HKBear97! said:

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calumnus said:

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oski003 said:

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calumnus said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Is no one going to mention that Brown had COVID in October 2021 (and for all we know may have had it before)? He also could have had a vax but not a second shot/boost.

I know MANY young people who had covid and/or initial vaxs that don't want to be boosted. And statistically speaking, the benefits of the vax to a young person (particularly one with recent covid) is very low.

I would also point out that the primary side effect of the vax a young person would be concerned about - myocarditis - would be a particular concern for a basketball player.

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The chances of getting myocarditis from the virus are many times higher than from the vaccine.

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Not true.

Can you rank the following from highest to lowest on chances of getting serious myocarditis.

Jaylen Brown
1) does not get vaccinated at all.
2) gets Moderna vax primaries and booster 6 months later.
3) gets Pfizer vax primaries and booster 6 months later.
4) gets JnJ vax primaries and Moderna booster 6 months later.
5) gets JnJ vax primaries and Pfizer booster 6 months later.
6) gets Pfizer primaries only.
7) gets Moderna primaries only.
8) gets JnJ primaries only.

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The US has had 1 million deaths. Canada has had only 38 thousand. Canada's protocols worked. Other than a trucker protest (with a lot of Americans talking about their 1st Amendment rights) they cooperated and followed strict lockdowns, masking and are now nearly all vaccinated. The sometimes violently anti-science, anti public health crowd in the US, fed by disinformation from the internet, certain "news" outlets and many politicians undermined and continues to undermine our efforts and has cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

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Let's not forget Canada is significantly less dense than America, the population is less obese and they have universal healthcare. Those are all extremely significant contributing factors to the discrepancy.

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The US states with the highest COVID deaths per capita:
1. Mississippi
2. Arizona
3. Oklahoma
4. Alabama
5. Tennessee
6. West Virginia
7. New Jersey
8. Arkansas
9. Louisiana
10. Michigan

Some of the most rural states. Maybe the obesity and lack of health insurance (states that sabotaged the Affordable Care Act) applies. However, 9 out of 10 are also states that went for Trump at least once and all have had strong resistance to lockdown, masking and vaccination.

The fewest deaths per capita in order were: Hawaii, Vermont, PR, Utah, Maine, Washington, Alaska, Oregon, New Hampshire, DC, Colorado, Nebraska, North Carolina, Minnesota, California.

DC has the highest population density of any state or territory. 14 of 16 voted for Biden.

The protection that the mRNA vaccines provides against infection from COVID begins to wane after a few months, but it is believed that their protection against severe disease, hospitalization and death continues.

AunBear89 said:

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And, as we all know, in the land of vaxx denial: correlation IS causation.

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Also don't forget: one anecdote is worth more than a million data points.

oski003 said:

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HearstMining said:

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AunBear89 said:

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And, as we all know, in the land of vaxx denial: correlation IS causation.

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Also don't forget: one anecdote is worth more than a million data points.

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There are only so many professional American athletes, so this is notable.

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Tell me you don't understand math and statistics without telling me.

Either way, as long as someone dies, BearFarce is happy.

calumnus said:

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BearForce2 said:

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calumnus said:

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BearForce2 said:

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Big C said:

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The protection that the mRNA vaccines provides against infection from COVID begins to wane after a few months, but it is believed that their protection against severe disease, hospitalization and death continues.

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Yes, vaccines offer protection but if you have 4 or more comorbidities, you are most likely physically suffering and seeing a lot of hospital time.

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True, but if not vaccinated, someone with "4 or more co-morbidities" who catches COVID, likely dies.

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True and most likely, Jaylen Brown doesn't have 4 or more comorbidities.

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But he could spread it to someone who does.

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Anyone can spread the virus.

