Southern: my first game back in Haas in a long time

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SFCityBear
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I went to my first game in person in about 2 years. Now I can better appreciate the comments from everyone about Mark Fox and the program. There is nothing like seeing a game in person. I sat down low, behind the North basket. The Cal bench and Mark Fox were right in front of me on the right. TV is OK, and streaming less so, with all the freezing in mid-action. Here is my take:

Southern: First of all, Southern is a very veteran team, much more so than Cal. Southern started 3 grad transfers, a senior, and a redshirt senior. They basically went with a 6-man rotation, with another senior, Allen, off the bench. So they had a big edge in maturity in this game. Southern is a very short team, with the main rotation averaging only 6'-3". Cal's main 7-man rotation averaged 6'-7", giving Cal a huge edge in size.
Southern's tallest player in the rotation was 6-7. They have two 6-9 players, but neither played in the game. Cal outrebounded Southern, which is the first game that we have won the rebound battle.

Southern came into this game without a win this year, like Cal, but they should not be taken lightly. They lost to UNLV, but UNLV also has beaten #21 Dayton. Southern also lost to #17 Arizona. With all those veterans, all that quickness, and a good coach, I expect them to perform well in their conference.

You could tell at the outset that Southern's entire roster was faster and quicker than Cal. In the last few years I don't think I've seen an opponent that had a player faster and quicker than Joel Brown, but Southern's players all seem to be as quick as Brown. With their quickness, Southern was able to neutralize Cal's height advantage, and I think that was the difference in the game, along with Southern's veteran lineup and better coaching. Their two guards just torched us, Whitley with 18 points and 3 steals, 4/8 on 3s, and Byrd with 13 pts, 9 assists , 4 rebs, 8/8 FTs. Cal probably focused on Southern's leading scorer, Etienne, averaging 15 points, and held him to 10. Southern changed defenses often from man to zone, and disguised it well.

Offensively, Cal looked like a high school team. Too much one on one play, especially from Askew. Askew took forever trying to make a play. He may have some speed but not enough, as he wastes so much time dribbling the ball. He reminded me of the freshman and sophomore Ayinde Ubaka, who used to dribble forever without going anywhere. Askew tries to put his hand under the ball when he is trying to change direction or hands, and that makes him even slower. And he shoots too much. He nearly shot Cal out of the game in the first half, by missing most of his shots. Several were not even close, just barely grazing the rim. In the 2nd half he drained most of his shots. They looked pure. He is not a dependable shooter. I'm not impressed with his passing. Clayton is still injured, and did not play. His career stats as a point guard are better than either Askew or Brown, but in a lesser conference. If he is any good, I'd like to see him at point guard. Askew has too many habits to change, for my taste. He's a two guard.

Fox tried Lars in the high post in the first half, with the usual results. I can't see any purpose in that. He is 6" taller than their tallest player, and we station him 15 feet from the basket? Fox changed the offense in the second half, placing Lars in a low post. We sat about 15 feet from the basket, and watched Lars drop numerous passes and rebounds. Up close, he appears to softly grasp the ball. Sometimes he looked like he was already thinking about what to do with the ball and then dropped it before he caught it. His reflexes are very slow. Still the improvement in his shooting skills is terrific. He has 2 or 3 shots he can use with either hand, and he can make them facing the basket or with his back to the basket. His FT stroke has really improved. He made one really surprising shot. He had gone up for a rebound, and when he finally got hold of the ball, he was about 6 or 7 feet from the basket on the left side. His defender had position, so Lars could not shoot with his right hand. He turned his body to protect the ball from the defender, and then went up and made a sweet jump shot off the glass with his LEFT hand. He never had that shot before.

I think Lars needs more strength in his arms and hands. I used to have a coach, Harry Pitkoff, who played for the old Philadelphia Sphas of the Eastern Pro League, which eventually became the NBA. Pitkoff told us how the players' salaries were so low, that they had to work other jobs to make a living. He said the Sphas paid him for every rebound he got, so he believed a rebound was his bread and butter. He told us to think like that, to grab that ball and protect it like it meant more to you than anything. Lars needs to aggressively snatch that ball and hold on to it with his life.

I was impressed with Roberson. He sticks to his man like glue, he's fairly fast, and has a little bit of offense. Alajiki made some threes, so maybe he has his stroke back. He brings great energy, so maybe he is best off the bench. He has to learn better control in the paint. Newell did not have a good game, and made freshman mistakes, but he still looks like he might develop into something. Okafor only played 8 minutes, so I could not say anything about him. I did not see anything remarkable about Kuany, Brown, Bowser, Newell, etc.

As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.

The players on the bench do not appear to be having much fun, and the losses are piling up on them. There was moment when Monty Bowser was taken out of the game after playing only a minute or two. He came back to the bench, went down the line, shaking hands with each teammate. Before he sat down, one of the team managers handed Monty a bottle of water. Monty took a swipe at the bottle and slapped it out of the manager's hand. It rolled along the floor behind the bench, and the manager had to go over and pick it up. Monty said nothing. I've never seen a player do anything like this in a game. Very immature behavior, and probably insulting to the manager. Whether this is attributable to the frustration of being quickly pulled from a game, or whether it is due to the climate Mark Fox creates, or the losing games, or all of it, I couldn't guess. I sure wish I could see a Mark Fox team practice. I like tough coaches, but I think if you have to dress down a player, you need to do it at practice and not in a game. Fox did not do any of that in this game, but the sour looks and gestures might be enough to get a player angry himself. Fox needs to get control of this team soon, or he will lose them. If he does not, or gets too demonstrative, he may be gone before season's end.




