KoreAmBear said:

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Big C said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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mdbear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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Dennis Gates will prob win a game in the Tourney in a couple weeks and parlay it into a P5 gig. And that ship will sail for us. Can't wait.

BTW one grad transfer, even the caliber of Shep, doesn't do a whole lot for us next year. Our lack of talent and abysmal recruiting is WAY deeper than that. If anything a good grad transfer will prevent the development of our younger guys. I'd rather get a halfway decent freshman guard but Fox literally hasn't added one in his 3 years here.

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Knowlton is crazy to let Dennis Gates slip away and bet on Fox. Both coaches took over terrible teams three years ago. In his second year, Fox finished last in the conference, and this year he is tied for 10th. In his second year, Gates tied for first in his conference, and he is tied for first again this year. In his nine years at Georgia, Fox made the tournament twice. Gates is likely to do that in his third year as a head coach. Seriously, what is Knowlton thinking?

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I doubt Knowlton even knows who Gates is. The impression I get from him, I wouldn't be surprised if he can't even name all 12 head coaches in the conference.

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Same here. We're a couple of dozen (on a good week) posters on a fan site and we have a decent short list already developed. It's his darn job and I bet his very first move would be to call back that search firm.

I know that sounds really cynical, but I can't imagine, if you gave him a piece of paper with the following written on it . . .

Dennis Gates
Shantay Legans
Todd Golden
"Kickboxer" Pasternak

. . . that those names would mean anything at all to him. Sad.

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I don't know what the story is with Randy Bennett, whether we/he ever expressed interest. I would take him in a heart beat over anyone. Proven winner/recruiter on a national level. Being consistently on or right near the Top 25 I would say is being a player on a national level. He wouldn't have to move and his commute would be just about the same.

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Supposedly Bennet interviewed one of the times (when we hired Monty or Cuonzo?) and he didn't interview very well. (Who the heck knows if that's true.) Maybe it was the time we were going to hire Monty, but before Monty fell into our lap.

The last decade or so, I think Bennett has preferred his steady success in a smaller pond. If he were at Cal, I'm not sure he would recruit much better than Fox.

BeachedBear said:

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Big Dog said:

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stu said:

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Big Dog said:

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stu said:

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Is 71-44 close?

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if we're gonna be a bottom-dweller, why not let Fox complete his contract and then we can replace him with any young coach for 1/3 the price. Outcome will be the same.

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I think the outcome would be better sooner if the new coach were here in time to recruit the 2023-24 class, which will have a lot of openings.

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That assumes Knowlton wants to win. But his recent support of an extension for Fox does not give one confidence -- at least to me -- that Knowlton wants to win. (So, my earlier post was a bit of sarcasm. If the AD is happy living in the bottom of the p12 and cashing network checks to fund the rest of the athletics, then go to a cheap, young coach. He might get lucky and win 5-6 conference games, and be much cheaper than Fox, saving money for other sports.)

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I posted something similar on the Haas section of this site. Continuing with FOX is probably the easiest (and therefore most likely) option for Knowlton. But it is not the cheapest. There are many coaches (I posted a list of dozens of names on another thread) that couldn't do any worse than FOX and most of those could probably save Cal seven figures a year in compensation.

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yeah, I borrowed your idea from the other thread. Sorry, shoulda gave credit where due.

This site is a broken record.

If you're having trouble coming up with a new thread topic, may I suggest you choose one of these classics:

- "Cal" vs. "Berkeley"
- The Newell Big Man Camp
- Share your personal history with Kips
- Should the students be moved off the 50 yard line?
- Piped in music: yay or nay?
- I saw a red Cal hat! Discuss.
- The pH of water at Cal sporting events.
- Who is Aaron Rodgers dating?
- Is Randy Bennett available? What about Chris Petersen?
- Gremlins
- Desean Jackson's toe and Makonnen's slip.
- I'm a moron and I think stars don't matter.
- Monday night football introductions.
- They ran out of hot chocolate again.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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This site is a broken record.

