stu said:

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Our conference record will also depend on the competition. What's the prognosis for the other teams near the bottom?

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Well, Cal won' be touching UCLA, SC, ASU (with had the numbers 3 Pac recruiting class last year), UofA, Oregon and Colorado. I don't know where Furd's personnel ends upon next year, but they will look good and fall apart like the last 4 seasons running. So I'm guessing 9th

Washington seems improved and probably is headed to the Pac middle. WSU is moving up as well. So that doesn't really leave much.

OSU after a great 2020/1 became a dumpster fire. They have some talent, but injuries were a problem, and they played a lot of young players. They got some transfers. On paper they should be better. Pure guess work.

Utah: no idea. Not sure the new coach as any idea either. So it looks like Cal, OSU and Utah fight it out for the basement.

wifeisafurd said:

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stu said:

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Our conference record will also depend on the competition. What's the prognosis for the other teams near the bottom?

---

Well, Cal won' be touching UCLA, SC, ASU (with had the numbers 3 Pac recruiting class last year), UofA, Oregon and Colorado. I don't know where Furd's personnel ends upon next year, but they will look good and fall apart like the last 4 seasons running. So I'm guessing 9th

Washington seems improved and probably is headed to the Pac middle. WSU is moving up as well. So that doesn't really leave much.

OSU after a great 2020/1 became a dumpster fire. They have some talent, but injuries were a problem, and they played a lot of young players. They got some transfers. On paper they should be better. Pure guess work.

Utah: no idea. Not sure the new coach as any idea either. So it looks like Cal, OSU and Utah fight it out for the basement.

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Good breakdown. The good news (for them) is that Utah won't be down for long - not in their Bball DNA. So that leaves Cal and OSU. OSU, however, is investing in their facilities, has a better coaching staff that does a good job recruiting diamonds and transfers. So there's that.

By the time FOX is up for another extension. Knowlton and Fox will have Cal in rarefied air all by themselves (but with a great foundational culture of loveable scamps who play their hearts out to crowds of hundreds).

4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

calumnus said:

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Big Dog said:

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Big C said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

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stu said:

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Cal8285 said:

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KAB isn't wrong about the pros of the culture, and it certainly results in the players giving effort virtually every night, that's a good thing. You are also correct about the cons, however, and in terms of having a winning program at Cal, the cons outweigh the pros, it is a horrible recipe for a winning program. Hard to recruit, hard to keep quality players on the team in the era of transfers without a sit out year.

One minor correction, you don't only get yelled at while losing, sometimes you get yelled at while winning, too. Either way, not the approach for recruiting and keeping top talent.

The style of play isn't particularly fun to play (or watch), either, and makes the players feel like they are defying the coach if they take a quality shot too early in the clock. A player thinks, "This is good basketball, I need to take the shot, but I need to make it or coach will be pissed that I took it, and he might be pissed even if I make it," and then he's thinking too much and has a lower shooting percentage on those quality shots.

If the "middle of the Pac" is defined as being 5th through 8th best in the conference, then our ceiling is middle of the Pac, but that ceiling is the low part of the middle of the Pac.

---

1) I agree with your culture comments. I think what we're doing will harm our recruiting.

2) I also agree with your definition of "middle of the Pac". Unfortunately I don't see how we can reach that level without a significant upswing in recruiting. See 1) above.

---

If the rest of the conference continues in its mediocrity, then we can get to the "middle of the Pac" without a significant upswing in recruiting, but that doesn't make the state of the program less depressing.

We beat the team currently in 4th on their home floor. That isn't because we're all that good, but Oregon is inconsistent and often not that good. Look at their OOC results. Blown out in Portland (not home, but not that neutral) by BYU by 32(!). Loses to St. Mary's by 12 in Vegas. Loses to Houston by 29 in Vegas. Only wins by 6 at home against Riverside. Their best OOC game was a home loss to Baylor by 8.

And the middle of the Pac is all worse that the 4th place Ducks. Unfortunately, right now, middle of the Pac isn't that big a deal. If Kelly doesn't get hurt, we might have gotten to 8. We probably win at least two of the four home games against the Washingtons and the Mountain schools, and maybe more. We might have beaten Stanford at Maples, we would have had a better chance tonight against ASU (we still have a chance), and who knows, we might have pulled out the game at USC.

And earlier this season, it didn't look like UW or ASU were going to get their acts together enough to be middle of the Pac. 6th place wasn't out of the question until we went to Washington and got swept.

While I think the lower part of the middle of the Pac (i.e., 8th place, maybe 7th) is our ceiling without a significant upswing in recruiting, that is because of the current quality of the middle of the Pac. Things will need to go right, staying healthy with the guys we get, getting breaks in close games, having the bottom 8 of the Pac-12 stay mediocre to poor. But it is doable.

But 7th or 8th when the conference is down is the ceiling? That is a depressing thought.

