Jaylen Brown on why we lost to Hawaii

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Civil Bear
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Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.
bearsandgiants
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For as smart as Jaylen is, I'm surprised he didn't learn that the best way to avoid having to write a 35-page paper the night before an important game is to start on the paper when it's assigned.
stu
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bearsandgiants said:

For as smart as Jaylen is, I'm surprised he didn't learn that the best way to avoid having to write a 35-page paper the night before an important game is to start on the paper when it's assigned.
Smart isn't the same as wise. I think from that experience he gained wisdom.
HearstMining
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bearsandgiants said:

For as smart as Jaylen is, I'm surprised he didn't learn that the best way to avoid having to write a 35-page paper the night before an important game is to start on the paper when it's assigned.
To be fair, we've all gotten in this pickle and remember, he was just a freshman. Who is to say that he didn't start the paper early but it just took longer than he thought it would? This reminds me of an old saying in the IT business: The first 90% of the project takes up 90% of the scheduled time and the last 10% of the project takes up the other 90%.
SFCityBear
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HearstMining said:

bearsandgiants said:

For as smart as Jaylen is, I'm surprised he didn't learn that the best way to avoid having to write a 35-page paper the night before an important game is to start on the paper when it's assigned.
To be fair, we've all gotten in this pickle and remember, he was just a freshman. Who is to say that he didn't start the paper early but it just took longer than he thought it would? This reminds me of an old saying in the IT business: The first 90% of the project takes up 90% of the scheduled time and the last 10% of the project takes up the other 90%.
Your saying is the story of my life, and still is.
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mbBear
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CalLifer said:

BeachedBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
Yes. That was one of many excuses discussed at the time. But this is a story that impacts so many more athletes than just Jaylen. It is one of the popular differentiators that Cal does not provide the same 'allowances' to athletes that some other schools do.

However, all of that is anecdotal. Back in my day (early 80's), a friend of mine was on the Men's swim team and complained that he didn't get the special treatment that some of the football and basketball players did. When pressed for details, it devolved into general complaining. He was also surprised at the amount of reading, papers and problem sets that a general student such as me had anyway. (Note - he grew up as a 'stud' athlete and always thought he was special anyway
I had never heard this as an excuse (and I'm a pretty regular board reader). It sure seems like one more hurdle to overcome that game along with the other issues surounding the team at that time.
A true freshman student-athlete taking a grad course in season was probably not the best decision he made during his time at Cal...
CalLifer
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mbBear said:

CalLifer said:

BeachedBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

https://www.tiktok.com/@gqsports/video/7147786614196948266?_r=1&_t=8W2SDwPlGik&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7147786614196948266

(Note I had to reload the page once for the video to load). Also was this public knowledge until now?!
Yes. That was one of many excuses discussed at the time. But this is a story that impacts so many more athletes than just Jaylen. It is one of the popular differentiators that Cal does not provide the same 'allowances' to athletes that some other schools do.

However, all of that is anecdotal. Back in my day (early 80's), a friend of mine was on the Men's swim team and complained that he didn't get the special treatment that some of the football and basketball players did. When pressed for details, it devolved into general complaining. He was also surprised at the amount of reading, papers and problem sets that a general student such as me had anyway. (Note - he grew up as a 'stud' athlete and always thought he was special anyway
I had never heard this as an excuse (and I'm a pretty regular board reader). It sure seems like one more hurdle to overcome that game along with the other issues surounding the team at that time.
A true freshman student-athlete taking a grad course in season was probably not the best decision he made during his time at Cal...
I guess I have absolutely no issue with it, esp as it emphasizes the "student" in "student-athlete". We would very likely have had little issue with Hawaii even with that class load from Jaylen if we hadn't lost Bird and Wallace to injury just days before the game.
calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Jeff82
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Things like being able to take a grad class are why he came to Cal in the first place. If he was going to spend hours in the gym working on his jump shot, he would have gone to Kansas, Kentucky, etc. And he ended up as a first round pick anyway. That's his contribution to Cal, the idea that if you're a good player, and you want your year of college to be an intellectual experience, the Association money will still be there for you afterwards.
mbBear
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My comment was definitely in hindsight... but he could have taken decent academic classes without needing to take a grad class requiring a 35 page paper... but without the injuries, we aren't talking about this.
Civil Bear
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calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Yeah, he was apparently competent enough to ride 3 Bruce Pearl seniors to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16.
calumnus
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Jeff82 said:

