The Utah Game's last play - simply awful

2,660 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by HoopDreams
SFCityBear
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I just got home, and only saw the last few seconds. But if you are trying to win a game in the last seconds, this is no way to do it.

I have these questions:

1. If you want to try for a three, and if Alajiki is the team's best 3-point shooter at 60%, why isn't he on the floor for the last 4.3 seconds?

2. The team on the floor was Celestine, Anticevich, Kuany, Foreman, and Shepherd. Shepherd, at 30% for his career, had the least chance of making a three, so why is he the one taking the shot?

3. Shepherd drove down the floor, seeming not to look for anyone else. Anticevich was wide open, trailing Shepherd by a step. Even though Shepherd was double-teamed, he still took the shot.

4. Why do nearly all coaches (maybe all of them) in this situation seem to always opt to use their best player to drive the length of the floor as fast as he can and put up a last second prayer of a shot? I even saw Montgomery do it, when he had Justin Cobbs. Every opposing coach probably knows what the opponent is going to do, so he usually picks the opponent's best player up in the back court, and when that player gets into the frontcourt, he is immediately double-teamed to reduce the odds of success for the shooter even further. Why do coaches continue to use this simplistic mostly failing strategy for making the last second shot to win or tie a game?

I have told this story a few times, but in the 1958 Elite 8 game at the Cow Palace, Cal vs Seattle and Elgin Baylor, with 5 seconds left on the clock, the score was tied. Pete Newell, Cal's coach, called time out and drew up a play where the Bears set up along the length of the floor, so they could make 3 to 4 passes up the floor, and Al Buch would take a running shot, hopefully a layup at the other end. It worked nearly to perfection, 3 or 4 passes, ending up with Buch missing a running 5-foot floater at the rim. No player took a dribble, the ball never touched the floor. Seattle went on to win the game in overtime. They then won their semi-final game, but Baylor got hurt, and even though he played in the Final the next day, Seattle lost, and Kentucky won the NCAA title. It was particularly galling to Newell, because he felt Cal matched up against Kentucky really well, and he felt Cal would have beaten them and won their first NCAA title in 1958. In Fox's case, Cal had only 4.3 seconds, not 5 like Newell had, and I can understand him opting to take a three, and I can understand that he might not ever know of Pete Newell's apparently unique strategy for a last second shot, but he'd have to explain why he did not have Alajiki on the floor, and why he did not have Shepherd pass the ball to a better three point shooter. There were 4 of them on the floor to choose from.



SFCityBear
bearister
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Sam played 6 minutes. Why? Injury? Dog house? Whatup?
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SFCityBear
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bearister said:

Sam played 6 minutes. Why? Injury? Dog house? Whatup?
"Nobody knows where the hobo goes when it snows" - Amarillo Slim
SFCityBear
HoopDreams
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4.5 seconds is simply not a lot of time

Of course if you throw it long and the player catches it, there would be enough time for a couple passes and a shot, but that is an extremely thing to pull off

I would have to watch the play again to see how we setup shepherd for the play. Perhaps he could have caught the ball at near full speed and farther up the court, but even then he would have had to take a shot from the side

The fact that shepherd shot it from the center of the court makes me think this was a fairly high quality shot under those circumstances

From where I sit, it looked like the perfect shot, but it obviously wasn't straight inline with the hoop

That last play didn't work, but I have no argument against the coach on that play call
KenBurnski
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I remember UCLA's Tyus Edney taking it coast to coast with 4.8 seconds remaining for a game winning layup against Missouri in the ncaa tournament. I was surprised that Shep pulled up from that spot. Oh well.
HoopDreams
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I remember that too but that's why I said you can run the length of the court in 5 seconds and make a layup, but it was also one of the worst defensive plays when he did that too

I said you need 6 seconds to get a good shot off unless you try a riskier play by throwing the ball farther down court

I like when you run screens for a player curling back for the ball so they catch it at near full speed but it also means the shot comes off center making it a more difficult shot (although Randle made that shot in the NCAA)


KenBurnski said:

I remember UCLA's Tyus Edney taking it coast to coast with 4.8 seconds remaining for a game winning layup against Missouri in the ncaa tournament. I was surprised that Shep pulled up from that spot. Oh well.
calumnus
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SFCityBear said:

I just got home, and only saw the last few seconds. But if you are trying to win a game in the last seconds, this is no way to do it.