---

I think Fox is a decent coach.. He is a terrible recruiter, and I honesty don't see the talent next year for anything close the middle of a second rate Pac conference. Shepard and Ant are gone, Kelly probably is gone, which is essential all the offense. And this for a program that earned the no. 12 seed in the Pac tourney. It is one thing to be a positive, another to be delusional. No one really seems to care much about Cal basketball. I don't see donors rushing to the AD saying make a change. The ceiling probably is 10th, absent Okafor being a surprise (his films looks like he is athletic, but raw).
Expect to finsh 10 to 12. For a school that prides i

---

Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

---

or,

c. Fox retires and we bring in a young up-and-comer. (Sure, he'll make some mistakes but also raise the ceilings of games we might win.)

---

I would rank the chances of Fox retiring (or getting hired away) somewhere around the chance that aliens come to Earth and steal the powers of NBA All-Stars, then transfer them to our players in order to beat Buggs Bunny and the Looney Tunes cartoon characters in a game of basketball.

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Yeah, I know, but I was really dreaming that another P5 school had an AD more clueless than Knowlton and who might think Fox is just what they need.

sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

---

Can't answer #1 but history shows poor judgement on the hoops side and hopefully he will listen to local respected coaches who understand the obstacles one faces at Cal. Credit though to retaining Wilcox, despite Oregon making 2 separate very strong offers. #2 - Knowlton has really worked hard and effectively to get the many necessary campus approvals(only at Cal) over the past 18 months and has gotten Chancellor Chryst buy in, which is absolutely required (He does have an excellent working relationship there). He is also a personable/outgoing person who thru his outward optimism, will be effective in the upcoming fund raising drive. Another issue to overcome is his reluctance to fire Fox now, for the reasons mentioned earlier, coupled with "its his guy" and Fox has effectively laid out the "unfortunate occurrences/inherited state of program etc" over the past 3 seasons. Very frustrating to put it mildly - but unless there is a mass defection, the HC will have his 4th season.

Big Dog said:

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Big C said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

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stu said:

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Cal8285 said:

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KAB isn't wrong about the pros of the culture, and it certainly results in the players giving effort virtually every night, that's a good thing. You are also correct about the cons, however, and in terms of having a winning program at Cal, the cons outweigh the pros, it is a horrible recipe for a winning program. Hard to recruit, hard to keep quality players on the team in the era of transfers without a sit out year.

One minor correction, you don't only get yelled at while losing, sometimes you get yelled at while winning, too. Either way, not the approach for recruiting and keeping top talent.

The style of play isn't particularly fun to play (or watch), either, and makes the players feel like they are defying the coach if they take a quality shot too early in the clock. A player thinks, "This is good basketball, I need to take the shot, but I need to make it or coach will be pissed that I took it, and he might be pissed even if I make it," and then he's thinking too much and has a lower shooting percentage on those quality shots.

If the "middle of the Pac" is defined as being 5th through 8th best in the conference, then our ceiling is middle of the Pac, but that ceiling is the low part of the middle of the Pac.

---

1) I agree with your culture comments. I think what we're doing will harm our recruiting.

2) I also agree with your definition of "middle of the Pac". Unfortunately I don't see how we can reach that level without a significant upswing in recruiting. See 1) above.

---

If the rest of the conference continues in its mediocrity, then we can get to the "middle of the Pac" without a significant upswing in recruiting, but that doesn't make the state of the program less depressing.

We beat the team currently in 4th on their home floor. That isn't because we're all that good, but Oregon is inconsistent and often not that good. Look at their OOC results. Blown out in Portland (not home, but not that neutral) by BYU by 32(!). Loses to St. Mary's by 12 in Vegas. Loses to Houston by 29 in Vegas. Only wins by 6 at home against Riverside. Their best OOC game was a home loss to Baylor by 8.

And the middle of the Pac is all worse that the 4th place Ducks. Unfortunately, right now, middle of the Pac isn't that big a deal. If Kelly doesn't get hurt, we might have gotten to 8. We probably win at least two of the four home games against the Washingtons and the Mountain schools, and maybe more. We might have beaten Stanford at Maples, we would have had a better chance tonight against ASU (we still have a chance), and who knows, we might have pulled out the game at USC.

And earlier this season, it didn't look like UW or ASU were going to get their acts together enough to be middle of the Pac. 6th place wasn't out of the question until we went to Washington and got swept.

While I think the lower part of the middle of the Pac (i.e., 8th place, maybe 7th) is our ceiling without a significant upswing in recruiting, that is because of the current quality of the middle of the Pac. Things will need to go right, staying healthy with the guys we get, getting breaks in close games, having the bottom 8 of the Pac-12 stay mediocre to poor. But it is doable.

But 7th or 8th when the conference is down is the ceiling? That is a depressing thought.

