I doubt that Devin Askew makes us worse.

2,861 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by HoopDreams
Bearprof
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In various posts the narrative has emerged that Askew makes us worse. I realize that our two winning games were without him. I also agree that several players on the team (e.g. Joel Brown) seem very tentative in the games Askew plays in. But I've watched Askew play and it seems to me that he distributes and does not play hero ball, except to hunt his own shot when the clock is expiring which he absolutely should do. The question is why the others are so tentative when Askew is out there. I suspect that is Fox's doing, not Askew.
calumnus
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Bearprof said:

In various posts the narrative has emerged that Askew makes us worse. I realize that our two winning games were without him. I also agree that several players on the team (e.g. Joel Brown) seem very tentative in the games Askew plays in. But I've watched Askew play and it seems to me that he distributes and does not play hero ball, except to hunt his own shot when the clock is expiring which he absolutely should do. The question is why the others are so tentative when Askew is out there. I suspect that is Fox's doing, not Askew.


It is absolutely Fox, we saw the same with Shepherd and Bradley (one of the reasons he likes it at SDSU) and every Fox team I ever saw at Georgia. That said, With Clayton now available Askew will probably not be asked to fill that role, or only on a more limited basis.
bearister
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Absolutely on Fox. College players play in the manner directed by the coach, or they sit.
Askew is a good player. Perhaps Fox lacked confidence in the rest of the team and thought letting Askew dominate the offense provided the best chance to win (although there was no evidence to support that theory).

Now that the team has had its only 2 wins without Askew, Brown had 17 and 21 in those games, 2K had 16 and 11, Lars had 17 and 12, Newell had 9 and 13, and Clayton, shaking off two years of game rust, had 10 vs the Buffs, my guess is you will see Askew following a new set of directives from Fox.

I hope Askew feels well soon primarily for his own sake and secondarily for the team's. We need all hands on deck and we need his skills.
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HearstMining
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It'll be interesting to see if/how Fox makes the pieces fit. I just watched to Colorado game today and it seemed to me that several Cal players had breakout games: KK, Newell, Brown. Brown in particular played the game we've hoped he'd play at least since his junior year. Additionally, ND played some meaningful minutes. Might this be a turning point?
bearister
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Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.
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SFCityBear
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bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.
Well, another explanation might be injury, especially to Lars, or maybe exhaustion, and maybe not trusting the freshman to finish the game. One person who can answer why neither was inserted into the game is Coach Fox. And a competent press should have asked him, if they did not.
SFCityBear
calumnus
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bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.


Fox is pretty clearly prioritizes defensive match-ups for man defense. Having a big lead only made him more defensive minded. Coach K used to talk about how he loved to coach against guys that are predictable, that always sit a guy with 2 fouls in the first half, will always pull the big man that is playing well if you go small, always try to run clock until the end of the shot clock, allowing you to time a switch in defenses just before they are going to work a last second play….
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.


Fox is pretty clearly prioritizes defensive match-ups for man defense. Having a big lead only made him more defensive minded. Coach K used to talk about how he loved to coach against guys that are predictable, that always sit a guy with 2 fouls in the first half, will always pull the big man that is playing well if you go small, always try to run clock until the end of the shot clock, allowing you to time a switch in defenses just before they are going to work a last second play….
If a coach wants to be defensive minded, no matter if you are matching up with a small or a big team, you don't leave your only two rim-protectors on the bench, do you?
SFCityBear
calumnus
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SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.


Fox is pretty clearly prioritizes defensive match-ups for man defense. Having a big lead only made him more defensive minded. Coach K used to talk about how he loved to coach against guys that are predictable, that always sit a guy with 2 fouls in the first half, will always pull the big man that is playing well if you go small, always try to run clock until the end of the shot clock, allowing you to time a switch in defenses just before they are going to work a last second play….
If a coach wants to be defensive minded, no matter if you are matching up with a small or a big team, you don't leave your only two rim-protectors on the bench, do you?


I agree 100% I'd keep them in, though with the other team playing 5 out, you would have to play some variation of zone letting your rim protector be a rim protector. Some coaches just don't want to do that.
HearstMining
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bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.
Hey I'm struggling with every ounce of my being to be optimistic here. I'm staring at a coach who, with a team ranked 348th in 3-pt shooting percentage, insists on running a 4-Out offense, so when I see one good data point, I'm straining to project it into the future.