AunBear89 said:

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Then we shouldn't do anything at all. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

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Just this week someone actually tried to tell me "masks do nothing, viruses can still get through." I asked him why doctors wear them, why do you wear them in your job? (He owns a business in military construction). He admitted that some of the virus might get trapped, or might not get projected as far, maybe 50% just not 100% I told him that is the whole point. Reducing the rate of transmission to less than 1. Japan pretty much only used masks. South Korea did great with widespread random rapid testing and masks.

Yes, you can still get the virus and spread the virus if you are vaccinated, but your chances of getting it are lower and if you get it your viral load is MUCH lower, so your chances of spreading it are lower.

That is why Canada, even though nearly fully vaccinated, requires people coming into the country to be vaccinated. Again, where we have had 1 million die, they have had only 38,000 people die, and it is not because there are no cities in Canada, no one in Canada is old, fat, has diabetes, has cancer, is immuno-compromised and are all young healthy basketball players. It is because they followed sensible rules laid out by public health officials such as lock downs, social distancing and mask wearing until the vaccine was available and then took the vaccine when it became available.

Tatum spin move on Flat Earth Man at buzzer! Celtics up 1-0.

calumnus said:

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AunBear89 said:

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Then we shouldn't do anything at all. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

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Just this week someone actually tried to tell me "masks do nothing, viruses can still get through." I asked him why doctors wear them, why do you wear them in your job? (He owns a business in military construction). He admitted that some of the virus might get trapped, or might not get projected as far, maybe 50% just not 100% I told him that is the whole point. Reducing the rate of transmission to less than 1. Japan pretty much only used masks. South Korea did great with widespread random rapid testing and masks.

Yes, you can still get the virus and spread the virus if you are vaccinated, but your chances of getting it are lower and if you get it your viral load is MUCH lower, so your chances of spreading it are lower.

That is why Canada, even though nearly fully vaccinated, requires people coming into the country to be vaccinated. Again, where we have had 1 million die, they have had only 38,000 people die, and it is not because there are no cities in Canada, no one in Canada is old, fat, has diabetes, has cancer, is immuno-compromised and are all young healthy basketball players. It is because they followed sensible rules laid out by public health officials such as lock downs, social distancing and mask wearing until the vaccine was available and then took the vaccine when it became available.

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The US has 9 times as many people as Canada. So while your numbers are very impressive, and you have included that Canada has cities, you should either divide the US number by 9 or multiply the Canadian number by 9, unless you don't think comparisons should include differences in population. I am going to do the latter. Canada has had the equivalent of 340k covid deaths. Certainly better than the US, only a third as many as the US, but not 1/27 of the US as in your comparison.

Second, we don't know why Canada did better. There are lots of differences between the countries. I believe the factors you brought up are part of it, but I don't really know. One can't know cause without an experiment, and no such experiment is possible.

Third, going backwards to the start of the pandemic is pointless when discussing current policy. Right now there are about 10k hospitalized in the US for covid and about 5k hospitalized in Canada. So right now covid is significantly worse in Canada. Canadian grandstanding over athlete vaccinations just makes them look silly in 2022 and for as long as they keep such a ridiculous policy.

(BTW, California, which is about the same size as Canada, has fewer than 1000 covid hospitalizations. What is wrong with Canada?)

calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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AunBear89 said:

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Then we shouldn't do anything at all. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

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Just this week someone actually tried to tell me "masks do nothing, viruses can still get through." I asked him why doctors wear them, why do you wear them in your job? (He owns a business in military construction). He admitted that some of the virus might get trapped, or might not get projected as far, maybe 50% just not 100% I told him that is the whole point. Reducing the rate of transmission to less than 1. Japan pretty much only used masks. South Korea did great with widespread random rapid testing and masks.

Yes, you can still get the virus and spread the virus if you are vaccinated, but your chances of getting it are lower and if you get it your viral load is MUCH lower, so your chances of spreading it are lower.

