How about a little love for Mark Fox?

13,843 Views | 140 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by calumnus
SFCityBear
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Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected Cal with no Andre Kelly to crush a very good Oregon team in their gym.

Yes, Jordan Shepherd had the best game of his career. He had never scored 30 before, and had very few 20 point games before. Not only that, he shot 60% for the game, 67% from three, 87% on free throws. He was in the zone. He had 3 nice assists, 4 steals, and 7 rebounds.

But it was Fox who can't recruit, who brought him to Berkeley, and the offense that Fox used for this game, the high ball screen was perfect for the skills of Shepherd, which was able to get Shepherd openings in the paint over and over. Shepherd and the team executed the offense perfectly. Lars had one of his best games.

But more than all that, it was Cal's defense that rattled Oregon, forcing them to take bad shots, and making them nervous when they did have an open look. It was defense that won that game, coupled with Oregon's poor shooting. They sure did not look like a team that beat USC and UCLA back to back. This defense is Mark Fox's defense, and I think we might want to give Fox some of the credit for this win, coaching the players in his offense and defense, and the players executing it all so well.

Cal basketball is really fun to watch when this kind of thing happens.
SFCityBear
evanluck
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For sure! Credit to Coach Fox. Even if he is not the long term solution, he has the Bears playing hard and with heart! Teams that can use the screen effectively are hard to defend. This, along with the defense can be our identity and lead to more wins and moments of satisfaction to reward the players for their hard work and sticking together as a team.

Go Bears!
stu
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I'll give Fox credit for getting our guys to play as well as they can in the Oregon win (and more than a few other games). And for recruiting Shepherd. Not to mention great academics and no hint of any scandal.

However I don't think our performance at Oregon is likely to become the norm. If Shepherd scores 18 instead of 33 we lose. And who will replace Shepherd next season? AFAIK we have no remaining scholarships to offer.
Chapman_is_Gone
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Absolutely not. The program is at a multi-decade trough and Fox is a one key reason for that. He is unable to attract talent to Berkeley.

I also find him very unlikable and don't want him heading my favorite college basketball program.
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Big C
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As our Head Coach, in his third season, Fox bears most all of the responsibility for where we're at. When we play well, he gets some credit. (Awesome road trip!) When we play poorly, he gets some blame. We are currently 11-15.
Big C
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SFCity, we got Colorado and Utah comin' in to the Haas later this week (and I hope to be at one or maybe both):

Not to give them any ideas, but when their coaches see our success with the high screens, what can/will they do to counter that and what can Fox do to counter their counter?
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

Absolutely not. The program is at a multi-decade trough and Fox is a one key reason for that. He is unable to attract talent to Berkeley.

I also find him very unlikable and don't want him heading my favorite college basketball program.
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This HTML code kick you've been on lately is kind of weird in an endearingly geeky sort of way.
stu
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

This HTML code kick you've been on lately is kind of weird in an endearingly geeky sort of way.
That's not HTML but I'm not sure what it is. Possibly Angular JS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AngularJS
ducky23
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A little love for fox? Why?

If this were a young team and we had just swept the Oregon school, then there would be something to get excited about. But we lose almost all of our impact players next year. The next three years will most likely be worse (not better) than his first three years.

The biggest worry with fox was not that he couldn't coach but that he couldn't recruit. Not surprisingly, that has come to fruition. Next year we will have a roster of barely marginal Pac-12 talent. What is there to get excited about? Where can we find any optimism at all?

Getting this sweep only prolongs our basketball hell. I'll give fox credit when he can bring in a legitimate recruiting class.
oskidunker
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Live in the moment. You may not be here next year.
Go Bears!
KoreAmBear
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I will give credit to Mark Fox that he has enough leadership and sincerity not to lose the team after another long losing streak. The players seem to really think he is genuine, which is definitely admirable. To basically blow out Oregon on the road without Dre, was pretty amazing. The road sweep at the Oregons was definitely a nice surprise and encouraging.

I'll stop there as I have made my previous points about Fox pretty clear. I would prefer Dennis Gates save an Elite 8 run that Oregon State had. And even then, look what happened to Oregon State. It could be something similar for us next year, without the Elite 8 run.

In any case, congrats to Coach Fox and the players this weekend. They did a great job.
dimitrig
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Credit where credit is due.

Just win, baby.

calumnus
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KoreAmBear said:

I will give credit to Mark Fox that he has enough leadership and sincerity not to lose the team after another long losing streak. The players seem to really think he is genuine, which is definitely admirable. To basically blow out Oregon on the road without Dre, was pretty amazing. The road sweep at the Oregons was definitely a nice surprise and encouraging.