SFCityBear
JimSox
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You had a coach who played for the Sphas? Wow! I've heard about them. The South Philadelphia Hebrew Association. Back when basketball was in great part a Jewish game. I never hear the Sphas mentioned in lore about the history of the Warriors. But I believe that was the team that eventually morphed into the Philadelphia (now Golden State) Warriors.
AlohaBear
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Great post! Appreciate the insight. Go Bears!
oskidunker
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SFCityBear said:

I went to my first game in person in about 2 years. Now I can better appreciate the comments from everyone about Mark Fox and the program. There is nothing like seeing a game in person. I sat down low, behind the North basket. The Cal bench and Mark Fox were right in front of me on the right. TV is OK, and streaming less so, with all the freezing in mid-action. Here is my take:

Southern: First of all, Southern is a very veteran team, much more so than Cal. Southern started 3 grad transfers, a senior, and a redshirt senior. They basically went with a 6-man rotation, with another senior, Allen, off the bench. So they had a big edge in maturity in this game. Southern is a very short team, with the main rotation averaging only 6'-3". Cal's main 7-man rotation averaged 6'-7", giving Cal a huge edge in size.
Southern's tallest player in the rotation was 6-7. They have two 6-9 players, but neither played in the game. Cal outrebounded Southern, which is the first game that we have won the rebound battle.

Southern came into this game without a win this year, like Cal, but they should not be taken lightly. They lost to UNLV, but UNLV also has beaten #21 Dayton. Southern also lost to #17 Arizona. With all those veterans, all that quickness, and a good coach, I expect them to perform well in their conference.

You could tell at the outset that Southern's entire roster was faster and quicker than Cal. In the last few years I don't think I've seen an opponent that had a player faster and quicker than Joel Brown, but Southern's players all seem to be as quick as Brown. With their quickness, Southern was able to neutralize Cal's height advantage, and I think that was the difference in the game, along with Southern's veteran lineup and better coaching. Their two guards just torched us, Whitley with 18 points and 3 steals, 4/8 on 3s, and Byrd with 13 pts, 9 assists , 4 rebs, 8/8 FTs. Cal probably focused on Southern's leading scorer, Etienne, averaging 15 points, and held him to 10. Southern changed defenses often from man to zone, and disguised it well.

Offensively, Cal looked like a high school team. Too much one on one play, especially from Askew. Askew took forever trying to make a play. He may have some speed but not enough, as he wastes so much time dribbling the ball. He reminded me of the freshman and sophomore Ayinde Ubaka, who used to dribble forever without going anywhere. Askew tries to put his hand under the ball when he is trying to change direction or hands, and that makes him even slower. And he shoots too much. He nearly shot Cal out of the game in the first half, by missing most of his shots. Several were not even close, just barely grazing the rim. In the 2nd half he drained most of his shots. They looked pure. He is not a dependable shooter. I'm not impressed with his passing. Clayton is still injured, and did not play. His career stats as a point guard are better than either Askew or Brown, but in a lesser conference. If he is any good, I'd like to see him at point guard. Askew has too many habits to change, for my taste. He's a two guard.

Fox tried Lars in the high post in the first half, with the usual results. I can't see any purpose in that. He is 6" taller than their tallest player, and we station him 15 feet from the basket? Fox changed the offense in the second half, placing Lars in a low post. We sat about 15 feet from the basket, and watched Lars drop numerous passes and rebounds. Up close, he appears to softly grasp the ball. Sometimes he looked like he was already thinking about what to do with the ball and then dropped it before he caught it. His reflexes are very slow. Still the improvement in his shooting skills is terrific. He has 2 or 3 shots he can use with either hand, and he can make them facing the basket or with his back to the basket. His FT stroke has really improved. He made one really surprising shot. He had gone up for a rebound, and when he finally got hold of the ball, he was about 6 or 7 feet from the basket on the left side. His defender had position, so Lars could not shoot with his right hand. He turned his body to protect the ball from the defender, and then went up and made a sweet jump shot off the glass with his LEFT hand. He never had that shot before.

I think Lars needs more strength in his arms and hands. I used to have a coach, Harry Pitkoff, who played for the old Philadelphia Sphas of the Eastern Pro League, which eventually became the NBA. Pitkoff told us how the players' salaries were so low, that they had to work other jobs to make a living. He said the Sphas paid him for every rebound he got, so he believed a rebound was his bread and butter. He told us to think like that, to grab that ball and protect it like it meant more to you than anything. Lars needs to aggressively snatch that ball and hold on to it with his life.

I was impressed with Roberson. He sticks to his man like glue, he's fairly fast, and has a little bit of offense. Alajiki made some threes, so maybe he has his stroke back. He brings great energy, so maybe he is best off the bench. He has to learn better control in the paint. Newell did not have a good game, and made freshman mistakes, but he still looks like he might develop into something. Okafor only played 8 minutes, so I could not say anything about him. I did not see anything remarkable about Kuany, Brown, Bowser, Newell, etc.

As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.

The players on the bench do not appear to be having much fun, and the losses are piling up on them. There was moment when Monty Bowser was taken out of the game after playing only a minute or two. He came back to the bench, went down the line, shaking hands with each teammate. Before he sat down, one of the team managers handed Monty a bottle of water. Monty took a swipe at the bottle and slapped it out of the manager's hand. It rolled along the floor behind the bench, and the manager had to go over and pick it up. Monty said nothing. I've never seen a player do anything like this in a game. Very immature behavior, and probably insulting to the manager. Whether this is attributable to the frustration of being quickly pulled from a game, or whether it is due to the climate Mark Fox creates, or the losing games, or all of it, I couldn't guess. I sure wish I could see a Mark Fox team practice. I like tough coaches, but I think if you have to dress down a player, you need to do it at practice and not in a game. Fox did not do any of that in this game, but the sour looks and gestures might be enough to get a player angry himself. Fox needs to get control of this team soon, or he will lose them. If he does not, or gets too demonstrative, he may be gone before season's end.





