I guess this is a question for 4thgen, since no one else seems to have information. It appears that Grant Newell has not played in like two months. Is he seriously injured? Many of his IMG academy post grad games are on youtube, but he is always in street clothes.

As of late, can't we pretty much assume that that's what many Cal commits do? They get a fairly serious injury either before or after committing. An injury that hampers them for well more than one season.

It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

BC Calfan said:

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It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

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I saw Newell play before he (likely) got injured. I agree with most of what you said. I think he has a low floor as he has not played much and is not used making a big impact. But he has a high ceiling as he has showed good skill and versatility at his height. But Cal has only one player who can handle the ball who has showed that he can play at the Pac12 level (Brown), so a guard was needed desperately. If he can play away from the basket I think Newell actually makes more sense than Okafor, who brings much of what Thorpe does (assuming Thorpe is coming back).

sluggo said:

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BC Calfan said:

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It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

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I saw Newell play before he (likely) got injured. I agree with most of what you said. I think he has a low floor as he has not played much and is not used making a big impact. But he has a high ceiling as he has showed good skill and versatility at his height. But Cal has only one player who can handle the ball who has showed that he can play at the Pac12 level (Brown), so a guard was needed desperately. If he can play away from the basket I think Newell actually makes more sense than Okafor, who brings much of what Thorpe does (assuming Thorpe is coming back).

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Yes, Fox is trying to recreate his Georgia teams.

We have a lot of 6'6" 6'7" reasonably athletic guys who are still developing their skills, will be happy to be at a P5 school with a good degree and will not question him. I don't see Newell as an obvious upgrade over Alajiki and Celestine.

He did great in finding Shephered, less so in Foreman and Hyder has not been a positive contributor yet (we need him to be next year).

With Shepherd and Foreman leaving and missing out on Mahoney he needed to back to the transfer well for anotger scoring guard that can play PG.

Maybe someone else is leaving or Fox is banking on Hyder or Roberson to be able to play major minutes, including backing up Brown at PG?

89Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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BC Calfan said:

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It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

---

I saw Newell play before he (likely) got injured. I agree with most of what you said. I think he has a low floor as he has not played much and is not used making a big impact. But he has a high ceiling as he has showed good skill and versatility at his height. But Cal has only one player who can handle the ball who has showed that he can play at the Pac12 level (Brown), so a guard was needed desperately. If he can play away from the basket I think Newell actually makes more sense than Okafor, who brings much of what Thorpe does (assuming Thorpe is coming back).

---

Yes, Fox is trying to recreate his Georgia teams.

We have a lot of 6'6" 6'7" reasonably athletic guys who are still developing their skills, will be happy to be at a P5 school with a good degree and will not question him. I don't see Newell as an obvious upgrade over Alajiki and Celestine.

He did great in finding Shephered, less so in Foreman and Hyder has not been a positive contributor yet (we need him to be next year).

With Shepherd and Foreman leaving and missing out on Mahoney he needed to back to the transfer well for anotger scoring guard that can play PG.

Maybe someone else is leaving or Fox is banking on Hyder or Roberson to be able to play major minutes, including backing up Brown at PG?

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Celestine, in my opinion, is a future all-conference level player. I think he will be very, very good at both ends.

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If he is one of our best players (I agree), a future all conference player,shouldn't he play more? As a freshman Celestine started in 5 of our 29 games and logged 281 of our 5,800 minutes (less than 5%). This year he started in 13 of 28 games and logged 703 of 5,850 minutes (12%). There is talk of him being injured but he played in every game but one last year and the same this year.

One way to be better is to to play your best players, more. I also think Fox would be better able to point to having a young team with rising stars if those players were on the court getting more experience, making a bigger impact.

calumnus said:

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89Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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BC Calfan said:

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It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

---

I saw Newell play before he (likely) got injured. I agree with most of what you said. I think he has a low floor as he has not played much and is not used making a big impact. But he has a high ceiling as he has showed good skill and versatility at his height. But Cal has only one player who can handle the ball who has showed that he can play at the Pac12 level (Brown), so a guard was needed desperately. If he can play away from the basket I think Newell actually makes more sense than Okafor, who brings much of what Thorpe does (assuming Thorpe is coming back).

