SFCityBear said:

---

Thanks for the mention. I don't like to make predictions, because I'm usually wrong when I make them, and I honestly don't remember predicting improvement for Lars. I defended him, because he was taking so many shots on the Bear Insider. My point was that I've seen enough basketball to know that some big men take a longer time to develop and blossom. For most big men, they don't start showing signs until the junior year or even the senior year. A couple of recent Cal players come to mind, Richard Solomon and Robert Thurman. Consider how athletic Solomon was when he arrived at Cal. But he was physically and emotionally immature and took some time to just grow up. And he envisioned himself as a stretch 4, who would rather hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3's than mix it up with other big bodies in the paint. Montgomery finally convinced him he could be a dominant center in the paint. nngHe showed signs of emerging in his junior year, and became a dominant center in the conference. Thurman also became a strong center for Cal by his final year. While I am really pleased by Lars' improvement this year, I am now really looking forward to seeing him give Cal good minutes this year, and I think we all might be really pleased with how he does next year.

As for Brown, I agree that he has to play, mostly for his defense, which is excellent, but also as a point guard on offense, mainly because we don't have anyone else capable of playing the position (unless Roberson, who we haven't seen yet, can play PG). Hyder gives us very little that I can see so far, and Shepherd is needed at the two guard, where we have no one else who could play there except maybe Celestine, but he does not seem ready to contribute 30 minutes and score a lot of points. What I can't stand is Brown's forays into the lane, which mostly result in getting tied up, a turnover, and when he does get a shot off, it is often wild with little chance of scoring. Defenses don't bother fouling him, because he is not likely to score anyway. If he must shoot, I would much rather see him shoot threes than drive the lane, because it has a better chance of the ball going in the basket. I wish he would concentrate on starting plays, passing, and making assists. He had 7 in each of 2 games so far, so he is capable of doing it.

As for the pick and pop, we don't have many successful plays in the playbook so far. But the season is still young, and we are improving a little. I've been saying for 2 years now that Grant needs to learn how to finish at the rim, and needs to drive to the basket much more often. That will open up his perimeter game. And Fox has been around long enough to know a lot of plays, so it is up to the coaches to teach these plays, and up to the players to run them. Once Fox settles on a rotation, then things should improve in that regard.

I know no one will agree with this, but I'd like to see Klonaras get a few more minutes. He is very scrappy, and seems to always know where the loose balls will be and he aggressively goes after them and gets them.
Finally, I was pretty high on Alajiki, and I am wondering why he is not playing much, and doesn't seem to be playing as hard as he was, when he does get in there.

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4thGenCal said:

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SFCityBear said:

---

Thanks for the mention. I don't like to make predictions, because I'm usually wrong when I make them, and I honestly don't remember predicting improvement for Lars. I defended him, because he was taking so many shots on the Bear Insider. My point was that I've seen enough basketball to know that some big men take a longer time to develop and blossom. For most big men, they don't start showing signs until the junior year or even the senior year. A couple of recent Cal players come to mind, Richard Solomon and Robert Thurman. Consider how athletic Solomon was when he arrived at Cal. But he was physically and emotionally immature and took some time to just grow up. And he envisioned himself as a stretch 4, who would rather hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3's than mix it up with other big bodies in the paint. Montgomery finally convinced him he could be a dominant center in the paint. nngHe showed signs of emerging in his junior year, and became a dominant center in the conference. Thurman also became a strong center for Cal by his final year. While I am really pleased by Lars' improvement this year, I am now really looking forward to seeing him give Cal good minutes this year, and I think we all might be really pleased with how he does next year.

As for Brown, I agree that he has to play, mostly for his defense, which is excellent, but also as a point guard on offense, mainly because we don't have anyone else capable of playing the position (unless Roberson, who we haven't seen yet, can play PG). Hyder gives us very little that I can see so far, and Shepherd is needed at the two guard, where we have no one else who could play there except maybe Celestine, but he does not seem ready to contribute 30 minutes and score a lot of points. What I can't stand is Brown's forays into the lane, which mostly result in getting tied up, a turnover, and when he does get a shot off, it is often wild with little chance of scoring. Defenses don't bother fouling him, because he is not likely to score anyway. If he must shoot, I would much rather see him shoot threes than drive the lane, because it has a better chance of the ball going in the basket. I wish he would concentrate on starting plays, passing, and making assists. He had 7 in each of 2 games so far, so he is capable of doing it.