Askew does not impress meand he is nowhere as goodas Shepard.not going tonight. Needa break from this ineptitude.
Go Bears!
Civil Bear
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Is there a game tonight?
HearstMining
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Good points, SFCB (largely because they mirror my thoughts, heh, heh) but I will disagree with one comment. You said Cal looks like a high school team but I can tell you that even though most of my high school playing was on JV, we knew how to: use weak-side screens, look for the rolling screener on a ball-screen, go back-door when the defender overplayed. etc. As far as your other observations:
  • As you say, Lars in the high post isn't doing the team any good. There are no cutters for him to pass to and if he passes to the corner for a 3, the shooter generally misses and Lars is completely out of rebounding position.
  • I would take your comment about Lars holding rebounds more aggressively one step further and suggest that, when a defender grabs for the ball, he needs to catch the guy in the chops with a forearm. You can do this without doing major damage. We all learned how to do this on the playground. It's worth a foul or two and will help him down the road.
  • Your comment about Askew carrying the ball is interesting. You're right that he does it to such an extreme that it actually slows him down. In fact, I think the Cal team as a whole moves better when Brown is running the point.
  • The fact that Askew hit his 3's when Cal was pretty much out of the game is an indicator that he's too tense. Maybe he came to Cal because Fox told him he'd be "the guy" but now it's too much pressure. And yes, he's not an adept passer.
bluesaxe
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SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.
KoreAmBear
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bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.
You mean this guy whose team is 5-0? I know they haven't played anyone, but they are beating teams they should beat, unlike us.

https://mutigers.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule/2022-23
calumnus
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bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.


Agreed, but it is not like he is new to coaching. This has been on full display for 20 years, including the last 4. It is who he is. Monty coukd be snarly, but at least Monty was also a great basketball mind, a gifted teacher of the game and was smart enough to delegate to calm and positive Travis DeCuire more and more of the interacting with the players in practice and in games. Fox is both unpleasant and an autocrat, an authoritarian.

When I have brought it up in the past, especially because of its impact on recruiting or losing players to the transfer portal I have been accused of "character assassination" and "having an agenda" been told the that it played "zero factor" in any transfer, even one where there is video evidence and where I heard from a parent (indirectly) that it did… it is the emperor's new clothes, it is plainly on display every game, every interview, every post game, but his defenders kept saying "the players love him and have no problem with it….he even invited the team over (to the huge house we are paying for) for a BBQ."

As I have said many times since the shock of hearing Knowlton had hired him, he is just a really bad hire, a bad fit fot the 21st century, the portal era and especially for the PAC-12 and especially for Cal student athletes.

My loyalty is to the players, guys like Sueing, Bradley and Kelly, who wanted to be at Cal, signed up when we were bad, loved Cal despite the losing, but couldn't take any more from the guy we pay $1.9 million a year, supposedly for their benefit.

bearister
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SFCB, I have always thought you are the best hoop analyst on the board. You are a Hoop Sage like Mose was a Jazz Sage.



*My son played in the DLS program for a couple of years. The Alloccos yanked you from the game the very second you made a mistake. They also substituted by platoon where they yanked all 5 out at the same time. Their act aged out. It was as close to being in the military my son got (Thank God). It was negative reinforcement coaching squared. Not for p@ussies, that's for sure.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Gunga la Gunga
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No offense, but seems like an autopsy of a dissected frog.
going4roses
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This is clearly your lane.

Gives depth into who you are.

We have differences in perspective/ understanding (clearly lol) but when it comes to the game Naismith created you know your ish .

Respect
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
stu
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Thanks SFCityBear for your objective and informative post. I'm too upset to post anything beyond snark.
SFCityBear
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Thanks for all the love. I never expected this. We are all in this together, for a common goal. There are several posters at least, who know more basketball than I do, especially about modern basketball, of say, the last 20 years or so, and I've learned a lot about basketball from all of you and others on this board. I learn something new here just about every day that I read this forum.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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HearstMining said:

Good points, SFCB (largely because they mirror my thoughts, heh, heh) but I will disagree with one comment. You said Cal looks like a high school team but I can tell you that even though most of my high school playing was on JV, we knew how to: use weak-side screens, look for the rolling screener on a ball-screen, go back-door when the defender overplayed. etc. As far as your other observations:
  • As you say, Lars in the high post isn't doing the team any good. There are no cutters for him to pass to and if he passes to the corner for a 3, the shooter generally misses and Lars is completely out of rebounding position.
  • I would take your comment about Lars holding rebounds more aggressively one step further and suggest that, when a defender grabs for the ball, he needs to catch the guy in the chops with a forearm. You can do this without doing major damage. We all learned how to do this on the playground. It's worth a foul or two and will help him down the road.
  • Your comment about Askew carrying the ball is interesting. You're right that he does it to such an extreme that it actually slows him down. In fact, I think the Cal team as a whole moves better when Brown is running the point.
  • The fact that Askew hit his 3's when Cal was pretty much out of the game is an indicator that he's too tense. Maybe he came to Cal because Fox told him he'd be "the guy" but now it's too much pressure. And yes, he's not an adept passer.

I agree. My comment about us looking like a high school team was entirely based on just watching the player who is probably our best player, and how he seems to always have the ball in his hands and is at the center of almost every play, either dribbling, shooting, or trying to pass for an assist. Lots of high school teams have one good player, and that is often how they play. Ursa Major used to say that it is not always the point guard who makes the pass for an assist, and that the pass to a teammate who will make the pass for an assist is also very important. If Fox/Askew could get other players involved in a play to be the one making that final pass for the assist, that would be better basketball. At the moment, opponents know that if they can hold Askew and Lars down, then the rest of the Cal team could never score enough to beat them. They need to find ways to use Askew and Lars as decoys, so others can score more points. I liked what I saw tonight vs Texas State from Alajiki and from Bowser, as possible scoring options.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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bearister said:

SFCB, I have always thought you are the best hoop analyst on the board. You are a Hoop Sage like Mose was a Jazz Sage.