Things like being able to take a grad class are why he came to Cal in the first place. If he was going to spend hours in the gym working on his jump shot, he would have gone to Kansas, Kentucky, etc. And he ended up as a first round pick anyway. That's his contribution to Cal, the idea that if you're a good player, and you want your year of college to be an intellectual experience, the Association money will still be there for you afterwards.


Great post. Jaylen was the ideal 5 star recruit for Cal. He is the model. For a recruit like Jaylen, there is no school comparable. Berkeley and all its history and messiness, can be an asset if we market it correctly and to the players who would be receptive. However, to do that we also need a coach who embraces that. There is ZERO chance Jaylen would have come to Cal with Mark Fox as our coach. ZERO.
socaltownie
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This!!! We have to have a coach who can recruit socal. Hard stop.
Take care of your Chicken
Jeff82
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Calumnus, I agree with you. I'm all for getting a black coach at Cal, which I believe is implicit in your comment. But it has to be a coach that can coach, which IMHO Martin could not. He is a guy who has used his commendable back story, and his willingness to go into some difficult coaching situations (Tennessee post Bruce Pearl, Missouri, post racial issues) to make more money as a coach than his actual W-L performance justifies.

I still think we should be looking at Travis D., if he would be willing to come here after being jerked around so thoroughly by the administration.
SFCityBear
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socaltownie said:

This!!! We have to have a coach who can recruit socal. Hard stop.
Thanks for this, and I agree.

Growing up here in the Bay Area in an era when Bay Area teams were dominating the NCAA, along with a strong AAU team was great for us young kids. It was two guys from SoCal who played guard for Loyola of LA, Pete Newell and Phil Woolpert, who brought the art of defense to the Bay Area. There was little or no TV, so when USF and Cal traveled to the Final Four, the East Coast and Midwest sportswriters had no idea that Cal or USF could be any good. USF won the NIT, 2 NCAAs and Cal won one NCAA and was runner up in a second NCAA. All with defense and little offense. High school basketball was outstanding here, with many players being named the best player in the state for several years. We had high school All-Americans when the AA teams named only 5 players. The TOC tourney at Harmon was a huge success for years. Our dominance tailed off with the dominance of Wooden's UCLA teams, but for many years, at least up until the arrival at Cal of Jason Kidd, there were still a good number of good high school players here. When I got to Cal in '59, there was still a lot of interest, lots of playground teams, pick up games everywhere. At Cal there were 3 teams, Varsity, JV, and Frosh. The Frosh had 18 scholarships to give, and 60 kids came to the tryouts. 17 already had scholarships, so the rest were playing for one spot. There were Cal students playing in pickup games or games in a league of some kind everywhere in Berkeley. Back in San Francisco, a small city, there were many school and church gyms open day and night for pickup games and rec or church league games.

Then the pro Warriors moved here, and it seemed there was more interest in basketball than ever, from grade school on up. But interest in playing basketball waned over time. I have no idea what happened. Asian migrants moved in, and even with their strong interest in playing basketball, most were not tall enough to compete at the college and pro level. Today, as I wander around the city, the playground hoops are nearly empty, and the gyms are mostly closed after school. One playground gym which used to be basketball only, now has only ping pong players, with 20 or more ping pong tables, and it's at capacity every night. I'm thinking about moving to San Diego, my favorite city. Hopefully, I'll find some games to watch down there. There must be some games going on, because there are good recruits coming from SoCal, and Cal needs to start doing a much better job landing them.


SFCityBear
socaltownie
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SFCityBear said:

socaltownie said:

This!!! We have to have a coach who can recruit socal. Hard stop.
Thanks for this, and I agree.