As for the pick and pop, we don't have many successful plays in the playbook so far. But the season is still young, and we are improving a little. I've been saying for 2 years now that Grant needs to learn how to finish at the rim, and needs to drive to the basket much more often. That will open up his perimeter game. And Fox has been around long enough to know a lot of plays, so it is up to the coaches to teach these plays, and up to the players to run them. Once Fox settles on a rotation, then things should improve in that regard.

I know no one will agree with this, but I'd like to see Klonaras get a few more minutes. He is very scrappy, and seems to always know where the loose balls will be and he aggressively goes after them and gets them.
Finally, I was pretty high on Alajiki, and I am wondering why he is not playing much, and doesn't seem to be playing as hard as he was, when he does get in there.

---

Different views and the dialogue is good and respectful. Lars is better, but marginally and it was clear he could not stop/slow down the Fresno post player - like his effort and willingness to be physical, still needs to react quicker/anticipate passes coming to him (too often slow reactions and the ball is fumbled). Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity. Regarding Klonaras - not a competitive option. Slow footed, lacking athleticism to create a shot and a poor defender. Staff unfortunately made a recruiting mistake for this level of conference/competition. Btw a solid young man/academically minded - but only on the roster because the conference rules protect scholarship players and He wants to get his Cal degree (good for him)

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89Bear said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

Thanks for the mention. I don't like to make predictions, because I'm usually wrong when I make them, and I honestly don't remember predicting improvement for Lars. I defended him, because he was taking so many shots on the Bear Insider. My point was that I've seen enough basketball to know that some big men take a longer time to develop and blossom. For most big men, they don't start showing signs until the junior year or even the senior year. A couple of recent Cal players come to mind, Richard Solomon and Robert Thurman. Consider how athletic Solomon was when he arrived at Cal. But he was physically and emotionally immature and took some time to just grow up. And he envisioned himself as a stretch 4, who would rather hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3's than mix it up with other big bodies in the paint. Montgomery finally convinced him he could be a dominant center in the paint. nngHe showed signs of emerging in his junior year, and became a dominant center in the conference. Thurman also became a strong center for Cal by his final year. While I am really pleased by Lars' improvement this year, I am now really looking forward to seeing him give Cal good minutes this year, and I think we all might be really pleased with how he does next year.

As for Brown, I agree that he has to play, mostly for his defense, which is excellent, but also as a point guard on offense, mainly because we don't have anyone else capable of playing the position (unless Roberson, who we haven't seen yet, can play PG). Hyder gives us very little that I can see so far, and Shepherd is needed at the two guard, where we have no one else who could play there except maybe Celestine, but he does not seem ready to contribute 30 minutes and score a lot of points. What I can't stand is Brown's forays into the lane, which mostly result in getting tied up, a turnover, and when he does get a shot off, it is often wild with little chance of scoring. Defenses don't bother fouling him, because he is not likely to score anyway. If he must shoot, I would much rather see him shoot threes than drive the lane, because it has a better chance of the ball going in the basket. I wish he would concentrate on starting plays, passing, and making assists. He had 7 in each of 2 games so far, so he is capable of doing it.

As for the pick and pop, we don't have many successful plays in the playbook so far. But the season is still young, and we are improving a little. I've been saying for 2 years now that Grant needs to learn how to finish at the rim, and needs to drive to the basket much more often. That will open up his perimeter game. And Fox has been around long enough to know a lot of plays, so it is up to the coaches to teach these plays, and up to the players to run them. Once Fox settles on a rotation, then things should improve in that regard.

I know no one will agree with this, but I'd like to see Klonaras get a few more minutes. He is very scrappy, and seems to always know where the loose balls will be and he aggressively goes after them and gets them.
Finally, I was pretty high on Alajiki, and I am wondering why he is not playing much, and doesn't seem to be playing as hard as he was, when he does get in there.

---

Different views and the dialogue is good and respectful. Lars is better, but marginally and it was clear he could not stop/slow down the Fresno post player - like his effort and willingness to be physical, still needs to react quicker/anticipate passes coming to him (too often slow reactions and the ball is fumbled). Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity. Regarding Klonaras - not a competitive option. Slow footed, lacking athleticism to create a shot and a poor defender. Staff unfortunately made a recruiting mistake for this level of conference/competition. Btw a solid young man/academically minded - but only on the roster because the conference rules protect scholarship players and He wants to get his Cal degree (good for him)

---

I really think Celestine is gonna be a player!! I like what I see from him.
What are you thinking this year will be like for him?

