Pac-12
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Last: 2 yr ago by stu
Laundry.
Once they're gone, Furd, Oregon, & the Arizona's are leaving too. end of the conference (at least its relevancy).
Did you hear Cal's relevance in "college" sports just die?
Look at the bright side - we won't finish 12th!
My thought is that this will destroy the tournament and then I'll be completely done with college sports. Without it, college basketball is just a semi pro league without history or personality.
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
Where? to the Big 10? Unclear that they would want them but I guess they could realign into 4 divisions.eastcoastcal said:
Once they're gone, Furd, Oregon, & the Arizona's are leaving too. end of the conference (at least its relevancy).
good question. oregon's a national power. i think they'd easily be able to find an upgrade over the pac. maybe even go the ND route.socaltownie said:Where? to the Big 10? Unclear that they would want them but I guess they could realign into 4 divisions.eastcoastcal said:
Once they're gone, Furd, Oregon, & the Arizona's are leaving too. end of the conference (at least its relevancy).
arizonas are close to a lot of the good schools in the big 12.
furd is interesting. the thing is they run a very successful athletics department but aren't necessarily an easy fit anywhere. was actually wondering if cal and furd could package themselves.
and this isnt a joke, i genuinely think we should explore the ivies IF we can't find a strong conference to join. i think it would be pathetic if we became a mountain west type of team. at that point just boost the academics.
I actually think that divorcing sports from the university is just a good idea at this point. Maybe the sports teams pay the schools for use of names and venues, but really- football and basketball are pretty much their own entities at most of the big name school anyway, right?
I wondered about this, too. Would the Board of Regents have to approve this move for UCLA?socaltownie said:
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
Interesting that the idea of joining the Ivy League has cropped up again. Way back in the 1960's, with the PCC still on shaky footing with the recruiting scandals of the 1950s still fresh in their minds, and the sub-par play of their football teams, both Cal and Stanford were toying with the idea of joining the Ivy League. It seemed a natural fit to many people. Cal had its last heyday in football with Waldorf's teams of the late 1940s and early 1950s, and its last heyday in basketball with Pete Newell's teams of the late 1950s and 1960. Recruiting was going to get more difficult due to stricter academic requirements. The big drawback would have been the increased coast to coast travel, in both time away from studies and the cost. The idea never got much traction.
I think it might be something worth considering, if they would have us. It would be a more attractive package if Stanford were to join us, as they have more natural rivalries with the all or mostly all private schools, and Cal being a public school. The Cal Crew has natural rivalries with the Ivy League schools, but do we have any other rivalries with them, except academic? I'm not sure they would accept us, due to our puny by comparison fees vs their tuition.
Cal's prospects are not bright. For one thing, Cal used to attract a lot of home-grown Northern California high school athletes. I don't know how it is for football, but in basketball, Northern California and the Bay Area in particular just is not producing the stars now. Back in the 1950s, when the main high school All-American team consisted of 5 players, and San Francisco itself had two of them, Fred LaCour and Tom Meschery. There was only one national high school all-American all-star game, in Louisville, and LaCour was the first west coast player ever invited to that game. He was named the MVP of that game. The last home grown basketball high school All-american from the Bay Area, was Ivan Rabb in 2015. Before that, it was Aaron Gordon. Today the best high school basketball players in Northern California are all from out of state, attending Prolific Prep, a basketball academy in Napa. And if you look at the All-Metro basketball teams, very few if any players end up committing to the best college basketball programs, except the kids from Prolific Prep. Mark Fox need not spend his NorCal recruiting time anywhere but Napa, and not waste much time at Bishop O'Dowd. or anywhere else in NorCal, unless there is a hot prospect. Roberson and Bowser may become decent players, but they are not Ivan Rabb, ready to contribute at a high level on day one of college.
San Francisco produced great athletes in all the major sports in the last century, many who played in the MLB, the NFL, and the NBA. Today they produce no one of that caliber. This is less true for the greater Bay Area, but the trend is still a downward one. I follow basketball more than football or baseball, but who has McClymonds or Berkeley or Richmond produced lately, or any of the East Bay schools?