*My son played in the DLS program for a couple of years. The Alloccos yanked you from the game the very second you made a mistake. They also substituted by platoon where they yanked all 5 out at the same time. Their act aged out. It was as close to being in the military my son got (Thank God). It was negative reinforcement coaching squared. Not for p@ussies, that's for sure.
There are good authoritarian coaches and bad ones. Both types will yank a player from the game and communicate to the player what he did wrong, and even show a temper with the colorful language. It is done to get the player's attention. The difference between the good authoritarian and the bad, is that the good coach (read Bobby Knight or coach K, etc) will put the player right back into the game. This shows how much he cares about the player and his play, and has the confidence in him that he will not repeat the mistake.

Do you remember the 1975 Warriors who won the NBA Championship? The first string was mostly veterans, and the second string was mostly rookies or marginal players they had picked up. In the first few games, Coach Attles would get so disgusted with his players, who were not playing good defense, and were playing too slow. He pulled all five players at once several times. Rick Barry was the team's best player, so Attles decided to leave Rick on the floor, and pull the other starters. Then he alternated pulling all 5 players with sometimes pulling just 4. The tactic worked. When the Warriors fell far behind, Attles would pull the veterans, and the young players coming in would run the other team out of the arena. About 3/4 of the way through the season, the sportswriters began giving Attles credit for coming up with a new ingenious strategy, when in fact, Attles was not a great coach, he had just gotten so disgusted with his veterans, that he yanked them. When the young 2nd unit got in trouble, maybe not shooting well, or making mistakes, then Attles would put the veterans back in, and they would take the team across the finish line.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.


Agreed, but it is not like he is new to coaching. This has been on full display for 20 years, including the last 4. It is who he is. Monty coukd be snarly, but at least Monty was also a great basketball mind, a gifted teacher of the game and was smart enough to delegate to calm and positive Travis DeCuire more and more of the interacting with the players in practice and in games. Fox is both unpleasant and an autocrat, an authoritarian.

When I have brought it up in the past, especially because of its impact on recruiting or losing players to the transfer portal I have been accused of "character assassination" and "having an agenda" been told the that it played "zero factor" in any transfer, even one where there is video evidence and where I heard from a parent (indirectly) that it did… it is the emperor's new clothes, it is plainly on display every game, every interview, every post game, but his defenders kept saying "the players love him and have no problem with it….he even invited the team over (to the huge house we are paying for) for a BBQ."

As I have said many times since the shock of hearing Knowlton had hired him, he is just a really bad hire, a bad fit fot the 21st century, the portal era and especially for the PAC-12 and especially for Cal student athletes.

My loyalty is to the players, guys like Sueing, Bradley and Kelly, who wanted to be at Cal, signed up when we were bad, loved Cal despite the losing, but couldn't take any more from the guy we pay $1.9 million a year, supposedly for their benefit.


Sueing never played for Fox. There was a post the other day where it was reported that Sueing was leaving anyway, before he met Fox. Bradley had a hot temper, even in high school, and he and Fox clashed some, with Fox benching or suspending him a game once for breaking a rule (or maybe that was Wyking suspending Coleman). But as I remember, Fox's team was getting hard to handle at one point, and Bradley told them to get together and play the way Fox wanted. I think Bradley left because he was interested in his personal success hoping it would lead to the NBA. Kelly said when he left that he too was interested in the NBA, but also Cal had no graduate program which was appropriate for him, or one in his field which would accept him. I have no criticism of Fox over Kelly leaving. I don't think any player owes a team more than 4 years of his blood, sweat, and tears. Wouldn't you want to try a different experience after giving 4 years to a school? I doubt that there are many who do stay 5 years at one school.
SFCityBear
calumnus
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bearister
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The Alloccos were good coaches. Their teams went a long way and often they didn't have the best players. The best players wanted no part of the Princeton Offense where the combined score was usually under a 100 points.

Time simply passed their philosophy by.


*Their program turned out extremely fundamentally sound players. Theo had talent and fundamentals (a lethal combination), but Conor Famulener, Brandon Smith, Jeff Powers and Beau Levesque (St. Mary's) got by on their mastery of fundamentals.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
going4roses
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cal83dls79
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Talking X's and O's as the program is disintegrating is an exercise in futility. Where Lars is or isn't on the court is truly the least of our worries right now and just mental masturbation. Read the quote from Randle. Brought tears to my eyes to think of how this once proud team has gone to complete hell. Why this coach isn't fired now is really incomprehensible.
HearstMining
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cal83dls79 said:

Talking X's and O's as the program is disintegrating is an exercise in futility. Where Lars is or isn't on the court is truly the least of our worries right now and just mental masturbation. Read the quote from Randle. Brought tears to my eyes to think of how this once proud team has gone to complete hell. Why this coach isn't fired now is really incomprehensible.
Mental masturbation is one term. I prefer to think of it as whistling past the graveyard.
calumnus
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cal83dls79 said:

Talking X's and O's as the program is disintegrating is an exercise in futility. Where Lars is or isn't on the court is truly the least of our worries right now and just mental masturbation. Read the quote from Randle. Brought tears to my eyes to think of how this once proud team has gone to complete hell. Why this coach isn't fired now is really incomprehensible.


This has just been a slow, four year very predictable train wreck.
4thGenCal
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SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.