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

Thanks for the mention. I don't like to make predictions, because I'm usually wrong when I make them, and I honestly don't remember predicting improvement for Lars. I defended him, because he was taking so many shots on the Bear Insider. My point was that I've seen enough basketball to know that some big men take a longer time to develop and blossom. For most big men, they don't start showing signs until the junior year or even the senior year. A couple of recent Cal players come to mind, Richard Solomon and Robert Thurman. Consider how athletic Solomon was when he arrived at Cal. But he was physically and emotionally immature and took some time to just grow up. And he envisioned himself as a stretch 4, who would rather hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3's than mix it up with other big bodies in the paint. Montgomery finally convinced him he could be a dominant center in the paint. nngHe showed signs of emerging in his junior year, and became a dominant center in the conference. Thurman also became a strong center for Cal by his final year. While I am really pleased by Lars' improvement this year, I am now really looking forward to seeing him give Cal good minutes this year, and I think we all might be really pleased with how he does next year.

As for Brown, I agree that he has to play, mostly for his defense, which is excellent, but also as a point guard on offense, mainly because we don't have anyone else capable of playing the position (unless Roberson, who we haven't seen yet, can play PG). Hyder gives us very little that I can see so far, and Shepherd is needed at the two guard, where we have no one else who could play there except maybe Celestine, but he does not seem ready to contribute 30 minutes and score a lot of points. What I can't stand is Brown's forays into the lane, which mostly result in getting tied up, a turnover, and when he does get a shot off, it is often wild with little chance of scoring. Defenses don't bother fouling him, because he is not likely to score anyway. If he must shoot, I would much rather see him shoot threes than drive the lane, because it has a better chance of the ball going in the basket. I wish he would concentrate on starting plays, passing, and making assists. He had 7 in each of 2 games so far, so he is capable of doing it.

As for the pick and pop, we don't have many successful plays in the playbook so far. But the season is still young, and we are improving a little. I've been saying for 2 years now that Grant needs to learn how to finish at the rim, and needs to drive to the basket much more often. That will open up his perimeter game. And Fox has been around long enough to know a lot of plays, so it is up to the coaches to teach these plays, and up to the players to run them. Once Fox settles on a rotation, then things should improve in that regard.

I know no one will agree with this, but I'd like to see Klonaras get a few more minutes. He is very scrappy, and seems to always know where the loose balls will be and he aggressively goes after them and gets them.
Finally, I was pretty high on Alajiki, and I am wondering why he is not playing much, and doesn't seem to be playing as hard as he was, when he does get in there.

---

Different views and the dialogue is good and respectful. Lars is better, but marginally and it was clear he could not stop/slow down the Fresno post player - like his effort and willingness to be physical, still needs to react quicker/anticipate passes coming to him (too often slow reactions and the ball is fumbled). Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity. Regarding Klonaras - not a competitive option. Slow footed, lacking athleticism to create a shot and a poor defender. Staff unfortunately made a recruiting mistake for this level of conference/competition. Btw a solid young man/academically minded - but only on the roster because the conference rules protect scholarship players and He wants to get his Cal degree (good for him)

---

As to Lars, it was one of his weaker games. Still he was up against a very good player, Robinson, who can make threes, and that stretches the floor for the defense, whether it is Kelly or Lars playing center. I looked at the play-by-play, and during the time when Lars and Robinson faced each other, Robinson was 1-4 from the floor, scored only 6 points, three of them from the free throw line. He got only one rebound, while Lars got 4. Robinson did get 2 assists, a steal, and a block. Lars had 2 fouls, while Robinson had none. It appeared to me that he was handling Robinson fairly well, but was helped by a spectacular block by Kuany on a dunk attempt. Robinson got 19 points against Kelly and whoever else might have been guarding him.

I agree on Brown being one of the most important, but so far I think there are 4 of them in the mix: Kelly, Brown, Anticevich, and Shepherd. Shepherd looks like he knows what to do, but he is streaky. Either he is hot that night or not. And I am hoping that Celestine gets over his physical problems, because it seems to be limiting his minutes, and I fully expected him to be a starter or major contributor this year. He has all the tools. One thing that concerns me is that Fox seems to be riding him hard, which I haven't seen but others have told me they have seen it a couple times in games and at practice. One thing about getting on a player is that the coach has to follow that by continuing to show confidence in the player, like after scolding him, putting him right back in the game, for example. If you ride a player too much or too hard, they might opt to play elsewhere, and I would hate to lose a player like him.