I have these questions:

1. If you want to try for a three, and if Alajiki is the team's best 3-point shooter at 60%, why isn't he on the floor for the last 4.3 seconds?

2. The team on the floor was Celestine, Anticevich, Kuany, Foreman, and Shepherd. Shepherd, at 30% for his career, had the least chance of making a three, so why is he the one taking the shot?

3. Shepherd drove down the floor, seeming not to look for anyone else. Anticevich was wide open, trailing Shepherd by a step. Even though Shepherd was double-teamed, he still took the shot.

4. Why do nearly all coaches (maybe all of them) in this situation seem to always opt to use their best player to drive the length of the floor as fast as he can and put up a last second prayer of a shot? I even saw Montgomery do it, when he had Justin Cobbs. Every opposing coach probably knows what the opponent is going to do, so he usually picks the opponent's best player up in the back court, and when that player gets into the frontcourt, he is immediately double-teamed to reduce the odds of success for the shooter even further. Why do coaches continue to use this simplistic mostly failing strategy for making the last second shot to win or tie a game?

I have told this story a few times, but in the 1958 Elite 8 game at the Cow Palace, Cal vs Seattle and Elgin Baylor, with 5 seconds left on the clock, the score was tied. Pete Newell, Cal's coach, called time out and drew up a play where the Bears set up along the length of the floor, so they could make 3 to 4 passes up the floor, and Al Buch would take a running shot, hopefully a layup at the other end. It worked nearly to perfection, 3 or 4 passes, ending up with Buch missing a running 5-foot floater at the rim. No player took a dribble, the ball never touched the floor. Seattle went on to win the game in overtime. They then won their semi-final game, but Baylor got hurt, and even though he played in the Final the next day, Seattle lost, and Kentucky won the NCAA title. It was particularly galling to Newell, because he felt Cal matched up against Kentucky really well, and he felt Cal would have beaten them and won their first NCAA title in 1958. In Fox's case, Cal had only 4.3 seconds, not 5 like Newell had, and I can understand him opting to take a three, and I can understand that he might not ever know of Pete Newell's apparently unique strategy for a last second shot, but he'd have to explain why he did not have Alajiki on the floor, and why he did not have Shepherd pass the ball to a better three point shooter. There were 4 of them on the floor to choose from.




1. It appears Alajiki was not in because he was being disciplined for his earlier freshman mistakes. Only played 6 minutes, got yanked, did not see the floor again.
stu
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If I recall correctly Fox burned his last timeout earlier. If we had a timeout would the ball have been in-bounded farther up?
tthompson993
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No it would have still been inbounded on the baseline. It only moves up in the NBA with a timeout.
SFCityBear
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HoopDreams said:

4.5 seconds is simply not a lot of time

Of course if you throw it long and the player catches it, there would be enough time for a couple passes and a shot, but that is an extremely thing to pull off

I would have to watch the play again to see how we setup shepherd for the play. Perhaps he could have caught the ball at near full speed and farther up the court, but even then he would have had to take a shot from the side

The fact that shepherd shot it from the center of the court makes me think this was a fairly high quality shot under those circumstances

From where I sit, it looked like the perfect shot, but it obviously wasn't straight inline with the hoop

That last play didn't work, but I have no argument against the coach on that play call
I think it was 4.3 seconds, and that would be even less time. I was not talking about a long pass to Shepherd on the run. That would be way too risky a pass, and hard to complete. I have no problem with Shepherd taking the last shot, just that we should play to his strengths, and the three point shot is not one of his best strengths. I would have tried to scheme a play that would have him receive a pass while on the move somewhere near the free throw line. He has so many ways to score in the paint, and is very good at all of them. He should not dribble, just take a step and then leap and fire.

