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All true. What I would like to see is Knowlton call a meeting with Fox, the Cal Staff, and the Cal players, and come to agreement over how to handle this. One of the things that sports, even big time college sports is supposed to do is help to mold the character of the young men and women who play these contests, to teach sportsmanship. And in this case, Cal has to man up and accept that SU won the game and publicly announce that to SU, their coach and team. We don't play by the rules of Al Davis "Just win, baby". We are Cal, and we should be bigger than that. We will still have the memory, that it was our best game of the season, and we need to put this behind us and move on.

SFCityBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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The error should not be up to Cal or Knowlton to acknowledge, it should be up to the league office. Southern Utah to file a protest and the league to rule.

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What league? The teams play in two different conferences. Did you mean to say the NCAA?

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Yes, the same organization that rules each made free throw is worth one point.

HoopDreams said:

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This is the responsibility of the refs, not Cal

They were notified by the coach about a possible scoring error.

Ref errors are made all the time with fouls, how fouls are implemented, clock errors, and… score

Once the game is called, there is no going back

calumnus said:

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ducky23 said:

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calumnus said:

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MSaviolives said:

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ducky23 said:

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MSaviolives said:

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According to the Chron article (probably behind paywall):

Quote:

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While the result is official by NCAA rules, SUU is hoping to speak to Cal about any number of possible reactions or solutions to the apparent screw-up, including jointly appealing to the NCAA to address the error by a possible replay of the game from the point of the error, when the Thunderbirds were leading 42-34 or 43-34, if you believe what's on the video.

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https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/college/article/Cal-Bears-steal-a-basketball-win-controversy-16642423.php

According to the SUU Athletic Director, she tried to reach Knowlton, but only an underling returned her call and she is insisting that Knowlton talk to her directly. I guess he is big timing her.

That mistake by our scorer is horrible and inexcusable--especially since SUU complained right when it happened but was blown off by the officials. All they had to do was look at the video, but they wouldn't do it.

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It's not clear from the article.

Was the scoreboard just wrong? Or was the score actually wrong?

If it's just the scoreboard being wrong, that happens all the time. I guess it depends how long it took to correct though

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Not just the scoreboard. They did not credit a made free throw at all, and since the game was tied at the end of regulation it went into overtime. Now it is fair to say that if they gave the point correctly, the incident happened earlier enough in the game that we can't predict what would have eventually happened.

SUU has no right to a do over. I guess it would happen only if Knowlton agreed to it--and my guess is...no way. Talk about home cooking!

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They have a moral right but no right under NCAA rules. The score has been recorded. It is done. Sucks for them. We don't want a do over. It took Kelly's best game as a Bear for us to score one less point than them in regulation in a game at Haas. We need all the Ws we can get.

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If those are the rules, what stops a home team from pulling something like this in a game that actually really mattered? Seems suspect

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The refs needed to check. They were asked to. They didn't. Refs have a lot of power (see numerous Big Games when Stanford was shooting for the BCS).

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The scoring error was made by Cal as the home team. It was our responsibility to get it right and correct it during the game. If we didn't it was up to the PAC-12 refs to stop play, review the video, and then make us correct it. Neither happened, we played OT, and the official score was recorded.

This is not a judgement call or a failure to make a call. It's a clerical error which is verifiable and remediable. The home town crew screwed up. Regardless of all the what-ifs we can and should make it right.

My $0.02 worth is that Cal should do the honorable thing and forfeit that game.

boredom said:

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this seems kinda nuts... why is the focus on Cal and not on the refs and scorekeepers. That's several people all of whose core job responsibility starts with watching what is happening in the game and all of whom decided a made free throw was missed. That they had the authority to review and didn't is especially damning - I don't remember ever seeing an argument about whether a free throw was made before so it should've made the refs wonder if something was wrong and taken the minute to review and make sure they had the right score. The refs should get suspended.

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Doesn't Cal provide and supervise the scorekeepers for games at Haas?

Golden One said:

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hoop97 said:

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You can't go back and try to fix in a vacuum. Way too many variables between that moment and the end of the game. It's an unfortunate mistake but the game officials are the ones who made the error in not reviewing.

It's no different than a missed foul that would have awarded someone free throws or a missed out of bounds call which would have given possession to the other team but instead resulted in a score.

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Exactly. Leave the score as it currently is and move on. The problem was not caused by Cal or its players or coach. They shouldn't be penalized for the bonehead decision of the referees. No more discussion or debate is needed.