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4thGenCal said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

Thanks for the mention. I don't like to make predictions, because I'm usually wrong when I make them, and I honestly don't remember predicting improvement for Lars. I defended him, because he was taking so many shots on the Bear Insider. My point was that I've seen enough basketball to know that some big men take a longer time to develop and blossom. For most big men, they don't start showing signs until the junior year or even the senior year. A couple of recent Cal players come to mind, Richard Solomon and Robert Thurman. Consider how athletic Solomon was when he arrived at Cal. But he was physically and emotionally immature and took some time to just grow up. And he envisioned himself as a stretch 4, who would rather hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3's than mix it up with other big bodies in the paint. Montgomery finally convinced him he could be a dominant center in the paint. nngHe showed signs of emerging in his junior year, and became a dominant center in the conference. Thurman also became a strong center for Cal by his final year. While I am really pleased by Lars' improvement this year, I am now really looking forward to seeing him give Cal good minutes this year, and I think we all might be really pleased with how he does next year.

As for Brown, I agree that he has to play, mostly for his defense, which is excellent, but also as a point guard on offense, mainly because we don't have anyone else capable of playing the position (unless Roberson, who we haven't seen yet, can play PG). Hyder gives us very little that I can see so far, and Shepherd is needed at the two guard, where we have no one else who could play there except maybe Celestine, but he does not seem ready to contribute 30 minutes and score a lot of points. What I can't stand is Brown's forays into the lane, which mostly result in getting tied up, a turnover, and when he does get a shot off, it is often wild with little chance of scoring. Defenses don't bother fouling him, because he is not likely to score anyway. If he must shoot, I would much rather see him shoot threes than drive the lane, because it has a better chance of the ball going in the basket. I wish he would concentrate on starting plays, passing, and making assists. He had 7 in each of 2 games so far, so he is capable of doing it.

As for the pick and pop, we don't have many successful plays in the playbook so far. But the season is still young, and we are improving a little. I've been saying for 2 years now that Grant needs to learn how to finish at the rim, and needs to drive to the basket much more often. That will open up his perimeter game. And Fox has been around long enough to know a lot of plays, so it is up to the coaches to teach these plays, and up to the players to run them. Once Fox settles on a rotation, then things should improve in that regard.

I know no one will agree with this, but I'd like to see Klonaras get a few more minutes. He is very scrappy, and seems to always know where the loose balls will be and he aggressively goes after them and gets them.
Finally, I was pretty high on Alajiki, and I am wondering why he is not playing much, and doesn't seem to be playing as hard as he was, when he does get in there.

---

Different views and the dialogue is good and respectful. Lars is better, but marginally and it was clear he could not stop/slow down the Fresno post player - like his effort and willingness to be physical, still needs to react quicker/anticipate passes coming to him (too often slow reactions and the ball is fumbled). Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity. Regarding Klonaras - not a competitive option. Slow footed, lacking athleticism to create a shot and a poor defender. Staff unfortunately made a recruiting mistake for this level of conference/competition. Btw a solid young man/academically minded - but only on the roster because the conference rules protect scholarship players and He wants to get his Cal degree (good for him)

---

As to Lars, it was one of his weaker games. Still he was up against a very good player, Robinson, who can make threes, and that stretches the floor for the defense, whether it is Kelly or Lars playing center. I looked at the play-by-play, and during the time when Lars and Robinson faced each other, Robinson was 1-4 from the floor, scored only 6 points, three of them from the free throw line. He got only one rebound, while Lars got 4. Robinson did get 2 assists, a steal, and a block. Lars had 2 fouls, while Robinson had none. It appeared to me that he was handling Robinson fairly well, but was helped by a spectacular block by Kuany on a dunk attempt. Robinson got 19 points against Kelly and whoever else might have been guarding him.