This is how I remember the set up for Newell's play from the 1958 game, the Bear with the ball was standing out of bounds to one side of the basket. Let's say the 2nd player was about 20 feet down the sideline, the 3rd player down another 20 feet, nearing the halfcourt line, 4th player maybe another 20 feet away in the front court. Buch, the 5th player, was somewhere near the key. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th players caught the passes in succession, and as they did, they turned and fired the next pass. Before the 4th player caught the pass from the 3rd player, Buch was already beginning to run toward the paint. The 4th player's pass hit Buch in stride, and Buch took a step, leaped, and launched the floater 5-7 feet from the basket. The clock showed 5 seconds before the ball was inbounded, and Buch's shot barely beat the buzzer, so the play could have taken 4.8 seconds or so. Fox did not have that much time. Still, the same play could have been run with one less pass to maybe get it down to 4.3 seconds when Shepherd could launch his shot, a mid range jumper or some shorter shot in the paint.

I am only saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. The players on our team, with the exception of Lars, are all more athletic and all faster than any player Newell had on the floor in that game. The shot was naturally taken by Buch, who had several ways to score near the basket, like Shepherd does for our team. Newell's players were all more skilled at passing and catching a pass than the players on our team, from what I have seen. This is not a play that Fox could come up with in a timeout. It requires so much precision and teamwork, that it has to be practiced over and over again to be perfected. That is not the modern game, which demands more individual creativity, and likely these players would not be so interested in practicing this kind of play.
SFCityBear
RedlessWardrobe
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SFCity, while I respect your opinion I feel to categorize the last play as "awful" is a bit of a reach. At least it ended up with a guy who is a fairly good shooter getting a shot off. Yes it was from 40 feet but at least there was somewhat of a chance.

You mentioned you just saw the end. If you had watched the whole game you could have certainly tagged your "simply awful" tag on the numerous UNFORCED TURNOVERS that the Bears committed throughout the entire game. Its the main reason they ended up losing yesterday.
bearister
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SFCityBear said:

bearister said:

Sam played 6 minutes. Why? Injury? Dog house? Whatup?
"Nobody knows where the hobo goes when it snows" - Amarillo Slim


I pine for the days when hobos were exotic instead of psychotic.

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Bear8995
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The bigger issue is that a couple plays earlier, we let too much time run off the clock before fouling.
drizzlybear
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I'm sure it's a designed play they practice fairly frequently. My guess is that Shepherd can hit that shot relatively well (emphasizing "relatively") when they execute it correctly and he gets a clean look, as he/they did in this case. The killer plays in crunch time were:
1. the play that got reviewed for out of bounds and shot clock violation. Both were so agonizingly close to going Cal's way, especially as it appeared in real time, but neither did. I don't think Utah scored off of the new possession, but the additional possession cost us critical time.

2. Lars's basket interference.

3. Shepherd's turnover on that late transition.

I don't really place fault on any of these situations, but they were instances where things were so close to going Cal's way and surprisingly didn't. There's always instances like that in every game (and yes, Cal surely got some breaks if its own, like the no-call on Shepherd's charge), and my bias is always sure to recall more readily those that go against Cal than those that go for Cal, but even given all that, this game felt like there were so many more than usual (JC's made three at the half waived off for being just a hair too late, the numerous and-ones for Utah, including the one Anthony just heaved wildly from 17 feet out, etc., etc.) in this game, and it was so much more painful given the narrow outcome.

I feel like Cal wins this game at least 7 times out of 10, but unfortunately not the time they actually played it. Ugh.
HoopDreams
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Agree!