---

I think Fox is a decent coach.. He is a terrible recruiter, and I honesty don't see the talent next year for anything close the middle of a second rate Pac conference. Shepard and Ant are gone, Kelly probably is gone, which is essential all the offense. And this for a program that earned the no. 12 seed in the Pac tourney. It is one thing to be a positive, another to be delusional. No one really seems to care much about Cal basketball. I don't see donors rushing to the AD saying make a change. The ceiling probably is 10th, absent Okafor being a surprise (his films looks like he is athletic, but raw).
Expect to finsh 10 to 12. For a school that prides i

---

Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

---

or,

c. Fox retires and we bring in a young up-and-comer. (Sure, he'll make some mistakes but also raise the ceilings of games we might win.)

---

Yeah, I wasn't considering "c", just based on what scuttlebutt we're hearing. Should've prefaced it with "Assuming Fox is returning... " And then there's the reality of a new coach coming in basically after recruiting season. He would need to have some sway with transfers or late commits.

sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

---

If Knowlton is going to make another basketball hire, he needs to defer to a committee consisting of Mike Montgomery, Ben Braun, Sharif Abdur-Rahim, Kiwi, Jaylen Brown, Leon Powe, Jason Kidd, three major-and-willing donors and a dozen of us. As I am somewhat short of the eight-figures I'd like to drop on the new practice facility, I volunteer to serve on this committee without any sort of compensation, in service to my Alma Mater.

4thGenCal said:

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sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

---

Can't answer #1 but history shows poor judgement on the hoops side and hopefully he will listen to local respected coaches who understand the obstacles one faces at Cal. Credit though to retaining Wilcox, despite Oregon making 2 separate very strong offers. #2 - Knowlton has really worked hard and effectively to get the many necessary campus approvals(only at Cal) over the past 18 months and has gotten Chancellor Chryst buy in, which is absolutely required (He does have an excellent working relationship there). He is also a personable/outgoing person who thru his outward optimism, will be effective in the upcoming fund raising drive. Another issue to overcome is his reluctance to fire Fox now, for the reasons mentioned earlier, coupled with "its his guy" and Fox has effectively laid out the "unfortunate occurrences/inherited state of program etc" over the past 3 seasons. Very frustrating to put it mildly - but unless there is a mass defection, the HC will have his 4th season.

---

I thought Fox was a horrible hire and we are best moving on ASAP, but this is exactly the scensrio I feared when he was hired. As a result, I did not expect Knowlton to fire Fox, but with two years left on his contract, I really don't think we need to extend "for recruiting." At this point, I would hope anyone that signs with Cal chooses the school. Moreover, with the transfer portal, if you don't like the new coach, you can leave, as we know all too well. I don't think Fox's recruiting is better or worse with an extended contract, I just think it makes it more costly and less likely we make a change. That is how he strung it out for 9 years at Georgia winning zero NCAA games in only two attempts. He is a master excuse maker and, while not very persuasive with recruits, appears to be very persuasive with certain ADs.

Big Dog said:

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Big C said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Cal8285 said:

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stu said:

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Cal8285 said:

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KAB isn't wrong about the pros of the culture, and it certainly results in the players giving effort virtually every night, that's a good thing. You are also correct about the cons, however, and in terms of having a winning program at Cal, the cons outweigh the pros, it is a horrible recipe for a winning program. Hard to recruit, hard to keep quality players on the team in the era of transfers without a sit out year.

One minor correction, you don't only get yelled at while losing, sometimes you get yelled at while winning, too. Either way, not the approach for recruiting and keeping top talent.

The style of play isn't particularly fun to play (or watch), either, and makes the players feel like they are defying the coach if they take a quality shot too early in the clock. A player thinks, "This is good basketball, I need to take the shot, but I need to make it or coach will be pissed that I took it, and he might be pissed even if I make it," and then he's thinking too much and has a lower shooting percentage on those quality shots.

If the "middle of the Pac" is defined as being 5th through 8th best in the conference, then our ceiling is middle of the Pac, but that ceiling is the low part of the middle of the Pac.

---

1) I agree with your culture comments. I think what we're doing will harm our recruiting.

2) I also agree with your definition of "middle of the Pac". Unfortunately I don't see how we can reach that level without a significant upswing in recruiting. See 1) above.

---

If the rest of the conference continues in its mediocrity, then we can get to the "middle of the Pac" without a significant upswing in recruiting, but that doesn't make the state of the program less depressing.

We beat the team currently in 4th on their home floor. That isn't because we're all that good, but Oregon is inconsistent and often not that good. Look at their OOC results. Blown out in Portland (not home, but not that neutral) by BYU by 32(!). Loses to St. Mary's by 12 in Vegas. Loses to Houston by 29 in Vegas. Only wins by 6 at home against Riverside. Their best OOC game was a home loss to Baylor by 8.

