stu said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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... Maybe I'm being foolishly sheepish because it seemed like the COVID thing MAY have affected Cal more than other teams ...

---

According to the current ESPN standings Cal has played 15 PAC-12 games, as many as any team in the conference, and 26 total games, more than any other team in the conference. Last season we played 20 conference games and 29 total games. COVID-19 may have impacted our practice time as much as or more than other teams but I have no way of knowing that. AFAIK Fox seems to have managed it well

Due to COVID-19 our women's team played only 17 total games last season and missed a lot of practice, the latter crucial with 6 freshies. So far 4 games have been postponed this season. I can't say whether the difference between our men and women is due to management or luck.

---

The covid problem for Cal men's basketball wasn't games missed, it was a missed off-season. It was particularly hard (maybe not uniquely hard, but particularly hard) for Cal for three reasons: (1) Cal had an unusually raw roster that needed, more than anything, time playing actual basketball together as much as possible (as opposed to individual shooting on portable hoops on tennis courts); (2) Cal had disproportionate number of foreign players who couldn't get into the country to join the team for ANY workouts/conditioning/nutrition with the program; and (3) COB/UCB covid rules were generally more restrictive than most other jurisdictions.

Those factors combined to hamper Cal's off-season preparation more so than most teams, and off-season preparation is what that roster needed more than anything.

socaltownie said:

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drizzlybear said:

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stu said:

---

RedlessWardrobe said:

---

... Maybe I'm being foolishly sheepish because it seemed like the COVID thing MAY have affected Cal more than other teams ...

---

According to the current ESPN standings Cal has played 15 PAC-12 games, as many as any team in the conference, and 26 total games, more than any other team in the conference. Last season we played 20 conference games and 29 total games. COVID-19 may have impacted our practice time as much as or more than other teams but I have no way of knowing that. AFAIK Fox seems to have managed it well

Due to COVID-19 our women's team played only 17 total games last season and missed a lot of practice, the latter crucial with 6 freshies. So far 4 games have been postponed this season. I can't say whether the difference between our men and women is due to management or luck.

---

The covid problem for Cal men's basketball wasn't games missed, it was a missed off-season. It was particularly hard (maybe not uniquely hard, but particularly hard) for Cal for three reasons: (1) Cal had an unusually raw roster that needed, more than anything, time playing actual basketball together as much as possible (as opposed to individual shooting on portable hoops on tennis courts); (2) Cal had disproportionate number of foreign players who couldn't get into the country to join the team for ANY workouts/conditioning/nutrition with the program; and (3) COB/UCB covid rules were generally more restrictive than most other jurisdictions.

Those factors combined to hamper Cal's off-season preparation more so than most teams, and off-season preparation is what that roster needed more than anything.

---

Nice try. And I get the whole "Lets run the picket fence" thing.

But look at our players and then look at theirs. Simply put we have guys (a lot) on the roster that would not get an offer from the 6 best programs in the conference - maybe the top 10.

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Yeah, don't read more into my comments than they say. I'm not saying we have adequate talent level; I don't think we do.

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

We need a younger coach who can relate to today's players to recruit. A qualified younger man of color would be great Gates?.

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I wonder how much of his "distaste" for recruiting is at the heart of the problem. I believe at the time he was hired at Cal much was made about how all the other schools in the SEC used "sleazy" recruiting practices and he wouldn't stoop to that level. While I appreciate that Fox wants to do things without breaking the rules, it almost seems like he uses that as an excuse to make absolutely no effort to recruit, cultivate relationships with recruits and their families, or to do any work at all on that side of things. That attitude goes so far as to extend to assistants, since he has shown no sign of prioritizing assistants who would do that work.

In some respects, his distaste for recruiting reminds me of Montgomery; however, he doesn't have Montgomery's track record as a selling point.

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

calumnus said:

---

... His demeanor in interviews kind of reminds me of a police officer. I can see why Knowlton and he hit it off. He could be a good HS or JC coach where recruiting isn't so important, but he just seems a bad fit for Cal.