Growing up here in the Bay Area in an era when Bay Area teams were dominating the NCAA, along with a strong AAU team was great for us young kids. It was two guys from SoCal who played guard for Loyola of LA, Pete Newell and Phil Woolpert, who brought the art of defense to the Bay Area. There was little or no TV, so when USF and Cal traveled to the Final Four, the East Coast and Midwest sportswriters had no idea that Cal or USF could be any good. USF won the NIT, 2 NCAAs and Cal won one NCAA and was runner up in a second NCAA. All with defense and little offense. High school basketball was outstanding here, with many players being named the best player in the state for several years. We had high school All-Americans when the AA teams named only 5 players. The TOC tourney at Harmon was a huge success for years. Our dominance tailed off with the dominance of Wooden's UCLA teams, but for many years, at least up until the arrival at Cal of Jason Kidd, there were still a good number of good high school players here. When I got to Cal in '59, there was still a lot of interest, lots of playground teams, pick up games everywhere. At Cal there were 3 teams, Varsity, JV, and Frosh. The Frosh had 18 scholarships to give, and 60 kids came to the tryouts. 17 already had scholarships, so the rest were playing for one spot. There were Cal students playing in pickup games or games in a league of some kind everywhere in Berkeley. Back in San Francisco, a small city, there were many school and church gyms open day and night for pickup games and rec or church league games.

Then the pro Warriors moved here, and it seemed there was more interest in basketball than ever, from grade school on up. But interest in playing basketball waned over time. I have no idea what happened. Asian migrants moved in, and even with their strong interest in playing basketball, most were not tall enough to compete at the college and pro level. Today, as I wander around the city, the playground hoops are nearly empty, and the gyms are mostly closed after school. One playground gym which used to be basketball only, now has only ping pong players, with 20 or more ping pong tables, and it's at capacity every night. I'm thinking about moving to San Diego, my favorite city. Hopefully, I'll find some games to watch down there. There must be some games going on, because there are good recruits coming from SoCal, and Cal needs to start doing a much better job landing them.



It isn't this complicated. IIRC, 60% of the state's population lives south of the grapevine. I bet a bit higher for men age 17 and 7under. Probably even a bit higher for AA. More than most sports BB has a pretty significant premium of "Physicality" - with kids that skew in the upper 5% of height and frame having an advantage over the rest (compared to say golf or tennis or even football where different body types can complete/find positions they can play).

So there are advantages of recruiting in metro areas with just lots and lots of kids.
Take care of your Chicken
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

eastcoastcal said:

SFCityBear said:

Civil Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

KoreAmBear said:

eastcoastcal said:

I know his Missouri stint was not super great (though he did reach 2 NCAA tournaments) but would you all be interested in a reunion? Obviously whether he'd even want to come back is important, but let's say he did want a job- would fans here want him back?
Much better recruiter than Fox.
Much easier school to recruit for in Duke.


Pretty sure the Fox recruiting comparison is to Martin. With the exception of two recruiting classes, I'm not to confident Martin is any better.
Thanks for pointing that out. I apologize for the brain cramp. With so many good posts to respond to, I got them mixed up.
I agree with you on Cuonzo. I think he recruited for star power, name recognition, players who he had to know would not be around for more than one or two seasons. That was true for Brown, Rabb, and maybe Moore. Domingo had the recruit chops once, but was a bust for Georgetown. I think recruiting for star power is not a good fit for Cal, especially now, with the program at the bottom of the conference. The best way to build a program from the bottom up, IMO, is to go after good players who are not NBA-ready, and perhaps not future NBA talent, but rather are 3 and 4 star players who will stay at Cal for 3 or 4 years. The program I like is Virginia, and they started in this fashion, with 3 and 4 star recruits, and with coaching the results just got better and better.

What do you think about Tony Bennett's apparent recruiting strategy at Virginia? Bennett took over a program in 2009 that had finished in 11th place in the ACC. He inherited a team with four top 100 players (three 4* and one 3*). They improved gradually and made the NCAA in his 3rd season, losing in the 2nd round. Then he lost the 4 players, and had to rebuild. He slowly began landing his own top 100 recruits, and went on to many season of success. In his 5th season, he won the ACC title, with a team which had 3 top 100 players (one 4* and two 3*). The following season, he won the ACC again, with 5 top 100 players (two 4* and three 3*) . The following season, he finished 2nd in the ACC with 3 top 100 players, all 3*. He was doing this with players like London Perrantes, who was not ranked in the top 100 as a recruit. Bennett does it all with primarily 3 and 4 year players, most of whom are not top 100 ranked, or ranked at all.