And the middle of the Pac is all worse that the 4th place Ducks. Unfortunately, right now, middle of the Pac isn't that big a deal. If Kelly doesn't get hurt, we might have gotten to 8. We probably win at least two of the four home games against the Washingtons and the Mountain schools, and maybe more. We might have beaten Stanford at Maples, we would have had a better chance tonight against ASU (we still have a chance), and who knows, we might have pulled out the game at USC.

And earlier this season, it didn't look like UW or ASU were going to get their acts together enough to be middle of the Pac. 6th place wasn't out of the question until we went to Washington and got swept.

While I think the lower part of the middle of the Pac (i.e., 8th place, maybe 7th) is our ceiling without a significant upswing in recruiting, that is because of the current quality of the middle of the Pac. Things will need to go right, staying healthy with the guys we get, getting breaks in close games, having the bottom 8 of the Pac-12 stay mediocre to poor. But it is doable.

But 7th or 8th when the conference is down is the ceiling? That is a depressing thought.

---

I think Fox is a decent coach.. He is a terrible recruiter, and I honesty don't see the talent next year for anything close the middle of a second rate Pac conference. Shepard and Ant are gone, Kelly probably is gone, which is essential all the offense. And this for a program that earned the no. 12 seed in the Pac tourney. It is one thing to be a positive, another to be delusional. No one really seems to care much about Cal basketball. I don't see donors rushing to the AD saying make a change. The ceiling probably is 10th, absent Okafor being a surprise (his films looks like he is athletic, but raw).
Expect to finsh 10 to 12. For a school that prides i

---

Our only hope to even sniff .500 in the conference next season is some combination of the following:

a. 1-2 additional current players decide to leave and Fox is able to replace them with transfers who are better

b. 2-3 returnees make more-than-one-would-expect improvement over the off-season

While not impossible, the above scenario doesn't seem too likely.

---

or,

c. Fox retires and we bring in a young up-and-comer. (Sure, he'll make some mistakes but also raise the ceilings of games we might win.)

---

In the case of c., Marty Wilson will undoubtedly get promoted to HC.

4thGenCal said:

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sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

philbert said:

---

4thGenCal said:

---

Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

---

Can't answer #1 but history shows poor judgement on the hoops side and hopefully he will listen to local respected coaches who understand the obstacles one faces at Cal. Credit though to retaining Wilcox, despite Oregon making 2 separate very strong offers. #2 - Knowlton has really worked hard and effectively to get the many necessary campus approvals(only at Cal) over the past 18 months and has gotten Chancellor Chryst buy in, which is absolutely required (He does have an excellent working relationship there). He is also a personable/outgoing person who thru his outward optimism, will be effective in the upcoming fund raising drive. Another issue to overcome is his reluctance to fire Fox now, for the reasons mentioned earlier, coupled with "its his guy" and Fox has effectively laid out the "unfortunate occurrences/inherited state of program etc" over the past 3 seasons. Very frustrating to put it mildly - but unless there is a mass defection, the HC will have his 4th season.

---

I appreciate you sharing your perspectives and insider information. You convinced me that he is very good at the money raising and bureaucratic aspects of his job. We won't know if someone else could do those things in this era, but there is some chance that they would not be able to, so it is quite possible he will be the reason it gets built.

History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli. And somehow each recruiting class of freshmen is worse than the one before, topped by the class of 2022 that won't help at all. History also shows that no coach has had three years as bad in a row as Fox, and a 10th or worse finish is nearly guaranteed for next year. The only other coach whose tenure was pure failure is Jones, but he had some good young talent, and he might have brought in more talent. There was hope with him, even though he was poor at everything other than recruiting and should have never been hired. So I don't think the problem is history, the problem was a flawed hiring process, and unfortunately the same guy will be in charge again.

If you would indulge one more question, does Knowlton know anything about basketball? Does he realize how overmatched the basketball team is? Would he know that Cal plays at a slow tempo that is not attractive to recruits?

sluggo said:

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History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli.

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Before Campanelli we also recruited some good players:
Kuchen: Kevin Johnson, Chris Washington, Michael Pitts, Leonard Taylor, Mark McNamara, Dave Butler
Edwards: Gene Ransom, Rickie Hawthorne, Connie White, Carl Bird, Jay Young, Ray Murry, Doug True
Padgett: Phil Chenier, Ansley Truitt, John Coughran
Herrerias: Russ Critchfield, Charlie Perkins, Bob Presley, Jackie Ridgle, Charlie Johnson
I'm sure I've missed a few but you should get the idea - these aren't Fox recruits.

You'll have to ask SFCityBear about Herrerias' early years and Newell.

stu said:

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sluggo said:

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History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli.