---

Good HS and JC teams recruit. He might do better at a service academy where players have priorities beyond basketball and would be more amenable to his demeanor.

stu said:

---

calumnus said:

---

... His demeanor in interviews kind of reminds me of a police officer. I can see why Knowlton and he hit it off. He could be a good HS or JC coach where recruiting isn't so important, but he just seems a bad fit for Cal.

---

Good HS and JC teams recruit. He might do better at a service academy where players have priorities beyond basketball and would be more amenable to his demeanor.

---

Agreed, Knowlton could have hired him at Air Force.

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

Appreciate your knowledge and insight.

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

it's as clear as day

CalLifer said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I wonder how much of his "distaste" for recruiting is at the heart of the problem. I believe at the time he was hired at Cal much was made about how all the other schools in the SEC used "sleazy" recruiting practices and he wouldn't stoop to that level. While I appreciate that Fox wants to do things without breaking the rules, it almost seems like he uses that as an excuse to make absolutely no effort to recruit, cultivate relationships with recruits and their families, or to do any work at all on that side of things. That attitude goes so far as to extend to assistants, since he has shown no sign of prioritizing assistants who would do that work.

In some respects, his distaste for recruiting reminds me of Montgomery; however, he doesn't have Montgomery's track record as a selling point.

---

And here is the thing - between UofA, Oregon, and U$C we have three ethically challenged programs in conference. I am NOT saying to stoop to their level but we DO have to have a great recruiter who is capable of performing in adverse conditions.

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

I wonder if a bigger issue (could someone opine here) isn't the GPA but the A-G. I have a high school frosh and soph. SCT Jr. will be just fine (except for his voiced desire to piss me off by going to the Farm). But SCT -daughter has a learning difference and it is really the 2 years of foreign language and especially the third year of math that is a challenge.

Does anyone know if it is not just the GPA but A-G as well?

I mentioned this on another thread and I have no particular evidence to back this up, but I suspect that Fox's song consists of one note repeated over and over: HARD WORK. I think that's what got him, an modestly talented bb player, to where he is today, and that's the answer to every problem. Admittedly, most of my evidence is his initial and unfortunately broadcast speech to the team when he first arrived. He basically accused them of being slackers that he was going to fix through hard work.

Hard work is critical, but that's not all a talented 16-17 year-old wants to hear. They want to hear about how they can improve their skills. They (hopefully) want to hear about how the team's offensive and defensive schemes will result in NCAA tournament appearances. And frankly, the really good ones want to hear about how this can lead to a pro career.

As far as academics are concerned, every coach on the staff went to a third-tier college (well, Wilson went to Pepperdine) - can they really speak to the academic opportunities/challenges that recruits will face at Cal?

At least you are honest " I have no particular evidence to back this up". Very illuminating.

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

Whatever the reason, the new class coming in (2022) is going to be the worst under Fox unless spaces open up and players are unexpectedly found. The recruiting has been uniformly dismal, not just west coast or norcal. The current freshmen class that was supposed to turn things around is worse than the year before, because at least the year before had Celestine. The class did have Shepherd, which is nice, but players that come for one year are not exactly program building. It is almost if the coaches are actively repelling potential players.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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HearstMining said:

---

I mentioned this on another thread and I have no particular evidence to back this up, but I suspect that Fox's song consists of one note repeated over and over: HARD WORK. I think that's what got him, an modestly talented bb player, to where he is today, and that's the answer to every problem. Admittedly, most of my evidence is his initial and unfortunately broadcast speech to the team when he first arrived. He basically accused them of being slackers that he was going to fix through hard work.

Hard work is critical, but that's not all a talented 16-17 year-old wants to hear. They want to hear about how they can improve their skills. They (hopefully) want to hear about how the team's offensive and defensive schemes will result in NCAA tournament appearances. And frankly, the really good ones want to hear about how this can lead to a pro career.

As far as academics are concerned, every coach on the staff went to a third-tier college (well, Wilson went to Pepperdine) - can they really speak to the academic opportunities/challenges that recruits will face at Cal?

---

No disrespect intended, but honestly isn't the infamous "broadcast speech" possibly given too much weight when evaluating Fox? Wouldn't most of the stuff he said be fairly standard for a new coach coming in? The way that whole thing went down was overblown on its own. I think Sueing and the other guys were already set on transferring, regardless of what Fox said. Just my opinion, but in evaluating Mark Fox I think its time for us to (DonMclean) "lets move on" as far as the opening speech is concerned.