I do think that was a charge by shepherd but that big strong PF flopped big time

Maybe that impacted the call

drizzlybear said:

I'm sure it's a designed play they practice fairly frequently. My guess is that Shepherd can hit that shot relatively well (emphasizing "relatively") when they execute it correctly and he gets a clean look, as he/they did in this case. The killer plays in crunch time were:
1. the play that got reviewed for out of bounds and shot clock violation. Both were so agonizingly close to going Cal's way, especially as it appeared in real time, but neither did. I don't think Utah scored off of the new possession, but the additional possession cost us critical time.

2. Lars's basket interference.

3. Shepherd's turnover on that late transition.

I don't really place fault on any of these situations, but they were instances where things were so close to going Cal's way and surprisingly didn't. There's always instances like that in every game (and yes, Cal surely got some breaks if its own, like the no-call on Shepherd's charge), and my bias is always sure to recall more readily those that go against Cal than those that go for Cal, but even given all that, this game felt like there were so many more than usual (JC's made three at the half waived off for being just a hair too late, the numerous and-ones for Utah, including the one Anthony just heaved wildly from 17 feet out, etc., etc.) in this game, and it was so much more painful given the narrow outcome.

I feel like Cal wins this game at least 7 times out of 10, but unfortunately not the time they actually played it. Ugh.
GoCal80
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joe amos yaks
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SFCityBear said:

bearister said:

Sam played 6 minutes. Why? Injury? Dog house? Whatup?
"Nobody knows where the hobo goes when it snows" - Amarillo Slim
Yes, but everybody should know where the Husky goes.
"Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say." - LT
bearister
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GoCal80 said:





Jordan McLaughlin:

"On July 20, 2019, McLaughlin signed a two-way contract with the Minnesota Timberwolves.[16] On February 8, 2020, he recorded a career-high in points (24) and assists (11) against the LA Clippers.[17]

On September 15, 2021, McLaughlin signed a standard contract with Minnesota." Wikipedia

Salary: $2M
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SFCityBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCity, while I respect your opinion I feel to categorize the last play as "awful" is a bit of a reach. At least it ended up with a guy who is a fairly good shooter getting a shot off. Yes it was from 40 feet but at least there was somewhat of a chance.

You mentioned you just saw the end. If you had watched the whole game you could have certainly tagged your "simply awful" tag on the numerous UNFORCED TURNOVERS that the Bears committed throughout the entire game. Its the main reason they ended up losing yesterday.
I agree completely. It was stupid of me and I apologize to all who read it. I couldn't believe what I saw, lost my temper, threw a shoe at the TV (hit it), and took out my frustrations with a dumb post here.

Only thing I'll stick with is that Shepherd is a good shooter, but not from the three point line. He has shot threes at 0.287 for the season. And he was forced to take this shot from 10 feet further out from the line, with two defenders in his face. In no way do I blame Shepherd for anything. I could blame Coach Fox, but most coaches, maybe all coaches today would have called the same play. Pete Newell would not have called such a play, because he was more creative than most, and figured his players could get the ball up the floor faster by passing it a few times than by bouncing it several times, and it might lead to a shorter, more open, high percentage shot. I think Pete Newell would have had Shepherd take that shot, as a 10-15 foot shot would be something that Shepherd does better than any player we had available.

I agree with all the comments that you and others have made about all the errors Cal made leading up to the last 4 seconds were more crucial than the last play, and if we did not make them, perhaps we would not have needed to score in the final 4 seconds.

SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

SFCityBear said:

bearister said:

Sam played 6 minutes. Why? Injury? Dog house? Whatup?
"Nobody knows where the hobo goes when it snows" - Amarillo Slim


I pine for the days when hobos were exotic instead of psychotic.


