Is it possible to win with Cal Basketball right now?

7,062 Views | 83 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Chapman_is_Gone
MoragaBear
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BeachedBear said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:


Sure, there's the lack of practice facility, the NIL situation and the academic restrictions. Making in-roads there will help pave the way for the future.

But the coach is always the most important factor.

Would love a younger Monty, a little better with the recruiting, or a Cuonzo, a little better with the offense. (obviously, at this point either of them, as is, would be an improvement)
Guonzo has a worse track record at this stage in his career than Fox had when he came to Cal. Leaving the Bears with the cupboard bare, just like he did at Tennessee, is a part of the reason we are where we are now. Unless he could bring three 5*'s and a 4* as good as Brown, Rabb, Bird, and Wallace, I do not see how he would be an improvement.



Proof that, for a coach that embraces and sells Berkeley, Cal is a better place to recruit to and win than Missouri. Think about it: would Jaylen Brown ever have considered Missouri, even if Cuonzo were still there? No, it was the combination of Cuonzo and Berkeley that worked. Same with Rabb, who wouldn't consider Cal until Martin came here.
Let's say you are right that Brown wouldn't have gone to Missouri: do you seriously believe Cal is easier to recruit? Guys with Brown's skillset (top 5 in HS) that consider themselves intellectuals don't come around that often. That's why Martin wasn't able to repeat it. In fact, some of the best players he recruited couldn't get accepted to Cal. And it's a good thing Rabb was from Oakland, because without his commitment we may not have seen Brown either.

And how do you know Fox doesn't embrace and try to sell Berkeley? I would guess he does, but just isn't as slick a salesman as Martin.
I know you were responding to Calumnus, but I feel in terms of recruiting, that Cal is in the bottom half of over 300 D1 programs (i.e. worse than 150 other programs). Definitely in the bottom of the high major programs.

Every school has its pros and cons - and some more than others, but I feel that the last two coaching staffs are definitely recruiting below Cals weight.

I don't expect Cal to have a top 25 class every year, but we should regularly be in the 25-100 range most seasons - regardless of our shortcomings. We have been well below that level for quite a while now.
Cal's recruiting hasn't been good for a while but outside of the Top 150 team rankings? Not at all.

2022: 73 (only 2 players) 247: 70
2021: 39 (3 players) 247: 67
2020: 71 (only 2 players) 247: 87
2019: 75 (only 2 players) 247: 65
BeachedBear
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MoragaBear said:

BeachedBear said:

Civil Bear said:

calumnus said:

Civil Bear said:

Big C said:


Sure, there's the lack of practice facility, the NIL situation and the academic restrictions. Making in-roads there will help pave the way for the future.

But the coach is always the most important factor.

Would love a younger Monty, a little better with the recruiting, or a Cuonzo, a little better with the offense. (obviously, at this point either of them, as is, would be an improvement)
Guonzo has a worse track record at this stage in his career than Fox had when he came to Cal. Leaving the Bears with the cupboard bare, just like he did at Tennessee, is a part of the reason we are where we are now. Unless he could bring three 5*'s and a 4* as good as Brown, Rabb, Bird, and Wallace, I do not see how he would be an improvement.



Proof that, for a coach that embraces and sells Berkeley, Cal is a better place to recruit to and win than Missouri. Think about it: would Jaylen Brown ever have considered Missouri, even if Cuonzo were still there? No, it was the combination of Cuonzo and Berkeley that worked. Same with Rabb, who wouldn't consider Cal until Martin came here.
Let's say you are right that Brown wouldn't have gone to Missouri: do you seriously believe Cal is easier to recruit? Guys with Brown's skillset (top 5 in HS) that consider themselves intellectuals don't come around that often. That's why Martin wasn't able to repeat it. In fact, some of the best players he recruited couldn't get accepted to Cal. And it's a good thing Rabb was from Oakland, because without his commitment we may not have seen Brown either.

And how do you know Fox doesn't embrace and try to sell Berkeley? I would guess he does, but just isn't as slick a salesman as Martin.
I know you were responding to Calumnus, but I feel in terms of recruiting, that Cal is in the bottom half of over 300 D1 programs (i.e. worse than 150 other programs). Definitely in the bottom of the high major programs.

Every school has its pros and cons - and some more than others, but I feel that the last two coaching staffs are definitely recruiting below Cals weight.

I don't expect Cal to have a top 25 class every year, but we should regularly be in the 25-100 range most seasons - regardless of our shortcomings. We have been well below that level for quite a while now.
Cal's recruiting hasn't been good for a while but outside of the Top 150 team rankings? Not at all.

2022: 73 (only 2 players) 247: 70
2021: 39 (3 players) 247: 67
2020: 71 (only 2 players) 247: 87
2019: 75 (only 2 players) 247: 65
Thanks MB - I was just guessing about outside of top 150. But I guess I was pretty spot on about being at the bottom of high major programs.
BeachedBear
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4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
SFCALBear72
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BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
BC Calfan
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We entertained the idea of building another floor on top of our house. Seems like a logical move to add space. We learned a quick lesson when we had a structural engineer visit to provide an assessment. He said, just to get the foundational reinforcement it would cost at least $250k. And that's without any construction to the additional floor. Most buildings don't have the structural support to just add layers. They're designed and built to support the floors that exist.

So while, it seems like building on top of RSF makes a lot of sense, I'm sure it would be just as expensive as any other plan. Also, it's worth mentioning that any building that gets that high can disrupt the skyline and views and that alone could be a non-starter.
4thGenCal
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SFCALBear72 said:

BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
Fair question - but a warehouse bldg has a specific zoning/use(storage and not people intensive - thus limited parking etc) - and would require a conditional use permit approval by the City (long community involved process with no guarantee of final approval). Older industrial/wardhouse bldgs "if" approved for zoning (multi year process) are very expensive to convert due to required code upgrades from earthquake, ADA etc regulations And being off campus, brings on logistical issues. The current proposed site is perfect for location and size parameters.
Bobodeluxe
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Civil Bear said:

dimitrig said:


I worked with a government contractor to install a humidifier in an existing room. The cost was $90K even though the price of the unit itself was just $10K. I could have rebuilt the entire room for $90K and had money left over.