That is why Canada, even though nearly fully vaccinated, requires people coming into the country to be vaccinated. Again, where we have had 1 million die, they have had only 38,000 people die, and it is not because there are no cities in Canada, no one in Canada is old, fat, has diabetes, has cancer, is immuno-compromised and are all young healthy basketball players. It is because they followed sensible rules laid out by public health officials such as lock downs, social distancing and mask wearing until the vaccine was available and then took the vaccine when it became available.

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The US has 9 times as many people as Canada. So while your numbers are very impressive, and you have included that Canada has cities, you should either divide the US number by 9 or multiply the Canadian number by 9, unless you don't think comparisons should include differences in population. I am going to do the latter. Canada has had the equivalent of 340k covid deaths. Certainly better than the US, only a third as many as the US, but not 1/27 of the US as in your comparison.

Second, we don't know why Canada did better. There are lots of differences between the countries. I believe the factors you brought up are part of it, but I don't really know. One can't know cause without an experiment, and no such experiment is possible.

Third, going backwards to the start of the pandemic is pointless when discussing current policy. Right now there are about 10k hospitalized in the US for covid and about 5k hospitalized in Canada. So right now covid is significantly worse in Canada. Canadian grandstanding over athlete vaccinations just makes them look silly in 2022 and for as long as they keep such a ridiculous policy.

(BTW, California, which is about the same size as Canada, has fewer than 1000 covid hospitalizations. What is wrong with Canada?)

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Canada's (and many other countries') COVID rules for admission apply to everyone. It is not "grandstanding over athlete vaccinations" it is rules for travelers to Canada period, with no special exemption for athletes or celebrities. We saw the same in Australia recently. I am going to Korea in two weeks, that is their rule too. It is mostly Americans who have greatly politicized opposition to public health rules that project other countries' rules as "political."

Canada and the US (and most industrialized countries had roughly the same death rate from COVID, they just had far fewer cases per capita. South Korea (60 million people) has had 21,000 deaths. Again, the chances of dying from COVID if you get it has been similar throughout the industrialized world. Some countries have just been much better at containing virus outbreaks and stopping community transmission. The US was one of the worst, mostly due to active political opposition to public health protocols.

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Viewing this strictly through a political lense is simplistic, binary and, frankly, a little disappointing coming from a Cal grad. Looking at the results within the US between states with various degrees of restrictions makes it hard to say with any certainty what worked best and where underlying health conditions, living conditions, socioeconomic factors, healthcare, etc. played a role. This has been such a complex phenomenon where outcomes cannot be distilled down to one or two factors.

calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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AunBear89 said:

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Then we shouldn't do anything at all. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

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Just this week someone actually tried to tell me "masks do nothing, viruses can still get through." I asked him why doctors wear them, why do you wear them in your job? (He owns a business in military construction). He admitted that some of the virus might get trapped, or might not get projected as far, maybe 50% just not 100% I told him that is the whole point. Reducing the rate of transmission to less than 1. Japan pretty much only used masks. South Korea did great with widespread random rapid testing and masks.

Yes, you can still get the virus and spread the virus if you are vaccinated, but your chances of getting it are lower and if you get it your viral load is MUCH lower, so your chances of spreading it are lower.

That is why Canada, even though nearly fully vaccinated, requires people coming into the country to be vaccinated. Again, where we have had 1 million die, they have had only 38,000 people die, and it is not because there are no cities in Canada, no one in Canada is old, fat, has diabetes, has cancer, is immuno-compromised and are all young healthy basketball players. It is because they followed sensible rules laid out by public health officials such as lock downs, social distancing and mask wearing until the vaccine was available and then took the vaccine when it became available.

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The US has 9 times as many people as Canada. So while your numbers are very impressive, and you have included that Canada has cities, you should either divide the US number by 9 or multiply the Canadian number by 9, unless you don't think comparisons should include differences in population. I am going to do the latter. Canada has had the equivalent of 340k covid deaths. Certainly better than the US, only a third as many as the US, but not 1/27 of the US as in your comparison.