Agreed, but it is not like he is new to coaching. This has been on full display for 20 years, including the last 4. It is who he is. Monty coukd be snarly, but at least Monty was also a great basketball mind, a gifted teacher of the game and was smart enough to delegate to calm and positive Travis DeCuire more and more of the interacting with the players in practice and in games. Fox is both unpleasant and an autocrat, an authoritarian.

When I have brought it up in the past, especially because of its impact on recruiting or losing players to the transfer portal I have been accused of "character assassination" and "having an agenda" been told the that it played "zero factor" in any transfer, even one where there is video evidence and where I heard from a parent (indirectly) that it did… it is the emperor's new clothes, it is plainly on display every game, every interview, every post game, but his defenders kept saying "the players love him and have no problem with it….he even invited the team over (to the huge house we are paying for) for a BBQ."

As I have said many times since the shock of hearing Knowlton had hired him, he is just a really bad hire, a bad fit fot the 21st century, the portal era and especially for the PAC-12 and especially for Cal student athletes.

My loyalty is to the players, guys like Sueing, Bradley and Kelly, who wanted to be at Cal, signed up when we were bad, loved Cal despite the losing, but couldn't take any more from the guy we pay $1.9 million a year, supposedly for their benefit.


Sueing never played for Fox. There was a post the other day where it was reported that Sueing was leaving anyway, before he met Fox. Bradley had a hot temper, even in high school, and he and Fox clashed some, with Fox benching or suspending him a game once for breaking a rule (or maybe that was Wyking suspending Coleman). But as I remember, Fox's team was getting hard to handle at one point, and Bradley told them to get together and play the way Fox wanted. I think Bradley left because he was interested in his personal success hoping it would lead to the NBA. Kelly said when he left that he too was interested in the NBA, but also Cal had no graduate program which was appropriate for him, or one in his field which would accept him. I have no criticism of Fox over Kelly leaving. I don't think any player owes a team more than 4 years of his blood, sweat, and tears. Wouldn't you want to try a different experience after giving 4 years to a school? I doubt that there are many who do stay 5 years at one school.
Accurate/informative posts on many topics - thank you. I am not a Fox/staff supporter and hope for change, though short of a team revolt, midseason change would be surprising. Sueling had cleared out his locker, had notified his leaving the program before meeting Fox. The video (though ineffective/poor presentation by Fox) had no bearing on a decision already made) Vanover was gone instantly when WJ was fired due to their close relationship. Matt Bradley leaving I put squarely on Fox - having conversations with Matt, He would have stayed if Fox had shown him that He was wanted and where His game specifically could be improved. The spin by the staff that the majority of players wanted Matt gone, was a cover their butt defense. Matt regularly calls the guys He played with on the team and its a mutually respectful bond. First question He said to Me at the Stanford/SDS game, was "what is the score of Cal game, hope Cal gets the win" when Cal was also playing UCSD that night. Guy is a solid, passionate young man who was a very good representative to the University as well as being on his way (had he stayed) to be the All Time Scorer in Cal hoops history. Only guy who could create and take late shot clock attempts and brought toughness and passion that we have not seen since. Andre leaving was not Fox fault. Fox actually worked behind the scenes with a couple of coaches to help get AK a post season conf selection. AK respected Fox, though He was frustrated that His position was in his mind limited and did not allow him to develop additional skills needed for the next level. AK is also a genuine solid character guy who frankly needs to be pushed to reach his potential. Cardio has been and will be an issue He will need to constantly battle. We miss him greatly as at least 3 games thus far would be a win. AK likes his new coach,(whom He and His Dad liked very much during recruiting initially) His role and frankly the positive vibes of a supportive playing atmosphere at the Thunder Dome. We desperately need a new staff to thus get back the crowd and vocal support through bringing in skilled players.
eastcoastcal
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4thGenCal said:

SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.


Agreed, but it is not like he is new to coaching. This has been on full display for 20 years, including the last 4. It is who he is. Monty coukd be snarly, but at least Monty was also a great basketball mind, a gifted teacher of the game and was smart enough to delegate to calm and positive Travis DeCuire more and more of the interacting with the players in practice and in games. Fox is both unpleasant and an autocrat, an authoritarian.

When I have brought it up in the past, especially because of its impact on recruiting or losing players to the transfer portal I have been accused of "character assassination" and "having an agenda" been told the that it played "zero factor" in any transfer, even one where there is video evidence and where I heard from a parent (indirectly) that it did… it is the emperor's new clothes, it is plainly on display every game, every interview, every post game, but his defenders kept saying "the players love him and have no problem with it….he even invited the team over (to the huge house we are paying for) for a BBQ."

As I have said many times since the shock of hearing Knowlton had hired him, he is just a really bad hire, a bad fit fot the 21st century, the portal era and especially for the PAC-12 and especially for Cal student athletes.

My loyalty is to the players, guys like Sueing, Bradley and Kelly, who wanted to be at Cal, signed up when we were bad, loved Cal despite the losing, but couldn't take any more from the guy we pay $1.9 million a year, supposedly for their benefit.