One possible positive about Cal remaining in the PAC12 might be that if USC and UCLA move to the Big Ten, is that Cal might be able to pick up a few more good recruits from the Southern California area, which is where nearly all of the California high school football and basketball talent resides these days. I think that the SoCal recruits for whom staying close to home was a factor in them choosing to play for USC and UCLA, might give Cal a fresh look if there was no other big name school nearby.
One question I have is if we joined the Ivy league, what would happen to the minor sports? Would they also be competing primarily with Ivy League schools? Would their their travel budgets increase as well?
In the end, I think I agree that college football and basketball at least may become a thing of the past, with the pay for play soon to be here. With that in mind, it might be well to position ourselves and consider joining the Ivy League. Then our student-athletes can participate and compete in sports and rivalries for the sake of sport and the competition as a learning experience and an expression of their athletic talents, instead of playing professionally in college. There will be time for that when they join a pro league.
I think it might be something worth considering, if they would have us. It would be a more attractive package if Stanford were to join us, as they have more natural rivalries with the all or mostly all private schools, and Cal being a public school. The Cal Crew has natural rivalries with the Ivy League schools, but do we have any other rivalries with them, except academic? I'm not sure they would accept us, due to our puny by comparison fees vs their tuition.
Cal's prospects are not bright. For one thing, Cal used to attract a lot of home-grown Northern California high school athletes. I don't know how it is for football, but in basketball, Northern California and the Bay Area in particular just is not producing the stars now. Back in the 1950s, when the main high school All-American team consisted of 5 players, and San Francisco itself had two of them, Fred LaCour and Tom Meschery. There was only one national high school all-American all-star game, in Louisville, and LaCour was the first west coast player ever invited to that game. He was named the MVP of that game. The last home grown basketball high school All-american from the Bay Area, was Ivan Rabb in 2015. Before that, it was Aaron Gordon. Today the best high school basketball players in Northern California are all from out of state, attending Prolific Prep, a basketball academy in Napa. And if you look at the All-Metro basketball teams, very few if any players end up committing to the best college basketball programs, except the kids from Prolific Prep. Mark Fox need not spend his NorCal recruiting time anywhere but Napa, and not waste much time at Bishop O'Dowd. or anywhere else in NorCal, unless there is a hot prospect. Roberson and Bowser may become decent players, but they are not Ivan Rabb, ready to contribute at a high level on day one of college.
San Francisco produced great athletes in all the major sports in the last century, many who played in the MLB, the NFL, and the NBA. Today they produce no one of that caliber. This is less true for the greater Bay Area, but the trend is still a downward one. I follow basketball more than football or baseball, but who has McClymonds or Berkeley or Richmond produced lately, or any of the East Bay schools?
One possible positive about Cal remaining in the PAC12 might be that if USC and UCLA move to the Big Ten, is that Cal might be able to pick up a few more good recruits from the Southern California area, which is where nearly all of the California high school football and basketball talent resides these days. I think that the SoCal recruits for whom staying close to home was a factor in them choosing to play for USC and UCLA, might give Cal a fresh look if there was no other big name school nearby.
One question I have is if we joined the Ivy league, what would happen to the minor sports? Would they also be competing primarily with Ivy League schools? Would their their travel budgets increase as well?
In the end, I think I agree that college football and basketball at least may become a thing of the past, with the pay for play soon to be here. With that in mind, it might be well to position ourselves and consider joining the Ivy League. Then our student-athletes can participate and compete in sports and rivalries for the sake of sport and the competition as a learning experience and an expression of their athletic talents, instead of playing professionally in college. There will be time for that when they join a pro league.
SFCityBear
We are working through the grieving stages at lightening pace. I'm proud of us.
I am not sure a Regents decision but I am guessing OoP. As others have said over on the football board - the challenge is the stadium debt (and then Cal's compliance with Title IX because of the required football revenue).HearstMining said:I wondered about this, too. Would the Board of Regents have to approve this move for UCLA?socaltownie said:
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
The Ivy League doesn't allow athletic scholarships, only need based. Harvard offers 42 varsity teams. I actually think it's a great system, but doubt they'd want to expand beyond current lineup. Travel costs would be ridiculous and the Ivy League has long been the Ivy League. https://college.harvard.edu/life-at-harvard/athletics
Furd? Going to the Ivy League? They won't even allow NIL collectives, or allow players to become employees, which btw is the real structural change coming at a NLRB near you.eastcoastcal said:
Once they're gone, Furd, Oregon, & the Arizona's are leaving too. end of the conference (at least its relevancy).
they could go independent. either way why would they stay in the pac? all of their california rivals are gone. I sincerely would be shocked if they don't go B10 or indepdendent.wifeisafurd said:Furd? Going to the Ivy League? They won't even allow NIL collectives, or allow players to become employees, which btw is the real structural change coming at a NLRB near you.eastcoastcal said:
Once they're gone, Furd, Oregon, & the Arizona's are leaving too. end of the conference (at least its relevancy).