Second, we don't know why Canada did better. There are lots of differences between the countries. I believe the factors you brought up are part of it, but I don't really know. One can't know cause without an experiment, and no such experiment is possible.

Third, going backwards to the start of the pandemic is pointless when discussing current policy. Right now there are about 10k hospitalized in the US for covid and about 5k hospitalized in Canada. So right now covid is significantly worse in Canada. Canadian grandstanding over athlete vaccinations just makes them look silly in 2022 and for as long as they keep such a ridiculous policy.

(BTW, California, which is about the same size as Canada, has fewer than 1000 covid hospitalizations. What is wrong with Canada?)

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Canada's (and many other countries') COVID rules for admission apply to everyone. It is not "grandstanding over athlete vaccinations" it is rules for travelers to Canada period, with no special exemption for athletes or celebrities. We saw the same in Australia recently. I am going to Korea in two weeks, that is their rule too. It is mostly Americans who have greatly politicized opposition to public health rules that project other countries' rules as "political."

Canada and the US (and most industrialized countries had roughly the same death rate from COVID, they just had far fewer cases per capita. South Korea (60 million people) has had 21,000 deaths. Again, the chances of dying from COVID if you get it has been similar throughout the industrialized world. Some countries have just been much better at containing virus outbreaks and stopping community transmission. The US was one of the worst, mostly due to active political opposition to public health protocols.

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What gets lesser notice in all of this posturing about Canada's vaccine requirement is that for non-US citizens/residents who arrive by air to the US, proof of COVID-19 vaccination is also required. So the US basically has the same requirement as Canada!

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/proof-of-vaccination.html

BearForce2 said:

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calumnus said:

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AunBear89 said:

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Then we shouldn't do anything at all. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.

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Just this week someone actually tried to tell me "masks do nothing, viruses can still get through." I asked him why doctors wear them, why do you wear them in your job? (He owns a business in military construction). He admitted that some of the virus might get trapped, or might not get projected as far, maybe 50% just not 100% I told him that is the whole point. Reducing the rate of transmission to less than 1. Japan pretty much only used masks. South Korea did great with widespread random rapid testing and masks.

Yes, you can still get the virus and spread the virus if you are vaccinated, but your chances of getting it are lower and if you get it your viral load is MUCH lower, so your chances of spreading it are lower.

That is why Canada, even though nearly fully vaccinated, requires people coming into the country to be vaccinated. Again, where we have had 1 million die, they have had only 38,000 people die, and it is not because there are no cities in Canada, no one in Canada is old, fat, has diabetes, has cancer, is immuno-compromised and are all young healthy basketball players. It is because they followed sensible rules laid out by public health officials such as lock downs, social distancing and mask wearing until the vaccine was available and then took the vaccine when it became available.

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Japan 82% vaccinated

Japan recently experienced its worst death rate this year, doubling its all-time record.



South Korea 88% vaccinated

Once a shining beacon on how to deal with COVID-19, today South Korea stands at the foot of a monster death spike. It accomplished this with 86.95% of the population fully vaccinated.



Canada 86% vaccinated

Canada did not beat its record death rate, but the latest wave started a month earlier and has thus far left a similar number of victims than last year.



Source: John Hopkins University CSSE Covid-19 Data

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The best strategy was always to keep community transmission low through lock downs, masking, testing and quarantining until a vaccine could be developed and those who want it have received it. That accomplished, those countries are opening up and their deaths are exceeding their previous "highs" which are still many times below ours. As your graphs show, each time in the past they were able to use the proven measures to stamp out the infections. Japan's previous spike was during the Olympics and they have cited the "impoliteness" with regard to mask wearing of people from "certain countries" as the reason they are reluctant to open further.

Total COVID deaths:
New Zealand 1,295
Taiwan 4,403
Australia 9.146
Japan 30,910
S. Korea 35,339
Canada 41,588
United States 1,011,543