When Okafor is in the lineup our defense is so much better. More quickness, the other four players are able to be more aggressive because Okafor poses a shot blocking threat. Lars game would be better if he played fewer minutes.
Agreed. I was about to come here and start a thread that Okafor needs to start over Lars. Whatever plus Lars gives on offense is given back due to his poor hands. Okafor looks to have some game on both ends of the floor that just needs developing.RedlessWardrobe said:
When Okafor is in the lineup our defense is so much better. More quickness, the other four players are able to be more aggressive because Okafor poses a shot blocking threat. Lars game would be better if he played fewer minutes.
Civil Bear said:Agreed. I was about to come here and start a thread that Okafor needs to start over Lars. Whatever plus Lars gives on offense is given back due to his poor hands. Okafor looks to have some game on both ends of the floor that just needs developing.RedlessWardrobe said:
When Okafor is in the lineup our defense is so much better. More quickness, the other four players are able to be more aggressive because Okafor poses a shot blocking threat. Lars game would be better if he played fewer minutes.
Don't like to slam our players, but defensively Lars is such a liablity. We've won one game. This is the time to be giving Okafor as many minutes as possible. He is so much more athletic and alert than Lars. The team is more watchable with him in there. Time to make the move.Civil Bear said:Agreed. I was about to come here and start a thread that Okafor needs to start over Lars. Whatever plus Lars gives on offense is given back due to his poor hands. Okafor looks to have some game on both ends of the floor that just needs developing.RedlessWardrobe said:
When Okafor is in the lineup our defense is so much better. More quickness, the other four players are able to be more aggressive because Okafor poses a shot blocking threat. Lars game would be better if he played fewer minutes.
Someone please teach Okafor to use the glass on his layups. He seems to be hesitant about either going directly to the rim and slamming it or using glass. Just use glass (unless there is a clear path) it's a more reliable thing. He had a spin move yesterday that looked like he Ayton of Phoenix. Then he couldn't finish. He has a very projectable future.RedlessWardrobe said:Don't like to slam our players, but defensively Lars is such a liablity. We've won one game. This is the time to be giving Okafor as many minutes as possible. He is so much more athletic and alert than Lars. The team is more watchable with him in there. Time to make the move.Civil Bear said:Agreed. I was about to come here and start a thread that Okafor needs to start over Lars. Whatever plus Lars gives on offense is given back due to his poor hands. Okafor looks to have some game on both ends of the floor that just needs developing.RedlessWardrobe said:
When Okafor is in the lineup our defense is so much better. More quickness, the other four players are able to be more aggressive because Okafor poses a shot blocking threat. Lars game would be better if he played fewer minutes.
I'm guessing if you counted each fumbled pass as a missed shot, Thieman's shooting percentage would be a lot worse.stu said:
Looking at our shooting stats (for players who have attempted more than 10 shots) I see:
* Thiemann at .547, by far the best on the team. I think that's why he's playing 28 minutes per game
* Brown at .435, I think because he knows how to take only good shots
* Everyone else under .400, though Newell at .396 and Askew at .393 are close
* On threes Askew at .306, everyone else under .270
I'm waiting to see what Clayton can do.
Poor Lars. I really think you can't teach hands. On the other hand (no pun intended), I saw one play last night where Okafor ripped a rebound in the middle of 3 other guys. It's kind of a natural thing and something to look for in big men.Civil Bear said:I'm guessing if you counted each fumbled pass as a missed shot, Thieman's shooting percentage would be a lot worse.stu said:
Looking at our shooting stats (for players who have attempted more than 10 shots) I see:
* Thiemann at .547, by far the best on the team. I think that's why he's playing 28 minutes per game
* Brown at .435, I think because he knows how to take only good shots
* Everyone else under .400, though Newell at .396 and Askew at .393 are close
* On threes Askew at .306, everyone else under .270
I'm waiting to see what Clayton can do.
Correct, but that pertains to everyone. Current TO/FGA (for players with more than 10 FGA):Civil Bear said:I'm guessing if you counted each fumbled pass as a missed shot, Thieman's shooting percentage would be a lot worse.stu said:
Looking at our shooting stats (for players who have attempted more than 10 shots) I see:
* Thiemann at .547, by far the best on the team. I think that's why he's playing 28 minutes per game
* Brown at .435, I think because he knows how to take only good shots
* Everyone else under .400, though Newell at .396 and Askew at .393 are close
* On threes Askew at .306, everyone else under .270
I'm waiting to see what Clayton can do.