Cal's relevance in college football and basketball died many years ago.parentswerebears said:
Did you hear Cal's relevance in "college" sports just die?
Golden One said:Cal's relevance in college football and basketball died many years ago.parentswerebears said:
Did you hear Cal's relevance in "college" sports just die?
It was unconscious and on life support, with a heartbeat but brain dead. We love it too much to pull the plug, but we need a miracle.
socaltownie said:I am not sure a Regents decision but I am guessing OoP. As others have said over on the football board - the challenge is the stadium debt (and then Cal's compliance with Title IX because of the required football revenue).HearstMining said:I wondered about this, too. Would the Board of Regents have to approve this move for UCLA?socaltownie said:
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
Can someone explain this challenge? Challenge to what? Doesn't the stadium debt kind of force the admin to actually care about football? If it weren't for this I feel the admin would be perfectly fine letting football die out.
fat_slice said:socaltownie said:I am not sure a Regents decision but I am guessing OoP. As others have said over on the football board - the challenge is the stadium debt (and then Cal's compliance with Title IX because of the required football revenue).HearstMining said:I wondered about this, too. Would the Board of Regents have to approve this move for UCLA?socaltownie said:
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
Can someone explain this challenge? Challenge to what? Doesn't the stadium debt kind of force the admin to actually care about football? If it weren't for this I feel the admin would be perfectly fine letting football die out.
Christ took the stadium debt off of Knowlton's books. So now, football revenues do not pay down the debt. The university owes the money regardless.
Football is still a money maker for the AD, so they will not "kill" it. However, it may die a slow death under their watch.
socaltownie said:
I will believe that the Office of the President will approve this when hell freezes over.
I'm with YOU!!
Greed killed the golden goose.
parentswerebears said:
I actually think that divorcing sports from the university is just a good idea at this point. Maybe the sports teams pay the schools for use of names and venues, but really- football and basketball are pretty much their own entities at most of the big name school anyway, right?
Yes.
Or, just do a west coast Ivy model and compete with them that way. We can still have plenty of fun. Don't need or want to play the SEC model game. Cal is better than that!
SFCityBear said:
Interesting that the idea of joining the Ivy League has cropped up again. Way back in the 1960's, with the PCC still on shaky footing with the recruiting scandals of the 1950s still fresh in their minds, and the sub-par play of their football teams, both Cal and Stanford were toying with the idea of joining the Ivy League. It seemed a natural fit to many people. Cal had its last heyday in football with Waldorf's teams of the late 1940s and early 1950s, and its last heyday in basketball with Pete Newell's teams of the late 1950s and 1960. Recruiting was going to get more difficult due to stricter academic requirements. The big drawback would have been the increased coast to coast travel, in both time away from studies and the cost. The idea never got much traction.
I think it might be something worth considering, if they would have us. It would be a more attractive package if Stanford were to join us, as they have more natural rivalries with the all or mostly all private schools, and Cal being a public school. The Cal Crew has natural rivalries with the Ivy League schools, but do we have any other rivalries with them, except academic? I'm not sure they would accept us, due to our puny by comparison fees vs their tuition.
I actually like the idea a lot. We. Have discussed it before.
Who are the top academic institutions this side of the Rockies which also have top sports programs?
Form an Ivy West League.
concordtom said:SFCityBear said:
Interesting that the idea of joining the Ivy League has cropped up again. ........
I actually like the idea a lot. We. Have discussed it before.
Who are the top academic institutions this side of the Rockies which also have top sports programs?
Form an Ivy West League.
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
I'd start with Cal and Stanford.RJABear said:
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
Then the other UC campuses (except of course UCLA and UCSF).
Northwestern would fit (except their coast is Lake Michigan).
Rice would fit (except their coast is the Gulf).