---

Seriously. Nowhere did anybody ever say that was Fox's first communication with the players, but some people seemed to have assumed that it was. I would bet he had had individual chats and also at least one group talk with the team, prior to that. That "speech" was somebody in the Athletic Department's staged, terrible idea for a PR moment, but people keep digging it up when they're hunting for evidence for a point they want to make.

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

RedlessWardrobe said:

---

HearstMining said:

---

I mentioned this on another thread and I have no particular evidence to back this up, but I suspect that Fox's song consists of one note repeated over and over: HARD WORK. I think that's what got him, an modestly talented bb player, to where he is today, and that's the answer to every problem. Admittedly, most of my evidence is his initial and unfortunately broadcast speech to the team when he first arrived. He basically accused them of being slackers that he was going to fix through hard work.

Hard work is critical, but that's not all a talented 16-17 year-old wants to hear. They want to hear about how they can improve their skills. They (hopefully) want to hear about how the team's offensive and defensive schemes will result in NCAA tournament appearances. And frankly, the really good ones want to hear about how this can lead to a pro career.

As far as academics are concerned, every coach on the staff went to a third-tier college (well, Wilson went to Pepperdine) - can they really speak to the academic opportunities/challenges that recruits will face at Cal?

---

No disrespect intended, but honestly isn't the infamous "broadcast speech" possibly given too much weight when evaluating Fox? Wouldn't most of the stuff he said be fairly standard for a new coach coming in? The way that whole thing went down was overblown on its own. I think Sueing and the other guys were already set on transferring, regardless of what Fox said. Just my opinion, but in evaluating Mark Fox I think its time for us to (DonMclean) "lets move on" as far as the opening speech is concerned.

---

Your response is fair and I wasn't trying to tie Cal's current recruiting problem directly to Fox's initial speech. Those of you who think he's a sharp, dynamic, leading-edge coach, chime in!

Big C said:

---

SFCity, we got Colorado and Utah comin' in to the Haas later this week (and I hope to be at one or maybe both):

Not to give them any ideas, but when their coaches see our success with the high screens, what can/will they do to counter that and what can Fox do to counter their counter?

---

Big C,

I don't think I'm qualified to give a good answer to this. I'm fairly sure that Fox will scheme separately for these games, and he will have studied both Utah and Colorado to prepare a strategy for attacking them, which may or may not include the high ball screen. If it does include the high ball screen, I would guess that he will have alternate plans in case it doesn't work, and maybe plans to use it to disguise another scheme, which he did not have to do with Oregon.

I'm more interested with how Fox will plan to defend against these teams. As good as Cal was offensively, I think Cal won that game with their defense, which seemed to bother Oregon a lot, causing them to take bad shots, and even miss wide open shots. As for Utah and Colorado, often a good defensive coach will defend a team better in the second game he plays a team, because he has played them once already, which can be better than just watching film.

Other than that, I am just a kibitzer sitting in the peanut gallery.

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

Interesting . . . not gonna try and read between the lines there (publicly).

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

What's your take on Bowser's ability to play a meaningful/productive role next season?

And is Bowser currently practicing?

Thanks for these updates 4thGen!

drizzlybear said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

What's your take on Bowser's ability to play a meaningful/productive role next season?

---

In 101 minutes as a freshman he scored 14 points on 32% shooting including 0% from three. What more do you need to know?

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

What's your take on Bowser's ability to play a meaningful/productive role next season?

---

In 101 minutes as a freshman he scored 14 points on 32% shooting including 0% from three. What more do you need to know?

---

Are you kidding? You reach a conclusion on a player based on limited sporadic game minutes of a true freshman on a veteran roster who had a significant injury mid-season? Wow. (He was getting playing time early in the season ahead of Celestine, IIRC. And I'm pretty sure he was a decently rated recruit (highest of that class?).)

What I want to know is whether he's been able to practice, whether he's been able to add strength, and how he's competing in practice. He's not Klonaris. This is someone who I think was expected to be a significant contributor early, before injuries. So I want to know if he's getting healthy again and if indeed he's showing that he can compete and contribute or if he's looking more like a bust.