Sueing never played for Fox. There was a post the other day where it was reported that Sueing was leaving anyway, before he met Fox. Bradley had a hot temper, even in high school, and he and Fox clashed some, with Fox benching or suspending him a game once for breaking a rule (or maybe that was Wyking suspending Coleman). But as I remember, Fox's team was getting hard to handle at one point, and Bradley told them to get together and play the way Fox wanted. I think Bradley left because he was interested in his personal success hoping it would lead to the NBA. Kelly said when he left that he too was interested in the NBA, but also Cal had no graduate program which was appropriate for him, or one in his field which would accept him. I have no criticism of Fox over Kelly leaving. I don't think any player owes a team more than 4 years of his blood, sweat, and tears. Wouldn't you want to try a different experience after giving 4 years to a school? I doubt that there are many who do stay 5 years at one school.
Accurate/informative posts on many topics - thank you. I am not a Fox/staff supporter and hope for change, though short of a team revolt, midseason change would be surprising. Sueling had cleared out his locker, had notified his leaving the program before meeting Fox. The video (though ineffective/poor presentation by Fox) had no bearing on a decision already made) Vanover was gone instantly when WJ was fired due to their close relationship. Matt Bradley leaving I put squarely on Fox - having conversations with Matt, He would have stayed if Fox had shown him that He was wanted and where His game specifically could be improved. The spin by the staff that the majority of players wanted Matt gone, was a cover their butt defense. Matt regularly calls the guys He played with on the team and its a mutually respectful bond. First question He said to Me at the Stanford/SDS game, was "what is the score of Cal game, hope Cal gets the win" when Cal was also playing UCSD that night. Guy is a solid, passionate young man who was a very good representative to the University as well as being on his way (had he stayed) to be the All Time Scorer in Cal hoops history. Only guy who could create and take late shot clock attempts and brought toughness and passion that we have not seen since. Andre leaving was not Fox fault. Fox actually worked behind the scenes with a couple of coaches to help get AK a post season conf selection. AK respected Fox, though He was frustrated that His position was in his mind limited and did not allow him to develop additional skills needed for the next level. AK is also a genuine solid character guy who frankly needs to be pushed to reach his potential. Cardio has been and will be an issue He will need to constantly battle. We miss him greatly as at least 3 games thus far would be a win. AK likes his new coach,(whom He and His Dad liked very much during recruiting initially) His role and frankly the positive vibes of a supportive playing atmosphere at the Thunder Dome. We desperately need a new staff to thus get back the crowd and vocal support through bringing in skilled players.
4thGen really what this begs the question is why has the staff not changed? Isn't it true Fox has kept the same staff his entire tenure here?
BC Calfan
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4thGenCal said:


I am not a Fox/staff supporter and hope for change, though short of a team revolt, midseason change would be surprising.
Well this quote from the only program insider on this board ruined my day.

Thanks 4thGen, you're Most Valuable Poster for me!
cal83dls79
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With all due respect to 4th:
Reminds me of Jim Mora but substitute "playoffs" with "staff".
Starts at the top and moreover the results.
HoopDreams
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4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
4thGenCal
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HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
Totally agree with your thoughts. Couldn't believe that Fox did not attempt to re recruit Matt. Still bothers me. yes Matt acted temperamental in practice (kicked out a couple of times but one was in response to Foreman talking trash to him when he dropped a 3 on him)), cussed out one assistant (staff member with prior HC experience) and had a emotional breakdown during halftime of one game where He verbally lost it. But that goes on at nearly all programs in various degrees. Andre, Jalen, Joel, Jared all said that stuff would be forgotten after practice. Wyking did not have any problems with Matt and frankly Matt wanted to win far more than individual awards. Neither Fox or His assistants initiated a follow on visit to Matt's home during the post season break. It was left to Matt to agree to follow guidelines that the staff set for him. Losing Matt did hold Cal back from finishing much higher in the conference. Its the HC responsibility to forge a respectful relationship and create a positive team work.
Big C
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HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control

Responding to the emboldened above: Yeah, I wish players like Kuany Kuany and Joel Brown had ever had a "tightly controlled role and parameters". Instead, they have been wandering around the court on offense with seemingly no known role or purpose every season and now this is their fourth year in the program. When you would watch a player progress in Mike Montgomery's system, they would start out with a limited role, tailored to their abilities... and build on that each year. Here we have two players with, okay some limitations but also some God-given talents and they haven't had the coaching to develop those talents.

It's been painful to watch the Bears try to operate on offense this season -- there seems to be no rhyme or reason or system and that has to be the last straw for a coach who has always underperformed at many aspects of the job, but "supposedly" could coach basketball.

I hate to be the umpteenth poster to call our coach to task (it just gets to be a downer to hear the same thing over and over again), but Good God, look at those guys out there.
calumnus
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4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
Totally agree with your thoughts. Couldn't believe that Fox did not attempt to re recruit Matt. Still bothers me. yes Matt acted temperamental in practice (kicked out a couple of times but one was in response to Foreman talking trash to him when he dropped a 3 on him)), cussed out one assistant (staff member with prior HC experience) and had a emotional breakdown during halftime of one game where He verbally lost it. But that goes on at nearly all programs in various degrees. Andre, Jalen, Joel, Jared all said that stuff would be forgotten after practice. Wyking did not have any problems with Matt and frankly Matt wanted to win far more than individual awards. Neither Fox or His assistants initiated a follow on visit to Matt's home during the post season break. It was left to Matt to agree to follow guidelines that the staff set for him. Losing Matt did hold Cal back from finishing much higher in the conference. Its the HC responsibility to forge a respectful relationship and create a positive team work.


Mathews is a dead eye shooter, but cannot create his own shot. His greatest value is with a coach like Monty or Few that has a very structured, efficient offense with off the ball picks to set up shooters like Mathews for open shots.

I don't know what else was involved, but to me, that was really the fundamental issue. Mathews is a really smart guy, his dad is a coach. Few knew he would shine at Gonzaga in his offense (and defense, which relies more on playing smart than "hard."). Mathews was a bad fit for a coach like Martin (or Fox) that prefer more athletic players even if less skilled.
HoopDreams
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calumnus said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
Totally agree with your thoughts. Couldn't believe that Fox did not attempt to re recruit Matt. Still bothers me. yes Matt acted temperamental in practice (kicked out a couple of times but one was in response to Foreman talking trash to him when he dropped a 3 on him)), cussed out one assistant (staff member with prior HC experience) and had a emotional breakdown during halftime of one game where He verbally lost it. But that goes on at nearly all programs in various degrees. Andre, Jalen, Joel, Jared all said that stuff would be forgotten after practice. Wyking did not have any problems with Matt and frankly Matt wanted to win far more than individual awards. Neither Fox or His assistants initiated a follow on visit to Matt's home during the post season break. It was left to Matt to agree to follow guidelines that the staff set for him. Losing Matt did hold Cal back from finishing much higher in the conference. Its the HC responsibility to forge a respectful relationship and create a positive team work.