The problem with your stats is that Thiemen rarely gets attributed for the turnover on fumbled passes because he never technically had possession. Also, when he actually catches the pass, he shoots.stu said:
Correct, but that pertains to everyone. Current TO/FGA (for players with more than 10 FGA):
0.165 Newell
0.196 Alajiki
0.210 Kuany
0.214 Askew
0.233 Bowser
0.239 Thiemann
0.300 Okafor
0.365 Brown
0.688 Roberson
Thiemann is in the bottom half but closer to PF Alajiki and Kuany than to C Okafor.
Brown is better than this calculation indicates because he shoots so little and handles the ball so much.
Yup, that was about when I came to the conclusion he needed more of Lars' minutes.KoreAmBear said:Poor Lars. I really think you can't teach hands. On the other hand (no pun intended), I saw one play last night where Okafor ripped a rebound in the middle of 3 other guys. It's kind of a natural thing and something to look for in big men.Civil Bear said:I'm guessing if you counted each fumbled pass as a missed shot, Thieman's shooting percentage would be a lot worse.stu said:
Looking at our shooting stats (for players who have attempted more than 10 shots) I see:
* Thiemann at .547, by far the best on the team. I think that's why he's playing 28 minutes per game
* Brown at .435, I think because he knows how to take only good shots
* Everyone else under .400, though Newell at .396 and Askew at .393 are close
* On threes Askew at .306, everyone else under .270
I'm waiting to see what Clayton can do.
In such a case is the turnover attributed to the passer or to the team?Civil Bear said:
The problem with your stats is that Thiemen rarely gets attributed for the turnover on fumbled passes because he never technically had possession. Also, when he actually catches the pass, he shoots.
It goes to the player foolish enough to throw him a contested pass. Maybe if we could put electrodes under the eyelids of our guards they would stop doing it.stu said:In such a case is the turnover attributed to the passer or to the team?Civil Bear said:
The problem with your stats is that Thiemen rarely gets attributed for the turnover on fumbled passes because he never technically had possession. Also, when he actually catches the pass, he shoots.
I've said this before, but many turnovers are on the passer. Yes, Lars has poor hands, but players need to adjust, and too often they just stare him down before the pass to him. In last game, Brown and Lars were on the baseline and Brown dribbled the ball 7-8 times staring at Lars. When Brown passed the ball it was deflected. Brown got the loose ball in a broken play so it wasn't a turnover. Is that on Lars? (partly)Civil Bear said:It goes to the player foolish enough to throw him a contested pass. Maybe if we could put electrodes under the eyelids of our guards they would stop doing it.stu said:In such a case is the turnover attributed to the passer or to the team?Civil Bear said:
The problem with your stats is that Thiemen rarely gets attributed for the turnover on fumbled passes because he never technically had possession. Also, when he actually catches the pass, he shoots.
You can't teach hand size and shape, but there is ALOT that can be done about Lars problems with receiving the ball in the paint. Most of it deals with practice, training and speed of the game. And it takes time. Lots of time and repetition. This is not unique to Lars, but at this level, he came to Cal far behind many P12 level competitors - who probably started focusing on this issue in 3rd grade. I've seen lots of improvement from him over the last few years, but it seems like he has gone from a 2 to 6 (on a scale of 1 to 10), where most starting P12 big men are coming in as a Freshman at a 7 or 8 and improving to a 9 or 10 (think Andre).KoreAmBear said:Poor Lars. I really think you can't teach hands. On the other hand (no pun intended), I saw one play last night where Okafor ripped a rebound in the middle of 3 other guys. It's kind of a natural thing and something to look for in big men.Civil Bear said:I'm guessing if you counted each fumbled pass as a missed shot, Thieman's shooting percentage would be a lot worse.stu said:
Looking at our shooting stats (for players who have attempted more than 10 shots) I see:
* Thiemann at .547, by far the best on the team. I think that's why he's playing 28 minutes per game
* Brown at .435, I think because he knows how to take only good shots
* Everyone else under .400, though Newell at .396 and Askew at .393 are close
* On threes Askew at .306, everyone else under .270
I'm waiting to see what Clayton can do.