I read that Caltrans replaced a roof for a rather typical house they owned (eminent domain) and it cost $200K.

Don't compare private sector to government when it comes to facilities costs. Contractors see the government is paying and bid accordingly.


Government construction projects go to the low bidder with discounts awarded to local, women, and minority owned businesses. That said, responsible bidders need to factor in all the additional costs incurred due to the red tape inherent with government projects (additional staffing needed for more paperwork, inspections, environmental regs, community relations, ADA requirements, etc.), as does the government agency to monitor it all. Low-bidders also tend to be particularly adept at seeking out Change Orders that do not have to be competitively priced, which always drives up the final cost considerably.
"Change orders" are where the money is. Bid low, and smile. "Sure, we can do that, too."
SFCALBear72
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4thGenCal said:

SFCALBear72 said:

BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
Fair question - but a warehouse bldg has a specific zoning/use(storage and not people intensive - thus limited parking etc) - and would require a conditional use permit approval by the City (long community involved process with no guarantee of final approval). Older industrial/wardhouse bldgs "if" approved for zoning (multi year process) are very expensive to convert due to required code upgrades from earthquake, ADA etc regulations And being off campus, brings on logistical issues. The current proposed site is perfect for location and size parameters.
Thanks for explaining the process in more detail. I should have known it was more complicated than buying and renovating.
PtownBear1
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4thGenCal said:

SFCALBear72 said:

BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
Fair question - but a warehouse bldg has a specific zoning/use(storage and not people intensive - thus limited parking etc) - and would require a conditional use permit approval by the City (long community involved process with no guarantee of final approval). Older industrial/wardhouse bldgs "if" approved for zoning (multi year process) are very expensive to convert due to required code upgrades from earthquake, ADA etc regulations And being off campus, brings on logistical issues. The current proposed site is perfect for location and size parameters.
Sorry to keep throwing scenarios at you, but couldn't they have just proposed building something more moderate on the selected site? Instead of another multipurpose facility, a basic basketball (men and women) practice facility?
4thGenCal
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PtownBear1 said:

4thGenCal said:

SFCALBear72 said:

BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
Fair question - but a warehouse bldg has a specific zoning/use(storage and not people intensive - thus limited parking etc) - and would require a conditional use permit approval by the City (long community involved process with no guarantee of final approval). Older industrial/wardhouse bldgs "if" approved for zoning (multi year process) are very expensive to convert due to required code upgrades from earthquake, ADA etc regulations And being off campus, brings on logistical issues. The current proposed site is perfect for location and size parameters.
Sorry to keep throwing scenarios at you, but couldn't they have just proposed building something more moderate on the selected site? Instead of another multipurpose facility, a basic basketball (men and women) practice facility?
Yes - but then the earlier mentioned "political factors" come into play with all of the required campus committee's sign off (a large #) another words the more areas/functions/programs helped the better for approvals needed. And a basic basketball facility would not address the woeful weight training facility in place, nutrition upgrade areas, gymnastics space/time scheduling etc and its a bit of a domino impact with required ADA regulations etc, so even a "simple facility" IF approved would still be costly. Long term, if this proposed facility can raise the funds needed, its a Huge benefit to both basketball programs - coaches and players have been very strong proponents of building the practice facility for decades.
Bobodeluxe
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PtownBear1 said:

4thGenCal said:

SFCALBear72 said:

BeachedBear said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

based on the construction projects I've been involved with in California $50M for a roof top court/facility is not out of the question, and actually could be more considering supply chain and labor shortage, especially because the current RSF was not designed for it, and it's not just an interior build out (the shell also needs to be built)

$50M sounds like a lot, but in construction it's surprisingly not.

Of course you could build a basic high school-type gym at a substantially lower cost (two baskets and a ball) if all you wanted was a court to put up shots or run a practice similar to the Gold gym
Yes that is correct, with "ADA" (American Disabilites Act" and foundation reinforcement code requirements - (thus extra materials/ costs increase and union prices especially in California are extremely high - all before the supply chain, inflation factors weigh in. Elevators required along with bathrooms double sets of stairwells etc. Costs would spiral to the point where building on the proposed ground to the Arena would result in a Far greater use/multi purpose facility at a surprisingly closer total cost(to a "stream lined roof added facility in RSF) than thought. But the main issue goes to the earlier points raised: required benefit to multiple programs, improved weight training facilities for both men and women (current layout is woefully inefficient and too small an area) and huge need for nutritional support, better Rehab support etc. Its a needed facility that will address multiple needs, plus satisfy the voices(campus committee's) who demand multiple benefits be spread around.
Just spit balling here . . . How about a two prong approach?

Prong 1 - start/continue the $100Million+ effort on the multi-use practice facility. Seems like this is going to take at least 10 years.

Prong 2 - Right Now: Convert/Assign/Do what ever needs to be done to 'dedicate' an existing facility on or near campus? First - this would address the pressing need that our shooting woes are due to lack of dedicated facilities - and as we all know - it is not about quality - they just need to be indoors and 10 feet high with a backboard (well two baskets and a ball - just play). Second - this can address the checkbox for recruiting. Maybe not a bright check box, but at least demonstrate that the AD cares about basketball and is working toward a solution with a stop-gap measure.
Why not look for vacant warehouse space in Berkeley that could be purchased, renovated and adapted as a space for the basketball teams and gymnastics teams to practice? Add locker rooms, showers, etc. Any unused space could be offered to other departments. Get some architecture students involved in the design. Lower price tag. Quicker turnaround.
Fair question - but a warehouse bldg has a specific zoning/use(storage and not people intensive - thus limited parking etc) - and would require a conditional use permit approval by the City (long community involved process with no guarantee of final approval). Older industrial/wardhouse bldgs "if" approved for zoning (multi year process) are very expensive to convert due to required code upgrades from earthquake, ADA etc regulations And being off campus, brings on logistical issues. The current proposed site is perfect for location and size parameters.
Sorry to keep throwing scenarios at you, but couldn't they have just proposed building something more moderate on the selected site? Instead of another multipurpose facility, a basic basketball (men and women) practice facility?
It's all about "buy in". What do you see? UC Berkeley.
Jeff82
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Do not discount the political factors that 4thGenCal describes in relation to getting a practice facility built. A lot of what happens in the AD, IMHO, is governed by Title IX compliance. You're not going to be able to build a facility just for men's basketball, or probably for men's and women's basketball alone, and get support for it on campus, or even from some of the donors, because it'll be seen as screwing the other sports, much as field hockey got screwed out of their field for football, ultimately resulting in a lawsuit against the school.