I don't think the others you mentioned (or Whitman) are big enough for football.
stu said:I'd start with Cal and Stanford.RJABear said:
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
Then the other UC campuses (except of course UCLA and UCSF).
Northwestern would fit (except their coast is Lake Michigan).
Rice would fit (except their coast is the Gulf).
I don't think the others you mentioned (or Whitman) are big enough for football.
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Big C said:stu said:I'd start with Cal and Stanford.RJABear said:
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
Then the other UC campuses (except of course UCLA and UCSF).
Northwestern would fit (except their coast is Lake Michigan).
Rice would fit (except their coast is the Gulf).
I don't think the others you mentioned (or Whitman) are big enough for football.
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
Yep, the economics would force significant downsizing. But I've never bought into the concept that students should have some God-given right to play their sport at the NCAA level. I fully support Title IX, but unless your program is Stanford, you have to live within your economic means. Somehow, UC Davis and others do it, so Cal could, too. For the sports that don't make the cut, club-level teams may be a great option. My sons both played club-level soccer (not at Cal, but Cal's club team was an opponent) and had great experiences, playing with teammates who were plenty skilled but didn't want to juggle the demands of an NCAA sport with their education.eastcoastcal said:Big C said:stu said:I'd start with Cal and Stanford.RJABear said:
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
Then the other UC campuses (except of course UCLA and UCSF).
Northwestern would fit (except their coast is Lake Michigan).
Rice would fit (except their coast is the Gulf).
I don't think the others you mentioned (or Whitman) are big enough for football.
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
Maybe this move is just accelerating what we all saw coming. Cal students are focused on achievement, not on vicarious pleasure watching sports. Cal's faculty generally considers sports a distraction to be barely tolerated, not something that adds value to either participants or spectators - they've been that way for 50-60 years that I know of. Maybe top-level NCAA football and basketball have pushed to envelop too far for Cal.
Only a very few people would really care.eastcoastcal said:Big C said:
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
Golden One said:Only a very few people would really care.eastcoastcal said:Big C said:
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
What we'd have to do is come up with a new model for the other sports, one that wasn't dependent on subsidies from football revenue. If we value the experience that these student athletes get from competing, we find a way to fund them. Or we eliminate them.
eastcoastcal said:Big C said:stu said:I'd start with Cal and Stanford.RJABear said:
Who would be a west coast ivy ?
- Cal
- Stanford
- Cal Tech
- Pomona/ Harvey Mudd / Pitzer
but then who
- UC Davis ?
- Reed
- Lewis & Clark ?
- Puget Sound ?
- Pepperdine ?
Then the other UC campuses (except of course UCLA and UCSF).
Northwestern would fit (except their coast is Lake Michigan).
Rice would fit (except their coast is the Gulf).
I don't think the others you mentioned (or Whitman) are big enough for football.
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
Uh, isn't that exactly where it's going??
The next TV contract is going to be weak.
unfortunately, if we don't go B1G, i think we have to get used to losing a lot of sports. its a shame but there just won't be money for them.
Instructive to see how the Big West UC's do it (UCSB, UCSD, UCI, UCR). They don't provide much in the way of scholarships, the travel is essentially local and they don't field football. I leave it to others on a Sunday to go onto their websites and count teams.Big C said:Golden One said:Only a very few people would really care.eastcoastcal said:Big C said:
What if they weren't "ivies", but just schools in the west? Start with the former Pac schools that didn't go to the "B1G": WSU, OSU, the Arizonas. Maybe Colorado and Utah (maybe not). Nevada, UNLV, maybe UC Davis, Boise St, SDSU. Sac St? Air Force? We play Stanfurd every year as our last game. The top teams from this "lesser Pac" conference would go to some sort of piss ant bowl game.
I don't know exactly, but some combination of some of the above schools.
Sure, recruiting would drop off a bit, as would quality of play. But probably not all that much. I really don't see how it would be all that much different than what we've been doing, except no LA schools, no UW or Oregon.
Our TV deal would be absolutely terrible with these teams and we'd have to fold many, many sports as a result
What we'd have to do is come up with a new model for the other sports, one that wasn't dependent on subsidies from football revenue. If we value the experience that these student athletes get from competing, we find a way to fund them. Or we eliminate them.
Take care of your Chicken
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