I'll stop there as I have made my previous points about Fox pretty clear. I would prefer Dennis Gates save an Elite 8 run that Oregon State had. And even then, look what happened to Oregon State. It could be something similar for us next year, without the Elite 8 run.

In any case, congrats to Coach Fox and the players this weekend. They did a great job.


Well said my friend

I'm not sure I would characterize Oregon as "very good." They are good, a bubble team, but we have probably burst their bubble.
bearister
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oskidunker said:

Live in the moment. You may not be here next year.


Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Bobodeluxe
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BOOM,
drizzlybear
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Bobodeluxe said:

BOOM,


BOOM DOOM!
BeachedBear
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Agree with SFCity that the Oregon game showcased what a pretty good coach/staff can do. That is to scout, prepare and execute on a game plan against a key opponent. The result against Oregon seemed like a master-class. However, the win against OSU was not quite as masterful. And many of the other games during the losing streak demonstrated that scouting and planning without almost perfect execution still results in a loss (but those were some pretty good teams).

BTW - Monty (as well as a few other coaches) have said that Oregon and Altman are one of the easiest teams to scout and plan for - but VERY hard to execute against because of their talent and Altman gets them to generally play at a very high emotional level.

Credit definitely deserved for this staff in that aspect of the game. Another key aspect is team culture - which has a huge impact on the team player together and playing hard - particularly during a stretch against clearly superior talent.

But the talent gap and speed of change is woefully inadequate at this level of competition. I've always considered Fox a transitional hire and if he has established a culture that can help attract a better fit, then I will thank him for it and wish him well on his next adventure.

socaltownie
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Mark Fox honestly frustrates the crap out of me. We KNOW he can coach. That was clear year 1. His players improve and he can get them playing pretty decent team basketball.

And yet his teams are bottom 1/3 of the Pac 12 (if not lower) in respect to talent. We do not even sniff 4 Star talent. We are bummed when some average guard from Moraga doesn't pick up - a program that used to compete with UCLA and Zona for talent.

I know some people want to be in an alternative university but TALENT is the top issue for modern college basketball. Until Fox shows he can recruit at a upper half level we are what we are - a program that will NOT make the dance and is unlikely to make the NIT. And sadly that is precisely the kind of team that Fox had a Georgia as well ;-(
Take care of your Chicken
BeachedBear
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socaltownie said:

Mark Fox honestly frustrates the crap out of me. We KNOW he can coach. That was clear year 1. His players improve and he can get them playing pretty decent team basketball.

And yet his teams are bottom 1/3 of the Pac 12 (if not lower) in respect to talent. We do not even sniff 4 Star talent. We are bummed when some average guard from Moraga doesn't pick up - a program that used to compete with UCLA and Zona for talent.

I know some people want to be in an alternative university but TALENT is the top issue for modern college basketball. Until Fox shows he can recruit at a upper half level we are what we are - a program that will NOT make the dance and is unlikely to make the NIT. And sadly that is precisely the kind of team that Fox had a Georgia as well ;-(
Agree completely. But I would say there two MAJOR problems with FOX.

1. Recruiting - don't need to out-recruit UCLA and Arizona, but we DO need to keep up with the rest - or at least be close.

2. And this is related. INABILITY to adjust his staff or process to address MAJOR weaknesses. EVERY other program has at least one 'recruiter' on the staff - if not 3 or 4. Other issues like PR and community outreach have also been woefully un addressed in his tenure. That gross lack of self-realization and self-actualization is not very good in anyone in a top position, such as head coach. Heck, even Bobby Knight recognized he was a major ***** and had assistants on his staff assigned to 'try' and keep him in check.
Civil Bear
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BeachedBear said:

Agree with SFCity that the Oregon game showcased what a pretty good coach/staff can do. That is to scout, prepare and execute on a game plan against a key opponent. The result against Oregon seemed like a master-class. However, the win against OSU was not quite as masterful. And many of the other games during the losing streak demonstrated that scouting and planning without almost perfect execution still results in a loss (but those were some pretty good teams).

BTW - Monty (as well as a few other coaches) have said that Oregon and Altman are one of the easiest teams to scout and plan for - but VERY hard to execute against because of their talent and Altman gets them to generally play at a very high emotional level.

Credit definitely deserved for this staff in that aspect of the game. Another key aspect is team culture - which has a huge impact on the team player together and playing hard - particularly during a stretch against clearly superior talent.

But the talent gap and speed of change is woefully inadequate at this level of competition. I've always considered Fox a transitional hire and if he has established a culture that can help attract a better fit, then I will thank him for it and wish him well on his next adventure.