In 2018 Bennett won the ACC again, this time with three 4* and a 3*. In 2019, he won the ACC and the NCAA title, with five 4* players. In 2021, he won the ACC again with five 4* and a 3*.

Tony Bennett has been the head coach at Virginia for 13 seasons. His teams have won one NCAA title, and have been seeded #1 four times. The have also made an Elite 8, and a Sweet 16, out of 8 appearances in the tournament. He has won the ACC title 5 times. And he did all this with only one bona fide consensus 5* player, Austin Nichols who transferred from Memphis, played one season at Virginia before turning pro. He had two other players who were either 4* or 5* (depending on which recruit rankings you look at): Sylven Landesberg, who Bennett inherited when he was named head coach, and who played one season for Bennett before turning pro, and Kyle Guy, who played 3 years for Bennett, before he turned pro.

The problem with Cuonzo's approach is that it is good for only one season, maybe two at best, before they leave. And one or two injuries, and there goes even your one season. Cuonzo was fortunate that Montgomery had left him with enough very good players to complement his star recruits. But he either had no plan or his plan failed, because he was unable tor bring in more good players to replace the ones who left. Lee was good, and Moore, but that was not much, considering how many players Cal lost. And Cuonzo himself lost Mathews, whom he did not handle well. Duke and Kentucky attract a stable full of one-and-dones year after year. That is not Cal, and likely never will be. I would shoot for the Virginia model for Cal. I'd hire Bennett in a heartbeat, and I'd take a look at any of Bennett's assistants who might be willing to leave Virginia for the Bay Area. Unless Cal shows some real improvement this season, that is.






I agree that the Virginia model would be great to emulate- another note, is that Virginia itself is a pretty good school so he has to deal with admissions as well.

I guess the difference is that he was able to recruit the 4 stars to Virginia consistently (outside 2013 and 2017 he's always had a top-100 player in his recruiting class) whereas at this point we aren't even getting anyone in the top 150. The exception being Bowser. I mean if you look at hyper-recently, we're not even recruiting in the top 200 lol. Even with all the pitfalls of Cal, there's no reason why recruiting should be this poor. Even with the lack of practice facility and new NIL world, we simply can't be that bad that we're only getting no-stars and low 3-stars.

The next coach simply has to do better and bring a much better recruiting staff. Got to win the norcal recruits (the Mahaney's of the world) and have a better socal presence. I also refuse to believe that every good Oakland Soldier & Prolific Prep player doesn't qualify for admission. Cmon. In today's world with grade inflation there MUST be kids from those programs with > 3.0 GPA.

Would love to grab a top Virginia assistant to lead our team. I know some posters have reservations about a non-california based head coach but I think given the similarity of how we'd like to transform our program like Virginia did, I'd be happy to nab a Virginia staff member.


Virginia teams have been full of Top 100 players when they were good. However, last year Bennett had "only" two, finished 6th in the ACC and missed the NCAA tournament, narrowly won a couple games in the NIT.

Bennett, plays very slow, but is VERY efficient on offense and defense. I much prefer Few whose Gonzaga teams are also VERY efficient on both ends but play fast. Randy Bennett at St. Mary's is similar (as was Monty and Coach K). However, slow and efficient is MUCH preferable to slow and inefficient (Fox and Martin).

Last year Cal was #330 in 3pt shots made, Virginia was #350. USF was #17.

I just don't think slow down, defense first basketball is ever going to be popular with recruits on the West Coast who grew up rooting for the Lakers and Warriors. Finding a charismatic (young?) coach who can recruit and, along with his staff, can teach, coach and strategize efficient basketball really isn't as tough as people make it out to be.