Mathews is a dead eye shooter, but cannot create his own shot. His greatest value is with a coach like Monty or Few that has a very structured, efficient offense with off the ball picks to set up shooters like Mathews for open shots.

I don't know what else was involved, but to me, that was really the fundamental issue. Mathews is a really smart guy, his dad is a coach. Few knew he would shine at Gonzaga in his offense (and defense, which relies more on playing smart than "hard."). Mathews was a bad fit for a coach like Martin (or Fox) that prefer more athletic players even if less skilled.
Don't agree with most of this. Martin used that team wrong. We had slashers, Jaylen and Wallace, shooters (bird and Jordan), bigs Ivan and a serviceable King. With that starting line up we should have had elite offense, but we didn't use our shooters enough. Any good coach should have run more actions to get those shooters more shots

And Martin knew Jordan's brother wanted to come to cal too (who was also longer and more athletic)

Martin also mis-used Ivan, but that may have been a function of not having a great passing PG

The one pass I give Martin Is that team lacked depth. After sixth man Singer there was a huge drop off

With that said, if Wallace and bird been healthy Cal would have made it to the sweet sixteen or higher. Even if we only had Wallace we would have beat Hawaii as he would have been able to handle their PG, unlike Chaucer who got trashed when singer went out with early fouls

calumnus
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HoopDreams said:

calumnus said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
Totally agree with your thoughts. Couldn't believe that Fox did not attempt to re recruit Matt. Still bothers me. yes Matt acted temperamental in practice (kicked out a couple of times but one was in response to Foreman talking trash to him when he dropped a 3 on him)), cussed out one assistant (staff member with prior HC experience) and had a emotional breakdown during halftime of one game where He verbally lost it. But that goes on at nearly all programs in various degrees. Andre, Jalen, Joel, Jared all said that stuff would be forgotten after practice. Wyking did not have any problems with Matt and frankly Matt wanted to win far more than individual awards. Neither Fox or His assistants initiated a follow on visit to Matt's home during the post season break. It was left to Matt to agree to follow guidelines that the staff set for him. Losing Matt did hold Cal back from finishing much higher in the conference. Its the HC responsibility to forge a respectful relationship and create a positive team work.


Mathews is a dead eye shooter, but cannot create his own shot. His greatest value is with a coach like Monty or Few that has a very structured, efficient offense with off the ball picks to set up shooters like Mathews for open shots.

I don't know what else was involved, but to me, that was really the fundamental issue. Mathews is a really smart guy, his dad is a coach. Few knew he would shine at Gonzaga in his offense (and defense, which relies more on playing smart than "hard."). Mathews was a bad fit for a coach like Martin (or Fox) that prefer more athletic players even if less skilled.
Don't agree with most of this. Martin used that team wrong. We had slashers, Jaylen and Wallace, shooters (bird and Jordan), bigs Ivan and a serviceable King. With that starting line up we should have had elite offense, but we didn't use our shooters enough. Any good coach should have run more actions to get those shooters more shots

And Martin knew Jordan's brother wanted to come to cal too (who was also longer and more athletic)

Martin also mis-used Ivan, but that may have been a function of not having a great passing PG

The one pass I give Martin Is that team lacked depth. After sixth man Singer there was a huge drop off

With that said, if Wallace and bird been healthy Cal would have made it to the sweet sixteen or higher. Even if we only had Wallace we would have beat Hawaii as he would have been able to handle their PG, unlike Chaucer who got trashed when singer went out with early fouls




So you agree that Mathews was not used well by Martin so he went to Gonzaga where Few made him a focal point of his offense?
HoopDreams
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yes

calumnus said:

HoopDreams said:

calumnus said:

4thGenCal said:

HoopDreams said:

4thGen

thanks for insider view of the player transfers

agree that sueing and vanover were already gone

but Matt leaving was an absolute disaster. i wrote before that a coach's number one priority is to keep their franchise player. its up to coach to smooth out what ever issues with the players, teammates, school, etc

Matt showed me he was a great representative of the team. coaches should want fiercely competitive players with lots of passion

its better to have a teams best player to lead and even send a harsh message to other players. its why i didn't have an issue with askew having some words with another player even when he didn't make the best decision on his pass

matt and kelly also had a good relationship and as the teams two best player that is an ideal situation

had matt returned we would have finally had a veteran team with talent which i felt was the formula for Cal's breakout success

and who knows, matt stayed at SDSU… maybe he would have stayed at cal too, and after a successful previous season (because he would have been here) kelly would have stayed akso plus we would have signed better recruits

one thing a coach should do to keep their franchise players (matt and kelly) is to let them play the way they want to play (within reason)

for example, at Matts size, maybe his future is at PG. let him spend time at the 1. kelly wanted to shoot from the 3 more. at his size this is very important for his future. give him the green light to do it.