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Before Campanelli we also recruited some good players:
Kuchen: Kevin Johnson, Chris Washington, Michael Pitts, Leonard Taylor, Mark McNamara, Dave Butler
Edwards: Gene Ransom, Rickie Hawthorne, Connie White, Carl Bird, Jay Young, Ray Murry, Doug True
Padgett: Phil Chenier, Ansley Truitt, John Coughran
Herrerias: Russ Critchfield, Charlie Perkins, Bob Presley, Jackie Ridgle, Charlie Johnson
I'm sure I've missed a few but you should get the idea - these aren't Fox recruits.

You'll have to ask SFCityBear about Herrerias' early years and Newell.

---

Winning % since Newell:
1. Newell .730
2. Bozeman .643
3. Montgomery .640
4. Martin .614
5. Braun .587
6. Campanelli .532
7. Padgett .495
8. Herrerias .490
9. Edwards .456
10. Kutchen .417
11. Fox .380
12. Jones .254

calumnus said:

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Winning % since Newell:
1. Newell .730
2. Bozeman .643 *
3. Montgomery .640
4. Braun .587
5. Campanelli .532
6. Padgett .495
7. Herrerias .490
8. Edwards .456
9. Kutchen .417
10. Fox .380
11. Jones .254

* Kidd coached, Bozeman cheated

---

FIFY

stu said:

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calumnus said:

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Winning % since Newell:
1. Newell .730
2. Bozeman .643 *
3. Montgomery .640
4. Braun .587
5. Campanelli .532
6. Padgett .495
7. Herrerias .490
8. Edwards .456
9. Kutchen .417
10. Fox .380
11. Jones .254

* Kidd coached, Bozeman cheated

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FIFY

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They were fun teams to watch. Kidd told the press Cal was the only college job he would take just before we hired Fox. Missed opportunity.

Interesting that Mark Cuban has a Cal grad as his CEO and they have Kidd as their coach,

sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

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Can't answer #1 but history shows poor judgement on the hoops side and hopefully he will listen to local respected coaches who understand the obstacles one faces at Cal. Credit though to retaining Wilcox, despite Oregon making 2 separate very strong offers. #2 - Knowlton has really worked hard and effectively to get the many necessary campus approvals(only at Cal) over the past 18 months and has gotten Chancellor Chryst buy in, which is absolutely required (He does have an excellent working relationship there). He is also a personable/outgoing person who thru his outward optimism, will be effective in the upcoming fund raising drive. Another issue to overcome is his reluctance to fire Fox now, for the reasons mentioned earlier, coupled with "its his guy" and Fox has effectively laid out the "unfortunate occurrences/inherited state of program etc" over the past 3 seasons. Very frustrating to put it mildly - but unless there is a mass defection, the HC will have his 4th season.

---

I appreciate you sharing your perspectives and insider information. You convinced me that he is very good at the money raising and bureaucratic aspects of his job. We won't know if someone else could do those things in this era, but there is some chance that they would not be able to, so it is quite possible he will be the reason it gets built.

History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli. And somehow each recruiting class of freshmen is worse than the one before, topped by the class of 2022 that won't help at all. History also shows that no coach has had three years as bad in a row as Fox, and a 10th or worse finish is nearly guaranteed for next year. The only other coach whose tenure was pure failure is Jones, but he had some good young talent, and he might have brought in more talent. There was hope with him, even though he was poor at everything other than recruiting and should have never been hired. So I don't think the problem is history, the problem was a flawed hiring process, and unfortunately the same guy will be in charge again.

If you would indulge one more question, does Knowlton know anything about basketball? Does he realize how overmatched the basketball team is? Would he know that Cal plays at a slow tempo that is not attractive to recruits?

---

I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball (He does attend several games every season) and He is tireless in his overall support of all the coaches/sports in the Department. Howver it is clear to me, that He is mostly oblivious to the shortcomings of the the current staff. He clearly knows that the recruiting has been woeful under Fox and stated such, however he believes in Fox's basketball knowledge and coaching experience and focus on improving the quality of recruits. Surprisingly he thinks that a couple of key transfers/portal etc is entirely possible to improve the team. He did say that the program has to show improvement or changes would be made. The impression was that every chance will be extended to the current HC. If he realizes how overmatched the team is - he did not acknowledge such. He mostly laid these past 3 years at a list of reasons/excuses - some fair, mostly in my opinion, part of the job responsibilities. Typically his approach is to make sure his coaches have a plan in place, are addressing specific areas of improvement and then let them have reign without his constant critiques(though he does meet weekly with the key HC's). Having a slower tempo and thus negativily impacting recruiting interest, likely would not be an assessment of his. His basketball IQ is below average for an D1 AD and unfortunately there are limited people with an athletic /coaching background who can give him important perspectives. To be balanced here, his overall passion, work ethic and ability to raise funds all while navigating the obstacles of Cal are very good.

4thGenCal said:

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I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball ... To be balanced here, his overall passion, work ethic and ability to raise funds all while navigating the obstacles of Cal are very good.