A bigger question, which I will pose again here, is the idea of complying with Title IX only on the numerical prong, matching the ratio of male to female athletes to the ratio of male to female students, which will require cutting a number of men's sports entirely, and rosters of some others as well, which is what Sandy Barbour proposed.
Bobodeluxe
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Jeff82 said:

Do not discount the political factors that 4thGenCal describes in relation to getting a practice facility built. A lot of what happens in the AD, IMHO, is governed by Title IX compliance. You're not going to be able to build a facility just for men's basketball, or probably for men's and women's basketball alone, and get support for it on campus, or even from some of the donors, because it'll be seen as screwing the other sports, much as field hockey got screwed out of their field for football, ultimately resulting in a lawsuit against the school.

A bigger question, which I will pose again here, is the idea of complying with Title IX only on the numerical prong, matching the ratio of male to female athletes to the ratio of male to female students, which will require cutting a number of men's sports entirely, and rosters of some others as well, which is what Sandy Barbour proposed.
Exactly. Every faction has to buy in. Many also bring substantial $.
calumnus
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BC Calfan said:

We entertained the idea of building another floor on top of our house. Seems like a logical move to add space. We learned a quick lesson when we had a structural engineer visit to provide an assessment. He said, just to get the foundational reinforcement it would cost at least $250k. And that's without any construction to the additional floor. Most buildings don't have the structural support to just add layers. They're designed and built to support the floors that exist.

So while, it seems like building on top of RSF makes a lot of sense, I'm sure it would be just as expensive as any other plan. Also, it's worth mentioning that any building that gets that high can disrupt the skyline and views and that alone could be a non-starter.


We are talking about adding a floor. We are talking about a ultra light roof top atrium with a basketball court inside. Something that would not weigh more than a tent or the temporary canopies set up for weddings.
dimitrig
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calumnus said:

BC Calfan said:

We entertained the idea of building another floor on top of our house. Seems like a logical move to add space. We learned a quick lesson when we had a structural engineer visit to provide an assessment. He said, just to get the foundational reinforcement it would cost at least $250k. And that's without any construction to the additional floor. Most buildings don't have the structural support to just add layers. They're designed and built to support the floors that exist.

So while, it seems like building on top of RSF makes a lot of sense, I'm sure it would be just as expensive as any other plan. Also, it's worth mentioning that any building that gets that high can disrupt the skyline and views and that alone could be a non-starter.


We are talking about adding a floor. We are talking about a roof top atrium with a basketball court inside. Something that would not weigh more than a tent or the temporary canopies set up for weddings.


What about the weight of the players and equipment?

That's easily a few tons at least.


4thGenCal
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calumnus said:

BC Calfan said:

We entertained the idea of building another floor on top of our house. Seems like a logical move to add space. We learned a quick lesson when we had a structural engineer visit to provide an assessment. He said, just to get the foundational reinforcement it would cost at least $250k. And that's without any construction to the additional floor. Most buildings don't have the structural support to just add layers. They're designed and built to support the floors that exist.

So while, it seems like building on top of RSF makes a lot of sense, I'm sure it would be just as expensive as any other plan. Also, it's worth mentioning that any building that gets that high can disrupt the skyline and views and that alone could be a non-starter.


We are talking about adding a floor. We are talking about a roof top atrium with a basketball court inside. Something that would not weigh more than a tent or the temporary canopies set up for weddings.
Trust me - its not that simple, its my business to work with bldgs/construction and dealing with the code requirements(ADA, exiting, earthquake standards etc). But there are many other factors involved here that have been mentioned on earlier messages etc. The political factors also weigh heavily as well, to gain any approvals - there have been prior lawsuits from different programs who felt ignored, on projects being built. If this proposed facility can be built and yes it will require substantial monies, it will benefit multiple programs and greatly improve the substandard current weight training facility, add needed nutritional program space etc.
eastcoastcal
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I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
HoopDreams
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Civil Bear said:

dimitrig said:


I worked with a government contractor to install a humidifier in an existing room. The cost was $90K even though the price of the unit itself was just $10K. I could have rebuilt the entire room for $90K and had money left over.

I read that Caltrans replaced a roof for a rather typical house they owned (eminent domain) and it cost $200K.

Don't compare private sector to government when it comes to facilities costs. Contractors see the government is paying and bid accordingly.


Government construction projects go to the low bidder with discounts awarded to local, women, and minority owned businesses. That said, responsible bidders need to factor in all the additional costs incurred due to the red tape inherent with government projects (additional staffing needed for more paperwork, inspections, environmental regs, community relations, ADA requirements, etc.), as does the government agency to monitor it all. Low-bidders also tend to be particularly adept at seeking out Change Orders that do not have to be competitively priced, which always drives up the final cost considerably.
agree. the reason I know you have experience in construction costs is you mentioned two innocent words ... "change orders"
Big C
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eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)

Hey guys, I just crunched some numbers: Instead of needing some HUGE donors -- I know I don't have that kind of money -- how about if we get everybody on earth to donate a penny! Who the hell can't afford a penny?!?