You would marginalize Tony Bennett, a very successful coach, by distorting what his roster looked like? What do you mean when you say that he had a roster "full" of top 100 players? Compared to what, exactly? Compared to Cal's current roster, Virginia's roster would be "full". But Virginia doesn't have to get past Cal to get to the NCAA. They have to get past the rest of the ACC. To evaluate Bennett as a coach and recruiter, we need to compare his rosters to the rosters of his competitors in the ACC.

Bennett was hired by Virginia in 2009, and his best seasons were from 2014 to 2021, an 8 year period, where Virginia was the ACC champion 4 times, tied for ACC champion another time, won the ACC Tournament twice, and won the NCAA National Championship. Bennett's Virginia rosters in those 8 years averaged only 4 top 100 players per roster, with ZERO five-star or top 25 ranked players. (He signed one five-star player, Austin Nichols, who redshirted one season, and then the next season, played one game and then broke team rules, and was dismissed from the team by Bennett)

Let me tell you what I think a roster "full" of Top 100 players for the same 8 year period looked like in the ACC:

Duke over the same 8-year period: 72 top 100 players, (45 5-star players, and 27 4-stars) That is an average of 9 top 100 players per roster, more than twice as many as Bennett had at Virginia, 45 were 5-stars, while Bennett had no 5-star players at all.

North Carolina over the same 8-year period: 66 top 100 players on his 8 rosters, 29 5-star players, and 37 4-stars. That is an average of 8.3 top 100 players per roster, twice as many as Bennett had at Virginia, 29 were 5-stars, while Bennett had no 5-star players at all.

Bennett's record from 2014-2019 vs all AP ranked teams (including Cal) with more top 100 players on their rosters than Virginia in those games was 38-21.

Going back to Cal for a moment, it may be instructive to look at the Virginia-Cal games of 2015 and 2016. In both games, Cal's rosters would seem to be "full" by your definition, compared to Virginia. In 2015, Cal had three 5-star players and one 4-star player, while Virginia had Brogdon, a 4-star, and the rest were all 3-stars. Brogdon was a two-time Consensus All America. Four of Virginia's starters were later named to the ACC All-defensive team in their careers. Virginia won in overtime.

In the 2016 game, Cal had two five-stars, Rabb and Bird, a 4-star, Moore, while Virginia had two 4-stars, Kyle Guy, who was the 6th man, and Mike Tobey, who played 7 minutes and scored 2 pts. All of Virginia's starters were 3-star players. Virginia won by 4.

Tony Bennett's rosters were not "full" of top 100 players, not even close. He appears to be a really good judge of player ability, landing some very good Top 100 players, and an extraordinary number of 3-star and unranked players who won as many or more individual ACC awards than did his Top 100 recruits, who won a lot of those awards themselves. Nearly every year his players made the All-ACC teams and the ACC All-Defense teams. After looking over all his rosters and the accomplishments it looks to me like he recruited especially for two things, defense and longevity. He had an extraordinary number of 3-star and unranked recruits who were great players for him. His best player might have been Malcolm Brogdon, ranked #94 in the top 100, who should have been ranked much higher, IMO. Unlike a lot of successful programs, he had a lot of players, both Top 100, and 3-star or unranked, who stayed for 3 or 4 years. I feel that this is the way to recruit when you are starting at or near the bottom of your league (Bennett took over a team which had a losing record, finishing in 11th place in the ACC, and in a very short time, raised them to national prominence, not with 5-star players, but with 4-stars, often players near the bottom of the top 100 list, along with really talented 3-star players like London Perrantes, Darion Atkins, Isaiah Wilkins, Joe Harris, and many others who played 4 years. I think you build programs with recruits like that, and when you start having success, then add the occasional 5-star, to help you get over the top. If the 5-star guy leaves early, it is easier to replace him than it is to replace 3 or 4 of them.

As to playing fast, you can't play fast if you don't have the horses. They must have speed and stamina, and able to play fast without turnovers or injuries. There are not enough players like that to fill all the teams, even all the P5 teams. I like defense first coaches. There is no reason a defense first coach can not play fast on offense, if he has the personnel.