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Would he be willing to put in the work (or re-prioritize his work) to learn more about about basketball? Something like watching some recent Cal video then watching some NCAA Tournament games with a good coach at his side explaining the differences.

Thanks for the info 4thGen.

Just curious, is Jay John still around? I would think he would be a great advisor and resource for Knowlton.

BC Calfan said:

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Thanks for the info 4thGen.

Just curious, is Jay John still around? I would think he would be a great advisor and resource for Knowlton.

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Jay is around and was reassigned to cover other (and more sports) within the dept. And yes he would be a great advisor to Knowlton.

"I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball (He does attend several games every season)"

One, he should go to all home games.. he only attends several, what is that less than 5, that is not acceptable.. he should also go to some away games as well ..

maybe if he went to some games he might know more about it.

that said, all you really need to know is that if you don't have some 'star' type players you will not be able to compete at the P5 level, I hate the fact that good coaching is not enough, but reality is that you need top level recruits or your team will be mediocre.. so that means you have to have a coach that can recruit .. end of story

calumnus said:

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stu said:

---

sluggo said:

---

History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli.

---

Before Campanelli we also recruited some good players:
Kuchen: Kevin Johnson, Chris Washington, Michael Pitts, Leonard Taylor, Mark McNamara, Dave Butler
Edwards: Gene Ransom, Rickie Hawthorne, Connie White, Carl Bird, Jay Young, Ray Murry, Doug True
Padgett: Phil Chenier, Ansley Truitt, John Coughran
Herrerias: Russ Critchfield, Charlie Perkins, Bob Presley, Jackie Ridgle, Charlie Johnson
I'm sure I've missed a few but you should get the idea - these aren't Fox recruits.

You'll have to ask SFCityBear about Herrerias' early years and Newell.

---

Winning % since Newell:
1. Newell .730
2. Bozeman .643
3. Montgomery .640
4. Martin .614
5. Braun .587
6. Campanelli .532
7. Padgett .495
8. Herrerias .490
9. Edwards .456
10. Kutchen .417
11. Fox .380
12. Jones .254

---

Bozeman's official record is .357, not .643. He forfeited a lot of games, resulting in him having the worst winning percentage in Cal MBB coaching history, until Jones came along and said, "I can do worse without forfeiting."

Fox is challenging Bozeman without forfeiting, but Jones set a bar so low it will be hard to match.

Fox does seem to have a lock on the title of worst recruiter. Which tells you a lot about Jones, he was not the bottom of recruiters, but is not only below Fox's record, but below Bozeman's forfeit laden record.

I'm not sure how the recruiting problem goes away. Fox is a decent coach, at least when it comes to coaching less talented players. I'm not sure he is so great at coaching more talented players. He certainly hasn't had the opportunity to show whether he can be a decent coach of talented players while at Cal), and I think his style, both his old school personality and his X's and O's style, will keep the more talented players away, so he'll never have that chance.

Cal8285 said:

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Bozeman's official record is .357, not .643. He forfeited a lot of games, resulting in him having the worst winning percentage in Cal MBB coaching history, until Jones came along and said, "I can do worse without forfeiting."

Fox is challenging Bozeman without forfeiting, but Jones set a bar so low it will be hard to match.

Fox does seem to have a lock on the title of worst recruiter. Which tells you a lot about Jones, he was not the bottom of recruiters, but is not only below Fox's record, but below Bozeman's forfeit laden record.

I'm not sure how the recruiting problem goes away. Fox is a decent coach, at least when it comes to coaching less talented players. I'm not sure he is so great at coaching more talented players. He certainly hasn't had the opportunity to show whether he can be a decent coach of talented players while at Cal), and I think his style, both his old school personality and his X's and O's style, will keep the more talented players away, so he'll never have that chance.

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The bold comment made me laugh out loud!

Most of the items in your last paragraph - ESPECIALLY Recruiting can be addressed by replacing some of the assistants. Jones, for example - has a reputation for both recruiting and developing big men.

BeachedBear said:

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ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

---

I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

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Oakbear said:

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"I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball (He does attend several games every season)"

One, he should go to all home games.. he only attends several, what is that less than 5, that is not acceptable.. he should also go to some away games as well ..

maybe if he went to some games he might know more about it.

that said, all you really need to know is that if you don't have some 'star' type players you will not be able to compete at the P5 level, I hate the fact that good coaching is not enough, but reality is that you need top level recruits or your team will be mediocre.. so that means you have to have a coach that can recruit .. end of story

---

All true points - to clarify I should have said he goes to many games (more than half of the home games) and does go to a few away games. Its more that the majority in dept/people sorounding him are mainly not from experienced coaching/athletic backgrounds. I do think he has done well in retaining/hiring in other coaching positions. However totally believe that his limited basketball experience/knowledge, is a detriment.