In return, we could call it the People's Practice Pavillion and all the people in the world would be able to use it... providing of course, they went to Cal and joined one of the Cal Sports teams (so now it would be a quite a recruiting tool, as well)!


you're welcome
HoopDreams
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anyone able to make it to the event?




eastcoastcal
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HoopDreams said:

anyone able to make it to the event?





went at 5:50, waited til like 6:30 (or somewhere around there) in the line for t-shirts, they kept saying "5 more mins" and idk what they were waiting for so I got fed up and left cuz I had other events to go to

As a side note, pretty clear free t-shirts are one of the best ways to get people to show up to games. At least a few hundred kids waiting in line for them
4thGenCal
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eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
The AD is not overestimating the interest/need and financial support. To be clear this will be More than a basketball facility. This multi use facility will be four floors. Current plans call for with weight training/nutrition/ support rooms - first floor, Men's basketball court on the 2nd floor, Women's basketball court 3rd floor, Gymnastics team/training 4th floor. It will be an excellent multi-use bldg, which is Much needed. It will be fully funded privately up front (via pledges and donations up front). Yes it will be expensive - cost to be $100M+- and the land swap/ donation return will help start the financial commitment. Rather than fret over the cost, Cal athletic supporters should be happy to have a long time desired and needed multi-use facility. While fundraising is an ongoing process, The AD dept is confident the needed funds will be raised. Hopefully Cal alums will donate/contribute to a facility that the coaches and student athletes will greatly benefit from. For the detractors or skeptics, there is currently nothing on the site which means the problems both basketball programs face are not being answered until this Facility is built. The additional benefits are also very important to address efficient weight training time/space/ full team use at one time, nutrition needs and other program space needs. Embrace the efforts being put forth, the quality and direct impact to multiple programs and the appreciation the student athletes, coaches and future recruits will experience.
eastcoastcal
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4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
The AD is not overestimating the interest/need and financial support. To be clear this will be More than a basketball facility. This multi use facility will be four floors. Current plans call for with weight training/nutrition/ support rooms - first floor, Men's basketball court on the 2nd floor, Women's basketball court 3rd floor, Gymnastics team/training 4th floor. It will be an excellent multi-use bldg, which is Much needed. It will be fully funded privately up front (via pledges and donations up front). Yes it will be expensive - cost to be $100M+- and the land swap/ donation return will help start the financial commitment. Rather than fret over the cost, Cal athletic supporters should be happy to have a long time desired and needed multi-use facility. While fundraising is an ongoing process, The AD dept is confident the needed funds will be raised. Hopefully Cal alums will donate/contribute to a facility that the coaches and student athletes will greatly benefit from. For the detractors or skeptics, there is currently nothing on the site which means the problems both basketball programs face are not being answered until this Facility is built. The additional benefits are also very important to address efficient weight training time/space/ full team use at one time, nutrition needs and other program space needs. Embrace the efforts being put forth, the quality and direct impact to multiple programs and the appreciation the student athletes, coaches and future recruits will experience.
I like the plans. It sounds cool. But Knowlton told me he just spent 4 years raising 8 million dollars for a gender equity campaign. I really doubt there are that many donors willing to line up to donate substantially for WBB/Volleyball/Gymnastics (to be clear, love those programs, just stating the obvious that there's not a huge amount of donor money begging to be allocated there). So that leaves the bulk of the heavy lifting to the MBB program. And I'll defer to you and those who've been around the program for longer, but when I look at the state of the program, I couldn't imagine 8-10 people who would sign 10 million dollar checks for it.

I really hope Knowlton raises the money. Seriously I do. But if this falls short then he's a ****ing idiot and he'll have wasted several years & millions of athletics dollars pursuing this project to no avail. and then I seriously don't want to hear any more qualifications or defenses of him because he somehow managed to land a decade-long contract despite overseeing the WORST power-5 FB + MBB program in the nation by combined win % over the last 5 years. And will have badly miscalculated in the hires of Mark Fox, horribly overpaid to extend Justin Wilcox, and have stood by when approached with the criminal-level allegations brought forward by McKeever's athletes. So forgive me if I am a little hesitant to trust that he will raise necessary funds
4thGenCal
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4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
The AD is not overestimating the interest/need and financial support. To be clear this will be More than a basketball facility. This multi use facility will be four floors. Current plans call for with weight training/nutrition/ support rooms - first floor, Men's basketball court on the 2nd floor, Women's basketball court 3rd floor, Gymnastics team/training 4th floor. It will be an excellent multi-use bldg, which is Much needed. It will be fully funded privately up front (via pledges and donations up front). Yes it will be expensive - cost to be $100M+- and the land swap/ donation return will help start the financial commitment. Rather than fret over the cost, Cal athletic supporters should be happy to have a long time desired and needed multi-use facility. While fundraising is an ongoing process, The AD dept is confident the needed funds will be raised. Hopefully Cal alums will donate/contribute to a facility that the coaches and student athletes will greatly benefit from. For the detractors or skeptics, there is currently nothing on the site which means the problems both basketball programs face are not being answered until this Facility is built. The additional benefits are also very important to address efficient weight training time/space/ full team use at one time, nutrition needs and other program space needs. Embrace the efforts being put forth, the quality and direct impact to multiple programs and the appreciation the student athletes, coaches and future recruits will experience.
I like the plans. It sounds cool. But Knowlton told me he just spent 4 years raising 8 million dollars for a gender equity campaign. I really doubt there are that many donors willing to line up to donate substantially for WBB/Volleyball/Gymnastics (to be clear, love those programs, just stating the obvious that there's not a huge amount of donor money begging to be allocated there). So that leaves the bulk of the heavy lifting to the MBB program. And I'll defer to you and those who've been around the program for longer, but when I look at the state of the program, I couldn't imagine 8-10 people who would sign 10 million dollar checks for it.