Honestly, have you been watching the games? Lars is terrible defensively. He can't guard a decent post man one on one, and now in his fourth year he still has no ability to defend a drive. To say Lars is in the right place is really inaccurate. A 7 foot center should have some ability to clog the middle but it ain't happening.HoopDreams said:
Okofor had his best game and agree he should be getting more PT, but can't agree he is better than Lars defensively (or offensively)
for one thing, Lars changes (and blocks a lot of shots, and is mostly in the right place. Okofor makes lots of mistakes defensively.
not a dig on Okofor as just a freshman
RedlessWardrobe said:Honestly, have you been watching the games? Lars is terrible defensively. He can't guard a decent post man one on one, and now in his fourth year he still has no ability to defend a drive. To say Lars is in the right place is really inaccurate. A 7 foot center should have some ability to clog the middle but it ain't happening.HoopDreams said:
Okofor had his best game and agree he should be getting more PT, but can't agree he is better than Lars defensively (or offensively)
for one thing, Lars changes (and blocks a lot of shots, and is mostly in the right place. Okofor makes lots of mistakes defensively.
not a dig on Okofor as just a freshman
RedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
This is entirely correct. I would only add that that Cal needs not just shooting, but we need a guard who can run offense or a mindset to look for the open shot, both by each player looking for it, and each player looking for a teammate who is more open than he himself is.calumnus said:
Both need to play, but the balance of minutes between them should depend on matchups. I also think playing them both at the same time should be an option.
Statistically, Lars is still our best player (of the the players who have gotten significant minutes). Part of that is his success against the smaller teams we play OOC. In conference, against guys his size but with more athleticism, he struggles and Okafor is relatively more effective. Part of it is we need to stop going to Lars on offense against teams with good interior defense. Of course, we would need another option on offense.
The bottom line is Lars vs. Okafor is not our biggest issue. This is not freshman and sophomore Lars vs. sophomore and junior Kelly where it was clear (at least to me, not to the Fox defenders) that Kelly needed to be playing the vast majority of the minutes.
This team desperately needs outside shooting.
According to the play-by-play account on the Calbears website, Lars started the 2nd half, and left the game with 11:30 minutes to go in the game, with Cal up by 13 points, and did not return. He was replaced by Okafor at that point, and Okafor left the game with 3:50 minutes to go in the game, with Cal up by 19 points. Neither Okafor nor Lars would return to the game, which is when Colorado made their huge comeback to get within 3 points, only to lose by 4 points at the end. What should be clear to all of us (especially Mr Intensity, the head guy in a suit and tie on the bench) is that Lars or Okafor, one or the other, MUST be in the lineup when we have a lead to protect at the end of a game. This team of ours has little experience being ahead in the score, and doing what we have to do to hold that lead. When both Lars and Okafor were out of the game at the same time, we came very close to losing that game.RedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
SFCityBear said:According to the play-by-play account on the Calbears website, Lars started the 2nd half, and left the game with 11:30 minutes to go in the game, with Cal up by 13 points, and did not return. He was replaced by Okafor at that point, and Okafor left the game with 3:50 minutes to go in the game, with Cal up by 19 points. Neither Okafor nor Lars would return to the game, which is when Colorado made their huge comeback to get within 3 points, only to lose by 4 points at the end. What should be clear to all of us (especially Mr Intensity, the head guy in a suit and tie on the bench) is that Lars or Okafor, one or the other, MUST be in the lineup when we have a lead to protect at the end of a game. This team of ours has little experience being ahead in the score, and doing what we have to do to hold that lead. When both Lars and Okafor were out of the game at the same time, we came very close to losing that game.RedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.HoopDreams said:
Okofor played very well offensively and rebounding. good hands. he's improving
defensely he missed some rotations leading to easy scores
Lars was dominant in the first half, but didn't play much past first 5 minutes of second half
thats because colorado coach saw lars dominate (and get in foul trouble) their two bigs so he changed strategy and went small. To match, fox also went small
good to have options based on matchupRedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
+/- tells a story, but not a complete storyCivil Bear said:Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.HoopDreams said:
Okofor played very well offensively and rebounding. good hands. he's improving
defensely he missed some rotations leading to easy scores
Lars was dominant in the first half, but didn't play much past first 5 minutes of second half
thats because colorado coach saw lars dominate (and get in foul trouble) their two bigs so he changed strategy and went small. To match, fox also went small
good to have options based on matchupRedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Of course, +/- doesn't tell the whole story, but it is particularly telling when the two players substitute for each other and do not share the court together.HoopDreams said:+/- tells a story, but not a complete storyCivil Bear said:
Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Braun had big praise for Lars. He also recognized how well Okafor played, but called him "raw". That's how I see him. Lots of potential and a college made body, but raw, especially on defense.