Regarding the discussion of whether Fox should have had Lars or ND in there at the end, during that last 5 minute stretch, Ruffin hit two 3pt shots and KJ Simpson hit three 3ptrs. It wasn't just poor interior defense that put the game in jeopardy.
RedlessWardrobe
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Just an observation, our half court offense has looked much better when Askew has not been in it. More flow, more players involved. This is not a slam on Askew, but Fox should make an adjustment when Askew is in the game that the ball should be more equally shared.
KoreAmBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Just an observation, our half court offense has looked much better when Askew has not been in it. More flow, more players involved. This is not a slam on Askew, but Fox should make an adjustment when Askew is in the game that the ball should be more equally shared.
I don't know if it is an Askew thing or a change in philosophy, but v. CU and parts of Utah, the boys seemed to look for relatively early offense and the best shot they could get. While that does not play into Fox' penchant to shorten the game, it helps the offensive efficiency. Every time we get down to less than 10 seconds and we initiate the half-court offense then, I know how that's going to go. My theory is that Fox didn't trust his guys, over-relied on Askew ("asked him to do too much"), and only now is seeing that they play better if given a little more freedom.
bearmanpg
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KoreAmBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Just an observation, our half court offense has looked much better when Askew has not been in it. More flow, more players involved. This is not a slam on Askew, but Fox should make an adjustment when Askew is in the game that the ball should be more equally shared.
I don't know if it is an Askew thing or a change in philosophy, but v. CU and parts of Utah, the boys seemed to look for relatively early offense and the best shot they could get. While that does not play into Fox' penchant to shorten the game, it helps the offensive efficiency. Every time we get down to less than 10 seconds and we initiate the half-court offense then, I know how that's going to go. My theory is that Fox didn't trust his guys, over-relied on Askew ("asked him to do too much"), and only now is seeing that they play better if given a little more freedom.
KAB, it would be nice if your theory is correct but I have a hard time believing Fox is "seeing" anything other than his retirement build up. If he hasn't figured it out in 4 years, what could possibly make you believe he has now "seen" the light. Until Fox is gone we are going to see the occasional outlier victory. Sorry, I ain't buying it.
bearister
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This is more of the players figuring it out than Fox figuring it out. Now that there are several players that have figured out how to score, they will take Fox along for the ride, whether he has it figured out or not.
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SFCityBear
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HearstMining said:

bearister said:

Well, we might pick up a couple of W's, but as SFCB pointed out, having Lars and Okafor both out of the game the last few minutes against the Buffs probably accounted for the monumental collapse that put us on the precipice of losing a game that we had a 21 point second half lead in.

That type of coach vapor lock is horrifying….. unless someone can offer another explanation for what happened at the end of that game.
Hey I'm struggling with every ounce of my being to be optimistic here. I'm staring at a coach who, with a team ranked 348th in 3-pt shooting percentage, insists on running a 4-Out offense, so when I see one good data point, I'm straining to project it into the future.

Regarding the discussion of whether Fox should have had Lars or ND in there at the end, during that last 5 minute stretch, Ruffin hit two 3pt shots and KJ Simpson hit three 3ptrs. It wasn't just poor interior defense that put the game in jeopardy.
You make a good point, but I'm still old school. Colorado got out-of -their-minds red-hot from three in that stretch. The average three point shot has a tiny percentage above one-out-of-three chance of dropping while the average two point shot has a one-out-of-two chance of dropping. The practically wide open layup has a much better chance than that of going in the basket, maybe an 80-90% chance. And it was Colorado's practically wide open layups that really stuck in my craw.
SFCityBear
SFCityBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Just an observation, our half court offense has looked much better when Askew has not been in it. More flow, more players involved. This is not a slam on Askew, but Fox should make an adjustment when Askew is in the game that the ball should be more equally shared.
You make a very good point. I have felt from day one that Askew is our best scorer, the only player we have who has the best chance to score by himself, or make a play, from anywhere on the court, if he has the ball in his hands. Sort of a poor man's Tyrone Wallace, who could do all that, except that Askew has a three point shot in his repertoire, and Ty didn't. Ty was better at finding the open teammate. Fox's problem has been what to do with Brown, who had been the point guard in previous seasons. Fox has experimented with Askew at point guard, so he gets more touches, but with the emergence of the very experienced Clayton, Fox now has the luxury of having 3 men who can play point guard, and with the fine scoring of Brown with Askew out of the lineup for a few games, Fox now has the option of moving Askew to a shooting guard, which I think is where he belongs. The team might run better team offense this way, and Askew will still get his points, if he does not have point responsibilities all game long. Add to this group, Wrenn Robinson, whom calumnus has said is a great three-point shooter, then, on paper, Fox will have a two-deep set of competent guards with offensive skills. Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense. Of course, everyone has to remain healthy, and goodness knows we have had enough injuries to have used up our quota for a while. As for Fox, I only hope that he is thinking of moving Askew to shooting guard, or all these words mean nothing.
SFCityBear
stu
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SFCityBear said:

... Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense...
I think I've also seen Bowser playing a bit at guard where his defense looked fine. But neither Bowser nor Roberson are shooting well and Roberson needs to reduce his turnovers.
bearchamp
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This is critical of Askew. Regardless of Fox's "vision", if Askew made his teammates better, Fox would have accommodate that skill. Askew has all the physical abilities to be very good, but doesn't show the mentality to win a team game.
Bearprof
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bearchamp said:

This is critical of Askew. Regardless of Fox's "vision", if Askew made his teammates better, Fox would have accommodate that skill. Askew has all the physical abilities to be very good, but doesn't show the mentality to win a team game.