I really hope Knowlton raises the money. Seriously I do. But if this falls short then he's a ****ing idiot and he'll have wasted several years & millions of athletics dollars pursuing this project to no avail. and then I seriously don't want to hear any more qualifications or defenses of him because he somehow managed to land a decade-long contract despite overseeing the WORST power-5 FB + MBB program in the nation by combined win % over the last 5 years. And will have badly miscalculated in the hires of Mark Fox, horribly overpaid to extend Justin Wilcox, and have stood by when approached with the criminal-level allegations brought forward by McKeever's athletes. So forgive me if I am a little hesitant to trust that he will raise necessary funds

The updates that I share, are for the general posters etc - and to hopefully enlighten positive events/developments of Cal Athletics. Not a supporter or critic of Jim Knowlton, but so you are clear, this is not "wasting several years and millions of dollars" - pursuing the project at this point - Gross exaggeration. The AD/staff are not working full time/resources on this sole project - (32 sports and budgets to balance - which requires extremely long time commitments spread around). To throw out a statement "that if he fails etc" then he is a _____" is bizarre. Most Cal alums/supporters appreciate the daunting effort to gain the necessary campus committee approvals, get support from the Chancellor and address a Huge pressing need that multiple programs are fervantly pushing for. This is a project that will have immediate positive impact for Student Athletes at Cal and address the needs of better training, improved nutrition programs/availability (having a current $90 weekend food card for use at 6-7 restaurants does not measure up to what is offered at our conference programs). Let's see how this plays out and best to hold off on giving a grade, when the "class/project" is in its relatively early stages. Final point, there are people interested in donating substantial dollars to support a much needed multi use facility.
I remain confident this will get done, and built within the next 4 - 4 1/2 years. Go Bears!
Big C
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I am categorically for this project (and if I had the $$,$$$,$$$, I would be a foundational donor). That said, to me, it's about recruiting and "keeping up with the Joneses". Sorry to sound politically incorrect, but I really only care about two Cal sports: Football and Men's Basketball. All Cal sports are able to practice and train. I don't care if they lack "country club" facilities. IMO, this is about optics for recruiting. Sure, I want gymnastics and volleyball and all that to flourish, in a perfect world. But the real reason I'm willing to let them into this is because we have to do it to get the men's basketball facility.

The arms race for college football and basketball is kind of absurd, but I'm clinging to "my Golden Bears" nonetheless.

Preserving the fantasy.
eastcoastcal
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4thGenCal said:

4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
The AD is not overestimating the interest/need and financial support. To be clear this will be More than a basketball facility. This multi use facility will be four floors. Current plans call for with weight training/nutrition/ support rooms - first floor, Men's basketball court on the 2nd floor, Women's basketball court 3rd floor, Gymnastics team/training 4th floor. It will be an excellent multi-use bldg, which is Much needed. It will be fully funded privately up front (via pledges and donations up front). Yes it will be expensive - cost to be $100M+- and the land swap/ donation return will help start the financial commitment. Rather than fret over the cost, Cal athletic supporters should be happy to have a long time desired and needed multi-use facility. While fundraising is an ongoing process, The AD dept is confident the needed funds will be raised. Hopefully Cal alums will donate/contribute to a facility that the coaches and student athletes will greatly benefit from. For the detractors or skeptics, there is currently nothing on the site which means the problems both basketball programs face are not being answered until this Facility is built. The additional benefits are also very important to address efficient weight training time/space/ full team use at one time, nutrition needs and other program space needs. Embrace the efforts being put forth, the quality and direct impact to multiple programs and the appreciation the student athletes, coaches and future recruits will experience.
I like the plans. It sounds cool. But Knowlton told me he just spent 4 years raising 8 million dollars for a gender equity campaign. I really doubt there are that many donors willing to line up to donate substantially for WBB/Volleyball/Gymnastics (to be clear, love those programs, just stating the obvious that there's not a huge amount of donor money begging to be allocated there). So that leaves the bulk of the heavy lifting to the MBB program. And I'll defer to you and those who've been around the program for longer, but when I look at the state of the program, I couldn't imagine 8-10 people who would sign 10 million dollar checks for it.

I really hope Knowlton raises the money. Seriously I do. But if this falls short then he's a ****ing idiot and he'll have wasted several years & millions of athletics dollars pursuing this project to no avail. and then I seriously don't want to hear any more qualifications or defenses of him because he somehow managed to land a decade-long contract despite overseeing the WORST power-5 FB + MBB program in the nation by combined win % over the last 5 years. And will have badly miscalculated in the hires of Mark Fox, horribly overpaid to extend Justin Wilcox, and have stood by when approached with the criminal-level allegations brought forward by McKeever's athletes. So forgive me if I am a little hesitant to trust that he will raise necessary funds

The updates that I share, are for the general posters etc - and to hopefully enlighten positive events/developments of Cal Athletics. Not a supporter or critic of Jim Knowlton, but so you are clear, this is not "wasting several years and millions of dollars" - pursuing the project at this point - Gross exaggeration. The AD/staff are not working full time/resources on this sole project - (32 sports and budgets to balance - which requires extremely long time commitments spread around). To throw out a statement "that if he fails etc" then he is a _____" is bizarre. Most Cal alums/supporters appreciate the daunting effort to gain the necessary campus committee approvals, get support from the Chancellor and address a Huge pressing need that multiple programs are fervantly pushing for. This is a project that will have immediate positive impact for Student Athletes at Cal and address the needs of better training, improved nutrition programs/availability (having a current $90 weekend food card for use at 6-7 restaurants does not measure up to what is offered at our conference programs). Let's see how this plays out and best to hold off on giving a grade, when the "class/project" is in its relatively early stages. Final point, there are people interested in donating substantial dollars to support a much needed multi use facility.
I remain confident this will get done, and built within the next 4 - 4 1/2 years. Go Bears!
I am so appreciative of your efforts. And I do appreciate your positive disposition-- but your assessment that this is not a substantive time-sink nor money-sink is in direct conflict with what Knowlton told me. He was adamant that he'd be "up early in the morning" and "late to sleep" in order to consistently meet, pitch, and sell these donors on the facility. He was clear it was his top priority in the near future. Also I assume there are legal counsel, regulatory, & architectural monies associated with the process uptil this point- are you to say that these have totaled only in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Additionally, to be clear I am not suggesting he will be a failure if he does not get this through. He is already a failure in my eyes (and most peoples). The Fox hire was disastrous, the Wilcox extension was unprecedented and foolish (will refrain from saying disastrous as it is too early but returns are looking that way), and the McKeever handling was morally inept, bordering on criminal. Of course, if he hits a home run with the next basketball coach and manages to secure the donation money, perhaps he'll redeem himself from a failure to a serviceable AD. I am simply saying he's a failure and a loser (not calling him names, we literally lose a lot) at this point in his tenure.