BeachedBear said:

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ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

---

I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

---

I think it is very unfair to compares the career winning percentages of Gates and Legans. Gates took over a team that had won only 10 games in the previous season and turned it around, winning the conference in his second year and third years. Legans took over a team that had gone 22-12 in the previous season and the prior coach left to take a better job. The career win records of Legans and Gates do not reflect their potential.

4thGenCal said:

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sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

---

sluggo said:

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4thGenCal said:

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Just back from the Campolindo v Riordon Semi's NorCal open division and shaking my head that this staff could not close Aiden Mathany, despite his closeness with Bennet's son Cade on his team. Mathany is going to be an excellent point guard in college and just dominated a very good Riordon team with a series of skills - change of tempo dribbling past defender's, penetration to the rim, drive and dish and a very smooth outside touch - plus perfect at the line. While He needs 10-12 lbs of muscle for the college level, his skill set and court vision is impressive. This staff is simply a very poor recruiting staff and other than Francis in my opinion, lack comfortable social skills. Combine that with a offensive style that is not what the better players/athletes enjoy playing - it becomes a tough obstacle to convince top players to come to Cal.

---

As a big hoops donor, I hope you let Knowlton know what you're thinking.

---

Pressure is mounting on Knowlton - but He believes the state of the program inherited,Pandemic/City of Berkeley brought extreme hardship, additionally Kelly being out, no practice facility, and stringent admission standards are legitimate reasons for the non- performance. Very frustrating as those excuses work for two seasons, not three and now near certainty of four seasons. While stubborn for sure, He will see the light,albeit far too slow. To Knowlton's credit he will be the reason the practice facilty gets built (will serve both hoops programs and improve other needed areas).

---

Two questions:
1. Is there any reason to think the hiring process would be better this time? Fox was an awful, only at Cal hire, and only someone with horrendous judgment would hire him, not to mention the stuff where he talked about the search firm helping him was awkward.
2. Knowlton seems to have a lifetime contract, so sure the practice facility may be built under him. But if he was replaced tomorrow, why would his replacement not be able to get it built? Why will he be "the reason" rather than just the caretaker?

---

Can't answer #1 but history shows poor judgement on the hoops side and hopefully he will listen to local respected coaches who understand the obstacles one faces at Cal. Credit though to retaining Wilcox, despite Oregon making 2 separate very strong offers. #2 - Knowlton has really worked hard and effectively to get the many necessary campus approvals(only at Cal) over the past 18 months and has gotten Chancellor Chryst buy in, which is absolutely required (He does have an excellent working relationship there). He is also a personable/outgoing person who thru his outward optimism, will be effective in the upcoming fund raising drive. Another issue to overcome is his reluctance to fire Fox now, for the reasons mentioned earlier, coupled with "its his guy" and Fox has effectively laid out the "unfortunate occurrences/inherited state of program etc" over the past 3 seasons. Very frustrating to put it mildly - but unless there is a mass defection, the HC will have his 4th season.

---

I appreciate you sharing your perspectives and insider information. You convinced me that he is very good at the money raising and bureaucratic aspects of his job. We won't know if someone else could do those things in this era, but there is some chance that they would not be able to, so it is quite possible he will be the reason it gets built.

History shows that Fox is the only coach who could not recruit at middle of the conference level going back to Campanelli. And somehow each recruiting class of freshmen is worse than the one before, topped by the class of 2022 that won't help at all. History also shows that no coach has had three years as bad in a row as Fox, and a 10th or worse finish is nearly guaranteed for next year. The only other coach whose tenure was pure failure is Jones, but he had some good young talent, and he might have brought in more talent. There was hope with him, even though he was poor at everything other than recruiting and should have never been hired. So I don't think the problem is history, the problem was a flawed hiring process, and unfortunately the same guy will be in charge again.

If you would indulge one more question, does Knowlton know anything about basketball? Does he realize how overmatched the basketball team is? Would he know that Cal plays at a slow tempo that is not attractive to recruits?

---

I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball (He does attend several games every season) and He is tireless in his overall support of all the coaches/sports in the Department. Howver it is clear to me, that He is mostly oblivious to the shortcomings of the the current staff. He clearly knows that the recruiting has been woeful under Fox and stated such, however he believes in Fox's basketball knowledge and coaching experience and focus on improving the quality of recruits. Surprisingly he thinks that a couple of key transfers/portal etc is entirely possible to improve the team. He did say that the program has to show improvement or changes would be made. The impression was that every chance will be extended to the current HC. If he realizes how overmatched the team is - he did not acknowledge such. He mostly laid these past 3 years at a list of reasons/excuses - some fair, mostly in my opinion, part of the job responsibilities. Typically his approach is to make sure his coaches have a plan in place, are addressing specific areas of improvement and then let them have reign without his constant critiques(though he does meet weekly with the key HC's). Having a slower tempo and thus negativily impacting recruiting interest, likely would not be an assessment of his. His basketball IQ is below average for an D1 AD and unfortunately there are limited people with an athletic /coaching background who can give him important perspectives. To be balanced here, his overall passion, work ethic and ability to raise funds all while navigating the obstacles of Cal are very good.