---

Yes, Fox is trying to recreate his Georgia teams.

We have a lot of 6'6" 6'7" reasonably athletic guys who are still developing their skills, will be happy to be at a P5 school with a good degree and will not question him. I don't see Newell as an obvious upgrade over Alajiki and Celestine.

He did great in finding Shephered, less so in Foreman and Hyder has not been a positive contributor yet (we need him to be next year).

With Shepherd and Foreman leaving and missing out on Mahoney he needed to back to the transfer well for anotger scoring guard that can play PG.

Maybe someone else is leaving or Fox is banking on Hyder or Roberson to be able to play major minutes, including backing up Brown at PG?

---

Celestine, in my opinion, is a future all-conference level player. I think he will be very, very good at both ends.

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If he is one of our best players (I agree), a future all conference player,shouldn't he play more? As a freshman Celestine started in 5 of our 29 games and logged 281 of our 5,800 minutes (less than 5%). This year he started in 13 of 28 games and logged 703 of 5,850 minutes (12%). There is talk of him being injured but he played in every game but one last year and the same this year.

One way to be better is to to play your best players, more. I also think Fox would be better able to point to having a young team with rising stars if those players were on the court getting more experience, making a bigger impact.

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the health of a player is a factor in his PT

just ask Kerr about Thompson after his return from injury

HoopDreams said:

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calumnus said:

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89Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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BC Calfan said:

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It's very hard to get any info on Grant.

He appears to be a Kuany type of recruit and the type which Fox favors. Decent length, average athleticism, not recruited highly so probably a good attitude, and capable of molding. Even when playing he didn't appear to be making a big impact. I know his team is loaded, like Kuany's at Prolific, but to expect him to be a factor on arrival is unlikely.

Kind of a head scratcher. We badly need guards and when we lost out on Uzan, we immediately got Grant who's a 6'8 SF.

---

I saw Newell play before he (likely) got injured. I agree with most of what you said. I think he has a low floor as he has not played much and is not used making a big impact. But he has a high ceiling as he has showed good skill and versatility at his height. But Cal has only one player who can handle the ball who has showed that he can play at the Pac12 level (Brown), so a guard was needed desperately. If he can play away from the basket I think Newell actually makes more sense than Okafor, who brings much of what Thorpe does (assuming Thorpe is coming back).

---

Yes, Fox is trying to recreate his Georgia teams.

We have a lot of 6'6" 6'7" reasonably athletic guys who are still developing their skills, will be happy to be at a P5 school with a good degree and will not question him. I don't see Newell as an obvious upgrade over Alajiki and Celestine.

He did great in finding Shephered, less so in Foreman and Hyder has not been a positive contributor yet (we need him to be next year).

With Shepherd and Foreman leaving and missing out on Mahoney he needed to back to the transfer well for anotger scoring guard that can play PG.

Maybe someone else is leaving or Fox is banking on Hyder or Roberson to be able to play major minutes, including backing up Brown at PG?

---

Celestine, in my opinion, is a future all-conference level player. I think he will be very, very good at both ends.

---

If he is one of our best players (I agree), a future all conference player,shouldn't he play more? As a freshman Celestine started in 5 of our 29 games and logged 281 of our 5,800 minutes (less than 5%). This year he started in 13 of 28 games and logged 703 of 5,850 minutes (12%). There is talk of him being injured but he played in every game but one last year and the same this year.

One way to be better is to to play your best players, more. I also think Fox would be better able to point to having a young team with rising stars if those players were on the court getting more experience, making a bigger impact.

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the health of a player is a factor in his PT

just ask Kerr about Thompson after his return from injury

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Klay Thompson has started in every game of the 17 he played in averaging 25.2 minutes per game.