Finally, don't conflate my concerns with Knowlton for me taking issue with the facility itself. It sounds super cool and I would love for our program to have it. However sometimes I feel that you and other high-ranking donors experience a phenomenon where you are able to internally excuse our losing / defend the people who run our operations because you are too close to it all- you view the detractors of Cal (admissions, NIL, facilities, CoB, donor interest, fan apathy) as insurmountable or at the very least valid excuses for the losing we experience. Unless you really believe we have the worst situation here in Berkeley out of all 65 power-5 teams, our detractors just don't add up to the level of losing we have here.

I hope you are right that we get this done in the next 4-4.5 years. As always, truly appreciative of your efforts. Go Bears!
4thGenCal
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eastcoastcal said:

4thGenCal said:

4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

4thGenCal said:

eastcoastcal said:

I hope Knowlton isn't overestimating interest... 125M or 80M is a lot of money. I'd be surprised if we find 8-12 eight-figure donors for this thing. I hope Knowlton is a better salesman than he is a hirer

Because if the funding falls short thats many years down the drain AGAIN. This would put us at one of, maybe the most, expensive basketball practice facilities in the nation (yes there's a couple other sports but still)
The AD is not overestimating the interest/need and financial support. To be clear this will be More than a basketball facility. This multi use facility will be four floors. Current plans call for with weight training/nutrition/ support rooms - first floor, Men's basketball court on the 2nd floor, Women's basketball court 3rd floor, Gymnastics team/training 4th floor. It will be an excellent multi-use bldg, which is Much needed. It will be fully funded privately up front (via pledges and donations up front). Yes it will be expensive - cost to be $100M+- and the land swap/ donation return will help start the financial commitment. Rather than fret over the cost, Cal athletic supporters should be happy to have a long time desired and needed multi-use facility. While fundraising is an ongoing process, The AD dept is confident the needed funds will be raised. Hopefully Cal alums will donate/contribute to a facility that the coaches and student athletes will greatly benefit from. For the detractors or skeptics, there is currently nothing on the site which means the problems both basketball programs face are not being answered until this Facility is built. The additional benefits are also very important to address efficient weight training time/space/ full team use at one time, nutrition needs and other program space needs. Embrace the efforts being put forth, the quality and direct impact to multiple programs and the appreciation the student athletes, coaches and future recruits will experience.
I like the plans. It sounds cool. But Knowlton told me he just spent 4 years raising 8 million dollars for a gender equity campaign. I really doubt there are that many donors willing to line up to donate substantially for WBB/Volleyball/Gymnastics (to be clear, love those programs, just stating the obvious that there's not a huge amount of donor money begging to be allocated there). So that leaves the bulk of the heavy lifting to the MBB program. And I'll defer to you and those who've been around the program for longer, but when I look at the state of the program, I couldn't imagine 8-10 people who would sign 10 million dollar checks for it.

I really hope Knowlton raises the money. Seriously I do. But if this falls short then he's a ****ing idiot and he'll have wasted several years & millions of athletics dollars pursuing this project to no avail. and then I seriously don't want to hear any more qualifications or defenses of him because he somehow managed to land a decade-long contract despite overseeing the WORST power-5 FB + MBB program in the nation by combined win % over the last 5 years. And will have badly miscalculated in the hires of Mark Fox, horribly overpaid to extend Justin Wilcox, and have stood by when approached with the criminal-level allegations brought forward by McKeever's athletes. So forgive me if I am a little hesitant to trust that he will raise necessary funds

The updates that I share, are for the general posters etc - and to hopefully enlighten positive events/developments of Cal Athletics. Not a supporter or critic of Jim Knowlton, but so you are clear, this is not "wasting several years and millions of dollars" - pursuing the project at this point - Gross exaggeration. The AD/staff are not working full time/resources on this sole project - (32 sports and budgets to balance - which requires extremely long time commitments spread around). To throw out a statement "that if he fails etc" then he is a _____" is bizarre. Most Cal alums/supporters appreciate the daunting effort to gain the necessary campus committee approvals, get support from the Chancellor and address a Huge pressing need that multiple programs are fervantly pushing for. This is a project that will have immediate positive impact for Student Athletes at Cal and address the needs of better training, improved nutrition programs/availability (having a current $90 weekend food card for use at 6-7 restaurants does not measure up to what is offered at our conference programs). Let's see how this plays out and best to hold off on giving a grade, when the "class/project" is in its relatively early stages. Final point, there are people interested in donating substantial dollars to support a much needed multi use facility.
I remain confident this will get done, and built within the next 4 - 4 1/2 years. Go Bears!
I am so appreciative of your efforts. And I do appreciate your positive disposition-- but your assessment that this is not a substantive time-sink nor money-sink is in direct conflict with what Knowlton told me. He was adamant that he'd be "up early in the morning" and "late to sleep" in order to consistently meet, pitch, and sell these donors on the facility. He was clear it was his top priority in the near future. Also I assume there are legal counsel, regulatory, & architectural monies associated with the process uptil this point- are you to say that these have totaled only in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Additionally, to be clear I am not suggesting he will be a failure if he does not get this through. He is already a failure in my eyes (and most peoples). The Fox hire was disastrous, the Wilcox extension was unprecedented and foolish (will refrain from saying disastrous as it is too early but returns are looking that way), and the McKeever handling was morally inept, bordering on criminal. Of course, if he hits a home run with the next basketball coach and manages to secure the donation money, perhaps he'll redeem himself from a failure to a serviceable AD. I am simply saying he's a failure and a loser (not calling him names, we literally lose a lot) at this point in his tenure.