I agree on Brown being one of the most important, but so far I think there are 4 of them in the mix: Kelly, Brown, Anticevich, and Shepherd. Shepherd looks like he knows what to do, but he is streaky. Either he is hot that night or not. And I am hoping that Celestine gets over his physical problems, because it seems to be limiting his minutes, and I fully expected him to be a starter or major contributor this year. He has all the tools. One thing that concerns me is that Fox seems to be riding him hard, which I haven't seen but others have told me they have seen it a couple times in games and at practice. One thing about getting on a player is that the coach has to follow that by continuing to show confidence in the player, like after scolding him, putting him right back in the game, for example. If you ride a player too much or too hard, they might opt to play elsewhere, and I would hate to lose a player like him.

---

Observant on Coach Fox riding Jalen a bit more than I like to see - but the reason is that coach believes that Jalen needs to play thru his soreness and not succumb mentally. He sees the talent and needs him to be more aggressive and assertive with and without the ball. Spot on comments on the main 4 players. Regarding Lars, while slightly more confident, he is still extremely slow on reacting to catching passes, anticipating loose balls/and simply being instinctive on shot openings (brief as they are). Nice to a fault, not a mean streak in him and has slow footwork. Net result is a serviceable back up for 8-10 minutes a game, but much more, otherwise the weaknesses are illuminated.

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puget sound cal fan said:

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Grant plays like a 6'3" shooting guard rather than a 6"8" PF.

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KoreAmBear said:

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puget sound cal fan said:

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Grant plays like a 6'3" shooting guard rather than a 6"8" PF.

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And his role right now should be as SF.

I believe the next step is for him to take the path that Theo took. Theo was basically a SG marksman his freshman season. But as the team needed him during his career, he became Cal's SF slasher and went to the rim often, even though that was not his game to start with. However, Grant is not as athletic as Theo, although not by much. I do think it would help, and it would also get him to the line.

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4thGenCal said:

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Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

---

One thing I forgot to mention is that I fully agree with you that Brown needs to develop a floater. A little pull up jumper would also help, although if he continues to approach the basket with maximum speed, that might not be the best option. but he needs other ways to score inside. In any case, I'd be surprised if he developed a floater this season, because summer is traditionally when players try to develop new shots. There is so much going on during the season with team practices, watching film, and studies, that there is little time for a player to get off by himself and practice a new shot, and then find teammates to work with and defend against it. But he needs to do this now or over the summer.

I remember going to a Warrior-Celtic game at the Cow Palace in the '60s, and sitting at the floor just behind the basket, where the great Tommy Heinsohn went off for 44 points, much of it near the basket on a dazzling array of shots. It was quite a feat, when you consider that if Heinsohn got by his man, there was Bill Russell protecting the rim and waiting for him. One of the Warrior players asked Heinsohn, if a particular shot was a new one, because he hadn't seen Heinsohn use it before. Heinsohn replied, "Yes, it is. Every year, I have to invent a new shot, because defenders have figured out how to stop most of my other shots."

Brown is very creative dribbling the ball, and some of his passes are creative. Now he needs to get with the rest of the program of being a basketball player and create or master some other shots.

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

---

One thing I forgot to mention is that I fully agree with you that Brown needs to develop a floater. A little pull up jumper would also help, although if he continues to approach the basket with maximum speed, that might not be the best option. but he needs other ways to score inside. In any case, I'd be surprised if he developed a floater this season, because summer is traditionally when players try to develop new shots. There is so much going on during the season with team practices, watching film, and studies, that there is little time for a player to get off by himself and practice a new shot, and then find teammates to work with and defend against it. But he needs to do this now or over the summer.

I remember going to a Warrior-Celtic game at the Cow Palace in the '60s, and sitting at the floor just behind the basket, where the great Tommy Heinsohn went off for 44 points, much of it near the basket on a dazzling array of shots. It was quite a feat, when you consider that if Heinsohn got by his man, there was Bill Russell protecting the rim and waiting for him. One of the Warrior players asked Heinsohn, if a particular shot was a new one, because he hadn't seen Heinsohn use it before. Heinsohn replied, "Yes, it is. Every year, I have to invent a new shot, because defenders have figured out how to stop most of my other shots."

Brown is very creative dribbling the ball, and some of his passes are creative. Now he needs to get with the rest of the program of being a basketball player and create or master some other shots.

---

The above last paragraph is a great "bottom line" for Joel Brown. I love his effort and some aspects of his game, but, in his third year, I wish he were a little further along than he is (specifically scoring and facilitating). Hopefully some of that will come over the next couple of months.