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The score keepers are provided by Cal and are employees of the Cal AD. The mistake was caused by Cal. It was our mistake. SUU's coaches brought it to our attention and we did not fix it. They brought it to the attention of the refs, who are from our conference, and they did not investigate or fix it. For once, PAC-12 refs backed us.

If this happened to us I'd be pissed. That said, the score is recorded. Playing again doesn't make sense. We are not going to forfeit. I agree with the "move on" but saying Cal was not responsible is not true. We just got away with it.

bearister said:

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Does any outsider get a fair shake in the state of Utah?

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Ha ha - well played

BeachedBear said:

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bluehenbear said:

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Can we forfeit a game after it's been played?

Not fair to SUU who does have tourney hopes and this game should not penalize them.

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Lots of Cal fans didn't hear the entirety of Joe Kapps great quote:

The Bear will not quit. The Bear will not die. The Bear will not forfeit a game due to score table error.

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Or Covid!

Look I understand that integrity is an important virtue. And the initial error was made by a Cal scorekeeper. But the error was 1 point, with 13 MINUTES TO PLAY. To replay the last 13 minutes would be impractical. To amend the game status to no contest would be a possible, but disappointing move. But to forfeit the game would be ludicrous.

If I was Fox and Cal decided to forfeit I would quit.

calumnus said:

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Golden One said:

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hoop97 said:

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You can't go back and try to fix in a vacuum. Way too many variables between that moment and the end of the game. It's an unfortunate mistake but the game officials are the ones who made the error in not reviewing.

It's no different than a missed foul that would have awarded someone free throws or a missed out of bounds call which would have given possession to the other team but instead resulted in a score.

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Exactly. Leave the score as it currently is and move on. The problem was not caused by Cal or its players or coach. They shouldn't be penalized for the bonehead decision of the referees. No more discussion or debate is needed.

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The score keepers are provided by Cal and are employees of the Cal AD. The mistake was caused by Cal. It was our mistake. SUU's coaches brought it to our attention and we did not fix it. They brought it to the attention of the refs, who are from our conference, and they did not investigate or fix it. For once, PAC-12 refs backed us.

If this happened to us I'd be pissed. That said, the score is recorded. Playing again doesn't make sense. We are not going to forfeit. I agree with the "move on" but saying Cal was not responsible is not true. We just got away with it.

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The fact that the refs were pac 12 refs is completely irrelevant. Once the game starts, the refs no longer "belong" to a conference or "belong" to a team. They are officiating an NCAA division 1 game. I find it amazing that the referees felt no need during the game to further investigate this issue, when time after time over the years it is common to see officials holding up a game for SEVERAL minutes to correct a trivial issue such as making an 8 second adjustment on a game clock when there is more than a half of a half to play. I know anybody that watches college basketball can attest to this. Its over. Cal won this one.

Do over!

Using "forfeit" was bad word choice on my part. Neither team should be penalized with a loss. The "no contest" is a more reasonable option. I also agree that SUU should appeal to the conference or the NCAA and not our AD, but our AD should be accepting of whatever decision those organizations come up with (if any).

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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stu said:

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ClayK said:

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There should be consequences -- and Cal should agree to call the game "no contest."

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Cal scorers made a big mistake. Pac-12 officials refused to correct it. SU got screwed. IMHO the right thing to do would be for Knowlton and Fox to agree that SU won in regulation. I'm sure SU would concur. No re-do.

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All true. What I would like to see is Knowlton call a meeting with Fox, the Cal Staff, and the Cal players, and come to agreement over how to handle this. One of the things that sports, even big time college sports is supposed to do is help to mold the character of the young men and women who play these contests, to teach sportsmanship. And in this case, Cal has to man up and accept that SU won the game and publicly announce that to SU, their coach and team. We don't play by the rules of Al Davis "Just win, baby". We are Cal, and we should be bigger than that. We will still have the memory, that it was our best game of the season, and we need to put this behind us and move on.

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So whenever the refs blow a call in our favor, Cal as the bastions of good sport should stop and correct them? Baserunners called safe that know they were tagged out should correct the ump and call themselves out?

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This is not about referees and players.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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Golden One said:

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hoop97 said:

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You can't go back and try to fix in a vacuum. Way too many variables between that moment and the end of the game. It's an unfortunate mistake but the game officials are the ones who made the error in not reviewing.

It's no different than a missed foul that would have awarded someone free throws or a missed out of bounds call which would have given possession to the other team but instead resulted in a score.