Finally, don't conflate my concerns with Knowlton for me taking issue with the facility itself. It sounds super cool and I would love for our program to have it. However sometimes I feel that you and other high-ranking donors experience a phenomenon where you are able to internally excuse our losing / defend the people who run our operations because you are too close to it all- you view the detractors of Cal (admissions, NIL, facilities, CoB, donor interest, fan apathy) as insurmountable or at the very least valid excuses for the losing we experience. Unless you really believe we have the worst situation here in Berkeley out of all 65 power-5 teams, our detractors just don't add up to the level of losing we have here.

I hope you are right that we get this done in the next 4-4.5 years. As always, truly appreciative of your efforts. Go Bears!
I mostly enjoy the banter(other than impulsive/crass comments) and thoughts of passionate Cal supporters on this message board. Its just an outlet to comment and feel the various opinions of our 2 major sports. I was a tennis player at Cal and frankly those non revenue sports don't matter. The reason I stay loyal and support the key programs (along with many others) is that I do believe Cal will right the losing ways of the past decade+ in football and also bball (save the #4 seed in MM season and Monty's conf title season further back). Its in my blood and I enjoy supporting an institution, that played a very positive role in preparing me for adult life and the challenges associated with one's growth. My main satisfaction is serving as a mentor if asked by the impressive Student Athletes at Cal. However to be clear, I certainly do not accept/excuse our losing in these two key sports. I do point out to the casual poster, that Cal does have inherent obstacles that are greater than the majority of not only our conference members, but also when compared to the top 50+ programs nationally. However to me, winning is the ultimate scorecard. I do believe Wilcox will turn around the program as the foundation is finally in place - not this season, but starting next season and when that happens, it will be pointed out
Jeff82
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4thGenCal, can you comment on the attitude of the large donor base, to the extent you're aware, to the idea of support 32 sports, as Knowlton wants to do, versus other posters on this board, who basically are only interested in football and basketball?

There are clearly donors, such as the Goldmans, who are only going to donate to the AD, and to the campus more generally, if they are allowed to support their preferred sport (aquatics). I get the feeling that the approach to the new facility is based on the assumption that you would actually lose donors overall by cutting sports, as opposed to maintaining them.

Am I right in thinking that is still the case? What happened when Sandy proposed cuts certainly implies that, but I don't know if the recent struggles with football and basketball have changed the mood at all.

Thanks.
uplandbear
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Tell me you know little about modern cbb without telling me you know little about modern college basketball...Do you understand that Cal is the ONLY school in the p12 without a dedicated practice facility? This aint 2010 anymore dude, teams have continuously recruited against Cal citing facilities and as someone who has worked directly with the MBB team. I promise you facilities matter in D1 cbb recruiting. There are over 60 mid majors with dedicated on-campus practice facilities.

This didnt hurt Cal in the Braun/Montgomery years because only about half of the conference had their own MBB facilities and very little mid majors had their own facility. Fast forward 15 years and this is no longer the case. Knowlton/Christ decided to run the MBB team on the cheap while the AD tried to balance our budget. The outcome: a crappy product that rarely wins and roster that is devoid of top end talent. Thanks fault line!
calumnus
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uplandbear said:

Tell me you know little about modern cbb without telling me you know little about modern college basketball...Do you understand that Cal is the ONLY school in the p12 without a dedicated practice facility? This aint 2010 anymore dude, teams have continuously recruited against Cal citing facilities and as someone who has worked directly with the MBB team. I promise you facilities matter in D1 cbb recruiting. There are over 60 mid majors with dedicated on-campus practice facilities.

This didnt hurt Cal in the Braun/Montgomery years because only about half of the conference had their own MBB facilities and very little mid majors had their own facility. Fast forward 15 years and this is no longer the case. Knowlton/Christ decided to run the MBB team on the cheap while the AD tried to balance our budget. The outcome: a crappy product that rarely wins and roster that is devoid of top end talent. Thanks fault line!


What about the Martin and even Jones eras? We recruited very well then.

It is now the NIL era. If instead of spending $120 million on a practice facility we put that in a fund that generated 5% or $6 million per year. We could pay 6 players $1 million each per year.

Since you are close to the players, ask them what would they would prefer:

A) a really nice $120 million dedicated practice facility

B) continue to practice at Haas and the RSF but get $1 million cash every year.

The facility won't even be done until 2025 or 2026 at best. Are we really supposed to keep Fox until then just to see if the practice facility will help him?


dimitrig
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calumnus said:

uplandbear said:

Tell me you know little about modern cbb without telling me you know little about modern college basketball...Do you understand that Cal is the ONLY school in the p12 without a dedicated practice facility? This aint 2010 anymore dude, teams have continuously recruited against Cal citing facilities and as someone who has worked directly with the MBB team. I promise you facilities matter in D1 cbb recruiting. There are over 60 mid majors with dedicated on-campus practice facilities.

This didnt hurt Cal in the Braun/Montgomery years because only about half of the conference had their own MBB facilities and very little mid majors had their own facility. Fast forward 15 years and this is no longer the case. Knowlton/Christ decided to run the MBB team on the cheap while the AD tried to balance our budget. The outcome: a crappy product that rarely wins and roster that is devoid of top end talent. Thanks fault line!


What about the Martin and even Jones eras? We recruited very well then.

It is now the NIL era. If instead of spending $120 million on a practice facility we put that in a fund that generated 5% or $6 million per year. We could pay 6 players $1 million each per year.

Since you are close to the players, ask them what would they would prefer:

A) a really nice $120 million dedicated practice facility

B) continue to practice at Haas and the RSF but get $1 million cash every year.

The facility won't even be done until 2025 or 2026 at best. Are we really supposed to keep Fox until then just to see if the practice facility will help him?




Agree. If we need a practice facility to check off a box somewhere then let's build one cheap, but spending big money on one is stupid. It's a new era and building a practice facility seems like it will help the program about as much as our new football facilities have.
eastcoastcal
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I really, really agree that the practice facility is not going to move the needle much. I get the idea, and appreciate that it would help several sports, but in todays world every recruit will go for 250k over 50k and a practice facility.