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KoreAmBear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

---

One thing I forgot to mention is that I fully agree with you that Brown needs to develop a floater. A little pull up jumper would also help, although if he continues to approach the basket with maximum speed, that might not be the best option. but he needs other ways to score inside. In any case, I'd be surprised if he developed a floater this season, because summer is traditionally when players try to develop new shots. There is so much going on during the season with team practices, watching film, and studies, that there is little time for a player to get off by himself and practice a new shot, and then find teammates to work with and defend against it. But he needs to do this now or over the summer.

I remember going to a Warrior-Celtic game at the Cow Palace in the '60s, and sitting at the floor just behind the basket, where the great Tommy Heinsohn went off for 44 points, much of it near the basket on a dazzling array of shots. It was quite a feat, when you consider that if Heinsohn got by his man, there was Bill Russell protecting the rim and waiting for him. One of the Warrior players asked Heinsohn, if a particular shot was a new one, because he hadn't seen Heinsohn use it before. Heinsohn replied, "Yes, it is. Every year, I have to invent a new shot, because defenders have figured out how to stop most of my other shots."

Brown is very creative dribbling the ball, and some of his passes are creative. Now he needs to get with the rest of the program of being a basketball player and create or master some other shots.

---

The above last paragraph is a great "bottom line" for Joel Brown. I love his effort and some aspects of his game, but, in his third year, I wish he were a little further along than he is (specifically scoring and facilitating). Hopefully some of that will come over the next couple of months.

---

I am a little perplexed that I have never seen Joel attempt a runner or even a mid-range jumper on a jump stop or pullup. I've only seen him go to the rim or shoot three pointers, pretty much.

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• Celestine - tantalized me last year. So far this year, looks uncomfortable and completely out of sync. One of you said he's still recovering from surgery, which would explain it. If so, why not redshirt the guy? I don't always like the idea of coaches getting players to "play through" pain. They don't know what the guy is feeling and they aren't going to have to live through possibly life-long consequences of not allowing something to heal completely. As a runner for 40+ years, I can tell you that you can't "play through" joint-related pain as though it doesn't exist.
• Brown - He certainly improved from Year-1 to Year-2. I don't see the same jump this year. I do think he's slightly better at finishing his drives, but I don't have the data to back that up. Good points regarding the need for a floater or pull-up jumper. Came to Cal with similar attributes to Jorge but has not improved as consistently.
• Lars - yep, a little better. He fights a little harder and his little hook shot is pretty reliable. I think his slow reaction isn't physical - he doesn't anticipate what's likely to happen so can't react quickly when it does - a function of not having played the game for very long. It's a good thing Kelly can play more minutes now because Lars really shouldn't be on the floor for more than 10 per game. He has good form on his free-throws, so I'm not sure why the % is so low - maybe not really visualizing the ball going through the hoop on each shot.
• Grant - he's certainly trying a couple more drives and mid-range pullups each game with some success recently. He sets some good screens which are rarely well-used. The pick-and-pop idea is a good one and should play to his strengths. Of course, Fox has to officially include them in his "highly structured offense" or they'll never happen.

KoreAmBear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

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One thing I forgot to mention is that I fully agree with you that Brown needs to develop a floater. A little pull up jumper would also help, although if he continues to approach the basket with maximum speed, that might not be the best option. but he needs other ways to score inside. In any case, I'd be surprised if he developed a floater this season, because summer is traditionally when players try to develop new shots. There is so much going on during the season with team practices, watching film, and studies, that there is little time for a player to get off by himself and practice a new shot, and then find teammates to work with and defend against it. But he needs to do this now or over the summer.

I remember going to a Warrior-Celtic game at the Cow Palace in the '60s, and sitting at the floor just behind the basket, where the great Tommy Heinsohn went off for 44 points, much of it near the basket on a dazzling array of shots. It was quite a feat, when you consider that if Heinsohn got by his man, there was Bill Russell protecting the rim and waiting for him. One of the Warrior players asked Heinsohn, if a particular shot was a new one, because he hadn't seen Heinsohn use it before. Heinsohn replied, "Yes, it is. Every year, I have to invent a new shot, because defenders have figured out how to stop most of my other shots."

Brown is very creative dribbling the ball, and some of his passes are creative. Now he needs to get with the rest of the program of being a basketball player and create or master some other shots.