As to whether a defense-minded coach can recruit California kids, Bennett did have three California kids on his rosters, and two were outstanding: 3-star London Perrantes, a 4-year starter from LA, who was a huge factor in Virginia defeating Cal in 2015, when he had 6 assists and held Tyrone Wallace to 10 points and zero assists. He also was named NCAA All Region, All-ACC, and ACC All-Tourney teams. The other was unranked Kihei Clark, a 5'-9", 145 pound guard who was a 4 year player and 3-year starter from Woodland Hills, who was on the NCAA Championship team and also was named to the All-ACC team.






















SFCityBear
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https://images.axios.com/dcm6ZoVsLqjnFqNU7CI8hTJzsIk=/0x483:4602x3072/1920x1080/2022/11/10/1668053477046.jpg

Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown on Wednesday scored 30+ points in the same game for the 15th time, the third-most by any pair of teammates over the last 30 seasons.

Question: Which two pairs did it more?
-Axios
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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
PtownBear1
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bearister said:

https://images.axios.com/dcm6ZoVsLqjnFqNU7CI8hTJzsIk=/0x483:4602x3072/1920x1080/2022/11/10/1668053477046.jpg

Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown on Wednesday scored 30+ points in the same game for the 15th time, the third-most by any pair of teammates over the last 30 seasons.

Question: Which two pairs did it more?
-Axios
I'm going to guess Steph and Klay as one of the pairs?
bearmanpg
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West and Baylor..
bearister
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bearmanpg said:

West and Baylor..


….that is more than 30 seasons ago.

Trivia answer: Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant (Thunder); Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant (Lakers)
-Axios
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
bearmanpg
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bearister said:

bearmanpg said:

West and Baylor..


….that is more than 30 seasons ago.

Trivia answer: Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant (Thunder); Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant (Lakers)
-Axios
I'm slipping into SFCity's territory....sorry SFCB....
SFCityBear
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bearmanpg said:

bearister said:

bearmanpg said:

West and Baylor..


….that is more than 30 seasons ago.

Trivia answer: Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant (Thunder); Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant (Lakers)
-Axios
I'm slipping into SFCity's territory....sorry SFCB....

Do you mean basketball during the age in which I grew up, or are you referring to my ever increasing memory cramps? I hope you never have any of those. I can't remember what I had for lunch. It will come to me, eventually.

By the way, it is hard to get anything past Bearister.
SFCityBear
calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Yeah, he was apparently competent enough to ride 3 Bruce Pearl seniors to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16.


Of the three future NBA players, Stokes and Richardson were signed by Martin and never played for Pearl. Neither was a top 100 recruit. The highest rated recruit, Hubbs (#22), was a freshman on that team.
calumnus
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Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!


The people who point out Martin was not able to recruit as well at Tennessee and Missouri as he did at Cal are just making my case.

Cal has a recruiting advantage for coaches that know how to sell it, as Martin did to Jaylen Brown. I doubt he could have landed Brown at Tennessee or Missouri.
Civil Bear
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calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Yeah, he was apparently competent enough to ride 3 Bruce Pearl seniors to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16.


Of the three future NBA players, Stokes and Richardson were signed by Martin and never played for Pearl. Neither was a top 100 recruit. The highest rated recruit, Hubbs (#22), was a freshman on that team.
Yes, with 3 Pearl seniors and 2 Martin juniors (that played in the NBA) starting and getting the vast majority of the minutes, Martin was competent enough to make it to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16. The highlight of his 14-year career. Granted, as much luck as he received in the 2014 tourney that year, he lost as much luck when Monty's top recruits couldn't play in the 2016 tourney.

There is no question that Martin has been able to pull in the occasional NBA prospect. The problem is that he has been so inconsistent that his recruiting classes rarely averaged even 3-stars. His MO has been to bolt (or get canned in the case of Missouri) once his lack of recruiting caught up to him.

calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Yeah, he was apparently competent enough to ride 3 Bruce Pearl seniors to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16.