As mentioned before many of these recruits are from lower income households. This money can really help their families. If I had a vote at the table I would encourage Knowlton to raise 30M, put it in a fund with lets say 5% return, use the 1.5M generated every year to pay our top 5 rotation guys (or 10, idc) 300k+. That puts us in the top of the nation immediately.

We can play around all day but this move would turn our program around immediately. It might seem crass or weird to ask donors to buy in on this but I'm willing to bet it would be easier to raise 30M and tell donors this puts us at the top of the nation and can take our program to immediate relevancy, vs raise 120M trying to sell donors on a frankly solid practice facility that doesn't differentiate us at all.

Let's not fight the previous war, let's win the future one
4thGenCal
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dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

uplandbear said:

Tell me you know little about modern cbb without telling me you know little about modern college basketball...Do you understand that Cal is the ONLY school in the p12 without a dedicated practice facility? This aint 2010 anymore dude, teams have continuously recruited against Cal citing facilities and as someone who has worked directly with the MBB team. I promise you facilities matter in D1 cbb recruiting. There are over 60 mid majors with dedicated on-campus practice facilities.

This didnt hurt Cal in the Braun/Montgomery years because only about half of the conference had their own MBB facilities and very little mid majors had their own facility. Fast forward 15 years and this is no longer the case. Knowlton/Christ decided to run the MBB team on the cheap while the AD tried to balance our budget. The outcome: a crappy product that rarely wins and roster that is devoid of top end talent. Thanks fault line!


What about the Martin and even Jones eras? We recruited very well then.

It is now the NIL era. If instead of spending $120 million on a practice facility we put that in a fund that generated 5% or $6 million per year. We could pay 6 players $1 million each per year.

Since you are close to the players, ask them what would they would prefer:

A) a really nice $120 million dedicated practice facility

B) continue to practice at Haas and the RSF but get $1 million cash every year.

The facility won't even be done until 2025 or 2026 at best. Are we really supposed to keep Fox until then just to see if the practice facility will help him?




Agree. If we need a practice facility to check off a box somewhere then let's build one cheap, but spending big money on one is stupid. It's a new era and building a practice facility seems like it will help the program about as much as our new football facilities have.

As covered in detail in earlier threads, there is not a "cheap way" to build, that addresses the needs. Costs have skyrocketed as described in detail. The practice facility only gets approved via multiple use benefits and gender equality/use etc. Thus the facility design (that was successfully presented and approved with many required campus committee's) had to include use for additional sports (gymnastics, volleyball, women's bball) along with very much needed improved weight training facilities, nutruition areas etc). The new facility provides ongoing use for a wide range student athletes. Easy to critique and say just raise same amount ($100M is the target to build the facility) and give the monies out to players via fund annual returns etc. Its a pipe dream to think people would donate Anywhere close to that amount to be given out to student athletes. Just look to the amount raised for NIL at Cal ($700k thus far and that is a struggle) A needed practice facility would annually benefit multiple programs, demonstrate a commitment to men's and women's hoops(recruiting need) and have ongoing yearly value/use.
Shocky1
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only flaw in the practice facility architectural renderings is that it's never ever gonna get built, this is knowlton''s $125,000,000 snow castle for quidditch, etc.

too bad cal don't got an athletic director like andrew mcgraw who got the credibility as a berkeley grad & 26 years of campus relationships to sell this as a modestly priced men's & women's basketball practice facility that meets title ix statues that will try to accommodate other sports when possible...instead we got a dumb azz decision to pursue something that's politically expedient but that never gonna happen & then jim retires in 2029

i talk to as many people as you do, there's no donor will to get this built...none
socaliganbear
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4thGenCal said:

dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

uplandbear said:

Tell me you know little about modern cbb without telling me you know little about modern college basketball...Do you understand that Cal is the ONLY school in the p12 without a dedicated practice facility? This aint 2010 anymore dude, teams have continuously recruited against Cal citing facilities and as someone who has worked directly with the MBB team. I promise you facilities matter in D1 cbb recruiting. There are over 60 mid majors with dedicated on-campus practice facilities.

This didnt hurt Cal in the Braun/Montgomery years because only about half of the conference had their own MBB facilities and very little mid majors had their own facility. Fast forward 15 years and this is no longer the case. Knowlton/Christ decided to run the MBB team on the cheap while the AD tried to balance our budget. The outcome: a crappy product that rarely wins and roster that is devoid of top end talent. Thanks fault line!


What about the Martin and even Jones eras? We recruited very well then.

It is now the NIL era. If instead of spending $120 million on a practice facility we put that in a fund that generated 5% or $6 million per year. We could pay 6 players $1 million each per year.

Since you are close to the players, ask them what would they would prefer:

A) a really nice $120 million dedicated practice facility

B) continue to practice at Haas and the RSF but get $1 million cash every year.

The facility won't even be done until 2025 or 2026 at best. Are we really supposed to keep Fox until then just to see if the practice facility will help him?




Agree. If we need a practice facility to check off a box somewhere then let's build one cheap, but spending big money on one is stupid. It's a new era and building a practice facility seems like it will help the program about as much as our new football facilities have.

As covered in detail in earlier threads, there is not a "cheap way" to build, that addresses the needs. Costs have skyrocketed as described in detail. The practice facility only gets approved via multiple use benefits and gender equality/use etc. Thus the facility design (that was successfully presented and approved with many required campus committee's) had to include use for additional sports (gymnastics, volleyball, women's bball) along with very much needed improved weight training facilities, nutruition areas etc). The new facility provides ongoing use for a wide range student athletes. Easy to critique and say just raise same amount ($100M is the target to build the facility) and give the monies out to players via fund annual returns etc. Its a pipe dream to think people would donate Anywhere close to that amount to be given out to student athletes. Just look to the amount raised for NIL at Cal ($700k thus far and that is a struggle) A needed practice facility would annually benefit multiple programs, demonstrate a commitment to men's and women's hoops(recruiting need) and have ongoing yearly value/use.


Which families are dropping lead gifts and when? Seems like a pie in the sky fantasy.
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