Another thing Monty has said is a coach's mastery often comes down to his players making their shots (.520 at Oregon v. .365 at OSU).
PtownBear1
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Fox deserves some love for the Oregon road sweep, and I still want him gone just as badly. No need for those things to be mutually exclusive.

Although I'm a bit curious to see if the dominant OU win was one of those fluky things like how we would occasionally lose to some tiny underdog school back when we had a decent basketball program.
oskidunker
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PtownBear1 said:

Fox deserves some love for the Oregon road sweep, and I still want him gone just as badly. No need for those things to be mutually exclusive.

Although I'm a bit curious to see if the dominant OU win was one of those fluky things like how we would occasionally lose to some tiny underdog school back when we had a decent basketball program.
You can only hope…
Go Bears!
RedlessWardrobe
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In a bizarre kind of way, this thread shows that most of our group (as small as it may be), are really in general agreement about the coach.
Very few really have a problem with his in-game coaching ability. OTOH, everybody's main gripe is the ability to recruit enough talent.
So the real question is, what is the time frame allowance moving forward? I know some believe that at this point, getting 4 star minimum talent will never happen. And even I admit, it needs to happen soon.

My gut feeling is Coach Fox will still be here next year. But anything past that is a crapshoot. He may need to pull of a recruiting miracle for the 23/24 season in order to save his job.
HKBear97!
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PtownBear1 said:

Fox deserves some love for the Oregon road sweep, and I still want him gone just as badly. No need for those things to be mutually exclusive.

Although I'm a bit curious to see if the dominant OU win was one of those fluky things like how we would occasionally lose to some tiny underdog school back when we had a decent basketball program.


This exactly. Let's see how the next few games play out. Great win against Oregon, but let's be honest - one of our better games just happened to coincide with a very off-night for Oregon. Happens all the time.
BeachedBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

In a bizarre kind of way, this thread shows that most of our group (as small as it may be), are really in general agreement about the coach.
Very few really have a problem with his in-game coaching ability. OTOH, everybody's main gripe is the ability to recruit enough talent.
So the real question is, what is the time frame allowance moving forward? I know some believe that at this point, getting 4 star minimum talent will never happen. And even I admit, it needs to happen soon.

My gut feeling is Coach Fox will still be here next year. But anything past that is a crapshoot. He may need to pull of a recruiting miracle for the 23/24 season in order to save his job.
The miracle needed was THIS Season. It didn't happen. All parties need to move on. Back channels should be active now for interviews in April or May. If there was a DRAMATIC uptick in recruiting last year (i.e. most freshman were starting and contributing to the improvement of the team) AND there were some good recruits coming in, then maybe another year.

But none of that has happened, so why bargain for another year?
DiabloWags
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222nd in FG %
240th in 3-point %
217th in Points Scored
193rd in Total Rebounds.

Yup, Fox gets the credit alright.
Oakbear
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tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??
RedlessWardrobe
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BeachedBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

In a bizarre kind of way, this thread shows that most of our group (as small as it may be), are really in general agreement about the coach.
Very few really have a problem with his in-game coaching ability. OTOH, everybody's main gripe is the ability to recruit enough talent.
So the real question is, what is the time frame allowance moving forward? I know some believe that at this point, getting 4 star minimum talent will never happen. And even I admit, it needs to happen soon.

My gut feeling is Coach Fox will still be here next year. But anything past that is a crapshoot. He may need to pull of a recruiting miracle for the 23/24 season in order to save his job.
The miracle needed was THIS Season. It didn't happen. All parties need to move on. Back channels should be active now for interviews in April or May. If there was a DRAMATIC uptick in recruiting last year (i.e. most freshman were starting and contributing to the improvement of the team) AND there were some good recruits coming in, then maybe another year.

But none of that has happened, so why bargain for another year?
Your argument is well taken. Maybe I'm being foolishly sheepish because it seemed like the COVID thing MAY have affected Cal more than other teams. Also I guess the 5 year contract leads me to believe that anyone should be given at least 4 years. So yes regardless of recruiting, results are important right now. I can certainly see your point.
The other question, does it matter if Cal has to eat the remainder of the contract? I know its been done here in the past, but I'm guilty of not paying attention to the athletic budget. Maybe you can shed some light on that.
HearstMining
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Civil Bear said:

BeachedBear said:

Agree with SFCity that the Oregon game showcased what a pretty good coach/staff can do. That is to scout, prepare and execute on a game plan against a key opponent. The result against Oregon seemed like a master-class. However, the win against OSU was not quite as masterful. And many of the other games during the losing streak demonstrated that scouting and planning without almost perfect execution still results in a loss (but those were some pretty good teams).