---

To follow up here, it would be interesting to ask Knowlton whether he realizes that we have no open scholarship slots (HS or transfer) for next season assuming the current recruits stay committed, and how he expects Fox to improve the quality of recruits knowing that. Is Knowlton expecting Fox to drive some current players off to get better recruits for next year? Or is this for next season and Knowlton is already assuming that Fox will be here for year 5?

I'm just wondering if it is too much to ask that Knowlton understand that the roster for next year is already set barring players willingly leaving the team or being pushed out, and as such, it should not be hard to look at the talent that is leaving relative to the talent coming in, and have a good idea of what next year will look like.

socaliganbear said:

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What a tragic state of affairs...

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It is so sad. There are clearly worse tragedies in the world than incompetent outsiders getting paid big bucks to destroy Cal athletics, but Cal athletics was my daily escape, a source of hope and joy. I guess I do still have a glimmer of hope for football….

How many signatures are needed on a petition to get rid of Fox ... NOW? Just wondering ...

Dgoldnbaer said:

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How many signatures are needed on a petition to get rid of Fox ... NOW? Just wondering ...

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One, if it's Knowlton's. But it will have to wait to see if we win the Pac-12 Tournament.

mdbear said:

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BeachedBear said:

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ncbears said:

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Meanwhile, Portland - which has not had a winning season since 2014-2015 (and that was 17-16) and hasn't had double digit wins since 2017-2018 is 18-13.
Perhaps Susan's son isn't a bad coach...

---

I think FOX would do great at a place like Portland. Legans doesn't have the same body of evidence (5 yrs vs 17 yrs), so his upside might be higher. Comparing the two during their first five years (5th year not quite complete) is interesting:

Legans: 92-63 (.597). CBI First round, NCAA First round (pandemic strangeness - no 2020 postseason )

Fox: 123-43 (.741). NCAA round 2 (twice), NCAA First round, CBI First round (twice). Trending downward

Gates (only 3 years): 4938 (.563), NCAA First round.

There is lots more to the comparison than simply record and postseason. But Georgia snatched up a hot mid-major coach, who did not perform as well at the P5 level (for lotsa reasons we have also learned). No evidence for Legans that he would NOT succeed - so why not give him a chance? I think the mistake that Georgia made was not in hiring Fox, but keeping him on for 9 years. His first three year as Georgia 50-46 (.520) / 19-29 (.396) in conference and NCAA first round. He made the NCAA one more time and NIT thrice. Overall at Georgia after 9 years .551. That's better than what he has done at Cal 3456 (.378) in 3 years.

So I just don't buy that Knowlton (whether truth or rumor) can think that the trend will all of a sudden be different with FOX after 17 years.

However, I think there are much better candidates than Legans or DeCuire or even Gates out there. Ironically, I spent a few days last week at a leadership conference talking about (among other issues) talent. The mantra is Always Be Recruiting. Regardless how well you think your staff is - you should always be looking to improve and find talent.

There is no indication that Knowlton is doing so. But in the case of head coaches (and many other positions) - making a public display of a replacement search is not going to happen. That's probably up to us.

---

I think it is very unfair to compares the career winning percentages of Gates and Legans. Gates took over a team that had won only 10 games in the previous season and turned it around, winning the conference in his second year and third years. Legans took over a team that had gone 22-12 in the previous season and the prior coach left to take a better job. The career win records of Legans and Gates do not reflect their potential.

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Its a comparison - not a judgment or decision. Fairness has nothing to do with it. I put out some data points and in response to a post regarding Legans and added Gates since others seem high on him. I had no intention of claiming Legans is a superior candidate to Gates - not sure where that came from.

4thGenCal said:

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Oakbear said:

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"I think Knowlton knows very little about basketball (He does attend several games every season)"

One, he should go to all home games.. he only attends several, what is that less than 5, that is not acceptable.. he should also go to some away games as well ..

maybe if he went to some games he might know more about it.

that said, all you really need to know is that if you don't have some 'star' type players you will not be able to compete at the P5 level, I hate the fact that good coaching is not enough, but reality is that you need top level recruits or your team will be mediocre.. so that means you have to have a coach that can recruit .. end of story

---

All true points - to clarify I should have said he goes to many games (more than half of the home games) and does go to a few away games. Its more that the majority in dept/people sorounding him are mainly not from experienced coaching/athletic backgrounds. I do think he has done well in retaining/hiring in other coaching positions. However totally believe that his limited basketball experience/knowledge, is a detriment.

---

4thGen, we have, I believe, eleven scholarship players scheduled to return next season. If you had to pick a number, how many do you expect will actually return to the team this fall (regardless of reasons to stay or leave)?

9