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The above last paragraph is a great "bottom line" for Joel Brown. I love his effort and some aspects of his game, but, in his third year, I wish he were a little further along than he is (specifically scoring and facilitating). Hopefully some of that will come over the next couple of months.

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I am a little perplexed that I have never seen Joel attempt a runner or even a mid-range jumper on a jump stop or pullup. I've only seen him go to the rim or shoot three pointers, pretty much.

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bearmanpg said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Big C said:

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SFCityBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Joel Brown is definitely one of the top 3 most important players on the team - his +- thus far is very good and other than one poor game, has been overall very effective. Teams can't press him/team when he gets the ball after a made basket. his defense and effort level is Jorge G like and he can hit the open 3 decently. No debate that he does over penetrate going to the rim and while sometimes successful (not last night) he does get blocked too many times. Desperately needs to develop a floater - which even if missed gives the Bigs a put back opportunity.

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One thing I forgot to mention is that I fully agree with you that Brown needs to develop a floater. A little pull up jumper would also help, although if he continues to approach the basket with maximum speed, that might not be the best option. but he needs other ways to score inside. In any case, I'd be surprised if he developed a floater this season, because summer is traditionally when players try to develop new shots. There is so much going on during the season with team practices, watching film, and studies, that there is little time for a player to get off by himself and practice a new shot, and then find teammates to work with and defend against it. But he needs to do this now or over the summer.

I remember going to a Warrior-Celtic game at the Cow Palace in the '60s, and sitting at the floor just behind the basket, where the great Tommy Heinsohn went off for 44 points, much of it near the basket on a dazzling array of shots. It was quite a feat, when you consider that if Heinsohn got by his man, there was Bill Russell protecting the rim and waiting for him. One of the Warrior players asked Heinsohn, if a particular shot was a new one, because he hadn't seen Heinsohn use it before. Heinsohn replied, "Yes, it is. Every year, I have to invent a new shot, because defenders have figured out how to stop most of my other shots."

Brown is very creative dribbling the ball, and some of his passes are creative. Now he needs to get with the rest of the program of being a basketball player and create or master some other shots.

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The above last paragraph is a great "bottom line" for Joel Brown. I love his effort and some aspects of his game, but, in his third year, I wish he were a little further along than he is (specifically scoring and facilitating). Hopefully some of that will come over the next couple of months.

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I am a little perplexed that I have never seen Joel attempt a runner or even a mid-range jumper on a jump stop or pullup. I've only seen him go to the rim or shoot three pointers, pretty much.

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I'm more perplexed with Bill Russell trying to stop his teammate from scoring....of course, if Heinsoln went for 44 it's obvious the Warriors needed help....

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HearstMining said:

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Lots of excellent, thoughtful discussion here. My thoughts:

• Celestine - tantalized me last year. So far this year, looks uncomfortable and completely out of sync. One of you said he's still recovering from surgery, which would explain it. If so, why not redshirt the guy? I don't always like the idea of coaches getting players to "play through" pain. They don't know what the guy is feeling and they aren't going to have to live through possibly life-long consequences of not allowing something to heal completely. As a runner for 40+ years, I can tell you that you can't "play through" joint-related pain as though it doesn't exist.
• Brown - He certainly improved from Year-1 to Year-2. I don't see the same jump this year. I do think he's slightly better at finishing his drives, but I don't have the data to back that up. Good points regarding the need for a floater or pull-up jumper. Came to Cal with similar attributes to Jorge but has not improved as consistently.
• Lars - yep, a little better. He fights a little harder and his little hook shot is pretty reliable. I think his slow reaction isn't physical - he doesn't anticipate what's likely to happen so can't react quickly when it does - a function of not having played the game for very long. It's a good thing Kelly can play more minutes now because Lars really shouldn't be on the floor for more than 10 per game. He has good form on his free-throws, so I'm not sure why the % is so low - maybe not really visualizing the ball going through the hoop on each shot.
• Grant - he's certainly trying a couple more drives and mid-range pullups each game with some success recently. He sets some good screens which are rarely well-used. The pick-and-pop idea is a good one and should play to his strengths. Of course, Fox has to officially include them in his "highly structured offense" or they'll never happen.

Hoop Dreams mentioned Cal players telegraphing their passes and I agree. In addition, they just miss opportunities. With today's switching defenses, a rolling screener is only open for a split second and Cal players miss that window, if they even look for it.

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stu said:

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Betley had a nose for the ball - he just seemed to know where it would come down.

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