If you're having trouble coming up with a new thread topic, may I suggest you choose one of these classics:

- "Cal" vs. "Berkeley"
- The Newell Big Man Camp
- Share your personal history with Kips
- Should the students be moved off the 50 yard line?
- Piped in music: yay or nay?
- I saw a red Cal hat! Discuss.
- The pH of water at Cal sporting events.
- Who is Aaron Rodgers dating?
- Is Randy Bennett available? What about Chris Petersen?
- Gremlins
- Desean Jackson's toe and Makonnen's slip.
- I'm a moron and I think stars don't matter.
- Monday night football introductions.
- They ran out of hot chocolate again.

---

This is easily my favorite CIG post of all time.

Um, hello....burritos!

Definitely burritos.

Didn't we used to have a food board on BI? Or was that another site?

Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

He has previously declined the chance to interview. He's not interested.

ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

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He is my guy. I remember how everyone was drawn to him.

ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

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I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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This site is a broken record.

If you're having trouble coming up with a new thread topic, may I suggest you choose one of these classics:

- "Cal" vs. "Berkeley"
- The Newell Big Man Camp
- Share your personal history with Kips
- Should the students be moved off the 50 yard line?
- Piped in music: yay or nay?
- I saw a red Cal hat! Discuss.
- The pH of water at Cal sporting events.
- Who is Aaron Rodgers dating?
- Is Randy Bennett available? What about Chris Petersen?
- Gremlins
- Desean Jackson's toe and Makonnen's slip.
- I'm a moron and I think stars don't matter.
- Monday night football introductions.
- They ran out of hot chocolate again.

---

Add in:

--CIG posts when Yogi isn't available

Knowlton better get busy to ink that extension before one of the big boys comes calling for Fox. (/sarcasm font)



https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401377490

Maybe Mizzou can save us again if they move on from cuonzo.

calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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BeachedBear said:

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ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

---

I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

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I think one key point to note here, though, is that Fox inherited a program that Trent Johnson built up. Nevada made it to the sweet 16 in Johnson's last year. Fox took Nevada to the NCAA tournament the next three years, but missed the tournament his last two years at Nevada. So I don't know that the situations were similar enough to say Fox would do great at Portland.

Seems like both Gates and Legans have come into less than ideal situations and actually turned them around, something Fox has never really done.

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Fox would not be good at Portland, he has never turned around a program. He is a terrible recruiter.

Fox would be a reasonable hire by Knowlton at VMI or Air Force, where Knowlton shoukd still be the AD.

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

I feel like getting either Mahaney or the other guard they were after was one of the keys to saving this program (not that that would've done it, in and of itself). In any event. bringing in only Okafor and Newell is unlikely to help much and, oh, there are no open scholarships as of right now.

Big C said:

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I feel like getting either Mahaney or the other guard they were after was one of the keys to saving this program (not that that would've done it, in and of itself). In any event. bringing in only Okafor and Newell is unlikely to help much and, oh, there are no open scholarships as of right now.

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I think the hope was Mahoney at PG and 5 star O'Dowd big Jalen Lewis. With O'Dowd teammates Bowser and Roberson as part of the package to help pull Mahoney and Lewis to Cal.

CalLifer said:

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BeachedBear said:

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ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

---

I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

---

I think one key point to note here, though, is that Fox inherited a program that Trent Johnson built up. Nevada made it to the sweet 16 in Johnson's last year. Fox took Nevada to the NCAA tournament the next three years, but missed the tournament his last two years at Nevada. So I don't know that the situations were similar enough to say Fox would do great at Portland.

Seems like both Gates and Legans have come into less than ideal situations and actually turned them around, something Fox has never really done.

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Agreed, I learned a while ago if level 1 analysis is obvious, don't bore the audience with level 2 or 3 analysis

It is obvious that California is afflicted with a virulent March seasonal malady. Knowlton needs to engage the California supporters and secure the resources necessary to immunize the basketball program with a vaccine that will revitalize the basketball program's health.

Will the practice facility be completed before Knowlton makes a decision about Fox?

Stubborn? Excuses? Is that why Knowlton felt such a close connection to Fox?

Knowlton, like the Fed (Jerome Powell), sees the problem as "transitory". Wow, how wrong they both are!!

