MoragaBear said:

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calumnus said:

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https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2022/11/01/what-makes-justice-sueing-ohio-state-basketball-best-player/69605967007/

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The answer isn't based on anything he's done at OSU, where he's been injured a lot of the time and scoring and rebounding less there when he's played than he did at Cal.

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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Clearly, going from a bad Cal team where he might have been their best offensive player to a stacked team that earned a 2-seed in the tournament would mean that his raw numbers would suffer without really detracting from his ability. But as calumnus said, a key glue guy who has shown more offense in his previous situation at Cal could easily be the best player on a very good team based on his experience and his ability to do so much on the court.

And the local newspaper's ranking may be a bit of a projection, based on experience and his shown ability to be a jack-of-all-trades on the court. At the same time, this was a key player that Fox failed to re-recruit back to the team, and a tremendous loss to the team and the program.

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Exactly. Matt Bradley's numbers went down his first year at San Diego State. Andre Kelly's numbers will likely go down at UCSB.

Justice Sueing LOVED Cal, being from Hawaii, a great student, committed to social Justice (as his father named and taught him) he loved the university, the location. the student body and our history of activism. That is why he and Jaylen Brown bonded. He, like Jaylen, is the ideal Cal student athlete attracted to our university, location and progressive reputation and he was already enrolled, Pac-12 all academic, already our best player. He just did not like Mark Fox and his authoritarian, egocentric, taskmaster (I am going to make you work harder than…) approach. That is why he transferred.

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CalLifer said:

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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Clearly, going from a bad Cal team where he might have been their best offensive player to a stacked team that earned a 2-seed in the tournament would mean that his raw numbers would suffer without really detracting from his ability. But as calumnus said, a key glue guy who has shown more offense in his previous situation at Cal could easily be the best player on a very good team based on his experience and his ability to do so much on the court.

And the local newspaper's ranking may be a bit of a projection, based on experience and his shown ability to be a jack-of-all-trades on the court. At the same time, this was a key player that Fox failed to re-recruit back to the team, and a tremendous loss to the team and the program.

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Exactly. Matt Bradley's numbers went down his first year at San Diego State. Andre Kelly's numbers will likely go down at UCSB.

Justice Sueing LOVED Cal, being from Hawaii, a great student, committed to social Justice (as his father named and taught him) he loved the university, the location. the student body and our history of activism. That is why he and Jaylen Brown bonded. He, like Jaylen, is the ideal Cal student athlete attracted to our university, location and progressive reputation and he was already enrolled, Pac-12 all academic, already our best player. He just did not like Mark Fox and his authoritarian, egocentric, taskmaster (I am going to make you work harder than…) approach. That is why he transferred.

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Geez, I didn't know all of that about Sueing. It just makes the decision to go with Fox that much worse. I don't know why I keep coming back here to learn more about all of the repercussions of the bad decisions Knowlton has made, but I do, and it seems like every day I learn something that makes it worse.

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SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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Clearly, going from a bad Cal team where he might have been their best offensive player to a stacked team that earned a 2-seed in the tournament would mean that his raw numbers would suffer without really detracting from his ability. But as calumnus said, a key glue guy who has shown more offense in his previous situation at Cal could easily be the best player on a very good team based on his experience and his ability to do so much on the court.

And the local newspaper's ranking may be a bit of a projection, based on experience and his shown ability to be a jack-of-all-trades on the court. At the same time, this was a key player that Fox failed to re-recruit back to the team, and a tremendous loss to the team and the program.

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Exactly. Matt Bradley's numbers went down his first year at San Diego State. Andre Kelly's numbers will likely go down at UCSB.

Justice Sueing LOVED Cal, being from Hawaii, a great student, committed to social Justice (as his father named and taught him) he loved the university, the location. the student body and our history of activism. That is why he and Jaylen Brown bonded. He, like Jaylen, is the ideal Cal student athlete attracted to our university, location and progressive reputation and he was already enrolled, Pac-12 all academic, already our best player. He was just completely turned off by Mark Fox and his authoritarian, egocentric, taskmaster (I am going to make you work harder than…) approach. That is why he transferred.

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Can you prove anything you are now saying about Mark Fox? Where is your evidence he is "authoritarian"? I think you confuse being authoritarian with love. A coach's deep affection for his players, wanting sincerely to teach them to be the best they can be, to teach them to bond and be successful together as a team. Where is your evidence that he is egocentric? He seems shy to a fault, to me. And finally, where is your evidence that Sueing transferred because Fox was "authoritarian, egocentric" and ever said "I am going to make you work harder than..." or has such an approach?

And by the way, how to you know that Mark Fox has not bought into "social justice", "progressivism", and "activism"? In this day and age, do you think that UC Berkeley would hire a coach for their sports who was not aware, tolerant, and even in favor of these ideas?