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

What's your take on Bowser's ability to play a meaningful/productive role next season?

---

In 101 minutes as a freshman he scored 14 points on 32% shooting including 0% from three. What more do you need to know?

---

Are you kidding? You reach a conclusion on a player based on limited sporadic game minutes of a true freshman on a veteran roster who had a significant injury mid-season? Wow. (He was getting playing time early in the season ahead of Celestine, IIRC. And I'm pretty sure he was a decently rated recruit (highest of that class?).)

What I want to know is whether he's been able to practice, whether he's been able to add strength, and how he's competing in practice. He's not Klonaris. This is someone who I think was expected to be a significant contributor early, before injuries. So I want to know if he's getting healthy again and if indeed he's showing that he can compete and contribute or if he's looking more like a bust.

---

Ignore the stats if you want, although I think they are predictive for perimeter players. I saw him play both in high school and college. His basketball skills were very low. He beat out Celestine because Celestine was injured. He was higher rated than Celestine, but once I have seen someone play, I discount their ranking. Celestine was a much better player in high school.

---

Stats which are extremely limited and sporadic are not reliably predictive. Why reference having seen him play if there's nothing more you need to know than his (extremely) limited stats from his freshman season? It sounds like you actually do rely on other information; namely, your impression from having seen him play in high school. Well, that's exactly why I (and others) are asking the question of 4thGen: because he's about the only one on this board who may have actually seen Bowser play in the past 11 months.

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Big C said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

calumnus said:

---

PtownBear1 said:

---

Oakbear said:

---

tis a puzzlement, the guy can coach, so why can't he recruit?? seems that players would want to play for someone who can improve their game?? I know a degree from Cal means little to someone who plans to play basketball for a living

is he too honest? lack charisma? .. wonder why he can't get a few of the many higher rated players .. don't any of our assts have recruiting chops??

---

A few of my theories of why he can't recruit:

- He doesn't have any real success or hope to sell. A newly promoted HC without a track record could still sell on hope/optimism, but anyone that looks at Fox's record for the past decade plus can't possibly be impressed.

- He seems unlikeable and unrelatable to youth. Even his appearance looks outdated and more in line with an accountant than someone who needs to appeal to teenagers for a living.

- His authoritative style is unappealing and turns off players with other options

- He doesn't have any proven recruiters on his staff

---

Add, his teams typically play among the slowest in the country and are low scoring. Not much opportunity to put up big numbers. He rarely gets to the NCAA Tournanent, and last won a single game in the Tournament in 2007, 15 years ago, when most recruits were still in diapers.

At Georgia much was made of how bad a recruiter he was. Typically missing on most of the wealth of lical talen. Part of it is his mantra of "doing it the right way" which apparently for him means not attending AAU games or working the AAU circuit.

---

I like your bball insight and stats as well! I do think the slower tempo is a negative in recruiting for him/Cal. I do know Fox/staff have been exploring NIL avenues and Fox does hit the AAU circuit consistently. I think its more simple for his and his staff's strike outs - 1) limited affable social skills that put the recruits at ease and without that a natural trust level is much more difficult to gain. Francis is well liked by the players and is approachable, but does not have authority/experience to go to skill wise. The other two assistants in my opinion, are not approachable in a natural manner. Wilson is somewhat checked out (perception) and has been demoted with Chris H being the lead assistant. The players like CH competitive fire, but also don't always mesh with his demanding/intense fire when obstacles/mistakes occur in games. Players respect Fox's knowledge and game prep, but they do not feel close to him (which is not unusual for most college coaches). Its been mentioned many times but it is a key factor - Cal will not consider any recruit with a 2.7 gpa or lower and 2.8-2.9 gpa requires a committee hearing and an exception made (one player is on the roster with a HS gpa of 2.8 and doing well btw).
Very telling that the two leading local basketball organizations: Prolithic Prep and Oakland Soldiers have just one player on the current roster. The west coast recruiting impact (and especially Nor Cal) has been dismal.