fox views these things wrongly. he thinks to maximize wins you need to require players to play within a tightly control role and parameters. that's probably true for a inexperienced player or less capable player

but for a star player, the most important thing is to have them on your team

i was a big fan of Martin, but one of the worst mistakes was not making it work with matthews. if he stayed his talented brother would have also probably came to cal and that team would have made the ncaa

current situation has nothing to do with covid. injuries has impacted the team (especially celestine) but a big part of his recruiting strategy is to recruit talent that is under the radar due to ha injuries. that strategy carries risks which we are seeing now

fox is not the victim. these things were in his control
Totally agree with your thoughts. Couldn't believe that Fox did not attempt to re recruit Matt. Still bothers me. yes Matt acted temperamental in practice (kicked out a couple of times but one was in response to Foreman talking trash to him when he dropped a 3 on him)), cussed out one assistant (staff member with prior HC experience) and had a emotional breakdown during halftime of one game where He verbally lost it. But that goes on at nearly all programs in various degrees. Andre, Jalen, Joel, Jared all said that stuff would be forgotten after practice. Wyking did not have any problems with Matt and frankly Matt wanted to win far more than individual awards. Neither Fox or His assistants initiated a follow on visit to Matt's home during the post season break. It was left to Matt to agree to follow guidelines that the staff set for him. Losing Matt did hold Cal back from finishing much higher in the conference. Its the HC responsibility to forge a respectful relationship and create a positive team work.


Mathews is a dead eye shooter, but cannot create his own shot. His greatest value is with a coach like Monty or Few that has a very structured, efficient offense with off the ball picks to set up shooters like Mathews for open shots.

I don't know what else was involved, but to me, that was really the fundamental issue. Mathews is a really smart guy, his dad is a coach. Few knew he would shine at Gonzaga in his offense (and defense, which relies more on playing smart than "hard."). Mathews was a bad fit for a coach like Martin (or Fox) that prefer more athletic players even if less skilled.
Don't agree with most of this. Martin used that team wrong. We had slashers, Jaylen and Wallace, shooters (bird and Jordan), bigs Ivan and a serviceable King. With that starting line up we should have had elite offense, but we didn't use our shooters enough. Any good coach should have run more actions to get those shooters more shots

And Martin knew Jordan's brother wanted to come to cal too (who was also longer and more athletic)

Martin also mis-used Ivan, but that may have been a function of not having a great passing PG

The one pass I give Martin Is that team lacked depth. After sixth man Singer there was a huge drop off

With that said, if Wallace and bird been healthy Cal would have made it to the sweet sixteen or higher. Even if we only had Wallace we would have beat Hawaii as he would have been able to handle their PG, unlike Chaucer who got trashed when singer went out with early fouls




So you agree that Mathews was not used well by Martin so he went to Gonzaga where Few made him a focal point of his offense?
bluesaxe
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SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

SFCityBear said:



As to Fox, I went to the game with a high school teammate of mine, who is a psychiatrist. He and I differ a little on coaching styles, and he felt Fox is just too demonstrative during the game, with his facial expressions indicating displeasure or disgust with how the team was playing. Fox held his temper in check, but we could sense the frustration. The team just does not play together, seldom making cuts and screens, and losing the ball too much. From the beginning of the game almost, Fox was making substitutions rapid-fire, like he was trying to hard to find a combination that could do something right. I believe you have to let players play at the beginning of a game, to get the butterflies out, and Fox seemed a little frantic. Braun often used to pull a player with less than a minute into the game and it drove me nuts.







From day one I have hated Fox's sideline demeanor. Just like I hate his tendency to point fingers at his players after games. He's the opposite of what I would look for in a leader. There's no way playing for him would be fun. If he's frustrated, imagine what his players must be feeling. They're stuck with a coach who can't manage to organize them into any semblance of a team, who yells at them, yanks them for every mistake, stomps his feet, and never defends them to others. You say you like "tough" coaches. I'd say I hate fake tough coaches who yell a lot but can't even instill basic discipline on the court. Give me a guy who knows how to communicate with players any day over that.


Agreed, but it is not like he is new to coaching. This has been on full display for 20 years, including the last 4. It is who he is. Monty coukd be snarly, but at least Monty was also a great basketball mind, a gifted teacher of the game and was smart enough to delegate to calm and positive Travis DeCuire more and more of the interacting with the players in practice and in games. Fox is both unpleasant and an autocrat, an authoritarian.

When I have brought it up in the past, especially because of its impact on recruiting or losing players to the transfer portal I have been accused of "character assassination" and "having an agenda" been told the that it played "zero factor" in any transfer, even one where there is video evidence and where I heard from a parent (indirectly) that it did… it is the emperor's new clothes, it is plainly on display every game, every interview, every post game, but his defenders kept saying "the players love him and have no problem with it….he even invited the team over (to the huge house we are paying for) for a BBQ."

As I have said many times since the shock of hearing Knowlton had hired him, he is just a really bad hire, a bad fit fot the 21st century, the portal era and especially for the PAC-12 and especially for Cal student athletes.

My loyalty is to the players, guys like Sueing, Bradley and Kelly, who wanted to be at Cal, signed up when we were bad, loved Cal despite the losing, but couldn't take any more from the guy we pay $1.9 million a year, supposedly for their benefit.


Sueing never played for Fox. There was a post the other day where it was reported that Sueing was leaving anyway, before he met Fox. Bradley had a hot temper, even in high school, and he and Fox clashed some, with Fox benching or suspending him a game once for breaking a rule (or maybe that was Wyking suspending Coleman). But as I remember, Fox's team was getting hard to handle at one point, and Bradley told them to get together and play the way Fox wanted. I think Bradley left because he was interested in his personal success hoping it would lead to the NBA. Kelly said when he left that he too was interested in the NBA, but also Cal had no graduate program which was appropriate for him, or one in his field which would accept him. I have no criticism of Fox over Kelly leaving. I don't think any player owes a team more than 4 years of his blood, sweat, and tears. Wouldn't you want to try a different experience after giving 4 years to a school? I doubt that there are many who do stay 5 years at one school.
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