BTW - Monty (as well as a few other coaches) have said that Oregon and Altman are one of the easiest teams to scout and plan for - but VERY hard to execute against because of their talent and Altman gets them to generally play at a very high emotional level.

Credit definitely deserved for this staff in that aspect of the game. Another key aspect is team culture - which has a huge impact on the team player together and playing hard - particularly during a stretch against clearly superior talent.

But the talent gap and speed of change is woefully inadequate at this level of competition. I've always considered Fox a transitional hire and if he has established a culture that can help attract a better fit, then I will thank him for it and wish him well on his next adventure.


Another thing Monty has said is a coach's mastery often comes down to his players making their shots (.520 at Oregon v. .365 at OSU).
This was never more true than with Ben Braun's teams.
BearoutEast67
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I'm looking forward to seeing Okafor and Newell play for the Bears. Solid recruiting!

[url=https://bearinsider.com/s/2893/cal-signs-forwards-okafor-newell][/url]
Donate to Cal's NIL at https://calegends.com/donation/
BeachedBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

BeachedBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

In a bizarre kind of way, this thread shows that most of our group (as small as it may be), are really in general agreement about the coach.
Very few really have a problem with his in-game coaching ability. OTOH, everybody's main gripe is the ability to recruit enough talent.
So the real question is, what is the time frame allowance moving forward? I know some believe that at this point, getting 4 star minimum talent will never happen. And even I admit, it needs to happen soon.

My gut feeling is Coach Fox will still be here next year. But anything past that is a crapshoot. He may need to pull of a recruiting miracle for the 23/24 season in order to save his job.
The miracle needed was THIS Season. It didn't happen. All parties need to move on. Back channels should be active now for interviews in April or May. If there was a DRAMATIC uptick in recruiting last year (i.e. most freshman were starting and contributing to the improvement of the team) AND there were some good recruits coming in, then maybe another year.

But none of that has happened, so why bargain for another year?
Your argument is well taken. Maybe I'm being foolishly sheepish because it seemed like the COVID thing MAY have affected Cal more than other teams. Also I guess the 5 year contract leads me to believe that anyone should be given at least 4 years. So yes regardless of recruiting, results are important right now. I can certainly see your point.
The other question, does it matter if Cal has to eat the remainder of the contract? I know its been done here in the past, but I'm guilty of not paying attention to the athletic budget. Maybe you can shed some light on that.
I think COVID impacted Football much harder than it did the basketball program. For revenue sports, agents have done an excellent job convincing Universities that their client (the coach) needs to have a 5 yr contract, otherwise recruiting will suffer. So now, the standard is a rolling 5 yr contract with buyout clauses. It is not unique to Cal. I'm confident that some may use the buyout as an excuse to extend, but the nature of the beast is that there will almost always be some sort of buyout - it simply the cost of transition.

I believe the current Fox contract is 50% buyout before end of season, 25% buyout after season is over (which is why I suggest interviewing in April, after the season is over. If the AD doesn't replace Fox after this year, he will then need to EXTEND Fox to guarantee the 5 yr contract.

The AD CANNOT simply let it ride out - as that is a clear signal to players, recruits, donors and their families that the AD does not support FOX. So, the dilemma is not replace him this year or next. The dilemma is replace him this year or not for the next 3 or more.
socaltownie
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BearoutEast67 said:

I'm looking forward to seeing Okafor and Newell play for the Bears. Solid recruiting!

[url=https://bearinsider.com/s/2893/cal-signs-forwards-okafor-newell][/url]
Okafor has possible upside. Until we see him though hard to know if physical upside or if he can actually play.
Take care of your Chicken
stu
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RedlessWardrobe said:

... Maybe I'm being foolishly sheepish because it seemed like the COVID thing MAY have affected Cal more than other teams ...
According to the current ESPN standings Cal has played 15 PAC-12 games, as many as any team in the conference, and 26 total games, more than any other team in the conference. Last season we played 20 conference games and 29 total games. COVID-19 may have impacted our practice time as much as or more than other teams but I have no way of knowing that. AFAIK Fox seems to have managed it well

Due to COVID-19 our women's team played only 17 total games last season and missed a lot of practice, the latter crucial with 6 freshies. So far 4 games have been postponed this season. I can't say whether the difference between our men and women is due to management or luck.
bearister
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Moderators, please transfer the last paragraph of the above post to the Women's Basketball Board.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
PtownBear1
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Oakbear said:

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??
A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff
 
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