If he was hurt, he didn't play. When he was healthy enough to play, he started and played starters' minutes.

Celestine has played in 50 games, but only started in 18. If he was healthy enough to play, and play well….?

Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, tgst is why he played more than anyone else?

calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, that is why he played more than anyone else?

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? - Not that I am aware. Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? - Doubtful as he had a mid-season appendectomy. He did have an extra season to play tho. Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, tgst is why he played more than anyone else? - I doubt that was the determining factor why he logged the most minutes unless every other player was injured in some way.

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Not quite sure what you are trying to argue, but my answers to your questions above are in bold. Your initial response referencing Klay Thompson had to do with Celestine's and whether or not he will turn out to be a good player. Even if his injury was not a factor in his minutes this year, he did log the second-most minutes out of next year's returning players at arguably Cal's deepest position. The jury is still out on how good he will be, but IMO he is the best-looking underclassman we have had in a while outside of Bradley.

Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? - Not that I am aware. Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? - Doubtful as he had a mid-season appendectomy. He did have an extra season to play tho. Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, tgst is why he played more than anyone else? - I doubt that was the determining factor why he logged the most minutes unless every other player was injured in some way.

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Not quite sure what you are trying to argue, but my answers to your questions above are in bold. Your initial response referencing Klay Thompson had to do with Celestine's and whether or not he will turn out to be a good player. Even if his injury was not a factor in his minutes this year, he did log the second-most minutes out of next year's returning players at arguably Cal's deepest position. The jury is still out on how good he will be, but IMO he is the best-looking underclassman we have had in a while outside of Bradley.

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I was more referencing Celestine last year, Alajiki this year and Kelly the first two years as guys I wanted to see as consistent starters and get starters minutes. Instead Fox started and gave major minutes to (and a green light to) others that were not as good, both by my observation and as backed up by the advanced stats. Kelly and Celestine got major minutes this year,as I wanted last year. Lars also was showing up as one of our best players last year and this, and I thought was deserving of more time.

The great coaches tend to tighten up their rotations to maximize the minutes of their best players. Fox plays slow, there is little advantage to such a deep rotation.

Early on this season I would have liked to see Shepherd, Celestine, Alajiki, Kelly, Lars as the starting lineup, getting major minutes with the caveat that we might need to start Brown in certain matchups or if Sheherd cannot handle the PG role.

The counter has been that Fox was forced to start and give the most minutes on the team to players who weee not playing well because he had to limit the minutes of the players who were playing the best due to their poor health and/or conditioning. My thought is if they are playing the best, thst is evidence that their health and conditioning must be pretty good. Play them until their play is effected by their health and conditioning?

calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? - Not that I am aware. Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? - Doubtful as he had a mid-season appendectomy. He did have an extra season to play tho. Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, tgst is why he played more than anyone else? - I doubt that was the determining factor why he logged the most minutes unless every other player was injured in some way.

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Not quite sure what you are trying to argue, but my answers to your questions above are in bold. Your initial response referencing Klay Thompson had to do with Celestine's and whether or not he will turn out to be a good player. Even if his injury was not a factor in his minutes this year, he did log the second-most minutes out of next year's returning players at arguably Cal's deepest position. The jury is still out on how good he will be, but IMO he is the best-looking underclassman we have had in a while outside of Bradley.

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I was more referencing Celestine last year, Alajiki this year and Kelly the first two years as guys I wanted to see as consistent starters and get starters minutes. Instead Fox started and gave major minutes to (and a green light to) others that were not as good, both by my observation and as backed up by the advanced stats. Kelly and Celestine got major minutes this year,as I wanted last year. Lars also was showing up as one of our best players last year and this, and I thought was deserving of more time.

The great coaches tend to tighten up their rotations to maximize the minutes of their best players. Fox plays slow, there is little advantage to such a deep rotation.