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Exactly. Leave the score as it currently is and move on. The problem was not caused by Cal or its players or coach. They shouldn't be penalized for the bonehead decision of the referees. No more discussion or debate is needed.

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The score keepers are provided by Cal and are employees of the Cal AD. The mistake was caused by Cal. It was our mistake. SUU's coaches brought it to our attention and we did not fix it. They brought it to the attention of the refs, who are from our conference, and they did not investigate or fix it. For once, PAC-12 refs backed us.

If this happened to us I'd be pissed. That said, the score is recorded. Playing again doesn't make sense. We are not going to forfeit. I agree with the "move on" but saying Cal was not responsible is not true. We just got away with it.

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The fact that the refs were pac 12 refs is completely irrelevant. Once the game starts, the refs no longer "belong" to a conference or "belong" to a team. They are officiating an NCAA division 1 game. I find it amazing that the referees felt no need during the game to further investigate this issue, when time after time over the years it is common to see officials holding up a game for SEVERAL minutes to correct a trivial issue such as making an 8 second adjustment on a game clock when there is more than a half of a half to play. I know anybody that watches college basketball can attest to this. Its over. Cal won this one.

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I agree that the game is recorded as a Cal win and there is no do over. It's done. I also agree that SUU got screwed. Both can be true.

Imagine we played Kentucky and the Kentucky score keeper did not count one of our baskets and even though we complained to the scorekeeper during the game and to the SEC refs, they refused to review or to count the basket that, on the court, gave Cal the win. We actually scored more points, but only lost because the scorekeeper didn't count our basket and the SEC refs did nothing about it. It would count as a loss on the records, but we would rightly be pissed and would accuse the SEC refs of bias.

Actually it is. The scorekeeper made a mistake but does not have final say on the matter. The referee does, but chose not to look into it.

And as alluded to before, nothing prevented SUU from having its own scorekeeper right there to double check as many teams do.

hoop97 said:

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Actually it is. The scorekeeper made a mistake but does not have final say on the matter. The referee does, but chose not to look into it.

And as alluded to before, nothing prevented SUU from having its own scorekeeper right there to double check as many teams do.

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How do you know they didn't? Someone on their side was keeping track better than Cal's official scorer. When they saw our error (maybe it was their scorekeeper?), they pointed it out, both to the official scorekeeper (provided by Cal) and to the referees. You cannot blame the victim. They did what they were supposed to do. They got screwed. No harm in admitting that.

Doesn't mean they get a do over.

JimSox said:

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polarbear said:

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My $0.02 worth is that Cal should do the honorable thing and forfeit that game.

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I don't think that would be fair to the Cal players who fought like crazy to come back and win that game. There is no telling who would have won had the error been corrected promptly. Re-playing from that point would give SU an unfair advantage, relieving them of the fatigue they suffered late in the game with their six-man rotation. But charging them with a loss is also unfair. I'm for Cal petitioning the NCAA to declare the game a no contest. Do the right thing. And discipline the refs and scorekeepers.

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Yes a "no contest" seems like a fair compromise to me.

hoop97 said:

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Actually it is. The scorekeeper made a mistake but does not have final say on the matter. The referee does, but chose not to look into it.

And as alluded to before, nothing prevented SUU from having its own scorekeeper right there to double check as many teams do.

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I was responding to a post about reversing refs' calls. I feel this is all about the scorekeeper. He made the mistake. He is ours. That is why I think we should own it. I'd understand if SU appealed it to the NCAA. But I agree with Jim Sox that a "no contest" would be an equitable result. No team gets a win, but the players and teams don't lose their stats. A win or a loss doesn't mean much in a non-conference game, except to affect the RPIs of both teams a little. Call it a scrimmage. And it was a helluva scrimmage for the fans, anyway.

SFCityBear said:

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hoop97 said:

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Actually it is. The scorekeeper made a mistake but does not have final say on the matter. The referee does, but chose not to look into it.

And as alluded to before, nothing prevented SUU from having its own scorekeeper right there to double check as many teams do.

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I was responding to a post about reversing refs' calls. I feel this is all about the scorekeeper. He made the mistake. He is ours. That is why I think we should own it. I'd understand if SU appealed it to the NCAA. But I agree with Jim Sox that a "no contest" would be an equitable result. No team gets a win, but the players and teams don't lose their stats. A win or a loss doesn't mean much in a non-conference game, except to affect the RPIs of both teams a little. Call it a scrimmage. And it was a helluva scrimmage for the fans, anyway.

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Yeah, I think that would be fair. I wouldn't mind if we did that.