Good one.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

GoCal80 said:





Jordan McLaughlin:

"On July 20, 2019, McLaughlin signed a two-way contract with the Minnesota Timberwolves.[16] On February 8, 2020, he recorded a career-high in points (24) and assists (11) against the LA Clippers.[17]

On September 15, 2021, McLaughlin signed a standard contract with Minnesota." Wikipedia

Salary: $2M
Great shot by Wallace. Nearly an identical situation to our Utah game. Less than 5 seconds on the clock. A player who is not a good three point shooter taking the shot. The difference is that in this game the ball was rebounded and quickly passed up the floor to Wallace. This gave Wallace the ball with a fraction of a second more time, allowing him to drive the ball maybe 10 feet closer to the basket, increasing his odds of making the shot.
SFCityBear
Big C
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SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCity, while I respect your opinion I feel to categorize the last play as "awful" is a bit of a reach. At least it ended up with a guy who is a fairly good shooter getting a shot off. Yes it was from 40 feet but at least there was somewhat of a chance.

You mentioned you just saw the end. If you had watched the whole game you could have certainly tagged your "simply awful" tag on the numerous UNFORCED TURNOVERS that the Bears committed throughout the entire game. Its the main reason they ended up losing yesterday.
I agree completely. It was stupid of me and I apologize to all who read it. I couldn't believe what I saw, lost my temper, threw a shoe at the TV (hit it), and took out my frustrations with a dumb post here.

Only thing I'll stick with is that Shepherd is a good shooter, but not from the three point line. He has shot threes at 0.287 for the season. And he was forced to take this shot from 10 feet further out from the line, with two defenders in his face. In no way do I blame Shepherd for anything. I could blame Coach Fox, but most coaches, maybe all coaches today would have called the same play. Pete Newell would not have called such a play, because he was more creative than most, and figured his players could get the ball up the floor faster by passing it a few times than by bouncing it several times, and it might lead to a shorter, more open, high percentage shot. I think Pete Newell would have had Shepherd take that shot, as a 10-15 foot shot would be something that Shepherd does better than any player we had available.

I agree with all the comments that you and others have made about all the errors Cal made leading up to the last 4 seconds were more crucial than the last play, and if we did not make them, perhaps we would not have needed to score in the final 4 seconds.



SFCity, I hope your TV is okay! A guy I know is a Tennessee Volunteer football fan and has admitted to, over the years, breaking two different TVs in frustrating moments. He says his Tennessee buddies all have their own "TV counts" (usually 0-4) and that, when he buys, he never gets the latest top-of-the-line screen, because he can't trust himself. I bet that's a normal life for a lot of SEC football fans, but I'm too cheap: I just slap my sofa cushion.
RedlessWardrobe
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SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCity, while I respect your opinion I feel to categorize the last play as "awful" is a bit of a reach. At least it ended up with a guy who is a fairly good shooter getting a shot off. Yes it was from 40 feet but at least there was somewhat of a chance.

You mentioned you just saw the end. If you had watched the whole game you could have certainly tagged your "simply awful" tag on the numerous UNFORCED TURNOVERS that the Bears committed throughout the entire game. Its the main reason they ended up losing yesterday.
I agree completely. It was stupid of me and I apologize to all who read it. I couldn't believe what I saw, lost my temper, threw a shoe at the TV (hit it), and took out my frustrations with a dumb post here.

Only thing I'll stick with is that Shepherd is a good shooter, but not from the three point line. He has shot threes at 0.287 for the season. And he was forced to take this shot from 10 feet further out from the line, with two defenders in his face. In no way do I blame Shepherd for anything. I could blame Coach Fox, but most coaches, maybe all coaches today would have called the same play. Pete Newell would not have called such a play, because he was more creative than most, and figured his players could get the ball up the floor faster by passing it a few times than by bouncing it several times, and it might lead to a shorter, more open, high percentage shot. I think Pete Newell would have had Shepherd take that shot, as a 10-15 foot shot would be something that Shepherd does better than any player we had available.

I agree with all the comments that you and others have made about all the errors Cal made leading up to the last 4 seconds were more crucial than the last play, and if we did not make them, perhaps we would not have needed to score in the final 4 seconds.