---

4thGenCal, is there perhaps any news/insight you could share with us regarding the status of DJ Thorpe and Monty Bowser? Are they still injured, or do they practice? (Seemed like, if Thorpe was good to play, he would suit up and get some minutes, what with Kelly out.) Would you say they will almost certainly still be with us next season?

---

DJ had a concussion which he recovered from but did linger, then has had ongoing back issues that have stopped him from playing and with the season too far gone, he is redshirting. Bowser had a viral infection (not covid) that took 2+ months to clear out and was also too late with getting up to speed to rejoin. Bowser will be back for sure.

---

What's your take on Bowser's ability to play a meaningful/productive role next season?

---

In 101 minutes as a freshman he scored 14 points on 32% shooting including 0% from three. What more do you need to know?

---

Are you kidding? You reach a conclusion on a player based on limited sporadic game minutes of a true freshman on a veteran roster who had a significant injury mid-season? Wow. (He was getting playing time early in the season ahead of Celestine, IIRC. And I'm pretty sure he was a decently rated recruit (highest of that class?).)

What I want to know is whether he's been able to practice, whether he's been able to add strength, and how he's competing in practice. He's not Klonaris. This is someone who I think was expected to be a significant contributor early, before injuries. So I want to know if he's getting healthy again and if indeed he's showing that he can compete and contribute or if he's looking more like a bust.

---

Ignore the stats if you want, although I think they are predictive for perimeter players. I saw him play both in high school and college. His basketball skills were very low. He beat out Celestine because Celestine was injured. He was higher rated than Celestine, but once I have seen someone play, I discount their ranking. Celestine was a much better player in high school.

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Stats which are extremely limited and sporadic are not reliably predictive. Why reference having seen him play if there's nothing more you need to know than his (extremely) limited stats from his freshman season? It sounds like you actually do rely on other information; namely, your impression from having seen him play in high school. Well, that's exactly why I (and others) are asking the question of 4thGen: because he's about the only one on this board who may have actually seen Bowser play in the past 11 months.

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Agree. Given the circumstances, it's way too early to write Bowser off without seeing him play more. I'm guessing the staff has a much better idea as to his potential (or lack thereof) at this point.

Big C said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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Stats which are extremely limited and sporadic are not reliably predictive. Why reference having seen him play if there's nothing more you need to know than his (extremely) limited stats from his freshman season? It sounds like you actually do rely on other information; namely, your impression from having seen him play in high school. Well, that's exactly why I (and others) are asking the question of 4thGen: because he's about the only one on this board who may have actually seen Bowser play in the past 11 months.

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Agree. Given the circumstances, it's way too early to write Bowser off without seeing him play more. I'm guessing the staff has a much better idea as to his potential (or lack thereof) at this point.

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Which is reflected in his playing time?

BeachedBear said:

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Big C said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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....

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Stats which are extremely limited and sporadic are not reliably predictive. Why reference having seen him play if there's nothing more you need to know than his (extremely) limited stats from his freshman season? It sounds like you actually do rely on other information; namely, your impression from having seen him play in high school. Well, that's exactly why I (and others) are asking the question of 4thGen: because he's about the only one on this board who may have actually seen Bowser play in the past 11 months.

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Agree. Given the circumstances, it's way too early to write Bowser off without seeing him play more. I'm guessing the staff has a much better idea as to his potential (or lack thereof) at this point.

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Which is reflected in his playing time?

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I might be wrong, but I seem to remember his playing time might have been increasing a bit until he went up for that high flying dunk, and then landed on his head, in the worst looking fall I think I've ever witnessed. He was out for many days, but returned quicker than I expected. From there his playing time was limited, so I thought the coach and staff were just being cautious with him.

I only hope that when he does return to the court, that he will have learned his lesson. When you go up for a high flying dunk like that, you need to be in control, and have a feel of where to land, an open area, and how you will land, and not just be trying to show off for your girlfriend and your fans. Tyrone Wallace was really good at how to escape from the upper atmosphere, and always seemed to land perfectly, so he could go into a slide on the floor and slowly come to rest at the edge of the first row of seats. He did get injured twice at Cal, maybe in practice, but I don't think it was a result of how he landed after a dunk. The move was very athletic, and in my limited knowledge, I've not seen anyone else routinely land like that.