Early on this season I would have liked to see Shepherd, Celestine, Alajiki, Kelly, Lars as the starting lineup, getting major minutes with the caveat that we might need to start Brown in certain matchups or if Sheherd cannot handle the PG role.

The counter has been that Fox was forced to start and give the most minutes on the team to players who weee not playing well because he had to limit the minutes of the players who were playing the best due to their poor health and/or conditioning. My thought is if they are playing the best, thst is evidence that their health and conditioning must be pretty good. Play them until their play is effected by their health and conditioning?

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In that case, Celestine was definitely coming off a serious injury. I would guess Fox wants to play whoever he thinks will give the best chance of winning. We have a lot of middling players, so it is understandable it would take him some time to works things out.

#lookatmedefendingfox

Grant Newel is generating Chauca-like interest from me.

As much as I liked our ivy grad transfers as people, that avenue is not going to move the needle in terms of a program shift even back to mediocrity.

Chauca was a reach to fill a desperate need for a backup PG. Newell seems way beyond that level.

To me, looking at where we stand now, the way Fox doles out playing time seems way down on our list of problems.

calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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Just a WAG, but I'll go out on a limb and say Klay averaged more than 25mpg prior to his injury.

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OK, was Alajiki 9th in minutes this year due to injury? - Not that I am aware. Has Grant been the healthiest player in Cal history? - Doubtful as he had a mid-season appendectomy. He did have an extra season to play tho. Betley was the healthiest player on the team last year, tgst is why he played more than anyone else? - I doubt that was the determining factor why he logged the most minutes unless every other player was injured in some way.

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Not quite sure what you are trying to argue, but my answers to your questions above are in bold. Your initial response referencing Klay Thompson had to do with Celestine's and whether or not he will turn out to be a good player. Even if his injury was not a factor in his minutes this year, he did log the second-most minutes out of next year's returning players at arguably Cal's deepest position. The jury is still out on how good he will be, but IMO he is the best-looking underclassman we have had in a while outside of Bradley.

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I was more referencing Celestine last year, Alajiki this year and Kelly the first two years as guys I wanted to see as consistent starters and get starters minutes. Instead Fox started and gave major minutes to (and a green light to) others that were not as good, both by my observation and as backed up by the advanced stats. Kelly and Celestine got major minutes this year,as I wanted last year. Lars also was showing up as one of our best players last year and this, and I thought was deserving of more time.

The great coaches tend to tighten up their rotations to maximize the minutes of their best players. Fox plays slow, there is little advantage to such a deep rotation.

Early on this season I would have liked to see Shepherd, Celestine, Alajiki, Kelly, Lars as the starting lineup, getting major minutes with the caveat that we might need to start Brown in certain matchups or if Sheherd cannot handle the PG role.

The counter has been that Fox was forced to start and give the most minutes on the team to players who weee not playing well because he had to limit the minutes of the players who were playing the best due to their poor health and/or conditioning. My thought is if they are playing the best, thst is evidence that their health and conditioning must be pretty good. Play them until their play is effected by their health and conditioning?

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In that case, Celestine was definitely coming off a serious injury. I would guess Fox wants to play whoever he thinks will give the best chance of winning. We have a lot of middling players, so it is understandable it would take him some time to works things out.

#lookatmedefendingfox

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Yes, but he played in every game and was one of our best players when playing. Meanwhile Betley lead the team in minutes played and three point shots attempted dispute being one of our least effective players. I think we could have played Celestine more and Betley less.

It is a simple proposition, don't complain about what you don't have when you don't even use what you have.

I have no doubt Fox is trying to win, but his record suggests he is just not very good at it.

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Last season Fox's lineups seemed random. This season it seems like he give everyone minutes in the first half and then plays his best guys basically all of the second half. Sometimes fouls or match ups get in the way, but the choices make sense to me.

Can we talk about how he wastes timeouts? He calls "Howland" timeouts, which are timeouts at random times after offensive scores. With fewer timeouts in the college game I don't get why he does this. As far as I know, Ben Howland never explained the strategy.