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SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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calumnus said:

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CalLifer said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Hi numbers went down from 13.8 pts and 5.4 reb and 14.3 pts and 6.0 reb his first two years here to 10.7 pts and 5.5 reb his jr year at OSU playing a full season. Cal would certainly be a better team with him still here but I doubt he's their best player this season. Maybe if he's back at full health and it gives his game a good boost

Just saying calling him their best or most important players seems to be a bit of projection.

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Clearly, going from a bad Cal team where he might have been their best offensive player to a stacked team that earned a 2-seed in the tournament would mean that his raw numbers would suffer without really detracting from his ability. But as calumnus said, a key glue guy who has shown more offense in his previous situation at Cal could easily be the best player on a very good team based on his experience and his ability to do so much on the court.

And the local newspaper's ranking may be a bit of a projection, based on experience and his shown ability to be a jack-of-all-trades on the court. At the same time, this was a key player that Fox failed to re-recruit back to the team, and a tremendous loss to the team and the program.

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Exactly. Matt Bradley's numbers went down his first year at San Diego State. Andre Kelly's numbers will likely go down at UCSB.

Justice Sueing LOVED Cal, being from Hawaii, a great student, committed to social Justice (as his father named and taught him) he loved the university, the location. the student body and our history of activism. That is why he and Jaylen Brown bonded. He, like Jaylen, is the ideal Cal student athlete attracted to our university, location and progressive reputation and he was already enrolled, Pac-12 all academic, already our best player. He just did not like Mark Fox and his authoritarian, egocentric, taskmaster (I am going to make you work harder than…) approach. That is why he transferred.

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Geez, I didn't know all of that about Sueing. It just makes the decision to go with Fox that much worse. I don't know why I keep coming back here to learn more about all of the repercussions of the bad decisions Knowlton has made, but I do, and it seems like every day I learn something that makes it worse.

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Screamers, authoritarian disciplinarians are a bad fit for the West Coast (or someone from Hawaii) and today's generation, but especially for Berkeley and smart Cal students. It just goes against our comparative advantages ability to get great players from the Bay Area and LA plus guys like Jaylen and Shareef out of Atlanta.

Fox has no doubt found and recruited players, mostly from outside of the country, with relatively less basketball background, who never would have played at this level, who will accept it, even gladly, in return for a great education and a chance to play in the PAC-12. However, it will leave Cal FAR below our potential, losing ALOT of games.

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It is becoming clear that you may have started this thread with a post praising Justice Sueing, but then you turned the thread into trying to spread your increasing dislike of Mark Fox, the person. This has become a character assassination, and I sincerely plead with you to cease and desist from these attacks. The facts are these: Mark Fox has had a poor and losing record at Cal. He has not recruited highly talented players. If it were not for two years government lockdowns, and a roster with the above average number of injured players, many schools, and maybe Cal, would have fired him for failing to produce, unless his buyout would cost too much. I beg you to stick to the facts. Judge him as a coach, on his record not his personality, and please don't fabricate facts or present hearsay, first or 2nd hand.

We all saw Fox scream at a ref, after opposing coach Bobby Hurley had gone on a tirade that seemed like it would never end. Maybe Fox felt he should get equal time, I don't know. I saw Fox yell at Jalen Celestine to get his attention on two occasions as I remember, but that was during a game in Haas, where it is noisy to begin with. Sometimes a coach has to raise his voice. That doesn't make him a "screaming authoritarian disciplinarian". Have you ever seen him at practice? That is the best place to judge whether he is what you say he is. If a coach has crossed the line between coach showing passion and interest in his players and their success, into "authoritarian disciplinarian", you will see it at practice. My feeling is you won't, because players would not show as much joy as they are showing now for this coach.

As for today's generation, it is a generation more spoiled, coddled, and less respectful of coaches, teachers, parents and most adults than any in my lifetime. Their parents begin at the earliest, bringing them to school, picking them up after school, and bringing them to after school activities, and back home again. Will cell phones, they are in constant contact with their children. They never let them out on the streets. The streets, the outside world, is where situations and problems arise, and these kids need to get out there and learn how to handle bad stuff that sometimes happens away from home and school. They never get to learn how to be self-reliant until later in life, which may be too late.

As for recruiting these great players to Cal, how long were Jaylen and Shareef at Cal? One year each. A cup of coffee, and they flew the coop. Neither one was part of a team that won anything. Both were on teams with a load of what would be Top 100 players. Jalen's team with Rabb, Bird, Wallace, Mathews, and Domingo finished 3rd in the PAC12, and lost to Hawaii in the 1st round of the NCAA mostly due to injuries. Shareef's team with Ed Gray, Tremaine Fowlkes, Yogi Stewart, Al Grigsby, Sean Marks, Randy Duck, Jelani Gardner, Prentice McGruder finished in 5th Place in the PAC10. They lost to Iowa State in the 1st Round of the NCAA, with Shareef held to 7 points and no starter scored in double figures. There is no guarantee whatever that the highest ranked recruits can bring much success to Cal or any other team. You need a lot of players and a good coach, in most years.

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