Of the three future NBA players, Stokes and Richardson were signed by Martin and never played for Pearl. Neither was a top 100 recruit. The highest rated recruit, Hubbs (#22), was a freshman on that team.
Yes, with 3 Pearl seniors and 2 Martin juniors (that played in the NBA) starting and getting the vast majority of the minutes, Martin was competent enough to make it to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16. The highlight of his 14-year career. Granted, as much luck as he received in the 2014 tourney that year, he lost as much luck when Monty's top recruits couldn't play in the 2016 tourney.

There is no question that Martin has been able to pull in the occasional NBA prospect. The problem is that he has been so inconsistent that his recruiting classes rarely averaged even 3-stars. His MO has been to bolt (or get canned in the case of Missouri) once his lack of recruiting caught up to him.




Showing that Cal is easier to recruit to than the SEC.

I get that you REALLY didn't like or give any credit to Martin or Jones for the players they brought in. Why no similar level of criticism of Fox?


Civil Bear
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calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

Martin's recruiting was the best we've had in fifty years, although you could argue that Braun's recruiting was close, and more conducive to stability over a period of time

Remember that Martin also recruited Lee to Cal, and the Big PF was coming to Cal too if his guardian didn't over ride his decision

But Martin had one fatal recruiting flaw ... he too often swung for the fences on players who were not going to be academically successful at Cal. When he missed or they were not admitted, he signed some late reaches

However in the transfer portal era I think he would have done better for Cal, as he could have filled those open spots later in the process, and I think his retention of his good players would be very strong

Martin had only one good recruiting year at Cal. It's why the cupboard was bare when he left. If not for the one fluke recruiting class, every other coach over the last 30 years not named Fox had better recruiting classes.

Maybe CM's one good recruiting year was the norm and his other, far lesser years were the flukes! Go ahead and try and rap your head around that!

Perhaps, but he's had only one other noteworthy recruiting class in 14 years, and he had to hire the twin's dad to land it.

I can't speak to his years at Missouri, but I recall leading up to Cal he had never landed a class that averaged even 3 stars.


So he got Tennessee to a Sweet 16 with his coaching?
Yeah, he was apparently competent enough to ride 3 Bruce Pearl seniors to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16.


Of the three future NBA players, Stokes and Richardson were signed by Martin and never played for Pearl. Neither was a top 100 recruit. The highest rated recruit, Hubbs (#22), was a freshman on that team.
Yes, with 3 Pearl seniors and 2 Martin juniors (that played in the NBA) starting and getting the vast majority of the minutes, Martin was competent enough to make it to the play-in game and then lucky enough to catch a 14-seed opponent in the second round on the way to the Sweet 16. The highlight of his 14-year career. Granted, as much luck as he received in the 2014 tourney that year, he lost as much luck when Monty's top recruits couldn't play in the 2016 tourney.

There is no question that Martin has been able to pull in the occasional NBA prospect. The problem is that he has been so inconsistent that his recruiting classes rarely averaged even 3-stars. His MO has been to bolt (or get canned in the case of Missouri) once his lack of recruiting caught up to him.




Showing that Cal is easier to recruit to than the SEC.

I get that you REALLY didn't like or give any credit to Martin or Jones for the players they brought in. Why no similar level of criticism of Fox?



Your first sentence: A hard no.

Your second sentence: If I haven't criticized Fox's recruiting enough for you it's because most of the rest of the posters on this board already have it covered.

Recruiting chops: Jones>Martin>Fox. I had no qualms about Jones' recruiting at Cal and never suggested otherwise. Martin being a better recruiter than Fox does not make him a good recruiter. And I don't appreciate your veiled accusation of racism. I will no longer be reading or responding to your posts.
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bearister
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Celtic pride: Jaylen Brown (41-12) went off in Wednesday's win over the Pelicans, becoming just the sixth player in Celtics history with multiple 40-point, 10-rebound games.
-Axios

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bearface75
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Can't believe Brown didn't make all star game last year. More complete player than ball-hog Tatum. I vote for Jaylen every day!
bearister
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Most recent NBA thread so I parked it here:

You are not going to see the Warriors drop 144 points very often….and when they do, you are not going to see the Splash Brothers account for only 31 points of the 144 very often.
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