And how exactly is this deficient mentality manifested? What good things doesn't he do? And what bad things does he do?
bearchamp
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Askew doesn't move the ball. He dribbles for no apparent purpose. He appears to have no confidence in his teammates. He pounds the ball until the shot clock is short and then calls his own number for some hero ball. None of this is conducive to "team" basketball.
oskidunker
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bearchamp said:

Askew doesn't move the ball. He dribbles for no apparent purpose. He appears to have no confidence in his teammates. He pounds the ball until the shot clock is short and then calls his own number for some hero ball. None of this is conducive to "team" basketball.
He sometimes passes to Brown who is wide open and wont shoot.. Maybe Clayton there makes a difference.
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bearister
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bearchamp said:

Askew doesn't move the ball. He dribbles for no apparent purpose. He appears to have no confidence in his teammates. He pounds the ball until the shot clock is short and then calls his own number for some hero ball. None of this is conducive to "team" basketball.


As I said earlier, I presume he was following orders. After 2 wins without him and multiple guys in double figures, I'm assuming he will be given new marching orders. I guess we will find out Friday if he suits up against Furd.
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KoreAmBear
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stu said:

SFCityBear said:

... Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense...
I think I've also seen Bowser playing a bit at guard where his defense looked fine. But neither Bowser nor Roberson are shooting well and Roberson needs to reduce his turnovers.
Bowser is playing within himself these days, but I think he needs to start expanding his game a little. The only shot he will take now are wide-open threes. He does seem very athletic judging by the takes (a bit reckless) he had his freshman year. If he can develop a little mid-range game and even some forays to the rack when the lanes open up, that would help this team.
Grrrrah76
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I just amazed there are a few of you that still actually follow and watch Cal basketball. I feel bad for the athletes, but this has been a disaster for several years. Any progress with this team will be used to keep Fox, which has clearly been a poor fit and that's being kind.
HoopDreams
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KoreAmBear said:

stu said:

SFCityBear said:

... Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense...
I think I've also seen Bowser playing a bit at guard where his defense looked fine. But neither Bowser nor Roberson are shooting well and Roberson needs to reduce his turnovers.
Bowser is playing within himself these days, but I think he needs to start expanding his game a little. The only shot he will take now are wide-open threes. He does seem very athletic judging by the takes (a bit reckless) he had his freshman year. If he can develop a little mid-range game and even some forays to the rack when the lanes open up, that would help this team.
Bowser does have a nice mid-range jumper
KoreAmBear
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HoopDreams said:

KoreAmBear said:

stu said:

SFCityBear said:

... Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense...
I think I've also seen Bowser playing a bit at guard where his defense looked fine. But neither Bowser nor Roberson are shooting well and Roberson needs to reduce his turnovers.
Bowser is playing within himself these days, but I think he needs to start expanding his game a little. The only shot he will take now are wide-open threes. He does seem very athletic judging by the takes (a bit reckless) he had his freshman year. If he can develop a little mid-range game and even some forays to the rack when the lanes open up, that would help this team.
Bowser does have a nice mid-range jumper
He does? I haven't seen it during a game.
HoopDreams
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KoreAmBear said:

HoopDreams said:

KoreAmBear said:

stu said:

SFCityBear said:

... Add a fifth guard in Roberson, and you have another good defender to go with Brown, when you need more defense...
I think I've also seen Bowser playing a bit at guard where his defense looked fine. But neither Bowser nor Roberson are shooting well and Roberson needs to reduce his turnovers.
Bowser is playing within himself these days, but I think he needs to start expanding his game a little. The only shot he will take now are wide-open threes. He does seem very athletic judging by the takes (a bit reckless) he had his freshman year. If he can develop a little mid-range game and even some forays to the rack when the lanes open up, that would help this team.
Bowser does have a nice mid-range jumper
He does? I haven't seen it during a game.
He doesn't shoot often, but two of his made baskets are on mid-range jumpers. He got to his spot, pulled up with a balanced shot. Very smooth. With his length, it's a good shot for him
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