if you are saying Okofor is the better player overall?
not my eyeballs, but as I've said Okafor had two nice games and has potential. But he makes mistakes including two goal tending calls when the shots weren't going in.Civil Bear said:Of course, +/- doesn't tell the whole story, but it is particularly telling when the two players substitute for each other and do not share the court together.HoopDreams said:+/- tells a story, but not a complete storyCivil Bear said:
Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Braun had big praise for Lars. He also recognized how well Okafor played, but called him "raw". That's how I see him. Lots of potential and a college made body, but raw, especially on defense.
if you are saying Okofor is the better player overall?
Braun also said Lars has great hands when praising him. That is patently ridiculous. Despite having good free-throw numbers, Fox's choice to sit Lars down the stretch shows the lack of confidence in him to help break the press.
The eyeball test says ND has been the better player in the last two games. The stark +/- numbers back it up.
Civil Bear said:Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.HoopDreams said:
Okofor played very well offensively and rebounding. good hands. he's improving
defensely he missed some rotations leading to easy scores
Lars was dominant in the first half, but didn't play much past first 5 minutes of second half
thats because colorado coach saw lars dominate (and get in foul trouble) their two bigs so he changed strategy and went small. To match, fox also went small
good to have options based on matchupRedlessWardrobe said:
Gotta say that giving Okafor more minutes seemed to be beneficial to the team. Okafor definitely showed strong around the hoop and Lars seemed to be more effective when playing less minutes.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Do you think Braun could have been talking about the fine touch Lars has in his fingers when shooting the ball, with all the success he has shooting soft shots near the basket? Great shooters usually have fine touch in the fingertips.Civil Bear said:Of course, +/- doesn't tell the whole story, but it is particularly telling when the two players substitute for each other and do not share the court together.HoopDreams said:+/- tells a story, but not a complete storyCivil Bear said:
Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Braun had big praise for Lars. He also recognized how well Okafor played, but called him "raw". That's how I see him. Lots of potential and a college made body, but raw, especially on defense.
if you are saying Okofor is the better player overall?
Braun also said Lars has great hands when praising him. That is patently ridiculous. Despite having good free-throw numbers, Fox's choice to sit Lars down the stretch shows the lack of confidence in him to help break the press.
The eyeball test says ND has been the better player in the last two games. The stark +/- numbers back it up.
No, Braun wasn't nearly that specific. But if he were, I would downgrade my comment from patently ridiculous to just meh. .548 for a post player that rarely shoots from outside the paint is not that special.SFCityBear said:Do you think Braun could have been talking about the fine touch Lars has in his fingers when shooting the ball, with all the success he has shooting soft shots near the basket? Great shooters usually have fine touch in the fingertips.Civil Bear said:Of course, +/- doesn't tell the whole story, but it is particularly telling when the two players substitute for each other and do not share the court together.HoopDreams said:+/- tells a story, but not a complete storyCivil Bear said:
Lars was +3 for the game while Okofor was +16. The team was -15 for the 5:12 neither was on the floor.
In the Utah loss, Lars was -15 while ND was 0.
Braun had big praise for Lars. He also recognized how well Okafor played, but called him "raw". That's how I see him. Lots of potential and a college made body, but raw, especially on defense.
if you are saying Okofor is the better player overall?
Braun also said Lars has great hands when praising him. That is patently ridiculous. Despite having good free-throw numbers, Fox's choice to sit Lars down the stretch shows the lack of confidence in him to help break the press.
The eyeball test says ND has been the better player in the last two games. The stark +/- numbers back it up.