Fox scouts the girlfriends of recruits to see which players will have the best offspring. It is a 20 year plan. Give him time.

wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

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stu said:

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Cal8285 said:

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KAB isn't wrong about the pros of the culture, and it certainly results in the players giving effort virtually every night, that's a good thing. You are also correct about the cons, however, and in terms of having a winning program at Cal, the cons outweigh the pros, it is a horrible recipe for a winning program. Hard to recruit, hard to keep quality players on the team in the era of transfers without a sit out year.

One minor correction, you don't only get yelled at while losing, sometimes you get yelled at while winning, too. Either way, not the approach for recruiting and keeping top talent.

The style of play isn't particularly fun to play (or watch), either, and makes the players feel like they are defying the coach if they take a quality shot too early in the clock. A player thinks, "This is good basketball, I need to take the shot, but I need to make it or coach will be pissed that I took it, and he might be pissed even if I make it," and then he's thinking too much and has a lower shooting percentage on those quality shots.

If the "middle of the Pac" is defined as being 5th through 8th best in the conference, then our ceiling is middle of the Pac, but that ceiling is the low part of the middle of the Pac.

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1) I agree with your culture comments. I think what we're doing will harm our recruiting.

2) I also agree with your definition of "middle of the Pac". Unfortunately I don't see how we can reach that level without a significant upswing in recruiting. See 1) above.

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If the rest of the conference continues in its mediocrity, then we can get to the "middle of the Pac" without a significant upswing in recruiting, but that doesn't make the state of the program less depressing.

We beat the team currently in 4th on their home floor. That isn't because we're all that good, but Oregon is inconsistent and often not that good. Look at their OOC results. Blown out in Portland (not home, but not that neutral) by BYU by 32(!). Loses to St. Mary's by 12 in Vegas. Loses to Houston by 29 in Vegas. Only wins by 6 at home against Riverside. Their best OOC game was a home loss to Baylor by 8.

And the middle of the Pac is all worse that the 4th place Ducks. Unfortunately, right now, middle of the Pac isn't that big a deal. If Kelly doesn't get hurt, we might have gotten to 8. We probably win at least two of the four home games against the Washingtons and the Mountain schools, and maybe more. We might have beaten Stanford at Maples, we would have had a better chance tonight against ASU (we still have a chance), and who knows, we might have pulled out the game at USC.

And earlier this season, it didn't look like UW or ASU were going to get their acts together enough to be middle of the Pac. 6th place wasn't out of the question until we went to Washington and got swept.

While I think the lower part of the middle of the Pac (i.e., 8th place, maybe 7th) is our ceiling without a significant upswing in recruiting, that is because of the current quality of the middle of the Pac. Things will need to go right, staying healthy with the guys we get, getting breaks in close games, having the bottom 8 of the Pac-12 stay mediocre to poor. But it is doable.

But 7th or 8th when the conference is down is the ceiling? That is a depressing thought.

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I think Fox is a decent coach.. He is a terrible recruiter, and I honesty don't see the talent next year for anything close the middle of a second rate Pac conference. Shepard and Ant are gone, Kelly probably is gone, which is essential all the offense. And this for a program that earned the no. 12 seed in the Pac tourney. It is one thing to be a positive, another to be delusional. No one really seems to care much about Cal basketball. I don't see donors rushing to the AD saying make a change. The ceiling probably is 10th, absent Okafor being a surprise (his films looks like he is athletic, but raw).
Expect to finsh 10 to 12. For a school that prides i

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Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

Our conference record will also depend on the competition. What's the prognosis for the other teams near the bottom?

Easy, guys... Knowlton puts his pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, when his pants are on, he destroys athletic programs.

Big C said:

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Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

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This is Fox's third head coaching job. In all of his years as a head coach, AFAIK he has *never* brought in any transfers who played well enough to elevate the level of the team.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

This site is a broken record.