SFCity, NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE. Though I disagreed with your statement, it comes nowhere near some of the stuff that all of us have had to read here the last ten years.
Back to the issue, the only guy who could have brought the ball up faster was Joel, but I would still rather see Jordan. To your point, with over 4 seconds left we could have set something up for Grant or Sam. It just didn't happen.
I have to admit, when you said you threw your shoe at the TV I burst out laughing! You always come across here as such a refined analytical type of guy. You let out some built up frustration. Good for you! Sometimes its healthier to take that approach then let it get to you. I'm usually calm but my worst feelings are usually with the refs when we play a game at Maples. They get to me almost every time.
Needless to say Saturday's loss was really tough, but at least the Bears never gave up (especially on the defensive end.) They simply beat themselves on the offensive end. Results, a loss in a winnable game.
HoopDreams
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Agree with everything Red said

I also think a play with one or two passes could have worked, but again is riskier and not sure the ROI on practicing it enough to make it work in 4.3 seconds

Regarding who to take it?

Would have to be a guard with strong dribbling skills to weave between defenders (they weren't going to foul him)

But I don't think a few % on a players 3 point stats are relevant. That type of shot is completely different

Celestine has the highest 3 point %, but would he be able to get to the same spot on the court in control?

It looked to me like the perfect shot. He was running straight in-line with the basket shot it two handed with the perfect arc and distance… hits backboard and perfect spot except to the left

Players practice this shot everyday and coaches very likely knew he was the best ball handler and Hail Mary shooter for this play

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCityBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

SFCity, while I respect your opinion I feel to categorize the last play as "awful" is a bit of a reach. At least it ended up with a guy who is a fairly good shooter getting a shot off. Yes it was from 40 feet but at least there was somewhat of a chance.

You mentioned you just saw the end. If you had watched the whole game you could have certainly tagged your "simply awful" tag on the numerous UNFORCED TURNOVERS that the Bears committed throughout the entire game. Its the main reason they ended up losing yesterday.
I agree completely. It was stupid of me and I apologize to all who read it. I couldn't believe what I saw, lost my temper, threw a shoe at the TV (hit it), and took out my frustrations with a dumb post here.

Only thing I'll stick with is that Shepherd is a good shooter, but not from the three point line. He has shot threes at 0.287 for the season. And he was forced to take this shot from 10 feet further out from the line, with two defenders in his face. In no way do I blame Shepherd for anything. I could blame Coach Fox, but most coaches, maybe all coaches today would have called the same play. Pete Newell would not have called such a play, because he was more creative than most, and figured his players could get the ball up the floor faster by passing it a few times than by bouncing it several times, and it might lead to a shorter, more open, high percentage shot. I think Pete Newell would have had Shepherd take that shot, as a 10-15 foot shot would be something that Shepherd does better than any player we had available.

I agree with all the comments that you and others have made about all the errors Cal made leading up to the last 4 seconds were more crucial than the last play, and if we did not make them, perhaps we would not have needed to score in the final 4 seconds.


SFCity, NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE. Though I disagreed with your statement, it comes nowhere near some of the stuff that all of us have had to read here the last ten years.
Back to the issue, the only guy who could have brought the ball up faster was Joel, but I would still rather see Jordan. To your point, with over 4 seconds left we could have set something up for Grant or Sam. It just didn't happen.
I have to admit, when you said you threw your shoe at the TV I burst out laughing! You always come across here as such a refined analytical type of guy. You let out some built up frustration. Good for you! Sometimes its healthier to take that approach then let it get to you. I'm usually calm but my worst feelings are usually with the refs when we play a game at Maples. They get to me almost every time.
Needless to say Saturday's loss was really tough, but at least the Bears never gave up (especially on the defensive end.) They simply beat themselves on the offensive end. Results, a loss in a winnable game.
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