If you're having trouble coming up with a new thread topic, may I suggest you choose one of these classics:

- "Cal" vs. "Berkeley"
- The Newell Big Man Camp
- Share your personal history with Kips
- Should the students be moved off the 50 yard line?
- Piped in music: yay or nay?
- I saw a red Cal hat! Discuss.
- The pH of water at Cal sporting events.
- Who is Aaron Rodgers dating?
- Is Randy Bennett available? What about Chris Petersen?
- Gremlins
- Desean Jackson's toe and Makonnen's slip.
- I'm a moron and I think stars don't matter.
- Monday night football introductions.
- They ran out of hot chocolate again.

---

incredible list. I'd add any "Hey, Dodgers Fans" post from insufferable Giants fans (A's fan here, eyes glazing over)

Big C said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

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stu said:

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Cal8285 said:

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KAB isn't wrong about the pros of the culture, and it certainly results in the players giving effort virtually every night, that's a good thing. You are also correct about the cons, however, and in terms of having a winning program at Cal, the cons outweigh the pros, it is a horrible recipe for a winning program. Hard to recruit, hard to keep quality players on the team in the era of transfers without a sit out year.

One minor correction, you don't only get yelled at while losing, sometimes you get yelled at while winning, too. Either way, not the approach for recruiting and keeping top talent.

The style of play isn't particularly fun to play (or watch), either, and makes the players feel like they are defying the coach if they take a quality shot too early in the clock. A player thinks, "This is good basketball, I need to take the shot, but I need to make it or coach will be pissed that I took it, and he might be pissed even if I make it," and then he's thinking too much and has a lower shooting percentage on those quality shots.

If the "middle of the Pac" is defined as being 5th through 8th best in the conference, then our ceiling is middle of the Pac, but that ceiling is the low part of the middle of the Pac.

---

1) I agree with your culture comments. I think what we're doing will harm our recruiting.

2) I also agree with your definition of "middle of the Pac". Unfortunately I don't see how we can reach that level without a significant upswing in recruiting. See 1) above.

---

If the rest of the conference continues in its mediocrity, then we can get to the "middle of the Pac" without a significant upswing in recruiting, but that doesn't make the state of the program less depressing.

We beat the team currently in 4th on their home floor. That isn't because we're all that good, but Oregon is inconsistent and often not that good. Look at their OOC results. Blown out in Portland (not home, but not that neutral) by BYU by 32(!). Loses to St. Mary's by 12 in Vegas. Loses to Houston by 29 in Vegas. Only wins by 6 at home against Riverside. Their best OOC game was a home loss to Baylor by 8.

And the middle of the Pac is all worse that the 4th place Ducks. Unfortunately, right now, middle of the Pac isn't that big a deal. If Kelly doesn't get hurt, we might have gotten to 8. We probably win at least two of the four home games against the Washingtons and the Mountain schools, and maybe more. We might have beaten Stanford at Maples, we would have had a better chance tonight against ASU (we still have a chance), and who knows, we might have pulled out the game at USC.

And earlier this season, it didn't look like UW or ASU were going to get their acts together enough to be middle of the Pac. 6th place wasn't out of the question until we went to Washington and got swept.

While I think the lower part of the middle of the Pac (i.e., 8th place, maybe 7th) is our ceiling without a significant upswing in recruiting, that is because of the current quality of the middle of the Pac. Things will need to go right, staying healthy with the guys we get, getting breaks in close games, having the bottom 8 of the Pac-12 stay mediocre to poor. But it is doable.

But 7th or 8th when the conference is down is the ceiling? That is a depressing thought.

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I think Fox is a decent coach.. He is a terrible recruiter, and I honesty don't see the talent next year for anything close the middle of a second rate Pac conference. Shepard and Ant are gone, Kelly probably is gone, which is essential all the offense. And this for a program that earned the no. 12 seed in the Pac tourney. It is one thing to be a positive, another to be delusional. No one really seems to care much about Cal basketball. I don't see donors rushing to the AD saying make a change. The ceiling probably is 10th, absent Okafor being a surprise (his films looks like he is athletic, but raw).
Expect to finsh 10 to 12. For a school that prides i

---

Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

---

or,

c. Fox retires and we bring in a young up-and-comer. (Sure, he'll make some mistakes but also raise the ceilings of games we might win.)